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Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p>Thought someone here would want this list to help in assembling a HOF set. It's a .JPG and may be a bit fuzzy. I've got a cleaner .DOC file (MS Word), email me if interested. fdnyladder7@comcast.net<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1179018212.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Maybe Joe Jackson ranked a little low. Also, some modern players ranked a little low, but rankings were reasonable at the time they were made.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Looks like the totally ignored the ninetenth century.

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Waner and Plank were slighted, but what the heck.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Given that sportswriters did the ranking and the time frame, I'm really surprised how low Mantle is. It's about the right place for him, but he still has lots of people living that saw him play and overrate him because he was a Yankee. On the other hand, Lefty Grove is way too low and Matty is prolly too high.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Grove and Oscar Charleston are too low. Nolan Ryan is way too high.

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Posted By: <b>brian</b><p>i would move Honus up to number 11 and drop Willie Mays down to number 12

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I don't care if this is from 1998 or 2098 -- Ty Cobb can never be behind Wille Mays.

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> I'll wager that few of the voters have seen few of the players. I'm 61 and if you ask anyone of my age group they would agree that Ted Williams was WAY better than Hank Aaron. They would also say that Mickey Mantle was way better than Bench (Bench had some bad years). Putting Bench ahead of Mantle is a joke. If you saw Clemente you would want him on your team ahead of Aaron. Any list with Bonds on it has problems to begin with. Joe D is top 5 or 6 (the Bill Russell of baseball). Yogi is better than Bench. For me, longevity is WAY overrated: it's who do you want when you choose up sides downs at the sandlot. Where's Pedro? Best pitcher I've seen when he was healthy: Koufax very close second. I've seen all these guys I'm talking about. Remember, Ted lost 5 prime years serving his country. Otherwise, not a bad list. How can anyone know how good Matty or Josh or Joe Jackson was. Before Joe Wood got hurt he was a peer of Walter Johnson; Walter said so himself. In closing, Willie could do it all and was so much fun to watch. You should have been there. I saw a list of the top ten baseball play by play guys that didn't list Red Barber at all. This was on ESPN Classic. People who know, all say Red was #1: but you had to have actually heard him.

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Posted By: <b>jonfreund</b><p>Can someone please tell me why Willie McCovey is #56? I don't understand.

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>Cobb and Ruth should be #1-2 and Walter Johnson should be #3 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Pete Rose played with both Joe Morgan and Mike Scmidt during their primes and TSN couldn't see that they were far better than him? Lou Brock is number fifty-eight (way too high)? Many other foolish choices as well. This list should not be considered anything but a silly diversion to amuse TSN's staff.

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Posted By: <b>Ed</b><p>Where's Bucky Dent?

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Posted By: <b>Scot</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>He is rated too high on the list, but Bench is way better than Berra.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Why is there a problem with Bonds on the list, aside from what I would presume is your personal dislike for him? Regardless of whether you think the guy is a miscreant and PED user, there is no denying that he is one of the greatest players of all time. Also note that this survey was done in 1998, long before was any suspicion that Bonds was doing anything wrong.<br /><br />If you are going to say that you have problems with one player because you don't like him because he is a bad human being and cheated, then you better be prepared to also removed miscreants and cheaters like Cobb, Speaker, Hornsby, and bunches of other players.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> He has a huge dislike for him Jay,read any thread anytime Bonds name comes up. <br /><br /> Lists like these are usually a joke because the people voting dont know enough about baseball history to properly pick them. Because people can name more than 5 players from pre-1950,it doesnt make them an expert. Id like to see a real poll done by people who have to answer questions first without looking for the answer before they can vote. Then i would trust their opinion.Someday ill come up with a quiz of 20 questions that people with baseball history should know off the top of their head<br /><br /> question 1. what year did the NL start playing? you dont know the answer,dont do a poll about the greatest players all time!<br /><br /> question 2. Who was Buck Ewing? If you answered he was the JR's uncle from the show Dallas,well then you might be a redneck....and so on <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> Has NOTHING to do with his character or personality. The personal property he his about to gain, i. e., the all-time home run record (baseball's most honored record) is ill-gotten. Everyone knows there is no honor in what is about to happen. Barry slaps Hank in the face. We're supposed to stand up and cheer? Please!

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> The poll is from 1998 so if you have a problem with Bonds being on it then you had a personal problem with him before that. Dont make it sound like your stepping up to defend Hank Aaron,everytime Bonds name is mentioned on this board,you have to say something and in this case its beyond ridiculous to say he doesnt belong on a list from 1998 no matter what you think of him.

