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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Hey Guys,<br /><br />I have read with interest many of your comments about our write-ups. Additionally, a good customer of ours provided some very credible feedback of certain lots where the write-ups in his estimation crossed the line. I don't choose to debate it here but I would like ot offer some comments.<br /><br />First, it is important to note that when these comments were brought to my attention earlier this year much of the June Classic was pretty much put to bed so any reaction would not show in full force until this summer.<br /><br />Second, this body in in the minority. Many of our customers who admittedly are not as advanced in their knowledge as the collectors on this formum love the detailed historical write-ups. A number have even indicated it is what draws them to the auctions and makes them take things to the next level. You guys are great customers whom I value but you do not represent a majority of the spend in this great hobby of ours. It is my job to ascertain the needs of all our customers when deciding how to produce catalogs. If it was just you guys it would save us a ton of money as a large image and short desciption would suffice.<br /><br />Third, we have listened. I agree that when detailed even flamboyant write-ups cloud condition descriptions that is problematic. It is not appropriate to let the positive attributes of a particular lot cloud specific problems with cards that need to be disclosed. Case in point "vintage remnants of album removal" is "back damage" no matter how you slice it.<br /><br />In short we will still differenctiate ourselves with supperior artistic design, images and historical write-ups when assembling our event catalogs...on the other hand we will work diligently to ensure that is seperate and destinct from describing the condition of individual cards and card lots.<br /><br />Hope this helps clarify our position.<br /><br />All the best,<br />Doug
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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>Hi Doug, always great to hear from you. I agree with both sides of this topic. I think the descriptions are just to long and have to much fluff in them. I think both sides can be serviced with less verbage. I will be sending you money soon, as the next auction is around the corner.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hi Doug- We all agree the detailed historic information is crucial and in no way would anybody suggest you take that out, regardless how long the text might be.<br /><br />But the sentences could be made a lot easier to read and everybody would be well served, both Mastro Auctions and the customers who enjoy studying the catalogs.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Can someone interpret what Doug said for me? It was written much like the Mastro auction descriptions.
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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>That was good Jeff!<br /><br />I will type slower this time :-><br /><br />On one hand the descriptions in many cases will be long and detailed as we believe that is what the majority of our customers have come to appreaciate and expect......<br /><br />On the other hand will work hard to keep the condition composites/descriptions clear and concise....not clouded by the flamboyant descriptions of why buying our lots are akin to solving world hunger.<br /><br />Hope that helps.<br /><br />Doug<br />
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I tend to like the long descriptions on lots that I am interested in - which are usually few and far between since I am mainly interested in specific photos and memorabilia....the more info the better.<br /><br />But how much of a description do you need for a 1914 cracker jack card? I suppose that's where all the flowery fluff is not needed nor appreciated.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Thanks, Doug. After all, I'm not as intelligent or as educated as you are. <br /><br />Perhaps instead of discussing your puffery you could simply focus on accurately describing the cards you are selling and accurately indicating the alterations (excuse me, "preparation") you've done on them (or have been done on the cards prior to getting to you). In addition, real damage to the cards should be disclosed instead of downplaying it in order that the bids will be higher. I've noticed that any failure to accurately describe card damage has been in downplaying, rather than overplaying, the damage. Must just be a coincidence. <br /><br />Somehow I suspect these issues are more important to the Network 54 group than the used car salesman language that is often used in Mastro auctions.<br /><br />Oh and before I forget -- <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Hi Doug,<br /><br />I am more of a picture guy. I never was the person who said I got Playboy for the articles. I digress, sorry. Rather than altering what many or some call flamboyant descriptions, I would love to see more pictures of cards from lots as well as larger images. Absent my coming out to Chicago to preview each auction I am generally bidding based on limited scans and fairly small ones at that. In many instances it has prevented me from bidding higher.<br /><br />Thanks for listening.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />Greg<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i agree...as amazing as the Mastro Catalogs are, i would like to see less verbage and larger/more images of certain lots. all the fluffy romance, i can do without, let's just get down to brass.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think it's important to distinguish between a great historical artifact and a Pete Rose rookie.<br /><br />The artifact needs all the information you can provide for it; bidders expect that.<br /><br />But with a 1963 Pete Rose, there is actually a law that says you are permitted to be succinct. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>A picture is worth a thousand words.<br><br>Frank
