The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>When do you think Barry Bonds will hit number 756?<br /><br />And is it legit to you?<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>RC</b><p>Unfortunately, Barry has burnt a bridge for me. I am turned off by his attitude and obviously the pending allegations. He had an opportunity, in my opinion, to have been one of the most liked players in the history of the game.<br /><br />Still, has to be considered one of the best ever, but I think the record will be tainted in the views of many.<br /><br />RC

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>If I were a pitcher who worked hard and never took performance enhancing drugs, I would throw all of my pitches right at Barry Bonds knees every time I faced him.<br /><br /><br />David

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>where his career HR total should be truncated?<br />In other words, I don't think you should truly count any that he's hit since starting his "treatments"...I mean, why include those?<br /><br />So, no, I don't care, and if he reaches 756, and he is greeted with a muted response, I will roll around on the floor, laughing my *** off all night long!<br />edited to add: taking long pauses to take a breath, gather my composure, have some more beer and snacks, before beginning once again!

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>I hope he never makes it there. I think he will get injured and will call it quits. The record will be tainted if he breaks it. Hank Aaron desrves to still be the King. Being from Atlanta, I am bias...<br /><br />JC

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Hank Aaron.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>because he'll be in San Diego. I'd say he holds off and sets the record at home the following few days when the horrid Nationals come into town. Heck, with their lousy pitching he could be sitting at about 750 and still have a shot to pass Hank in that series. But 8/4, no, he wouldn't do that to us collectors, who will be preoccupied in Cleveland at the National. <br /><br />GO BARRY!!!

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Cy</b><p>I am amazed by all the people, especially on this board, who are so adamant against Barry Bonds. I would like to take a poll. If you believe that Barry Bonds is a cheat and either shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame or shouldn't have his home run record counted, if he breaks Aaron's record, answer me this question. <br /><br />Did Shoeless Joe Jackson cheat? Should we strike all of his records from the record book?<br /><br />It amazes me how some can be so vehement against Bonds, then give a blanket pardon to someone who was paid to throw a World Series. Let's assume for the record that both Jackson and Bonds cheated. Who is worse? Is Bonds worse for wanting to do <u>better</u> than he could by artificial means? Or is Jackson worse because he accepted money to allow <u>another</u> team to beat his team in the World Series?<br /><br />The anti-Bonds/cheating sentiment amazes me. Joe Jackson tried to throw a World Series. Now I know that some will say he really didn't. He just took the money but tried to win. I disagree. He took the money. Who knows when he tried to lose during that series even though his average was high. To say that Jackson took the money but didn't do anything wrong in the game would be like saying Bonds took steroids to help him sleep, not to help him hit baseballs. But Joe Jackson is treated as a god and Bonds as a demon. Face it, Joe Jackson took the money. If he takes the money in order to throw a World Series, shouldn't he be considered a cheat much worse than Bonds?<br /><br />So I am going to ask this another way. If a player on your favorite team had to either take steroids to improve his game or throw a World Series to another team, which player would you forgive first?<br /><br />Cy<br />

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>because you're from Atlanta...you are biased because you are an ethical person and a true fan of the game of baseball and are interested in its integrity.<br /><br />I am making some assumptions, since I have never met you, but I like to extend the benefit of the doubt! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I sincerely hope that Bonds doesn't even come close. Him breaking the record does nothing for the game of baseball but send a message that to be truly remarkable requires performance-enhancing drugs.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I love Barry Bonds and can't wait for him to break the record.<br /><br />Really.<br /><br />-Al

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Shoeless Joe cheated and still needs to buy a ticket to haul his carcass into the HOF.<br />Pete Rose cheated, hold the hit record, and shouldn't be allowed into the HOF.<br />I see no reason why we can't extend the same treatment to Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Rafael Palmeiro.<br /><br />Congratulations, they excelled at the game, but they didn't play it right, so we don't need to honor them for it.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Cy, I think the difference here is that none of us were around when Joe Jackson accepted money to throw the 1919 series - we also have never seen him act like an a-hole on a nearly 100% consistent basis.<br /><br />Barry has never really given a reason for us (The fans) to like him - so comparing him to Joe Jackson is like comparing apples and oranges.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Ken McMillan</b><p>I think the D. L. would be a great place for Barry to play. At least Aaron didn't cheat and hopefully the record will stand.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>RC</b><p>Really, Shoeless Joe has nothing to do with this topic. It is about Barry Bonds. Totally unrelated.<br /><br />A discussion about Jackson should be on another post.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>If Bonds' cheating involved throwing games, betting on games, being a racist, a mysoginist (did I spell that right?), a drunk, hell, anything that is part of the human condition and the world we live in....I could still look at his swing, his early base-stealing, his decent glove, and say "Seriously flawed individual, but UNDOUBTEDLY a GREAT - maybe ALL TIME GREAT baseball player".<br /><br />But to be honest, I have absolutely NO IDEA how good a hitter he really is, because he's been getting assistance hitting that piece of white leather for a long long time.<br />I know EXACTLY how good JJ's hitting abilities were, and were attested to being, and after that I make no great effort to espouse his personal integrity.<br /><br />So for me Bonds, he's not great, or A great. He's enhanced.<br />Kind of needs his own category really, where we can put all future enhanced McGwires, Sosas, and their ilk to compare like versus like.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>For the record, I'm not an anti-bonds-ite. I do believe what he did was wrong and I don't want his achievement to mar a great record.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Marty Ogelvie</b><p>Most of us have seen the move Eight Men out and Field of Dreams. In both instances, Shoeless Joe was portrayed as a pretty good fellow, naive but a good guy non the less. That's the character I think of when Shoeless Joe is mentioned. He may have been just the opposite, but I have not heard otherwise. So to me Joe was a good guy who did a dumb thing and he paid for it. <br /><br />Barry is an egotistacal jerk and he plays for the Giants. I despise him for that, not because he took steroids but if others want to use that excuse to kick him around some then so be it. I actually used to like Barry a lot when he played in Pittsburgh. I still like Mark McGwire. I hate the fact that he broke a sacred record using tainted methods but I still think he's a good guy. He gets a pass, Shoeless Joe gets a pass. Barry gets no pass, he wants no pass and deserves no pass. <br /><br />OT: My son, who plays coach-pitch, couldn't find his shoes the other day as we were getting ready to go to a game. I called him Shoe-less Joe Jackson (his name is Jackson), he didn't appreciate the nickname, but it stuck. My Shoeless Joe Jackson plays SS and Circle (pitching area) and hits lead off. He doesn't know how good he is and I hope he never finds out!<br><br>martyOgelvie<br />nyyankeecards.com

