PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Won this one off Ebay, received it today....and, I am very disappointed. It does not look like an Ex card to me.<br />I can't blame the seller....but, I certainly do fault PSA.<br /><br />I paid more than I wanted to for this Evers....but, with a Sovereign 460 back....it is very, very tough to find. It<br /> is the 1st one I have seen in two years.<br />So, I hate to admit this; but, I was stuck paying for the # on this label. Guys, I know you are tired of hearing this<br /> from me.....but, this Grading business (in many instances) is just an "ARBITRARY ART"....and, not as "Professional"<br /> as we deem it to be. Basically, I am a collector of UN-GRADED cards and being forced to pay more for cards that<br />are supposedly "professionally graded" .... really "SUCKs" ! !<br /><br />This Evers card is no better than a Vg-Ex graded card, in which I would've paid 1/2 the amount that I paid for it.<br /><br />I'm curious how others on this Forum feel about the fact that a 3rd party can "DICTATE" how much you're going<br /> to pay for a card that you are interested in....when it should only be a judgement between Buyer and Seller ?<br /><br />And, with this card being O/C and the lower right corner flaw.....HOW DO YOU GUYS GRADE IT ?<br /><br />TED Z <br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/everssov460.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/beverssov460.jpg">

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It's a nice 4 except for the centering.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Cy</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />I am curious about something. Ted, did you see a scan of the card with the centering and lower right corner before you bought it? Or did you buy the card without looking at a scan?<br /><br />Cy

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, it's a 4 - but centering is not an issue for 4s as it is for 7s, 8s, etc.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>Having a Sovereign back should help the value. I agree with Barry. Should probably be in a PSA-4 holder, but with perfect centering could stretch it to a low end PSA-5<br /> Yes, grading companies are dictating the market.<br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Of course I saw it....but, the lower right corner flaw was not evident. And, I guess I was a fool for thinking<br /> that it was accurately GRADED.<br /><br />But, read again my post....the determining factor for acquiring this card was its Sovereign 460 back. This is<br /> an extremely rare back for this Evers card. And, I need it to complete my SOVEREIGN-only set.<br /><br />I'd have been very satisfied with a "NAKED" Vg-Ex card with this front/back combination......but, I was not<br /> going to wait another 2 years for it to surface.<br /><br />TED Z

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>"I'm curious how others on this Forum feel about the fact that a 3rd party can "DICTATE" how much you're going<br />to pay for a card that you are interested in"<br /><br />You must purchase graded cards differntly than I do, because nobody dictates how much I'm going to pay for a card but me.<br /><br />Yes, your card is overgraded, but that happens sometimes. Similarly, many of us get to take advantage of those awesome-looking cards that have a "2" or a "3" on the label despite having gorgeous fronts, but are downgraded due to minor back damage. We don't complain much about those, though.<br /><br />I think, Ted, that if that card was naked and you paid the same amount that you paid for it in the holder - entirely possible ,due to the scarcity of the card - you'd have nothing to complain about. You'd be thrilled to own a card you've been searching for, a little bummed about the price, but happy to have ended a two-year search. But since the card is encased in plastic, there's someone you can blame, other than yourself, for what you paid for the card. And that always feels good.<br /><br />However, when you sell the card a few years from now, and your eyes widen just a bit when you see the selling price, remember this thread.<br /><br />Personally I think it's a pretty cool card. And while it's overgraded for sure, I know that when I find a card I've been searching for, I'm not going to let a little thing like a number on a flip keep me from owning it. So given all that, I think you got it for a great price. Enjoy the card and don't worry about the grade!<br /><br />-Al

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Card prices are set by what the buyer is willing to pay, not the grading company.<br><br>Frank

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I've bought an awful lot of cards from ebay these past 8 years, and everything being the same (type, player,<br /> condition, etc.)....invariably, the Naked card will be 33 - 50% cheaper than the Graded card. Of course,<br /> you're risking that the Naked card might have been tampered with, but you try to minimize that by buying<br /> from sellers you know. Yes, I am thrilled that I finally acquired this Evers....but, I don't "feel good"<br /> by having someone to blame (as you stated).<br /><br />Now, I have not stated how much I paid for this Evers card, so how do you know what it cost me ?<br /><br />And, what makes you think I bought it for resale ?<br /><br />Actually, I intend to crack it open and insert it into its appropriate slot in a 15-pocket plastic sheet<br /> in my Sovereign set album.<br /><br />When you put together a 400+ (or 500+) card set, the savings on every card adds up by the time you<br /> complete it. And, that's why I am complaining about the un-merited cost of this particular card.<br /> Set collectors are having to pay higher prices to acquire Stars, nowadays, because most of them<br /> are being Graded. Even beat-up Stars are being Graded and that I don't understand. Can you explain<br /> why anyone would get a beat-up T206 Lajoie (for example)<br /> graded in a PSA 1 plastic ?<br />Is there really a worry that such a card was tampered with....that's really absurd if you stop to think<br /> about it ? <br /><br />TED Z