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> John, you make an excellent point in that Bonds belongs on a 1998 list. In my first post I was unaware the list was from 1998. Let me ask, where do you think he belongs now?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>As a hitter, it's a toss up between Ruth and Bonds at #1. You could proabably put Williams in the mix too. Ruth gets the nod as the #1 player all-time because he was also an outstanding pitcher a possibly headed to the HOF if he never moved to the OF.<br /><br />The record is not ill-gotten, as you claim. Cheating has occurred since the game was fist played. I'd bet you Aaron was taking greenies and doing anything else to make himself better adn give himself an edge over other players. This would true for just about all players. So acting as if Bonds is the first player to try and take advantage of the rules and do whatever is needed to make himself the best player possible is just silly.<br /><br />You can hate the guy for how he acts and how you think he went about it, but there is no denying that Bonds is one of the greatest hitters ever to step up to the plate.<br /><br />And yes, he belonged on that list in 1998. Even should be ranked even higher since he became a much better and more disciplined hitter since that time.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Ive never put enough thought into properly ranking players so i cant answer that.At some point im going to,which i keep saying,and ill let it be known next time the subject comes up. As of right now my top 100 list stands at three,1-Ruth,2-Williams and 3-Mays.After that its still up in the air.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Bonds is a great hitter no doubt but there is no way anyone could think he is top 1-2 of all time. History will bear this out. While players took greenies in the 60s and 70s in order to stay high energy, they didn't take steroids to improve their strength and bat speed (and increase the size of their heads and uniforms). Bonds will forever be known as the cheater that even he has admitted he is and his records will be forever tainted, whether anyone likes it or not.

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> John, I see you're a man of wisdom since I saw you place Ted as #2 all time.<br /> Jay, I can see there's no way I can talk you out of your position. You try to put words in my mouth and read my mind. In your baseball world, there is no misdemeanor, no felony (coaches stealing signs is as bad as taking steroids for you). Greenies are performance enabling and not comparable to the chemical cocktail consumed by Barry. To quote Steve Somers of WFAN, "I mean, look already."

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Bonds did not take PEDs in a vacuum. Most of MLB was/is doing it, batters and hitters, thus making a level playing field for this era. Let's see how well Cobb, Williams, Ruth et al, would have done against juiced up pitchers like Clemens, Schilling and others.<br /><br />PEDs didn't help Mac's average. He was still an all or nothing hitter. Bonds is great hitter whether or not he took PEDs. And how much better a hitter than everyone else is bore out in the numbers. PEDs is a strawman for comparing him to his peers since his peers were juiced up too.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Not everyone was taking steroids. Even less admitted it (of course, Bonds was one of the few that actually admitted he took steroids). For that reason alone, Bonds's accomplishments will be tainted. With all the talent he had he could have been thought of as one of the greatest. Instead, he'll go down in history as a cheater.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Bonds has NOT admitted to anything other than taking a clear cream that his trainer gave him. He never claimed it was steroids, HGH or any other PED. <br /><br />It doesn't matter that everyone in MLB did not take PEDs. The fact is, most have, so Bonds performance was not done in a vacuum, and he certainly isn't the first player to cheat or try to take advantage of the rules to be the best.<br /><br />I wish I had kept response on SABR-l about who used PEDs. Some listed all the "symptoms" that Maris suffered during his run to 61. He had all the signs that would today get labled as a steroid user.<br /><br />People need to quit acting like Bonds is the first person to cheat. He certainly won't be the last. I hope all you people that hate Bonds so much have as much disdain for Cobb, as he was just as horrible, if not a worst person than Bonds and would do anything, including cheat, to be the best in the game.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Having read a lot about Cobb, I'd have to say I'd take him over Bonds every day of the week (which speaks volumes about what a lowlife Barry Bonds is). Edited to add: Unlike Bonds who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and had Willie Mays as a godfather, Cobb's mother shot his father to death just as Cobb was to begin his professional career as a teenager. Unlike Bonds, who was coddled for his athletic abilities probably since he began to crawl as a baby, Cobb was badly abused by teammates during his first couple years in the bigs and had little or no support from others. So, while Cobb had some bad personality traits at least a large part of his behavior can be traced back to some defining events in his life. Bonds is just a lowlife who is hated by nearly every person he comes in contact with and most of those who don't. <br /><br />Bonds admitted to using the "clear and the cream" that he received from Greg Anderson and has claimed he was unaware that the clear and the cream were banned substances. So, he admitted using banned substances even if he claims he did so without knowing what they were at the time. Of course, this is a lie as there are dozens of witnesses who have already stated that Bonds knowingly took steroids. There are also calenders with notations on them that corroborate the claim that Bonds took steroids. Indeed, Greg Anderson is in prison as we speak solely to protect Barry Bonds; there really is no other reason for him to refuse to answer questions under oath about Bonds. Again, if the crime were taking steroids Bonds would have already been indicted and convicted. Instead, Bonds is the focus of a grand jury probe for perjury which is a tough crime to prove as the feds need to prove materiality and intent to lie. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>Bonds and the rest of the steroid users should be banned from the list and banned from baseball.

