Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Link to NY Daily News article which contains a picture of the Wagner BEFORE being encapsulated by PSA. Unfortunately, the online article only has a picture of the book the author is peddling. Looking at the picture in the paper, it is obviously difficult to discern whether or not the card has been trimmed as reported.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2007/06/24/2007-06-24_just_cant_cut_it.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2007/06/24/2007-06-24_just_cant_cut_it.html</a>

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Can you provide a scan of this photo depicted in this NY newspaper ?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ted, no, it's just in the print edition and as a newspaper 'picture' is kind of blurry.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>Man it sure puts some information (background) out there on the card...cool

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>Thanks Jeff for the post. Intriging.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>I just read the Daily News article and the photo they show is useless. The original photo and copies derived therefrom were likely of poor resolution and further reproduction on newsprint makes it impossible to tell anything. A hi res scan of the first generation photo would be helpful but I doubt it will ever surface in that form. And how do you know you are looking at THE CARD anyway in the photo? There's some kind of line going down the right side border that could be an artifact from reproduction but if on the card itself looks to make it tough to display without it being apparent to the naked eye. It's shown in a Lucite holder and they don't show the back of the card so frankly it could be a reprint. <br /><br />What's interesting is the book is getting press in the local NY papers (expected in the Daily News due to the author) but Newsday had the book review already and I think there was mention in their sports section as well a couple of weeks ago. I have to check the Times today but haven't seen anything there so far. I refuse to read the Post so that's an unknown. I presume some other papers have published reviews across the country.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Jeff--Is it the Sunday News, and, if so, what section?<br /><br />Thanks---Jay

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I just picked up my copy and it is on page 60 of the main section.<br /><br />While the card pictured is clearly poorly cut and looks particularly misshapen in some areas, the picture is blurry and the three enlargements aren't showing me much. Assuming all these photos are real and not photoshopped, you can clearly see that the Wagner was cut poorly from the sheet and looks different today. Again, that's assuming everything in the article is true.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Donald Miller</b><p>Hello,<br /> It seems as if the conversation is always about this card when others are known to exist. Maybe this particular card has been doctored in some way or another.(trimmed from a sheet) If I had the money to buy the T206 Wagner I would not take a chance on this particular card. I would instead try to acquire the second best example. Does anyone know what that example would grade or what is the second best card graded and does anyone know who owns that card?<br /><br />Don(curious) in Dakota

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>One of our board members owns what would quite likely be the next best Wagner. Interestingly, it has never been graded. It would, however, likely grade a 5. He has chosen not to holder it, and I doubt he will step forward and identify himself.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p> <br />PSA Population Report:<br /><br />1911 T206<br />NAME COMPANY VARIETY 1-2 3-4 5 6 7 7Q 8 8Q 9 9Q 10 TOTAL <br /> <br /> <br /><br />HONUS WAGNER 22 4 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 27 <br /><br />

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That population report makes it look like there is one 6 and no 8's, but I believe there is one 5 and one 8. The graded 5 is close to the raw one, but not quite as sharp (so I've been told).

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Yes, that is correct one 5 and one 8. Not sure what happened to the spacing when I posted previously.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>The PSA 5 T206 Wagner is listed on the PSA set registry in the Scott D Ireland collection. He's got a PSA 7 Plank too.<br /><br />The current SGC population report shows 2 examples graded at SGC 40 (equivalent to PSA 3 VG), with none higher.<br /><br />I don't know what the highest graded examples by GAI or any other service are.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Can I also assume there were 22 graded PSA 1 and 4 graded PSA 2? Are there any 3's or 4's?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Donald Miller</b><p> My point has always been that rather than going after a card with a lot of question marks,I would much rather get the #2 card available at the bargain????price of say 1 million than buy the questionable card. If the truth be known, the#2 card might actually be the #1 card!!!!<br /><br />Don

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Population report shows as 1-2 as 22. 3-4 as 4. It doesn't seperate them for some reason.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Donald Miller</b><p>Barry,<br /> I think the report means there are 22 graded either a 1 or 2 and 4 graded a 3 or 4 and 1 graded a 5.<br /><br />Don