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Doug, I think what you are describing is hopefully the best of both worlds for folks. I like both the detailed descriptions and "some" of the puffery. If you are saying that ya'll are looking at having the long winded (and many times entertaining) write up about the history of the lot and the importance it has in the hobby and then the next paragraph is a detailed, extremely accurate description of the faults of the condition of the card/lot, then everyone should be happy. Also for expensive lots or premium lots the front/ back scans need to be there and very large.....just my 2 cents....and btw, I fully understand you will never, ever make everyone happy. good luck and thanks for coming on and giving your view of a much discussed situation...Almost NO large auction house principals would do that.....regards
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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>obviously i would want to hear more on the history, condition and provenance of a Lou Gehrig Jersey and less about how the corners of a PSA 9 Ted Williams could cut steak...
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Cut steak...it's time for another NYC Dinner Thread. I'm up for steak.<br /><br />You see how threads naturally digress?
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Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>Well, I am just a T-bone kinda guy. Love that T-bone.<br /><br />Now back to our regularly scheduled topic . .<br />What Leon said.<br /><br />edited to undigress
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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>barry, i was trying to get another NYC Dinner on the books, anyway...would actually be cool if you could join us, Doug...will you be in NYC anytime soon?
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Last night I went to Masa in the Time Warner building for my anniversary. Best meal that I've ever had in America, a once in a lifetime opportunity. Now how about we have the NYC Dinner Thread Dinner III there? Otherwise, Peter Lugers or Mortons?
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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i heard masa is good...i wouldn't mind spending some coin on a nice meal...<br /><br />although, i have not been to Luger's yet. we can discuss offline, don't want to side-track Doug's thread too much.
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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>a must have for home made "TAMALES". Who needs New yuk ?
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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>It seems to me there are three types of information in Mastro descriptions: the puffery, the historical info, and the condition info. Obviously the latter two are the most important, but the first has never really bothered me so much. Sometimes I even find it amusing, though it is not what guides my bidding decisions. REA tends to focus on the historical info (and condition) and I generally find their catalogs to be more informative. I have not compared, but it seems like there used to be more of the historical information in your catalogs than there has been in recent years.<br />JimB
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Luger's would be great but you need a reservation a month in advance and I read that the price of beef will be skyrocketing. I never heard of Masa but I vote for something inexpensive and below 42nd Street (even my Brooklyn neighborhood is loaded with great places).<br /><br />Okay, I don't want to continue off topic. I'm done for now.
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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>one more O/T post...<br /><br />jeff- have you been down to the Waverly Inn yet in the west village? what a scene, good luck getting a table.
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>A step in the right direction. Now if you will start listing the "clean up" and "improvements" that have been done to a lot. Double checking basic info on cards would be a good thing too. The whole m101-5 Thorpe situation is inexcusable for a major auction house and makes you look like a bunch of eBay hacks.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>I would like for Mastro to spend as much time describing the faults of the card as they do the puffing the positives. I want to know about creases, paperloss, wrinkles, markings, etc. When I buy a $10,000.00 card, it really is the only thing I am concerned about. I can see the edges and the color in the scan, but I may not be able to see creases and markings. The Wagner Mother's Bread is a great example of Mastro overlooking the problems with a card. They did go back and change the description, but only after someone brought it to their attention. Anyone who looked at the card could tell it had a crease through the middle and the card. I beleive that if you are going to list the positives you should list the negatives, or don't say anything at all and let the grade of the card speak for itself, otherwise it's a used car salesman pitch. I want honesty! Is that asking too much?