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>I don't care if this is from 1998 or 2098 -- Ty Cobb can never be behind Wille Mays<br /><br /><br />I agree 100%. Babe Ruth was the greatest homerun hitter of all time and Ty Cobb was the greatest baseball player of all time. Put them in any order you want as long as they are 1 and 2.<br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: <b>CN</b><p> Joe, when you say that Ty Cobb can never be behind Willie Mays that is a very strong opinion. I would agree that both should be in the top 10 and probably top 5 non-pitchers listed but I think when you get to the top of the list except for Ruth you can make a case for about a half dozen players. Gehrig,Dimaggio, Williams,Aaron and Musial for the #2 spot. CN

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Hey Brett,get that list of steroid users over to us as soon as you know,its at least 4 digits worth of players. Anyone who singles one player out in the last 20+ years is doing it out of personal prejudice against that player.I have no proof of any player being clean so im not going to assume any of them are,and that goes for any sport,and im not going to care which are because of that. People need to learn their baseball history and put things into historical perspective,thats the most important thing.If you cant separate generations then theres no reason to care about all-time rankings so why bother even discussing it.

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>I'm tired of hearing how "great" barry bonds is. Hes king of the 'roids as far as i'm concerned. I hate him and every other steroid user. Cheating like that should NOT be in the game, or any other game for that matter. <br /><br />Alot of you seem to rank Cobb very low. I think some people hate Cobb because hes "racist" and tend to rank alot lower than he should. How can you not rank Cobb # 1 or 2 ?? The guy had 23 straight seasons over .300 ! career batting AVG of .367, over 4000 hits... led the league in hitting a dozen times, over 2200 runs scored, 892 stolen bases, over 700 doubles, almost 300 triples, hit over .400 3 times, had over 1900 RBI.... i mean the list is endless. Is there any other major leaguer that can say they accomplished all of that ?? For someone to AVG over .360 for 24 seasons is just crazy...

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Brett,<br /><br />Mays had the edge in two facets of the game over Cobb. He was a better fielder and had more power. He also might might have been just as good on the basepaths too but he tried to conserve himself because he knew that his team needed his bat.<br /><br />Mays often showed off his baserunning skills in the All-Star games and sometimes batted lead-off.<br /><br />You cannot say that they were wrong in picking Mays over Cobb.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Bonds may be the "king of roids" according to you, but it still doesn't diminish the fact that he is the greatest hitter most of us have ever seen. <br /><br />Just imagine if Cobb played today; bitter racist, physical assault on numerous occasions, allegations of murder and attempted murder. Plus, he cheated in every way possible. This is a far worse person on all levels than Bonds, but almost everyone here reveres Cobb as some sort of god while despising Bonds for crimes far less worse than Cobb's. I have no doubt that if Cobb had the chance to use PEDs, he would have been all over it. So save us the sanctimonious crap. There are people in the HOF that are much worse than Bonds.<br /><br />Here's another question that everyone loves to duck, would you despise Roger Clemens as much if the same circumstantial evidence existed against him that exists against Bonds? He shows all the same physical characteristics that everyone claims proves that Bonds uses. And just imagine if Bonds made that contract demands that Clemens does. Just imagine the outrage.<br /><br />Just to clarify for the new people, I'm not a Bonds apologist. I have no doubt he uses PEDs, along with most other MLBers and professional athletes. It just irks me that people say Bonds doesn't belong in HOF, on an all-time great list, etc because he cheated. Put simply, everyone cheats, every since the game began. As John pointed out, it's never been proven that there is one player that has not taken PEDs, so it's best to just assume that everyone uses because you have a better chance of being correct with that assumption than if you assume no one uses.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>I think Ty Cobb had the most votes in getting into the Hall of Fame for a reason. To get more votes than Babe Ruth.. now THATS SAYING SOMETHING !<br /><br />You also can't blame Cobb for not having the power. He played most of his career in the dead ball era. You make it sound like its Cobbs fault for hitting 40 HRs a year. I think this has something to do with it:<br /><br />"Before 1920, it was very common for a baseball to be in play for over 100 pitches, as in cricket. A ball would be used until it started to unravel. The early baseball leagues were very cost-conscious, so fans would have to throw back balls that had been hit in the stands. The longer the ball was in use the softer it would become, and hitting a heavily-used, softer ball for distance is much more difficult than hitting a new, harder one. There is also the argument that the ball itself was softer to begin with making home runs less likely."<br /><br />I don't hold having "no power" against Cobb. From 1907 - 1918 Cobb finished in the top 10 in HRs every year except for 2 years and 5 times in the top 5. In his younger days, I guess you could call him a homerun hitter back then. Sure some of those were inside the park homeruns, but those old time ball parks had huge outfields... <br /><br />Also, you can't say that Willie Mays was a better fielder, unless you were alive during 1905-1928... so I don't think you can make that assumption. I wasn't alive when they both played, but I think Cobbs hitting stats speak for themself. I've read that Cobb was also a great fielder in his day, so I don't know what else to say...