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Donald- I can assure you that the owner of the so-called #2 has long contended that. Of course he is a little biased, too, but that is natural.<br /><br />Edited to add why do they combine two grades in the population report?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Richard L.</b><p>I always wondered the same thing about combined grades? They also have "the monster" in alphabetical order by first names? Imagine if phone books were published that way.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>aaron seefeldt</b><p>Barry and all,<br />About 6 or 7 years ago I was invited to a prominent collector's house to view his goodies.<br /><br />While we were talking he put a card in my hands and when I looked at it, I was absolutely blown away. It was a t206 Wagner PSA 6. Full borders, no evidence of trimming, etc. <br /><br />I've seen the PSA 8 Wagner several times and in my opinion (note: opinion), the PSA 6 Wagner is the most valuable card in the hobby.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Here's the picture as best as I could do:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1182703146.JPG"> <br><br>Frank

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i have the copeland collection sotheby's catalog at home, from the 1991 gretzky sale...i will check the scan in the catalog, to see if there is any info for the discussion...

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Aaron- if you saw a PSA 6 Wagner, and I'm sure you did, why doesn't it show up in the pop report?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Anyone have a scan of the current version to post for before and after? Because if that slant cut on the bottom border is no longer in the PSA 8 version, and it is the same card, my mind will probably be made up. <br /><br />J

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>aaron seefeldt</b><p>Barry,<br />If I told you who owned it, you would understand.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joann- I can say with certainty that the card pictured in the Daily News is cut differently from the one in the PSA 8 holder.<br /><br />What I can't say with certainty is that they are both the same card. But my hunch is they are.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Aaron- it would make no difference to me who owned it; what it proves is that the pop report can and will leave out pertinent information.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>I got a copy of the News. Interesting, if you measure the ratio of the size of the right side border to the bottom border in the newspaper photo and compare that with the same ratio in the book cover "after" photo it certainly appears to me that the card has become thinner.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>aaron seefeldt</b><p>Pop reports are meaningless to begin with. I know several people who submit the same card numerous times until the highest possible grade is achieved.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Two points:<br /><br />1) The card in that newspaper photo could not both need trimming and be the McNall/Gretzky Wagner in my opinion. Though it is near impossible to tell if there is wavyness from the photo, one can get a general sense of the size of the boarders. That card is not oversized and if it were trimmed further, I think it would be undersized. The holdered PSA 8 is not undersized.<br /><br />2) Alan Ray seems to resent that Bill Mastro has made a lot of money off the card and bargained hard to get it from Ray at the best price/deal possible. Yet he simultaneously claims that Mastro must have trimmed the card to sell it as "mint" while Ray himself sent out the word to a nearby show that he had a "mint" Wagner to sell. It was upon hearing this that Bill Mastro responding and went to go buy the card. Something is not adding up.<br /><br />JimB

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Jim--I think you are wrong. When I measure the PSA8 card has thinner side borders.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Alan Ray is really upset with himself for being bullied into making a bad deal. He claimed he needed money, and in that situation people often make poor decisions. But at the time, 25K was still an awful lot of money for a baseball card.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />You were in the grading room and measured the Wagner? <br /><br />Greg

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Greg--I assume that you can read, so read what I wrote. Compare the measurements in the newspaper picture to those of the card pictured on the cover of the book.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p><img src="http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9480/thewagnerphoto2vk6.jpg"> <img src="http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3741/thewagnerxq3.jpg">

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Zinn</b><p>If the above are in fact "before and after" pics there should be no doubt in anyones mind that the card has been trimmed. Case closed.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Assuming those pics are the same card, no doubt the card was cut down - just look at the left and right borders. Ok, the card is now worth 235K instead of 2.35 mil. Can I buy it please?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>I predict the card will not sell for $2 million or more again. Anyone else?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I tend to agree. Starting to remind me of McGwire's 3 mil record-breaking HR ball...

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>I was thinking the same thing. That ball is worth maybe $100K today.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p>Assuming that both pics show "The Card", the bottom and/or the right edges of the encapsulated version look to have been trimmed. Can one of you computer-savvy guys enlarge the encapsulated Wagner and superimpose it onto the newspaper pic? (Where is Wonka when you need him?) If this could be done, I bet you would see a lot of white showing near the bottom right border.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You can see the bottom right corner is bowed without even superimposing it...plus you would have white on white so it would be hard to tell.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I agree with Barry: no need to superimpose. The naked eye can see this one pretty easily. But how do we know each picture is of the same card? Because the Daily News says so?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That was my earlier point. But what else can it be- someone else's NR MT Wagner?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>The middle left border of the newspaper Wagner appears to have a print blemish which is absent on the graded copy?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br />I would still like to see a superimposition to know WHERE it was trimmed (if in fact both pics are "The Card").