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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Hey Jeff,<br /><br />First of all I doubt if I am as educated or as intelligent as you....two cases in point #1 I sell baseball cards for a living and #2 I have no idea how you do those nice smiley faces...I still go with three key strokes :-> (is it that insert object button?). <br /><br />Regarding your comments.....let me break down my responses to each of your phrases:<br /><br />"Perhaps instead of discussing your puffery" - They are mutually exclusive...I can still "market" the cards as long as I describe them properly<br /><br />"you could simply focus on accurately describing the cards you are selling and accurately indicating the alterations (excuse me, "preparation") you've done on them (or have been done on the cards prior to getting to you)." - I agree completely. We will accurately describe the cards we sell and detail any alterations that we have knowledge of. I actually believe we do that today as evidenced by the fact that we have minimal card grading complaints or returns.<br /><br />"In addition, real damage to the cards should be disclosed instead of downplaying it in order that the bids will be higher. I've noticed that any failure to accurately describe card damage has been in downplaying, rather than overplaying, the damage. Must just be a coincidence. " - I agree we have at times fallen short on this point. We are making real changes in our process to avoid this in the future.<br /><br />I hope this is responsive to your questions.<br /><br />All the best,<br />Doug<br />
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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>How about accurate set descriptions such as, "We have cherry-picked the best cards and have submitted them to PSA for grading. The rest are not representative of what you see slabbed here. In fact, a couple of the raw ones may have been rejected by PSA on our submission, but look near mint"?</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Doug, when you say you will completely disclose any alterations, I think to be clear you may wish to define your terms because what some consider alterations many don't. For example, is pressing down a corner an alteration? Taking out a surface wrinkle? Not to open a can o' worms but people do want to know, I think.
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Peter, excellent point. Previous posts by Doug have shown that some things that Mastro doesn't consider alterations, other do and this is something certainly needs to be made perfectly clear so that there is no misunderstanding.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p><I>"We will accurately describe the cards we sell and detail any alterations that we have knowledge of."</I><br /><br />I echo Peter's question: will you detail corner pressing and erasing?<br><br>Frank
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Doug, thanks for responding.<br /><br />And Peter is correct: disclosing alterations is well and good as long as Mastro's defintion of 'alteration' is the same as the rest of ours. And while some of us may tend to disagree on whether, say, an erasure of a stray pencil mark is considered alteration, why not just disclose everything and let the bidder decide? The failure to fully disclose all of this information clearly is designed to increase bids under, in my mind, false pretense. Considering the size of Mastro's business and the fact that it has no real competitor, what could possibly be your problem with full disclosure?
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>This is an excerpt from a prior post by Doug; I have cut and paste with no changes his full response to a question concerning "acceptable" practices. I don't know if this list is coextensive with the way Doug defines what are "alterations" and what are not for purposes of disclosure.<br /><br />"3)What will Mastronet and its employees do (if anything) to improve the condition of cards that are consigned to it? Please adress the following<br /><br />Let me first react to the general question. Mastro Auctions will take raw cards and prepare them to grade. In my mind what this includes are practices that are accepted by grading services suck as laying down corners that may have "flipped" during handling, removing wax residue from the surface of a card and pressing out a light wrinkle that does not break the surface of the card. <br /><br />Here are my reactions to the following processes....<br /><br />--cleaning card--such as taking glue off<br /><br />I have no problem with removing paste that remains from album removal especialy vintage paste that rarely damages the surface of the card.<br /><br />--taking out creases<br /><br />I have no problem with taking out light creases or surface wrinkles that do not break the surface.<br /><br />--erasing pencil marks<br /><br />I have no problem erasing "light" pencil marks. I believe dark ones impact the surface of the cards and therefore are better off left alone.<br /><br />--pressing cards<br /><br />This needs to be defined. I have no problem laying down corners or "flips" caused by handling.<br /><br />--trimming<br /><br />I am totally against trimming cards<br /><br />--bleachoing/recoloring<br /><br />I am totally against bleaching/recoloring cards"
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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>I am not going to get into this dialogue again. Many asked me if I regreted my previous posts...not at all. They led to numerous conversations collectors as well as with Joe Orlando and Dave Forman. As a culmination of all of this I will restate my position. Mastro Auctions will disclose any and all alterations to cards that we sell. If we are unable to detect an alteration and it is detected later we will issue a full refund.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Doug Allen<br />President<br />Mastro Auctions
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So, I suppose we are to assume that Mastro's policy on this issue has not changed.<br /><br />Thanks for clearing that up.