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted- I agree, but I've learned that there are inherent absurdities built into the whole grading system. Much of it is good, and some of it defies comprehension. You take the good with the bad. And the Lajoie in the PSA 1 holder may actually get more money than if it were sold raw.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p>Ted,<br /><br />I would have expected to receive a PSA 4 on that one. PSA in my experience does not put an O/C qualifier on cards that are lower than PSA 6. However, for PSA 5 and lower cards, some graders knock down the card one grade for being O/C while others ignore centering altogether. I think it is an inconsistency within the PSA grading system that they have not resolved. This card seems to have been graded by a grader who does not account for centering for PSA 5 and lower cards.<br /><br />Edited to add that it is my view that PSA has actually become a nominally TOUGHER grader (not easier as some would suggest) in recent years. Of course this is a gross generalization and exceptions are rampant. But your Evers is in one of the older (at least pre-2004) PSA holders.<br /><br />Scot

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ed Hans</b><p>A 3 1/2 with the centering. The grading companies will always be plagued with the gross inconsistencies that we see every day. A nice pickup all the same.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Ted:<br /><br />I don't know you at all, but I don't think you bought the card for resale. However, if I'm not mistaken, haven't you completed and sold multiple T206 sets? If I'm mistaking you for someone else on the board, I apologize, but if I'm not, well, I figure anyone who's managed to build a T206 set, sell it off, and build another one, won't have any qualms about selling off a Sovereign 460 Evers. So I figure eventually you'll sell it.<br /><br />As far as what you paid for the card, it frankly doesn't matter. You've been searching for it for two years. You own it now. Obviously you're not thrilled with the price, but it wasn't enough to keep you from buying it so it couldn't have been THAT ridiculous. Therefore, I think you got it for a great price. Congratulations. Enjoy the card. It might not be a 5, but it's still really nice-looking to me.<br /><br />As for why someone would buy a PSA 1 Lajoie in a holder, well, I'd imagine there are lots of reasons. But if I were building a graded set of T206s in low grades, I'd consider buying one already in the holder to avoid having to pay grading fees on a raw one.<br /><br />I'm building a low-grade T205 set in SGC holders. I've bought SGC 10 cards on purpose.<br /><br />Actually the other day I bought a T206 McGraw in a low-grade Beckett holder. I'm slowly doing T206 HOFers, and I like different backs, and this one had a Sovereign, so I bought it. It graded a 1.5. I was buying the card, though, it just happens to be encased in plastic. Eventually I'll crack it out and put it in an SGC holder with the rest of my HOFers.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Oh, another point - LOTS of times I see a raw card sell for more than it's graded counterpart. The graded one, say it's an SGC 40. You can look and see what other SGC 40s have sold for, see the range, and decide where in that range you think this particular SGC 40 belongs. Maybe it's a nice 40, maybe it's a weak 40, and you set your price accordingly.<br /><br />But the raw card, you can't really tell. Is it EX? EX-MT? VG-EX? Not sure. Card looks like it could be nice. Corners look good. Surface looks nice. Doesn't look like there's any creases. OK, I'll buy it for what an EX condition card would cost, and hope for the EX-MT grade. The card arrives, I send it in for grading...SGC 40. Oops. Scan didn't pick up the scratch on the back, the surface wrinkle, or the slightly clipped corner.<br /><br />-Al

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Perhaps you are referring to me....I sold my 1st T206 set (521 cards) about 10 years ago.<br /><br />Then I started a 2nd set which I called it complete with 520 cards (no Magie in this set).<br /> But, I didn't sell this set. I broke it up to start a 3rd set which comprises of all PIEDMONT<br />backs. This set I still have and I will not sell it, as it is sort of a "landmark" set. All 518<br /> cards are un-graded and they are in Ex condition. My Grandson, Ron, will inherit this set.<br /><br />I am now approaching completion of a 4th set of T206's, of which all have SOVEREIGN backs.<br />When completed, the 404 cards in this set are un-graded and their condition ranges from Good<br /> to ExMt. Grandson Ron will get this set, too.<br /><br />One final word regarding this "so-graded PSA" Evers card....Barry, Jeff, Scot, George, Ed, and<br /> Bill (emailed me) all agree with me that it is no better than VgEx.<br /><br />So, if it was an un-graded card that anyone of these six guys was offering me....we would be<br /> in agreement and settle at a reasonable price. You see Al, this is the way 1000's of BB card<br /> deals were transacted for decades prior to the recent BB card "grading mania". We did not re-<br />quire a "judge or jury" to tell us what grade our precious little pieces of cardboard merited.<br /><br />TED Z