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Cobb was partly a product of his times regarding his racism. Bonds has less of an excuse than Cobb ever did for his boorish behavior. In addition, it is clear that Cobb suffered from mental illness; Bonds just causes other people to suffer from mental illness. Again, Bonds is worse than Cobb if you can compare people from different eras. As for Clemens, Jay, how can you say "if there was the same circumstantial evidence against Clemens that there is against Bonds would you hate him as much?" First off, there is not. And eyewitness testimony is not circumstantial by the way. I can't stand Clemens and I'd hate him more if I was sure he was a jucier which, unlike as to Bonds, I can't say that with certainty. And some people seem to actually like Clemens (why I don't know) and very, very few people like Bonds including his teammates (one of which he threw under the bus last winter).

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Posted By: <b>calleocho</b><p>The 2005 Sporting News Top 100<br /><br />1 Babe Ruth<br />2 Willie Mays<br />3 Ty Cobb<br />4 Walter Johnson<br />5 Hank Aaron<br />6 Barry Bonds<br />7 Lou Gehrig<br />8 Christy Mathewson<br />9 Ted Williams<br />10 Rogers Hornsby<br />11 Stan Musial<br />12 Joe DiMaggio<br />13 Pete Alexander<br />14 Honus Wagner<br />15 Roger Clemens<br />16 Cy Young<br />17 Jimmie Foxx<br />18 Johnny Bench<br />19 Mickey Mantle<br />20 Josh Gibson<br />21 Satchel Paige<br />22 Roberto Clemente<br />23 Warren Spahn<br />24 Frank Robinson<br />25 Lefty Grove<br />26 Eddie Collins<br />27 Pete Rose<br />28 Sandy Koufax<br />29 Tris Speaker<br />30 Mike Schmidt<br />31 Napoleon LaJoie<br />32 Steve Carlton<br />33 Bob Gibson<br />34 Tom Seaver<br />35 George Sisler<br />36 Joe Jackson<br />37 Bob Feller<br />38 Hank Greenberg<br />39 Ernie Banks<br />40 Yogi Berra<br />41 Nolan Ryan<br />42 Mel Ott<br />43 Al Simmons<br />44 Jackie Robinson<br />45 Carl Hubbell<br />46 Charley Gehringer<br />47 Buck Leonard<br />48 Reggie Jackson<br />49 Roy Campanella<br />50 Rickey Henderson<br />51 Greg Maddux<br />52 Whitey Ford<br />53 Harry Heilmann<br />54 George Brett<br />55 Willie McCovey<br />56 Bill Dickey<br />57 Tony Gwynn<br />58 Lou Brock<br />59 Bill Terry<br />60 Randy Johnson<br />61 Joe Morgan<br />62 Rod Carew<br />63 Paul Waner<br />64 Eddie Mathews<br />65 Jim Palmer<br />66 Mickey Cochrane<br />67 Cool Papa Bell<br />68 Oscar Charleston<br />69 Eddie Plank<br />70 Alex Rodriguez<br />71 Harmon Killebrew<br />72 Pie Traynor<br />73 Juan Marichal<br />74 Carl Yastrzemski<br />75 Lefty Gomez<br />76 Robin Roberts<br />77 Willie Keeler<br />78 Al Kaline<br />79 Cal Ripken, Jr.<br />80 Eddie Murray<br />81 Joe Medwick<br />82 Brooks Robinson<br />83 Willie Stargell<br />84 Mark McGwire<br />85 Ed Walsh<br />86 Duke Snider<br />87 Sam Crawford<br />88 Dizzy Dean<br />89 Ozzie Smith<br />90 Frank Frisch<br />91 Ralph Kiner<br />92 Chuck Klein<br />93 Ken Griffey, Jr.<br />94 Wade Boggs<br />95 Sammy Sosa<br />96 Dave Winfield<br />97 Derek Jeter<br />98 Gaylord Perry<br />99 Dennis Eckersley<br />100 Paul Molitor<br />

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Posted By: <b>Lee</b><p>IMO, I think Satchel Paige is a bit low at #19....

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>It might be true that Cobb was a product of his time, but during his time, the press didn't pry into player's personal lives the way they do today, yet we know of all these horrific things about Cobb. How much more would be known about Cobb if he had been under the same scrutiny that Bonds is? Also, how do you know if Bonds doesn't from some mental illness? If it is later proven that Bonds does have a mental illness, do you suddenly forgive him for all his actions? I get the feeling that most people would be think that's it just a story to try and cover up Bonds poor behaviour.<br /><br />Cobb was a horrible and despicable person, even for his time. More so than Bonds is today.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>The difference between Cobb's and Bonds's behavior is that there are a number of things in Cobb's history that you can point to as triggers; as for Bonds, he's had nothing but an easy life since birth and has generally treated people around him like crap. For that reason alone, I would take Cobb over Bonds. More importantly, history has been kind to Cobb (and although despised at the time, Cobb was thought of as the greatest player in baseball history during his prime). Not so to Barry who is already dismissed and hated by most of baseball and will forever be viewed as a cheat.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Honus Wagner only 14th? No way.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I love it, more excuses for Cobb <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I'm sorry, but I don't care what your upbringing and background are, you can overcome them or let them swallow you up. Making excuses for Cobb's despicable behaviour is sad, at best. Like Bonds, he was a cheat, a miserable human being and a great baseball player. Cobb just didn't have to sufferer the microscope of the modern day press. It would be interesting to see if he could have handled it.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Peter,<br />It's possible to rank Wagner 14th only if you ignore how much defense and pitching dominated baseball during the first decade or two of the last century. He put up competitive career numbers in hits, ops., total bases, runs created, etc. during an era when the league batting average was in the .240's. The pitchers weren't on steroids but they threw spitballs, emery balls, etc. and kept using them until they turned black.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, you're trying desperately to get someone to admit that the reason Bonds is viewed differently than Cobb and Clemens is due to racism. Sorry, that dog won't hunt. The reason Bonds is hated more than the two of them combined is because he has worse character traits than the two of them combined. Ever think that maybe Cobb would be more careful about his behavior if the modern day press was on his ass 24/7?