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I feel confident they are both the same card. Maybe Wonka can do it as he seems to be our most gifted photoshop guy.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p>Hardly a scientific or conclusive mirror image I know. Though he does look a tad askew.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1182730633.JPG">

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>appear ALOT closer to the bottom of the image border than the suposed pre-graded shot? I don't think that trimming the bottom of the white border could exactly move the image itself down....?<br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br /><br />Edited to flip flop two words.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Aaron writes of seeing a PSA 6 Wagner. He also says that if he told us the owner, we would understand why it is not in the pop reports. Not being a collector of slabbed cards, I'm unfamiliar with how the pop reports work. Specifically, does the card owner have the option to tell PSA to exclude it from the reports? If the answer is yes, then no real mystery. The owner is choosing to keep a low profile, which he/she has every right to do. If though PSA's policy is to include all slabbed cards in its pop reports, then how can this one be excluded? Especially being a PSA 6 Wagner, it's not like people would not notice the exclusion.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Corey, the owner of a graded card does not have the option to keep the card out of the pop report. However, as any person who has ever dealt with the Registry knows, it is COMPLETELY filled with errors. Shockingly so. And the incredible thing is that a mistake on a pop report for a low pop card of, say, one or two in number, can translate into a difference in value of thousands. And no one will ever know what the true pop is for a card.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Doesn't the 'G' in both examples present differently?<br />The 'pre-slab' shot has a G that curls down at the top of the letter, while the PSA8 G finishes more or less straight across at the top of the letter....<br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br /><br />Edited to add: The U also seems different in each example. On the 'pre-slab' the two sides of the U letter seem equal thickness, and on the PSA8 it looks like one side is thick and the other thinner..<br /><br />

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys, <br /><br />Don't kid yourself. The Card will sell again for a lot more than 2.35 million. The Card has only gone up 100% in the last 7 years, or so. The reason is the buyer knew the book would come out soon and did not want to pay too much. <br /><br />It takes at least a year to write and publish a book, even members of this board knew that a controversial book was coming out soon after the purchase...it is not a stretch to believe the Buyer of the Card also knew. He underpaid for the card. Other T206 Hall of Famers went up a lot more than a 100% during the last 7 years or so. It is likely the Seller also knew about the book and did not want to chance unfavorable publicity by having a public auction so a private deal was made. I'm just speculating but it makes a lot of sense to me.<br /><br />Peter

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Thanks for the response, Jeff. <br /><br />I will say though that excluding the only known PSA 6 from the pop reports is one hell of an omission. What's also strange about it is one would think PSA would have a strong economic incentive to show it because having such a card in their holder (as opposed to a competitor's) would be quite a plum. Very strange!!

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"The Card will sell again for a lot more than 2.35 million. ... The reason is the buyer knew the book would come out soon and did not want to pay too much."<br /><br />I'm just going to let those words sit there for a while.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Indications are both parties knew the Card was coming out and the 2.35 million represents a cautious price by both Buyer and Seller. Notoriety has never hurt the Gretzky/McNall Wagner. Bruce McNall's legal problems had little effect on the value of the Wagner. It is now the only card for which an entire book has been written about. I see the value of the Wagner going substantially up.<br /><br />Peter

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Peter, <br /><br />My friend, your posts get seemingly more bizarre. How can $2.35 million be considered cautious if it is a record price? How can any bad press positvely effect the reputation and potential value of this card? It what hemisphere does the legal problems of a person affect a baseball card that person owns? Who cares? An altered piece means a <b>heck</b> of a lot more. With the book and articles like these going to the mainstream, it certainly can not help at all. How do you know that the party who bought this card knew a book would come out on this?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>In Peter's world, the fact that a book has come out which explains that the card is trimmed is equal in terms of impact on the card's value as the business reputation of one of the card's buyers.<br /><br />Mouth agape, again.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Daniel raises good points about whether the newspaper photo is even a photo of the Gretzky Wagner. I think we would need a high res scan of the photo to begin to a decent comparative evaluation. At this point, I think the best we can say is that the evidence is inconclusive. I hope that whoever allowed for a newsprint copy to be printed would be kind enough to post a scan here (or somewhere).<br />JimB<br /><br />edited for spelling

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>That card will continue to sell for higher prices as long as it is not proven counterfeit. Trimming is just something us baseball card nerds worry about, for this card it is irrevelant.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>It's relavant enough for a major national newspaper to report on it, so yes, it is important. Especially if it is the card that defines the hobby.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Certainly, we have dissected the book. It would not be difficult for us and the owners of the Card to write a scathing rebuttal. It will never be proven that the Gretzky Wagner was trimmed. All this furor will just add to the Wagner's mystique.<br /><br />Peter