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That's my birthday...it would make it easy to remember!

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I'm going to make the debate hotter. Let's say Barry is not nominated to the All-Star team this year, but is on the verge of breaking the record. Do you think, Bud Selig should make him an honary member of this year's all-star team.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>When somebody can prove to me unequivocally that:<br /><br />1) Hank Aaron did not do anything illegal during his career, despite the prevalence of amphetamines in major league clubhouses in the 1960s,<br /><br />2) Barry Bonds was the ONLY player in his era to do steroids, and NEVER faced a pitcher on steroids<br /><br />3) By taking steroids, Barry was not doing EXACTLY what Major League Baseball was practically inviting him to do by having a toothless banned substance policy and endorsing the greatness of the McGwire vs. Sosa home run rance<br /><br />then I will wipe Bonds out of my memory banks altogether.<br /><br />Until then, he is an absolutely phenomenal athlete, an incredible baseball player, SO far ahead of all his peers that it's ridiculous. And while his obvious steroid abuse may have turned some flyouts into home runs, it may also have turned some line drive singles into long flyouts, etc. He's still got 8 Gold Gloves, 400 (I believe) stolen bases, and a monster on base percentage, none of which are aided by steroid use. Furthermore, he's got multiple MVP awards that were won before it's universally accepted that his bulbous head began inflating (and should have won one more, but some people apparently thought that Terry Pendleton was more deserving).<br /><br />The fact of the matter is that the man is a GREAT player, one of the absolute best ever. He's an idiot for tainting his legacy by ingesting every conceivable chemical that could add to his musculature, but then again, so are a great deal of other athletes, dating back years. <br /><br />Hank Aaron was a great player - in my opinion, one of the top 7 or 8 ever. But I don't know he never cheated. I don't know Roger Maris never cheated. In fact, if Maris was playing today, we'd all be questioning how he could have ONE great year, during which time his hair was falling out in clumps, and then he suddenly suffered a rash of injuries that ultimately ended his career - all signs of steroid use in baseball.<br /><br />What I do know, is that cheating has been a part of baseball since the day they started paying players to play. When we talk about John McGraw cheating, we talk about it with reverence. When we talk about Whitey Ford cheating, we talk about it with humor. When we talk about Barry Bonds cheating, we talk about it with anger.<br /><br />I cannot wait for him to break the record. He may be a cheater, he may be a jerk, but he's following a rich tradition of cheaters and jerks who were also amazing baseball players. And like every other cheater and jerk who played, 30 years from now they'll talk less about the negative, and more about what a great player he was.<br /><br />In my opinion, of course.<br /><br />-Al

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>I don't.<br />But I don't think I will need to worry about that happening either, because last I checked, Bud Selig is even less of a Barry Bonds fan than am I...<br /><br />

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jason,<br /><br />The All-Star game will be in SF, Barry's hometown, you have to honor one of the best of all-time in his hometown.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Cy, what records of Joe Jackson's do you want to erase??<br /><br />As far as I can remember without looking it up, Joe Jackson has NO records!!!<br /><br />Season or career record for hits?? NO<br />Season or career record for Average?? NO<br />Saeson or career record for anything else?? NO<br /><br />Do you mean erase his stats??<br /><br />Bonds has or is close to the season and career Home Run record, the season and career Walks record, the season and career Intentional Walks record, season and career On Base Percentage record, season and career Slugging Percentage record, season and career OPS record, most career Runs, most career RBI, most career Total Bases, first to 500 Home RUns and 500 Stolen Bases and some more I am probably forgetting. All of this because of performance enhancing drugs. These are RECORDS for all of history to look back on.<br /><br />I read a story about Bonds a little over a month ago written by or based on what a Trainer or some other San Francisco Giants employee said. In the article, he said Bonds jersey size increased from like a 44 to a 52, his shoe size increased from a 10 to a 13 1/2 and his cap size increased from a 7 something to over an 8. This was all from the time Barry joined the Giants. What normal person's body increases in size (in those areas) like that after puberty??<br /><br />To me, Bonds stats before 1998 are probably legit. After 1998, I would use a percentage scale (maybe 40-50%) to see what his stats would have been if he hadn't used drugs.<br /><br />If Bonds hadn't used drugs, his stats would not have been so GREAT the last nine years. He would not have been so feared and he would not have been named MVP as many times. Just think of how a "clean" player felt when he saw Bonds cheating and getting an MVP award?? Especially if that player had a CAREER year and was also in contention for an MVP Award?? History, at least for that player, would look more favorably on him, especially if he had an above average career and was on the margin for the Hall of Fame.<br /><br />Joe Jackson was only one person involved in throwing the 1919 World Series. Bonds has been screwing with the entire game for 10 YEARS!!!!