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>"Again, Bonds is worse than Cobb if you can compare people from different eras."<br /><br />So Jeff, you're saying that being a jerk to the media in 2007 is akin to nearly beating minorities and cripples to death 90 years ago? <br /><br />I guess it will surprise you to learn that ESPN rated Ty Cobb the "all-time least likable ballplayer":<br /><a href="http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/unlikeable/010813.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/unlikeable/010813.html</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/unlikeable/010813.html</a</a>>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Marcus, not to compare apples to oranges but Bonds has been accused of beating his girlfriend, no? No doubt Cobb was a nut - a true psychopath in all senses of the word. But as I've said, Cobb suffered from severe mental illness, suffered through ridiculous family stress (mother killing his father) and was from an era where racism was acceptable behavior. Bonds on the other had a much more privileged upbringing.

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>Cobbs behaviour has nothing to do with it at all. Hes being ranked on his baseball skills, not how great of a human being he is. Just because he might have been an arsehole back then doesn't mean you should rank him lower. I hate Bonds because he cheated or is still cheating, not because hes an arsehole. Now the cheater is going to break the homerun record. I'm assuming after A-Rod will pass Bonds on the all time list, then Pujols will pass A-Rod. Gotta love the "steroid era" of Major League baseball <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Just because Bonds grew up in a family that had a father for a MLBer and more money than most people does not mean that his was any easier than anyone else's. Rich families still beat and abuse their kids and can suffer the same horrible childhood as a poor kid. The msot messed up people I know come from rich families. It's the ones from lower income families that seem the best adjusted. <br /><br />You don't think Bonds' upbringing didn't make him the social ingrate that he is? If you can use Cobb's upbringing as excuse to let his horrific behaviour slide, then why doesn't Bonds' upbringing excuse him from his social ills? And don't say he had a better childhood becuase of money again again. Even you should know that's a silly argument.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Brett, you are forgetting that Cobb was one of the biggest cheaters of the day. Why is that excusable? He and Tris Speaker are lucky they didn't get lifetime bans for fixing games.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, your argument makes zero sense. Basically, you claim that rich kids get beaten by their parents too -- though you make no claim that Bonds grew up in a dysfunctional home. So what is your point other than to create a straw man solely for the purpose of knocking it down? Point to something in Bonds's childhood that could act as a trigger for his behavior today and then you'd be talking.

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> Jay, give it up (Ralph to Norton: "You are a mental case.").

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Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p>I despise Bonds too. But John, that comment was low.

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> It just gets so boring. Besides, a little Honeymooners' humor might be just what this post needs.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Boy, I must know a lot less about baseball than I thought.<br /><br />I take Willie Mays ahead of Ty Cobb ten times out of ten. I rank Babe Ruth as the #1 player of all-time, and Willie Mays right behind him at #2. Just like the Sporting News. <br /><br />And I think Barry Bonds is one of the top 4-5 position players of all time.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>This argument shows precisely why we should judge Cobb, Bonds and everyone else as baseball players, not as men. I don't think we have enough facts to psychoanalyze Cobb, or to judge whether there are demons in Bonds' past.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I agree with you. If it weren't for Ruth's unique impact on the history of the game, I might put Mays first -- Ruth isn't even close to Mays in fielding, throwing or baserunning.

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> I think Mays was the best all round: hit, hit for power, field, throw, run = the ultimate 5 tool player.<br /><br />Was Joe Jackson 5 tool?

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Mays vs. Ruth? Ruth was a far better pitcher. Maybe one of the best ever.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Let's not get carried away, Ruth pitched for perhaps 4 complete seasons. Granted, he might well have been an all time great had he remained a pitcher, but to say he WAS one of the greatest pitchers ever seems overstated.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Peter, you hit it right on the head, Jeff knows no more about Bonds' childhood than anyone really knows about Cobb's mental health. We can make assumptions about both, but that's it. To assume that Bonds had a perfect childhood because he came from a rich family is just plain silly. We obviously have no idea why Bonds acts the way he does, but it would seem that he had some sort of "trigger" events to cause it, just like Jeff claims there are "trigger" events that caused Cobb to be the way he is.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, there is no evidence that Bonds had any of the sort of life that Cobb did in terms of difficulties growing up. You even argued that the media has forever been all over Bonds; I suppose they missed the part where his mother shot his father to death. Cobb's difficulties, on the other hand, are well-documented. You can't have it both ways by claiming that Bonds has been under a microscope by the media but they happened to miss all the strife he had growing up. And you also can't claim that because there is no evidence that Bonds had any great trauma growing up that suggests that such a trauma could have existed. These are fairly basic logic concepts, no?