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Posted By: <b>Adam</b><p>I don't get what all the fuss is. If someone does not like how Mastro Auctions does business, just don't bid on any of their items. It's as simple as that. Just give your money to some other auction house.<br /><br />While I respect the opinions everyone has, I at least like Mastro. I am confident in my abilities (as well as the abilities of other board members) to extract what is truly important from any "extensive descriptions" they may provide, and I will continue to bid on Mastro items of interest. <br />
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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>Jeff, your tone is more than sarcastic, why dont you get JP or a Memory Lane rep here to discuss cards. No company is going to please everyone, its not the point, at least there is dialogue, i was pissed at the 20% and 10% bid increments because it severly lowered my chances of winning some cards, but at least we can have direct converstaion with Doug. I am sure if your work was published on the internet we would find a few flaws with you to.
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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I never said my opinion didn't change. Not at all. What I did say is I am committed to communicating all known or detected alterations to cards. <br /><br />You are a good customer and you can rest assured when you bid in my auctions that we will do our best to disclose everything we know regarding card alterations. Once you win something if you were to find we missed something (which can happen since we handle so many cards) I will step up and buy the card back.<br /><br />What more can one ask for than that?<br /><br />All the best,<br />Doug
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>First off, JP Cohen is a fraudster and we've already seen the sort of crap he pulls in auctions. Doug knows I don't feel that way about Mastro; I simply want Mastro to be more open and a better auction house.<br /><br />Second, that Doug comes out here and provides his position is wonderful -- except when the position he provides is less than what either myself or many others hoped for. All I want to know is what sort of 'alteration' is Mastro willing to disclose? Understand this: I am not saying that I think that all of Mastro's 'preparation' of cards for auction is wrong; I simply want to know if something, anything, has been done to the cards, period.<br /><br />And Rand, you're right: it must be tough for, say, the national media to pick apart every word that comes out of your mouth in a high-pressure situation. Can't imagine how tough that must be.
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Posted By: <b>Bruce Perry</b><p>now if they could only spell!!!!!!!!!!!!...........the mastro catalog descriptions are usually excellent and quite interesting, and the majority of people "get it"....I do not think it is mastro auctions job to baby the uninformed collector...they can email or call mastro auctions and get a more thorough description or explanation......the catalogs are getting thicker and heavier as it is, with what seems to be an increasing number of lots...and the fed ex trucks are having quite a time transporting them
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Think about what you just said. It would take then more time to answer questions if they left out pertinent info than if they included it from the get go. Besides, I think there are certain things they have to cover in the description in order to protect themselves legally.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>So I guess it would be babying the uninformed bidder to disclose a major restoration job on a Keeler cabinet (without getting the ok from the consignor or charging him for the work done) before attempting to pass it off as minimal restoration work? If that's babying, pass me the pacifier....
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Take your pick.<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1180382678.JPG">
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I'm partial to blue.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1180387770.JPG">
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>"You can rest assured when you bid in my auctions that we will do our best to disclose everything we know regarding card alteration"--Doug Allen<br /><br />Even when its you that is doing the altering????"<br /><br />Funny Doug--I read the Mastronet catalogues yet I cannot remember once reading the statement--"we took a crease out of this card" yet you admit openly that you do this.<br /><br />Which is it?<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hey Jim- welcome back. How are things going?