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>it seems like your argument assumes that Barry Bonds' behavior is ok simply because "everyone else has done it-or may have done it" and we shouldn't penalize him any moreso than anyone else.<br />I would agree that we shouldn't hold him to any different level of accountability than his baseball peers, but I disagree in saying that his behavior is acceptable because it's all relative to what others may have done.<br /><br />You are more than right that he accomplished some amazing things on the diamond before he started doing whatever he did to his body, and it is sad that he felt he needed to do the drugs (maybe in response to being left out of the McGwire-Sosa attention/lovefest), because I would love to have seen what he could have done without going down that path...<br /><br />Aside from all the drug controversy, he engenders so much dislike among fans because he openly disregards our attention. I don't know why someone would honestly like a guy who constantly behaves as though (and says that) he doesn't care about you...like some sort of dysfunctional relationship.<br /><br />Peter,<br />It may be in SF, but I still would be surprised if Bud Selig felt compelled enough to do something for him...but we'll see! (He'll probably get voted in anyways...)<br /><br /><br /><br />

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>"He's still got 8 Gold Gloves, 400 (I believe) stolen bases, and a monster on base percentage, none of which are aided by steroid use". Really?<br /><br />Lets just for a minute remember what steroids do. It's not that they give you power to hit home runs or materialize the statistics next to your name. Or make you faster on the basepaths. They GIVE you the ability to train and have your muscles repair themselves from the intense training, so that you can continue training. Thats how you get bigger, thats how you can build more of that 'fast twitch' muscle that allows you to explode yourself into activity. Its how you run faster (see Ben Johnson and innumerable track athletes). Its how you everything. I could get a decent OBP if pitchers facing me were scared witless I was going to crack one out of the park at any given moment. An 'un-enhanced' Bonds would have broken down under the training load many times, had injuries that took from his game, had down years, and probably would have been an even bigger SOB because no-one would have been fawning over him at every moment.<br /><br />And the comparison to Aaron is kind of silly. Amphetamines may hype you up when you're feeling low, but have you ever attempted to complete a controlled series of actions while taking speed? Ahh, not so easy. Try standing still at the plate long enough for the ball to arrive and not go 'down the pitch' to the pitcher looking for it. I also think its safe to say that the physical and mental deterioration that goes on with prolonged amphetamine usage makes it incredibly obvious to ANYONE within 30 feet of the individual that something is seriously wrong with them. You don't play 20 years of hitting 40 run homers, hang out with team mates, hang out signing autographs, do PR for the club, etc. for 20 YEARS if you are a dope fiend. At some point 5-10 years in, your whole world simply falls apart.<br /><br />Honestly, I have no idea how you can compare the two.<br /><br /><br />Sincerely<br />Daniel

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Daniel- he passed 500 stolen bases!

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jason,<br /><br />BB is a superstar at the tail end of his career. It would be proper for him to be an honorary member of the team this year. Bud Selig should be above the politics surrounding baseball.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Barry, I was only quoting Al.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>The HR has been cheapened too much over the last twenty or so years for me too get too excited about it. When Aaron played thirty HRs a year was considered outstanding, forty made you a big star and fifty a HOFer. In Aaron's last season Graig Nettles LED the AL with thirty-two HRS. Nowadays we get guys like Dante Bichette and Greg Vaughn hitting forty and fifty.<br /><br />Make the parks bigger, get rid of the performance enhancing drugs, maybe deaden the ball or raise the mound and then it will be exciting when my nephew hits his 756th HR in 2045.<br /><br />Howard

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />What message does it send to other players and especially youngsters that someone under investigation for perjury and drug abuse be given an Honorary position on the All-Star team??<br /><br />It would be bad enough that he is voted onto the team let alone be GIVEN a special invite by the Commish.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Howard,<br /><br />You bring up another good point; the mound was higher during a major portion of Aaron's career. I would love to have the steroids taken out of the game and the mound raised and see what today's hitters would do. <br /><br />My hope for Bonds is that he hits a Home Run early in the season and just after he touches home plate, his heart explodes and he dies on the field. That image would be burnt into people's minds forever and would send a strong message to the youth of the world about messing with performance enhancing drugs.<br /><br />My second hope would be for Bonds wife to catch him with one of his mistresses........

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Does the winning league of the AS game still get home field advantage in the World Series? If so then Bud Selig shouldn't be putting anyone on either AS team....not that I think he would anyway.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Howard, Jason<br /><br />If BB isn't going to be honored by an invitation to be on the All-Star team, then why celebrate the breaking of Aaron's record at all.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>I think the real question is when will Barry pass Bruce Bochy for the biggest hat size in MLB history?

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Now you're coming around!<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Like the Soup Nazi on Seinfeld said, "No celebration for you!"