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Posted By: <b>Brian H (misunderestimated)</b><p>It’s a baby boomer generated list that overrates the big names from the 1940's through free agency (the guys that the voters saw play during their formative years). It also ignores the 19th century stars and gives some (but not nearly enough) credit to the Negro League greats. These two groups are admittedly the hardest to rate but I think even a conservative approach would give them more credit. That said I'm surprised Mickey Mantle scored so poorly. <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mantlmi01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mantlmi01.shtml</a>) He is usually at the top of such lists and (at least in this case) I think they may have underrated him! He was certainly, better than Joe DiMaggio (<a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dimagjo01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/dimagjo01.shtml</a>) unless you are willing to give a lot of speculative credit for what DiMaggio might have done during the war.<br /><br />Apart from those general errors, the biggest mistake is Wagner. I would put him easily in the top 5 all time (probably at 2 or 3) . If they had an MVP award akin to ours during his career he would have won more than Bonds (the same with gold gloves) At least until very recently the Shortstop were inferior hitters. Wagner however was among the best hitters in all of baseball for most of his long career. If you look at the leaders Wagner was among the leaders at in virtually every offensive category during his career. (<a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wagneho01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wagneho01.shtml</a>) In short he was most complete position player in the games’ history, he played a crucial position, he was a winner, and he was a great teammate. He tied Babe Ruth for second just behind Ty Cobb (<a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof.shtml</a>) in the inaugural Hall of Fame voting (which was a bit screwed up) in 1936.<br /><br />With the Negro Leaguers, the consensus among the people who have really given the issue the most thought is that Oscar Charleston (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Charleston" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Charleston</a>) was the greatest all around player and should rank ahead of the more famous Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Buck Leonard and Satchell Paige. Predictably those guys are from the next generation.<br /><br />Significantly overrated: Koufax, Joe Jackson, Clemente, Lou Brock, Sisler, Bill Terry, Nolan Ryan and Joe DiMaggio. <br /><br />Underrated (as of 1998): Collins, Lajoie, Lefty Grove (should be in or around the top 10) (<a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/grovele01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/grovele01.shtml</a>) Joe Morgan and Tris Speaker.<br /><br />Should be on the list:<br /> 1. More Negro Leaguers (egs. Joe Rogan, Joe Williams, Pop Lloyd)<br />2. I believe the earliest on the list are Young, Wagner and Lajoie all of whom played in the 1890’s. Of those only Young 9 <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youngcy01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/y/youngcy01.shtml</a>) played the better part of his career before 1900.<br />Of the earlier players missing at least some of the following belong: Delahanty, Anson, Kid Nichols, Brouthers, Billy Hamilton, Buck Ewing, Connor and probably at least one more Pitcher like Clarkson, Rusie or Radborne) <br />4.Three Finger Brown; <br />5.Floyd "Arky" Vaughan (there aren't enough shortstops on this list at all and he's among the top few all-time)<br /><br />As to what to do as of now with Bonds, Clemens and anything else from the past several years:<br /><br />With Bonds and anyone else suspected of using PEDs to increase their power and/or durability I think they should be credited rather conservatively since we really don't know how rampant PEDs were, how much certain individuals benefited over and above the other players they had to compete with. All things considered I think Barry easily has to go in the top 4 or 5 but I can't see going much further until we have a better perspective.<br /><br /> I also would bump up Maddox, Clemens and Rickey Henderson. I'm holding off on putting Clemens (at the moment the one I rank highest) ahead of Johnson, Grove and Young until the dust settles.<br /><br />Based on the numbers alone the following players probably merit strong consideration (depending, of course, on whether you want to preemptively punish some of them for using PEG etc.): AROD, Sosa, Jeter, The Big Unit, Pedro, Palmeiro, IROD, Piazza, Frank Thomas, Glavine, Manny Ramirez etc. <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>John Kalafarski</b><p> I have always put Mickey and Joe D in my top seven. I think you have to give credit to Joe for the three missing seasons due to WW2. For list placing purposes. Joe's lifetime BA was .325. Mickey's .298. In 18 years Mickey hit 536 HRs for 29.7 per. In 13 years Joe hit 361 for 27.7 per. Joe didn't have the short porch advantage Mickey had while hitting lefthanded. Joe was in 10 WS and was 9-1. Mickey was in 12 and was 7-5. Joe was, for all of Mickey's speed, a better fielder. He was more of a team leader than Mickey (this, I know, is very subjective and based on my readings). I would be curious as to how Yankee fans would rate the top 5 Yankees of all time. Bill James, for example, rates Lou Gehrig rather low. I've see Lou as high as #2 on baseball's all-time list.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I love Mickey but I'm not sure I'd put him in a top 20. <br /><br />Joe DiMaggio is Joe DiMaggio, and I'd probably put him in a top 20.<br /><br />I'm just trying to think of who would be in my top 20, and here's what I come up with, in no particular order (except #1 and 2)<br /><br />Ruth<br />Mays<br />Cobb<br />Aaron<br />Bonds<br />Wagner<br />Matty<br />Johnson<br />Williams<br />Young<br />Alexander<br />Hornsby<br />Gibson<br />DiMaggio<br />Gehrig<br />Foxx<br />Grove<br />Musial<br />Collins<br />Anson<br /><br />Another few years at this level, and I'd replace Collins or Anson with Rodriguez.<br /><br />I guess. Although I could change my mind tomorrow. Frank Robinson, Yogi Berra, Roy Campanella, Pete Rose, Jackie, Satchel, jeez, there are so many.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Denny</b><p>Someone would honestly pick Yogi Berra over Jackie Robinson? Jackie would of stole home and patted Yogi on the back, while Yogi was lookin' down saying, "the only problem we'll have is if the other team scores more runs then us!?" Yogi was good, but Jackie was Great! imho....<br /><br />Life's Grand,<br />Denny Walsh<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeffrey Lichtman</b><p>Unfortunately, it's difficult to ignore Roger Clemens in a list that includes Bob Gibson.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Was "good"? The best or second best catcher of all time (I can see the case for Bench) was only "good" but not great? Sheesh.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Jeff: It's incredible how biased you are in making a case that Cobb wasn't that bad of a guy or that his "bad personality traits" (as you put it) are excusable due to his upbringing.<br /><br />Cobb once charged the stands to beat senseless a crippled heckler. He once beat a black groundskeeper and then choked the groundskeeper's wife (his teammates had to pull him off of her). Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator and then stabbed a black night watchman who intervened. He reportedly carried a gun with him during much of his career to protect him from..his own teammates. <br /><br />It's disingenuous of you to have read up on Cobb and still characterize these vicious, criminal acts as mere "bad personality traits." Or to excuse them due to his childhood experiences. Or to say his personality was better than Bonds'.<br /><br />Why can't you just admit that Cobb committed many vicious/criminal acts and was despised by his own teammates, but luckily the hall of fame evaluated him on his baseball skills instead of his personal life? Until you can admit this, your posts lack credibility.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Al,<br />Anson was one heck of a player and so was Collins. Rather than bump either one I'd make it a top 21 or top 22 list.