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Ted, it sounds like you fell for the trap of looking at the number on the PSA label and not looking at the card. Sorry to hear that. I've been there before..many times...and I probably will fall for it a couple times more. Heck, just this past week, I fell for the trap by blindly buying three T206 cards graded SGC 50 that had paper loss on the front! I'm going to try to do better for myself in the future...hopefully you do too.<br /><br /><br />editing some grammar and spelling (not that it is good right now, but at least it is a little bit better)

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>I have been buying low grade T cards either in slabs or raw for the grand total of two months now off eBay. I primarily go after Brooklyn players but also collect different backs so I have a somewhat mixed collection of Superbas and other cards, probably averaging PSA 2 or 3, except I bust everything out and put the cards into 15 pocket sheets. I find the comfort level a bit higher when buying slabbed cards and I think the rise of slabbing has a lot to do with precisely that-buying cards off the web is a crapshoot. That's a pretty obvious statement but if you can't hold the card in your hand and examine it, then how do you buy something off the internet? You either trust the seller or the grading company; there is no alternative.<br /><br />By referencing a combination of completed eBay auctions and vintagecardprices.com (I have nothing to do with that site if it's not obvious, other than being a satisified customer) I've been able to avoid overbidding for the most part. T and E cards certainly are experiencing a price spike right now, but so are 60's Topps and and some other sets, so there is a temptation to bid high on old cardboard from many eras. The thirst for certain cards is presently intense among collectors. Some of it may be set registry mania but I think a lot of it is just good old supply and demand. <br /><br />Many things we used to go out and experience are now available in digital form. But there is still something tactile and satisfying about holding a card (or something else) as opposed to having a scan or printout of it. A lot of collectibles are going up right now beacuse of this I think. If you want to see prices that are really nuts, try vintage guitars-the ultimate tactile collectible. Again, it is supply and demand and true vintage items are pursued with vigor in that realm as well. I seem to be losing my point (thanks to some good Cotes de Rhone and long day) but I think it had something to do with lower-grade slabs having their place in the hobby so long as you know what you want to pay or bid for something.<br /><br />Ted, personally I am in awe of the way you are collecting T206. I'll probably end up going after the complete set (minus the big 6 to 8) as well since all signs seem to be pointing to it and I'm sure I will overspend on some cards. I will say this though; I have never regretted spending a bit too much for a card I want but always have regretted not bidding more for one that got away, slabbed or not. You seem a little disappointed in your Evers transaction but you do have possesion of a desirable card. It may not feel like it, but congratulations are in order!

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Maybe I misread this. Ted, I don't mean to speak for you and please ring in if I misstate anything here.<br /><br />I don't think Ted bought the card for the grade. He bought it because he needed the card, and then found that becuase it was misgraded he paid more than he should have.<br /><br />I also didn't take his posts to mean that the grade set his price, in that he couldn't set his price on his own - the "nobody should set your price but you - nobody sets my price but me" argument.<br /><br />I took it that he wanted this card and needed this card. He would have bought it raw, would have preferred to buy it raw, and in that case would have paid a fair price based on condition.<br /><br />But because it was graded he only had two choices: either pay the price that is set by people that DO buy the slab, not the card - ie, the price that other buyers will pay for the PSA 5 slab - or else not get the card at all.<br /><br />Not good choices, and I understand the frustration there. Sure he can say no one but me determines my price. But the fact of the matter is that there are buyers who will pay $XXX for a PSA 5 HOF'er. Those buyers set the price for that card, whether Ted likes it or not. If he doesn't like it then he can't get a card he needs.<br /><br />I feel the same way sometimes. I couldn't care less about slabs one way or another. But as more and more cards get slabbed and that increasingly becomes the only option, I am increasingly forced to pay a price that is set by people that buy the grade, not the card.<br /><br />So as much as we like to say buy the card, not the slab, as long as there are many others that WILL buy the slab we will no longer have those two choices. <br /><br />Our new choice may become: Buy the slab or don't buy anything. <br /><br />So if there's a card you really want or need, and most or all are slabbed, you have to suck it up and pay the slab price. Ouch once. Then to find out the slab was wrong - double ouch.<br /><br />I agree with Ted. I don't really object to grading, but as more and more cards become unavailable raw, I do kind of resent having to pay prices that are set by people that want to pay for a grade and not the card - despite all of our protestations to the contrary.<br /><br />Joann