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Daniel:<br /><br />Sounds great, but Bonds hasn't stolen more than 15 bases in a season or won a gold glove since 1998, which is two years before most people speculate that his steroid use began.<br /><br />And anyone who denies that amphetamine use was rampant in baseball in the 1960s and 70s hasn't been reading their history. They most definitely were. BOWLS full in major league clubhouses. Taken on a regular basis by many players, and at least occasionally by huge numbers. <br /><br />We can pretend it's not true, but that doesn't make it not true.<br /><br />Lastly, Jason, I need to be clear: I'm not saying that what Bonds did was okay because everyone else did. I'm saying that his numbers are overwhelming DESPITE the fact that so many others did steroids as well. Compare Bonds' offensive stats to the rest of the league during the last six or seven seasons. WIth the exception of Pujols, there's not anyone even close. And I think it's safe to say that a LOT of players are on the same juice as Bonds.<br /><br />So it can't just be the juice that's making him perform so well.<br /><br />Furthermore, it seems like pitchers juice just as much as hitters. When Jason Grimsley throws 88 MPH his whole career, then all of a sudden his fastball jumps into the mid 90s, you've GOT to suspect something's going on with the pitchers. And like it or not, when it's hit on the nose, a 98 MPH fastball is going to travel a longer distance than an 88 MPH fastball. So how many of Bonds' home runs - or everyone else's, for that matter - are a result of juiced-up pitchers who still throw the ball right down the middle? And should we penalize the hitters for that?<br /><br />Bottom line, IMO - there are WAY too many variables that enter into the equation - steroids or not - for me to feel comfortable judging.<br /><br />And while I agree that Bonds is the most dislikeable guy in the game, I couldn't care less about that when I'm evaluating a player's ability to play.<br /><br />-Al<br />

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Barry Bonds Sucks.<br />I have told him that many times from the Dodger Stadium left field lodge seats <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />My opinion and I am sticking to it.<br />

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jason,<br /><br />If Bud Selig doesn't celebrate BB's achievement he will be telling the World that baseball is in a horrible mess. Well, is it.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>from the bowl in the 60's, 70's, AND 80's AL.<br /><br />Now tell me which players statistics JUMP off the page at you to suggest that using Uppers seriously enhanced their playing abilites?<br /><br />Again, use mind altering drugs that physically change the composition of your brain over extended periods, and I'll show you 3-7 year careers with a couple of good seasons, and LOTS of ups and downs. Nothing more.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Baseball doesn't have to celebrate BB passing Aaron's record. Let the SF Giants have their own celebration or whatever. I'm sure that Bud Selig has looked into ways to get Bonds out of baseball, but the players union is too powerful to ever make it happen.<br /><br />IMO the only thing that Bonds will accomplish by passing Aaron's record is to make himself even more reviled than he already is.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Peter, I wasn't actually saying MLB shouldn't celebrate it just that it won't mean anything to me. As for putting Bonds on the all star team, Dan makes a good point. If the game is supposed to mean something then Selig should not put anyone on the rosters who was not legitimately chosen.<br /><br />You also make a good point that not having a celebration will add fuel to the notion the there is something rotten going on in MLB.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Roger Maris.<br /><br />Here's some interesting "before and after" figures that compare Bonds to the rest of the league, if you assume that Bonds' steroid use began in the year 1998.<br /><br />All-Star Appearances - Before: 7, After: 6<br />MVP Awards - Before: 3 (and he should have won in 1991), After: 4<br />Gold Gloves - Before: 8, After: 0<br />Silver Sluggers - Before: 7, After: 5<br />On Base Percentage (Led League) - Before: 4, After: 4<br />Slugging Percentage (Led League) - Before: 3, After: 4<br />OPS (Led League) - Before: 5, After: 4<br />Total Bases (Led League) - Before: 1, After: 0<br />Home Runs (Led League) - Before: 1, After: 1. That's right. He only led the league in HR one time after 1993. <br />Walks (Led League) - Before: 5, After: 6<br />Extrta Base Hits (Led League) - Before: 2, After: 1<br />Intentional Walks (Led League) - Before: 6, After: 5<br /><br />Between 1990 and 1998, Bonds averaged about 36 home runs per year. Between 1998 and 2006, he averaged 44. Take out the one monster season and he's averaged 40. Either way, while he may not have broken Aaron's record without the steroids, he would likely have eclipsed Mays, and perhaps Ruth, anyway. Steroids or not, one of the greatest ever.<br /><br />-Al

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Ken McMillan</b><p>Well Peter, <br /><br />I do not believe anybody should automatically be on an all star team regaurdless of their stats and history. It is an honor that needs to be earned!!! It starts with playing great ball and then continues with being beloved by you fans. Bonds has done neither as of recent. He is no different than anyone else and will need to earn a spot on the team. No such thing as an honorary spot should be available. My thoughts, <br /><br />Ken

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dean H</b><p>This may not be relevant, but nobody ever brings up Gaylord Perry when cheaters are talked about. I believe the spitball was illegal but he made a HOF career out of it. And I don't think he was too hush hush about it. Should he be kicked out of the HOF?? I only bring it up because if we are going to treat B.B. as a cheater, then we need to be equally demanding of other cheaters. Are home runs more important that pitching wins?? I also don't want to come across as letting B.B. slide either. I'm no no Barry Bonds fan so I really don't have a dog in the fight. I just like consistancy. I think most people don't like B.B. because he seems to be a first class A-hole, but I also have to admit I have personally never been around him, just what I see and hear in the media. So it's difficult to separate the personality from the ball player. Good thing Ty Cobb didn't paly today.<br /><br />Dean

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>It's more than a notion that something rotten is going on in MLB. We know for a fact that Bonds has used a performance enhancing drug. Nobody's feet grow 3 1/2 shoe sizes at the age of 36-40. Why should MLB celebrate Bonds? I think it's fine if SF wants to do something special for him I have no problem with that, but if MLB goes out of their way to do something then they're just wasting money and pretending that the country outside of SF supports Bonds.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dean H</b><p>I think an argument could me made that Bonds was a potential HOF before 1998. It is a difficult situation with valid points on both sides.<br /><br />DEan