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Posted By: <b>Denny</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I wasn't attacking Yogi at all, Mearly sayin' that Jackie was Great! My Apologies... I can't get enuff of Yogi, He was the best I ever saw and I'm a Met fan...<br />But Jackie was one of the top 5 "All Around" Best Players Ever...imho! He changed the game when he was on the field, not many did that! Isn't that the reason most prefer Ty Cobb? He Bunted just to get on base, just to reak havoc... He (also) alone changed the game...<br /><br />Life's Grand,<br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I think Cobb was merely the victim of a society that condoned racism, and that none of the aforementioned acts reflected on him personally.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Denny, Peter S.,<br /><br />I'd have to go with Yogi over Johnny Bench as the best catcher of all time. 3 MVPs for Yogi and only 2 for Johnny. It's not just that, Yogi had stiffer competition for the MVP also. Plus the fact that Yogi was one of the best bad ball hitters ever.<br /><br />People tend to underrate Yogi because he's known as a comedian but his baseball IQ was as high as anybody's.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jeffrey Lichtman</b><p>Mark, I think that Cobb's actions (all accurately described by you) were a product of a severe mental illness. Bonds, on the other hand, has committed his criminal and otherwise boorish actions solely due to his own selfishness and ego.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I don't know.<br /><br />We all have hangups. I would imagine that if my father were a former pro ballplayer - and a very good one at that, and my godfather were one of the greatest to ever set foot on a baseball field, and I was surrounded by great players during my childhood...<br /><br />and I had superior natural abilities that were clear even as a child,<br /><br />and as a college student it was a given that I was going to be a great Major League Baseball player,<br /><br />and I had the obsessive-compulsive tendencies that are pretty normal in pro athletes,<br /><br />and I lived at a time when 24-hour news and sports channels followed my every move,<br /><br />and I didn't have the greatest people skills in the world,<br /><br />and I saw the country fawn over Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa even as I knew they were cheating,<br /><br />then perhaps I would be a steroid-bloated jerk as well. But hopefully I wouldn't beat any one-armed hecklers.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Al, if you do beat up any one-armed hecklers, be sure to hire Jeff. You're the victim.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Doesn't a one-armed man have the same rights to be beaten up as a two-armed man...and wouldn't he want those rights stood up for (assuming you have legs of course)?<br /><br />So in honor of all the one-armed men:<br /><br /><br />"BLACK KNIGHT<br />| Who dares to challenge the Black Knight?<br />|<br />| ARTHUR<br />| I do not challenge you.<br /><br />The BLACK KNIGHT stares impassively and says nothing.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />I am Arthur, King of the Britons.<br /><br />Hint of a pause as he waits for a reaction which doesn't come. ARTHUR<br />is only slightly thrown.<br /><br />... I seek the bravest and the finest knights in all the world to join<br />me in my court at Camelot ...<br /><br />The BLACK KNIGHT remains silent<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />You have proved yourself worthy. ... Will you join me?<br /><br />Silence.<br /><br />| ARTHUR<br />| A man of your strength and skill would be the chief of all my knights ...<br />|<br />| BLACK KNIGHT<br />| Never.<br />|<br />ARTHUR<br />You make me sad. But so be it. Come Patsy.<br /><br />As he moves, the BLACK KNIGHT bars the way.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />None shall pass.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />What?<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />None shall pass.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />I have no quarrel with you, brave Sir knight, but I must cross this bridge.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />Then you shall die.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />I command you, as King of the Britons to stand aside.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />I move for no man.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />So be it!<br /><br />ARTHUR draws his sword and approaches the BLACK KNIGHT. A furious<br />fight now starts lasting about fifteen seconds at which point ARTHUR<br />delivers a mighty blow which completely severs the BLACK KNIGHT's left<br />arm at the shoulder. ARTHUR steps back triumphantly.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />Now stand aside worthy adversary.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />(Glancing at his shoulder)<br />'Tis but a scratch.