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Good to see you. It's a definitional thing I think -- Doug has posted that he doesn't think taking out a light crease that does not break the surface is an "alteration," thus no need to disclose it. As I recall when this subject was last discussed in depth, Doug had expressed the view that he thought the grading companies more or less shared the views expressed in the portion of the post I cut and pasted yesterday, and he indicated he would follow up with them, but I don't recall that we ever heard back from PSA.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I'm sure Doug would say that this is Mastro's new new new policy going forward. I hadn't seen any mention of their card alterations in the online preview of the June Collector's auction. Maybe the new policy will kick in for the August auction. Or the 08 auctions. Or the later ones. Or the ones after that.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Hey Barry,<br /><br />I am doing very well thanks--son graduates from college next week and my daughter from high school the week after that. Life is great. How are you?<br /><br />I was alerted by a hobby friend to what Doug was saying. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but I consider it the ultimate in hypocracy to first admit that you take creases out of cards and then say you will disclose all alterations with a straight face. I am still madly searching through my catalogues looking for where Mastronet says this was a psa 4 but we broke it out of the case, took the crease out, and now it is a psa 8--<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I assume you are being facetious but to be fair, at least Doug is being consistent -- he has stated his views on what they regard as alterations and what they regard as simply "preparation" that presumably does not need to be disclosed. Now some of us may disagree with the definitions, but at least we know what MIGHT have happened to any card we are considering buying. With others you don't even know that -- except perhaps with REA that says they don't do ANYTHING to prepare cards for submission.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter and Jeff,<br /><br />Okay--here is an example.<br /><br />I have a 48 Leaf Joe DiMaggio psa 4 that in my opinion is a psa 9 except that it has a very small surface crease in the picture of the card. I have been told by a leading national dealer that there is little question that Mastronet could take the crease out of the card and it his opinion that the card would grade a psa 9 and at worse an 8.<br /><br />So if I gave this card to Mastronet and asked them to take out the wrinkle, regrade it, have a nice conversation with Reza, and put it in there latest auction do you really think Mastronet would disclose the history of this card.<br /><br />I would add that I would consider it unethical to do what I described and what Doug Allen has already admitted to.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Peter, all anyone wants is for Mastro to disclose what - if anything - they did to the cards in their auction. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Well Doug has said taking out a surface crease or wrinkle is acceptable, so while he can speak for himself, of course, my interpretation of his remarks is that that would be acceptable and not disclosable. Now the only "wrinkle" (HAHA) is the prior PSA grade so I don't know if that would change anything. Presumably not, since I would think at least some percentage of the cards they submit are crack outs and I don't think I have ever seen a grading history disclosed.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />That is my recollection to--Doug said he would get back to us after hearing from SGC and PSA. I will admit to not following the posts on Net54 too closely recently but I do not recall seeing Doug disclose whether his firm's policy will change based upon his discussions with Dave Forman and Joe Orlando.<br /><br />When I asked Doug this question at the collectors dinner in nyc a while back I got a firm "no comment".<br /><br />Anybody wonder anymore what Rob Lifson is referring to in his recent letters?<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Jeff, I hear you, but I am guessing that they see a very successful business model and very little impact to the bottom line from not making these sorts of disclosures, so why WOULD they start disclosing grading histories and bumps and identifying every pressed down corner etc.?
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />You think someone who would drop $40,000-$50,000 on a 48 Leaf DiMaggio psa 9 would care that it used to be in a psa 4 holder with a light surface crease.<br /><br />Doug seems to be saying no--I think he is openly deceiving the buyer by not doing so.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Peter, of course Doug won't provide full disclosure because that would cost Mastro money - and that's all this is about. Same with Doug coming onto the board and 'communicating' with us - it's a PR move solely - and doesn't really provide any useful information.<br /><br />Very simple: disclose what, if anything, done to the cards. Period.