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />The Baseball Almanac lists over 20 ballplayers that have been nominated honorary captains of All-Star teams. If Barry Bonds is approaching one of our hallowed records, shouldn't he be an honorary captain.<br /><br />Also, if all is right with baseball, then MLB should celebrate the breaking of Aaron's record.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Al, there is no doubt that Bonds was a tremendous player pre-steroids and he became an unbelievable player post-steroids. It is also true that Ken Lay was a wealthy man before he took over as CEO of Enron.<br /><br />

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Peter, I don't see it happening. Selig hates Bonds - he ain't going to do it.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />You can't seriously compare BB to Kenneth Lay. Mr. Lay destroyed his company and had his day in Court. Barry hasn't.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>Bonds took steroids. He can't give you a straight answer about it which is funny. Its always "not knowingly took steroids..." <br /><br />He could have been taking steroids most of his career for all we know and not just since he broke the single season HR record. Actually, Marris should still hold that record because MacGwire and Sosa were obviously on steroids too during that time. I also heard somewhere that Roger Clemens took steroids. I think if the records were made public, over 50% of the 30+ HR 100+ RBI guys took steroids at one point. <br /><br />Also, its not like it takes much skill anymore to hit HRs... I mean, look at the terrible pitchers in the majors... they should be in the minor leagues. Its just like every major sport. There are wayyyyyyy too many teams in baseball, hockey, football and basketball. Too many teams = too many sub par players filling the roster who normally wouldn't make it in the big leagues before all of this expansion.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Peter my analogy was that Mr Lay was rich before he plundered. Bonds was great before he juiced.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Steve f</b><p>ch ch ch changesssssss...<br /><br />God, I hope he pulls up lame.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1175290005.JPG">

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Look how skinny he was! He doesn't look like he could even hit one to the warning track with that build. People often gain weight as they age, but mostly with extra helpings of mashed potatoes.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />This whole steroids problem blew up during Bud Selig's term. He needs to take some responsibility for this steroid mess. But he won't, I say he's going to pretend nothing has happened and will celebrate Barry's breaking of Aaron's record.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The steroid era goes back to Giammati's term. Anyone remember the offensive explosion of 1987? Canseco claimed he was juicing all the way back at the start of his career. This is not to say that Selig doesn't shoulder some of the blame of looking away because by 1998 it was obvious to most baseball insiders that something was going on with regards to steroids. You should also remember that the players union until recently has fought every effort to have players tested for drugs.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />And although Selig knew that both McGwire and Sosa were probably juiced he cheered long and hard for McGwire to break Roger Maris' record.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>One difference between Perry's brand of cheating and Bonds' alleged cheating is that Perry's opponent had the right to ask the umpire to check for anything illegal while a particular game was going on. A team victimized by a steroid abuser has no remedy other than to wait for him to fail a random drug test. Perry was accused over and over again during his career and seldom, if ever, caught. This suggests that he was either damn good at cheating(a talent in itself) or that he dealt mostly in mind games, making the hitter think that he doctored the ball.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Peter, he may have had suspicions, but he couldn't have asked for anything better to lure fans back after the disastrous 1994 season than a run at Maris's record. If you think Selig is looking at Bonds breaking Aaron's record as a positive for baseball then I think you need to take off your homer tinted glasses.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Art,<br /> <br />Great stats, here's one that you should have included:<br /><br />1998 and before he hit 411 HRs in 7024 at bats (about 1 every 17.1 AB)<br />1999-2006 he has hit 323 in 2483 at bats (about 1 every 7.7 AB) <br /><br />The only thing that skews the above stat is that his HR/AB numbers were probably in the HR / 13AB range for the 4 years prior to his new found ability to jack the ball even harder. But I figure even if he was cranking the ball at that clip he'd still probably slow down like most ball players do when they reach 40. Remember, he'll be 43 at mid season. <br /><br />If you extrapolate his 2483 AB at the prior HR rate he'd be up to about 546 HRs today. I suppose you couldn't really use that stat because the pitchers saw a big difference between Bonds post 1998. <br /><br />Pitchers walked him 1357 times in 1898 games (1998 and before). That's .715 BB per game.<br />Pitchers walked him 1069 times in 962 games (1999-2006). That's 1.11 BB per game, a huge increase. <br /><br />That could be an arguement why his HR total is only 546 at a constant rate of 17.1 AB. I figure he could be near 600 if he was walked at the old rate and without the juice. That's still nice territory. He may not have passed his uncle Willie had he done it au natural. <br /><br />Bond's is still a great player, roids or not - I just think that Bonds HR total makes Aaron's number something to be in awe of. <br /><br />