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />A scratch? Your arm's off.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />No, it isn't.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />(Pointing to the arm on ground)<br />Well, what's that then?<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />I've had worse.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />You're a liar.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />Come on you pansy!<br /><br />Another ten seconds furious fighting till ARTHUR chops the BLACK<br />KNIGHT's other arm off, also at the shoulder. The arm plus sword, lies<br />on the ground.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />Victory is mine.<br />(sinking to his knees)<br />I thank thee O Lord that in thy ...<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />Come on then.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />What?<br /><br />He kicks ARTHUR hard on the side of the helmet. ARTHUR gets up still<br />holding his sword. The BLACK KNIGHT comes after him kicking.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />You are indeed brave Sir knight, but the fight is mine.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />Had enough?<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />You stupid bastard. You haven't got any arms left.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />Course I have.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />Look!<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />What! Just a flesh wound.<br />(kicks ARTHUR)<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />Stop that.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />(kicking him)<br />Had enough ... ?<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />I'll have your leg.<br /><br />He is kicked.<br /><br />Right!<br /><br />The BLACK KNIGHT kicks him again and ARTHUR chops his leg off. The<br />BLACK KNIGHT keeps his balance with difficulty.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />I'll do you for that.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />You'll what ... ?<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />Come Here.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />What are you going to do. bleed on me?<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />I'm invincible!<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />You're a loony.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />The Black Knight always triumphs. Have at you!<br /><br />ARTHUR takes his last leg off. The BLACK KNIGHT's body lands upright.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT<br />All right, we'll call it a draw.<br /><br />ARTHUR<br />Come, Patsy.<br /><br />ARTHUR and PATSY start to cross the bridge.<br /><br />BLACK KNIGHT <br />Running away eh? You yellow bastard, Come back here and<br />take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!"<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Al,<br />Don't be so hard on yourself. You probably would not turn into a drug abusing jerk. There are lots of people who have as many advantages as Barry Nonds has but who also have good natures and turn out fine. I think it takes an especially defective nature to be Barry Bonds. As for Cobb, life did hand him a difficult youth---but, again, I've known people with similar stories who turned out ok. They took two different paths and each ended up being a great hitter and a lousy human being. Neither seems especially enviable.<br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jeff, what caused Bonds to be the way he is? It had to be something in his childhood and upbringing. He didn't magically develop this personality on his own. Granted, seeing one parent shoot the other is pretty traumatic and extreme, but there were obviously things that happened in Bonds life that caused him to become the person that he is.<br /><br />Do you honestly think that media scrutiny in Cobb's day is anything close to what goes on today? If you do, you've lost all credibility with me.<br /><br />And to others that are joining in on the chorus of Cobb was a product of his generation, that's a completely bogus excuse. If that were the case, if every White attacked and tried to kill Blacks at the same rate that Cobb did, I'd venture guess that there wouldn't be too many Blacks left alive today in the US. Most people were racist back then, but most people didn't find it neccessary to attack Blacks on a regular basis either.<br /><br />All these posts just prove my point that people will let personal prejudices get in the way of facts to justify their opinions and find any excuse to protect those they admore, no matter how big a scumbag they are.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Jeff are you suggesting Cobb was not responsible for his own actions because he was mentally ill? In your opinion was he "insane" in the sense of the insanity defense? EDITED TO ADD Jay my "Cobb was the product of his generation" post was purely sarcastic by the way.