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The status of the Gretzky Wagner has changed in one significant way: in the past, the rumors of it being trimmed were just background noise; now it has become headline news (in a tabloid kind of way). It may not affect the new owner's feeling about it one way or the other, but it has now entered new territory in terms of public perception.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Instead of the trimming being more of a hush matter and focus being on the beauty of the card now all the focus will be on its suspected alteration, and perhaps rightly so if that "beauty" was acheived by a razor blade and ruler. I dont see how, in anyones mind, the card would sell for more if sold today. And some say any press is good press, but i dont think this is one of those situations.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>Here are pairs of before and after pics, side by side and about the same size. They look like the same card to me, with slight trimming on the side borders of the encapsulated one. But I admit, it's hard to be sure...<br /><br />I expect the current owner will hold on to the card until he decides to move on to some other collectible/investment, at which time he will need to find a buyer who will pay more than $2.35 million for it. I expect such a person would exist at that time, despite all the controversy; it only takes one...<br /><br /><img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/wagners2.jpg"><br /><img src="http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r143/ebrehm1/wagners.jpg"><br /><br /><br />

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>The "U" in "PITTSBURG" looks taller in the Daily News article than on THE CARD. By a lot actually. I have to question if they both portray the same card.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Do you remember the myth about how Honus Wagner had this card pulled from the T-206 print run because he didn't want kids to think that smoking was cool.<br /><br />Later on, I believe that his daughter said that the story wasn't true and the real reason was because Honus wasn't compensated for using his picture.<br /><br />At any rate the debunking of that myth didn't hurt the Card. Neither will this controversy regarding the possible trimming. Remember, it will never be conclusively established that the Card was trimmed. Do you really think that Mastro or PSA will come forward with the truth. I doubt it.<br /><br />However, they might come back with a scathing rebuttal.<br /><br />Peter

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If the card pictured in the Daily News article is not the same one in the PSA slab, then what exactly is it?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Forehead shading looks different too, but it could be an issue of the newsprint. We would really need to see a good scan of the photo to begin to make a determination.<br />JimB

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>that feeds into the P also looks to meet at a different point in each card. It runs more at a 45 degree angle in the PSA8 and enters the P above the horizontal line section of the letter, while in the Daily News image the crease sort of goes horizontal as it meets with the letter and enters the P at exactly the middle portion of the horizontal stroke.....<br /><br />Did I make any sense at all...???<br /><br /><br />Daniel

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Also, the jersey fold on the PSA 8 coming down from above stops above the P and on the other card it comes down below the top fo the P. I also do not see any black border line between the orange and the border on the newsprint card. If I were a betting man, I would bet the newsprint card is not the same as the PSA 8. It may well not even be a photo of an authentic Wagner at all.<br />JimB

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If it's not the same card it is journalism at its sleaziest.<br /><br />That's why I read the New York Times. They are saints! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>FYI - The NY Daily News has updated the story with color photos of the card in "original" shape. Enjoy...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1182804820.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1182804832.JPG">

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Good point, Peter. The debunking of the fable that Honus was against smoking -- as opposed to him wanting more cash for his likeness being used -- is certainly as significant to the value of a card as the possibility that it may be trimmed. I don't know how I could have missed that.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Perhaps that would answer some questions if someone can identify the manufacturer...

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Whatever Jeff just said, I agree.

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I know you are only the messenger here but those are crappy looking color pictures, at best, that the Daily News put out. They don't even look like a real Wagner to me at all. I am surprised they don't have blue eyes. The black and white ones were better...though far from perfect. Sometimes I think they need to leave well enough alone....Most veterans believe it was cut from a sheet and probably trimmed after that.....and that is what our poll showed most believe, if I remember correctly.....Thanks for helping show the photos though....<br /><br />edited as I was mistaking on which paper..sorry about that...<br />

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It's the Daily News, not the Times.<br /><br />It is interesting how the News was able to make this new discovery just a month or so after the book was released. Coincidental, or just fortuitous timing?

Picture of Wagner PSA 8 before grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>This is the best I could do. Maybe others could do better. The photo really sucks.<br /><br /><img src="http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8749/thewagnerpsa8cut2bu4.jpg"> <img src="http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4900/thewagneroriginalphoto2dp7.jpg">