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />I think that Bud Selig and MLB is going to celebrate Bonds breaking of the record like there was never a steroid scandal. MLB is still in denial, they actually believe that they have the problem under control.<br /><br />They are very aware that there will be a new U.S. Attorney in CA and that by the time he gets up to speed, Barry would be long gone and unlikely to be indicted.<br /><br />They are going to take a calculated gamble.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Peter, the verdict of public opionion is already out. Bonds used steroids, HGH or any other number of performance enhancing drugs. I don't really care what MLB or the California AG think or what they are doing. Barry Bonds is despicable and any celebration of his "accomplishments" is a waste of time. The only thing I dread more than Bonds breaking the record is ESPN showing every single Bonds AB.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Fred, yes, there's no doubt that his home run output increased after 1998, by about 8 per year (not counting the one big year).<br /><br />When looking at Bonds, I factor out the years from 1986 through 1989, because he was just a skinny kid who was still developing. I also factor out 2005, when he was hurt for most of the year.<br /><br />One thing that has blown me away about Bonds has been his plate discipline. He began drawing walks at a high level in 1989 when he walked 93 times. He eclipsed 100 for the first time in 1991, then brought things to a new level in 1992 by walking 127 times. Except for 1994 (strike), he eclipsed 120 walks each year until 1996, when he jumped to 150. He then began posting absolutely astronomical walks numbers in the 73-homer season of 2001 (177 walks), hit 198 walks in 2002, and a ridiculous 232 walks in 2004.<br /><br />I will not deny this man is doped up under whatever he can get his hands on.<br /><br />But I will also point out a STAGGERING batter's eye. Only Ted Williams drew close to the number of walks per season on a consistent basis. Walking 120 times a year requires insane discipline, and Bonds has done it TEN TIMES (and he walked 115 times last season).<br /><br />I realize that his bulk enables him to hit the ball farther. But his EYE enables him to hit the ball at all - or draw a walk. And if you look at home runs per at bat, you see one thing. If you look at home runs per plate appearance, the increase is not quite as dramatic. 18.5 between 1990 and 1998, and 12.3 between 1998 and 2006 (not counting 2005, when he was hurt).<br /><br />In other words, balls that were outs before 1998 are walks today. Wouldn't it make sense, that if he's improved his eye in terms of which pitches to let go, wouldn't he have also improved his eye in terms of which pitches to HIT?<br /><br />And yes, he's taken an inordinate amount of intentional walks. But how many of them were "Barry Bonds is a bloated juice-hound who will hit the ball to Saturn if I throw him a strike" intentional walks, and how many were "Barry Bonds is the only guy in this lineup who can hit, so I'll just walk him and pitch to Benito Santiago" intentional walks?<br /><br />I don't know the answer.<br /><br />So I don't know how many home runs are attributable to steroids and how many are attributable to a smaller park, a better batting eye, steroid use among pitchers, bad expansion-era pitching, and wind in San Francisco. So until someone can give me a mathematically correct number for each of those variables, I prefer to say that Barry is a tremendous talent who will break Hank Aaron's home run record. <br /><br />-Al

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Al,<br /><br />It's probable that Barry will break the record, but will MLB celebrate the breaking of the record. Sure they will because they have always protected the bottom line and the bottom line is MLB will make plenty of bucks from the breaking of the record.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I think it will be a subdued celebration. Justafiably so. As mentioned earlier, MLB does need to acknowledge the record when it's broken.<br /><br />I believe Bonds will retire after he breaks the record, and he'll go quietly into the sunset.<br /><br />The celebration will be much larger in a few years when Alex Rodriguez breaks Bonds' record. Once again, justafiably so. Hopefully by then Alex will have learned to keep his feet on the ground and out of his mouth so that fans start liking him again.<br /><br />-Al

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Al, no doubt Bonds is a good athlete but the problem I have is he CHEATS!!!<br /><br />He cheated on his wife with numerous mistresses. <br />He cheated on his taxes (being paid for baseball card shows and memorabilia sales and not reporting the income). He then used that money to pay for his mistreses.<br />He cheated in baseball.<br /><br />As far as his eyesight goes, one of the (many) drugs he used was an animal hormone or derivative (I think). One of the benefits of that drug was increased eye acuity. So, as other athletes aged and their eyesight decreased, Bonds eyesight actually got better. Combine that with his other drug use which increased his ability to work out and shortened the amount of recovery time and you get a guy who is stronger and can see the ball better. So, fly balls (instead of Strike Outs) to the warning track are now going into McCovey Cove.<br /><br />A better batting eye means more Walks and those enhanced Home Runs means more pitchers (and Managers) not wanting to pitch to Bonds, therfor, more Int BB's.<br /><br />I will (grudgingly) give Bonds 500 Home Runs, 400 Stolen Bases, 2,000 Hits and 1,500 RBI. Those are Hall of Fame numbers. However, even those might be tainted because he could have been abusing pharmaceuticals before 1998.<br /><br />The bottom line is, he IS NOT as great as his numbers look. If he had not taken drugs, gotten bigger, stronger and had improved eyesight, his numbers would be nowhere near what they are now. Heck, without the drug enhancement, Bonds could have become what Ken Griffey Jr is now, a broken down has been who is a shade of his former self (and I am a Reds fan).<br /><br />As far as being a dick, he either inherited or learned that from his father.<br /><br />Another thing about Bonds, a few years ago he had that news conference with his kid and said something like, "what do you want me to do, jump off a building?" and then went on to whine about taking his money away and "taking food out of my kid's mouths" yada yada yada. No Barry, you buying condos in Vegas for your mistress is taking money away from your kids and food out of their mouths.<br /><br />The last thing that will happen (and he has already started down this path) is if he is indicted, found guilty and imprisoned or if he is kicked out of baseball before breaking Aaron's record, he will use the race card and deflect all responsibility away from himself.<br /><br />Poor Barry will be the victim. It wasn't his fault women liked him. So much so, that he went to bed with them. It wasn't his fault his income wasn't reported to the IRS. It wasn't his fault the "flaxseed oil" was steroids, HGH or whatever else he ingested. It is all a big conspiracy by the rest of humanity to get poor little Bearwy Bonds.<br /><br />This is my last post about Bonds because just thinking about him (and all of the people he has screwed over) makes my blood pressure rise.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>David,<br /><br />I am like Barry Bonds. I too am guilty of ingesting ingredients to improve my visual accuity. In fact it's the same ingredient that makes me want to be like Barry and cheat on my wife. Consuming this ingredient also gives me increased energy to chase women to whom I'm not married. It makes truly plain women LOOK incredible (thus enhancing my visual accuity to see more than others). It hasn't made me cheat on my taxes yet, but if I have enough of it I just might try it. <br /><br />BEER - lots of it. Go to a bar and around 1AM all the women look beautiful and I have the feeling of invincibility and charisma which allows me to pursue these other women that aren't my wife. I don't know what it is about BEER that has this affect on me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br /><br />Art,<br /><br />You are right, Bonds has great presence at the plate and he does have a great batters eye. He's learned the strike zone and he uses it to his advantage. I would guess that a lot of umpires probably give him the extra few inches on a smaller strike zone that makes the difference between a good hitter and a great hitter. Not many players are as disciplined. <br /><br />Edited to add - July 29, 2007....my guess. Hopefully he breaks a leg in May or June.... that's right I'm a mean and nasty person... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>Wow. Amazing the opinions when 1 name is mentioned. No one makes it in the HOF because they are Saints, they make it in because they are great Baseball players. So Bond off field persona has nothing to do with HOF worthy or not. Babe Ruth was far from a Saint and no one questions his off field antics. Cabby's carrying Ruth used to stop at 2 or 3 womens houses before a game. Did the subject of Ruth cheating on his wife stop him from the HOF? I can name dozens of ball players that are not nice people but the are in. Wasn't Mantle greatest memory at a ball park preformed before a game behind the bleachers? Not quite Saintly. I'm not a Bonds fan, but he's getting the record and he's getting in. McGuire and Sosa too. <br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>I said I wasn't going to post anymore about this subject but I just have to.<br /><br />Joe, my point about Bonds was that he is an all-around cheat. Women, taxes, baseball.... Just as long as Barry is right, successful and the center of attention, it doesn't matter to him. But just wait until when things start crumbling, it wont be Barry's problem it is going to be somebody else's fault.<br /><br />When mentioning Ruth, Mantle, Berra, Billy Martin and other known partiers, it is a wonder they accomplished the things they did. Their lack of off season conditioning combined with their drinking, smoking, poor eating habits and womenizing during the season means they were out of shape, tired and often times hung over. Take those things away and they not only might have put up better stats during the time they played but they might also have played longer, thus making Bonds "accomplishments" not look so great.<br /><br />What those guys ingested HURT their careers. What Barry ingested HELPED his.<br /><br /> <br />As far as Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmiero et al, just ask Frank Robinson what he thinks of most of these "Home Run hitters" of the last 20 years.... <br /><br /><br />David