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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Hi Jim,<br /><br />Congratulations on the graduations.<br /><br />In the case of your 48 Leaf card, there are very few dealer who might not attempt to remove the wrinkle (or pay someone to do it). In fact I know many collectors who would make the same effort and many of the balance wouldn't do it because they couldn't not because they are purists. <br /><br />I completely understand and respect your opinion on this subject but were Mastro be able to get your Leaf card into an 8 or a 9, like Peter said, it would not be disclosed as it would be one of those undetectable enhancements that cards of all grades ROUTINELY undergo, which Doug, in accordance with the grading companies, does not feel is an alteration.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />Greg
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>If you can't tell and never will be able to tell if an alteration has occurred then why does it matter?
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Dan, does that mean it is ethically OK to alter Jim's card if I can do it really well (as opposed to less well where it would be detected)? There is a certain logic to your argument, but I am troubled where it leads.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Greg,<br /><br />As always I appreciate your opinions.<br /><br />I agree many dealers would not attempt this but Doug has admitted he would and you know many others who would do this. I understand this goes on all the time--maybe I should join the dark side.<br /><br />Dan--so you are saying that as long as you can get it past the grading company or the unsuspecting buyer nothing wrong with taking the creases out of cards?<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>I think what Dan is saying is:<br /><br />"If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a noise".
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>No, I firmly believe it is unethical to alter cards by taking out creases, adding color, et cetera because it is frowned upon in the card hobby. I'm just playing a little devil's advocate here. <br /><br />Jim has an impressive collection of PSA8's that even he concedes some may have been altered. I just don't think it's worth getting too upset thinking about because it is undetectable and at this point too late to do anything about. At some point if taking out creases or other alterations become completely undetectable then alterations are going to have to become an acceptable part of the hobby....perhaps it already is. As long as higher $$$'s are paid for the higher number then you will ALWAYS have people altering cards. You can't protect them all.<br /><br />I know that sounds a little like rambling so if you need any clarification I'm sure Joann can translate for me. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />Yes--I have altered PSA cards. Which ones they are I have no idea. Virtually everyone who owns PSA cards has some altered in my opinion. Unless someone like Only Child comes in who knows as much if not more than most top graders, it will remain unknown to most.<br /><br />I would like to fix things from here Dan. We cannot go back and change history but if the hobby could agree on a set of standards and be vigilant about publicizing and getting rid of the crooks it would be a good start. May be wishful thinking though.<br /><br />From what I can see Mastronet is more part of the problem than part of the solution.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim, I think the genie is out of the bottle. As long as it's undetectable it is going to go on. That doesn't make it right or ethical, but this hobby is big, and the dollars are even bigger so it will continue unabated until such time our hobby goes the way of Beanie Babies.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />There is only one point I would differ with you on and that is to the highly trained person--like Only Child, Baker, Dave's top graders--it is detectable.<br /><br />I think the grading companies need to invest the time and effort to be able to detect everything--perhaps as Only Child says--bring a card doctor on staff.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Sorry Dan - no translations from me this time. Too much treacherous ground in this thread. I'll stick with the easy stuff! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Joann
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I've always said that the onus falls squarely on the graders, to be as diligent as they possibly can and to be completely detached from any influence any of the major auction houses may have on them. When and if we reach that level, the number of altered cards in holders will approach zero.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I get your point and in an ideal world thats fine but certain card doctors know more than the graders.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It's a give and take battle. The graders and the trimmers are each building better mousetraps, to snare the other guy!
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Nothing will ever change because it is in the auction house's interests to sell higher graded cards. PSA doesn't care because their registry has caused the great majority of cards to go to PSA. Just follow the dollar, there's your answer.
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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Jim- Your statement "I have altered PSA cards" could be taken two ways. I'm assuming that means you possess them, as opposed to you have altered them yourself.<br /><br />Also, taking Jeff's last point a step further- it seems like the whole dialog about "what is alteration," etc. is driven by the high-grade orgy. If all collectors were pedestrian, this wouldn't be an issue!