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>he was on the roids for 3 yrs , and it added 35 extra hr's,do you honestly think that he would quit with his ego had he not SUPPOSEDLY took the roids?<br /><br />leave him be, unless he plays 5 more years, Alex Rodriguez is going to surpass him ,so what is the difference.<br /><br />Roids didnt teach him how to drive the ball ,this man has a swing!<br />Chokes up on the bat a little and uses the barrel like no other, roids doesnt teach that. I suppose theory has it that roids make a person drive the ball 80 ft farther ?...seems like it would slow the bat speed down with the extra weight. He doesnt loop his swing. All this does is just gives society extra stuff to bitch about....typical today.<br /><br />Some of you really do not know just how hard it is to hit a baseball.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>"Leave him be"?<br /><br />Just wondering Dan, are you his godfather?<br />Oh yeh, I forgot, I haven't heard Mays stick up too often through the years for the narcissist punk 'playa' that is Barry Bonds....<br /><br />Well. Good luck if he's a character you'd like kids to admire, and admire they will if the trail of personal refuse that is his contribution to the game is left un-challenged.<br /><br />It's going to take 20 years and an entire new generation who INSIST THEMSELVES on testing ALL PLAYERS 6-12 a year using the latest lab procedures, and punishment that registers a two-time lier lost to the game, for MLB to mean something really special again.<br /><br />So, "thanks" to all those who've sullied the game so incredibly, and I'll include all those who don't have the guts to out the cheats and money grubbing arrogant no-bodies who don't care diddly squat about the game, because of some dumbass insecurity and me first mentality they like to snickeringly refer to as a players code.<br /><br />But then, ask me what I really think of athletes like Barry Bonds <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br />Ps. Other codes may be just as dirty but at least those who preside over their governing call a thug a thug, and a cheat nothing more than a sissy.<br />Give me the violent men in shoulder pads anyday. At least they know how lucky they are for most would be zeroes in society without the game they play.<br />

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>King Kelly jumped out from the bench and inserted himself into a game so he could catch a foul popup.<br /><br />John McGraw would hold onto the belt buckle of a tagging baserunner at third, to slow him up.<br /><br />Willie Keeler used to hide baseballs in the tall grass in right field. When an opposing player hit a ball over his head, Keeler would throw in one of the balls hidden in the grass.<br /><br />The 1894 Orioles would run directly across the diamond from first to third while the umpire wasn't looking. They also angled the baselines, grew the infield grass long and kept the dirt around the plate hard, to promote infield hits. Lots of teams have done this since.<br /><br />Eddie Roush held out for more money.<br /><br />Lots of players - including Walter Johnson, for a few days - broke their contracts and jumped to the Federal League for more money.<br /> <br />Many teams stole signs by positioning a man with binoculars in the scoreboard.<br /><br />Joe D and Lou Gehrig both held out for bigger contracts.<br /><br />Whitey Ford scuffed baseballs.<br /><br />So did Roy Campanella.<br /><br />Tom House admitted to taking steroids in the 1960s, and said that LOTS of pitchers took them.<br /><br />Graig Nettles got caught with superballs in his bat in 1974.<br /><br />Gaylord Perry defaced baseballs.<br /><br />So did Joe Niekro.<br /><br />So did Don Sutton.<br /><br />Amphetamine use was rampant in clubhouses in the late 50s through the 80s.<br /><br />Cocaine use was rampant among players in the 80s.<br /><br />Tim Raines used to slide head-first so as not to break the vial of cocaine he kept in his back pocket.<br /><br />Howard Johnson corked his bat.<br /><br />Mike Scott scuffed baseballs.<br /><br />Albert Belle corked his bat.<br /><br />Lenny Dykstra took steroids.<br /><br />Jason Grimsley took HGH.<br /><br />Mark McGwire took Androstendione.<br /><br />Jason Giambi injected steroids into himself on the team plane.<br /><br /><br /><br />They've been cheating and money-grubbing in baseball for as long as winning has been important. Barry Bonds doesn't deserve any different treatment than anyone else. If he gets caught and tests positive, he should be suspended. If he doesn't, that's life.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br /><br />

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>You obviously haven't seen the game and its players change much over the last 30 years, with regards to the game itself or their relationships with the public. Same ole same ole for you. Maybe just a big media concoction, ahh, I'd love some conspiracy in there too.<br /><br />I'm glad you're happy with today's mugs. There's maybe a dozen across the leagues I have much to any respect for.<br />I don't think they carry the collective jock of the players who came before them... in terms of what they give to the game versus what they take out. They have zero loyalty to the fans, zero loyalty to eachother, and not much loyalty to the game. There's not a Ted Williams or Roberto Clemente amongst them.<br /><br />But I'm glad for you that you don't see it that way. I'm sure you're able to enjoy the game a whole lot more than I am.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>What loyalty did Ted Williams have to the fans? Ted Williams HATED the fans.<br /><br />I get your point, though.<br /><br />It just bugs me that baseball seems to be the only major sport where the most knowledgeable fans refuse to acknowledge the greatness of the current players. Ask fans of the other major sports who the greatest players were, you'll hear names like Jordan, Gretzky, and Montana among those names. Ask baseball fans and you'll typically not hear Barry Bonds or Alex Rodriguez, great as those two players are.<br /><br />I don't get it.<br /><br />To me, the major change in the game happened in 1947. Aside from that, it's been mostly tweaks. That's what makes the game so great in my eyes - that you can trace John McGraw to Casey Stengel to Billy Martin to Lou Piniella.<br /><br />I can't wait til August 4, for all those reasons. It will be another day when another great player has another major achievement.<br /><br />And, as someone else mentioned, a few years later A-Rod will break it again anyway. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />-Al

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Ted Williams blamed the media for his strained relationship with the fans. He eventually made peace with the Boston fans. That was much more of a two way street. It's Barry Bonds who owes an apology to baseball fans....I won't hold my breath.<br /><br />As far as baseball fans not really acknowlidging today's players I think that's pretty much the way it has always been. Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe DiMaggio, Williams, Mays, Aaron...well not many of today's players can live up to those names. When you bring up names like Michael Jordan who else compares? Gretzky shattered records by more than double.

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>Silver King</b><p>It's all bad for the game. Bonds was a great player but tarnished his reputation. McGwire was great, tarnished his reputation. Pete Rose was great, tarnished his reputation. None of these guys should be in the hall of fame. They all had the chance but let addictions get in the way. Remove them all from the record books and reestablish Roger Maris as the home run leader. Bonds should retire to avoid the asterisks that will be placed next to his name if he breaks the record. Play by the rules and become a role model. <br><br>robert shaw

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Silver,<br /><br />You've just opened up another can of worms. You guys that want to hang Barry. If Barry breaks Hank's record, would you want Bud Selig to make an asterisk next to the record. If you do that you would have to put an asterisk after half the MVP winners in the last 10 years.<br /><br />Almost everybody agrees that it was a bad idea to put an asterisk after Roger Maris' record. Would you want to do the same to Barry.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Barry hits 2 homers during last preseason game. With other ballplayers it means absolutely nothing, with Barry though it's significant because of health concerns in the last couple of seasons. Furthermore, he hits pitchers during the season just like as if it were spring training.<br /><br />Peter

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>T E</b><p>Bonds is a total jerk. <br /><br />That said, it is his record. Pete Rose owns the record for hits lifetime. That doesn't put him near Ty Cobb.<br /><br />It is a different era. Genie is out of the bottle, along with the steroids, HGH, etc. 500 home runs means doodley these days. The game is what it is. I enjoy it to an extent.<br /><br />Here is a picture of Mr. Bonds taken with a special infra-red lense in the dark.<br><Img src="http://voot.pair.com/hoofaway/1staypuff.jpg">

The projection is August 4th!
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>On the professional level, everyone cheats. Hell, even down to the little leagues, lots of people cheat. They do what they need to in order to keep that edge that will allow them to stay in the top league. So get over the fact that Bonds "cheated".<br /><br />He didn't do this in a vacuum. Pretty much the rest of the league was/is juiced too. If juicing was the sole reason for his staggering numbers, then we should have seen a bunch of other players putting up similar numbers. No one has come close to what he has done. <br /><br />Blame steroids all you want, but pretty much everyone was/is juiced, so it's basically a level playing field for everyone.<br /><br />And I still say Clemens is just as juiced up as Bonds, but since he's white and likable, he gets a pass.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.