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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Sorry I missed all the fireworks....involved in family Memorial Day festivities. Seems strange to call them festivities but basically spent the day with the wife and kids. Have a nephew that is a Ranger in Iraq so my thoughts go out to him today. <br /><br />Anyways, Jim I would be happy to sell your 48 DiMaggio in a PSA 4 holder. I am sure dealers that believed they could get the crease out would bid accordingly.<br /><br />As indicated earlier I have notified all employees that process cards that any and all alterations that we know of need to be disclosed in the write-up. Just last auction we disclosed that a T206 Plank was restored. If you buy a card in my auction and find a card was altered and this was not disclosed bring it to my attention and I will issue and immediate and full refund...regardless of whether a card grading company noted it or not.<br /><br />Two more cases in point. After it being pointed out on this forum I offered a full refund for a PSA8 Walter Johnson that I was not comfortable selling. Same with a rare back Elberfeld card (I think it was Broad Leaf 460). I don't hide behind grading services and I am not hiding from my customers.<br /><br />I am not sure why you choose to beat up on me in this forum. I don't know what else I can do. <br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Doug Allen<br />President<br />Mastro Auctions
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Doug -- third base!<br /><br />All we are asking is can Mastro simply state in its descriptions whether or not ANYTHING has been done to the card by Mastro? You keep saying you'll note alterations - but some of us don't define 'alteration' as narrowly as Mastro does.
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jeff, it ain't going to happen. When the difference between a 7 and an 8 means thousands of dollars the undetectable alterations are going to continue. What do they have to gain by mentioning the alteration when they are offering full money back guarantees? 99.9% of collectors will never catch the alteration.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, integrity for one.<br /><br />But I agree, Dan. I'm just not certain how many more ways I can say the same thing and have Doug claim (again) that he is simply being attacked without answering my question.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>If you were referring to lot 1777, it would have been hard not to admit it, since the Plank card was in a PSA case labeled Authentic - Altered . <br /><br />What we as customers are requesting is that Mastro Auctions properly identify any and all restoration work (from wax stain removal and "spooning" creases to power erasing and paper addition) performed by Mastro employees or outside sources hired by Mastro on any item listed in one of your catalogs as to what work was performed on it. <br /><br />(Edited to remove redundancy)
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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Doug,<br /><br />You are smarter than that.<br /><br />You know what you can do and that is come clean. What do Dave and Joe say about your practice of taking creases out of the card. You said you would stop I believe if they disapproved. I think you also said you would report back to us which you haven't. Yet you have gone silent and all we hear is no comment. That hardly inspires confidence over what you are doing to the cards that are given to you.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Wouldn't it be easier and cleaner to simply submit cards to the grading services as they are received and do nothing to them? Can't consignor and auction house agree to that based on pre-established company policy? <br /><br />If a card has a bent corner, that's the way you send it in. If it has a wrinkle, it is submitted with a wrinkle.<br /><br />Do consignors send material in because they assume it will be made better by the auction house? And I'm not even singling out Mastro or any one in particular, I'm just talking about a general policy. I send cards in for consignors as a service. That is my sole responsbility. I've never told a consignor I will get you a better grade, or anything to that effect. And that's the way it should be across the board.
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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Suppose Jim wanted to maximize the value of his DiMaggio. Suppose it had a surface wrinkle that did not break the surface and in your expert judgment Doug it could be safely removed and not detected. Would Mastro Auctions do that for Jim and then resubmit the card? And if so would they disclose in the auction that it had been a PSA 4 earlier but a wrinkle had been removed? I think that is what people want to know and understand.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Doug already has stated that Mastronet would remove these.<br /><br />If he states differently here it is a change in policy by Mastronet. Their prior policy has been to take them out and not disclose this in the auction. If this is wrong I challenge anyone to find a description where it says a crease has been taken out of the card.<br /><br />Jim
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