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Ted's Sovereign 460 PSA 5 went for $410<br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230097389224" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230097389224</a><br /><br />The previous PSA 5 with a Sweet Caporal back went for $391<br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150093588667" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150093588667</a><br /><br />The PSA 5 with a Sweet Caporal back looks MUCH better than Ted's Sovereign 460. But what is the expected premium for the Sovereign 460 back? Ted says it is really tough to find. Let's assume the expected premium, given the same exact condition is $150. If that's the case, then Ted saved $130 from a true PSA 5 card...hey, maybe that is the price that a PSA 4 would go for. So it is very possible that Ted did not overpay, and that the underbidders were not bidding on the label...but in fact, he got a fair price for the card...a PSA 4 price for a card in a PSA 5 holder. <br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>i'd need better scans to determine the "blackness" on the bottom right corner wear. i know with my old scanner half of my EX cards look VG because it doesn't pick up corners very well. even if ted's card has that rounding corner i've seen similar cards in both sgc/psa holders...<br /><br />edit to add scot i tend to agree with most of your thoughts on the board but i'd have to say PSA's grading has gotten lax over the years. i literally cringe when looking at some 4s/5s recently graded by PSA.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>JOANN<br /><br />You perfectly described the dilemna that we Type, or Set collectors face on Ebay (or at Shows).<br />We are competing with buyers who aren't always interested in the card, but the # on the label.<br />And, those of us strictly interested in the card will have to resign to pay more than we want......<br />or pass....which is tough to do at times.<br /><br />KING<br /><br />I don't quite agree with your take, simply because the card, as it turns out, is less than Ex (PSA 5).<br />And, my opinion on the Grade of this card was DITTOed by 6 other members....therefore, you can<br />not say I'm just being subjective about the grade of this card. Your links provide us a perfect "A - B"<br /> comparison between the two PSA 5 Evers cards. Thanks for posting them.<br /><br />And, I don't buy #'s on labels, I didn't mind the O/C on the Evers, I just happen to miss the flaw<br />in the lower right corner. I admit I should have been more observant.<br /><br />In the real "un-plasticized world" this card would have sold in the range of $200 - 300, at best.<br />And, I wouldn't have any qualms about paying that amount.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>"In the real "un-plasticized world" this card would have sold in the range of $200 - 300, at best.<br />And, I wouldn't have any qualms about paying that amount."<br /><br />Ted, this is precisely the point I'm trying to make. You are implying that the plasticized world is bad. Yet YOU are the one who bought the card. Do you know that the underbidder is a cert buyer who was just looking for a PSA 5 HOFer? Of course not. You don't know that any more than I know why you paid $410 for the card. Perhaps the underbidder also thought the card should be a $200-300 card, and wanted to win it as badly as you so he put in a bid that was far higher than the card should sell for, just to be SURE he'd win it. And then you did the same thing. Perhaps the underbidder is, at this very minute, complaining about the cert buyer that paid $410 for a card that's not worth more than $200-300.<br /><br />If you read my original post, I agree - the card is overgraded. You bought it anyway. You can blame the plastic all you want, but the bottom line is that YOU bought it. You didn't have to, but you did. In fact, you placed FOUR bids on the card, and each bid was for more money than you thought the card was worth. You say the card is worth $200-300, but your first bid was for $333.77, and you made that bid just one day after the auction listing began. Then, with bidding on the card at $344, you placed a bid of $355.55. Less than 15 minutes later you took the card up over $400. And then you finished up at $410.<br /><br />It was not the cert buyers who drove the price of this card up so high. It was you. Had you not bid, either bidder 2 or bidder 8 would have won the card, and they would have been bidding to beat bidder 7's high bid of $344, not your high bid of $410.<br /><br />-Al

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>AL's first post made the key point. If this was a raw card and the final price was the same, there would be no outcry. Was the underbidder a "slab" guy or a "sovereign back" guy? That's something we'll never know. So blaming this one on the big bad grading company has no foundation.<br><br>Frank

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Noel Wrye</b><p>Agreed, card looks overgraded. Not sure i understand the purpose of the post though. You saw unaltered scans of both the front and back so im not quite sure where the disappointment is coming from. Al, I think your take is spot on. Ted, i think i understand your point of view but just dont get it.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>What it really boils down to is Ted needed the card badly for his set and it ended up costing him too much, and some of his disappointment is being blamed on the slab. I understand why his is frustrated, but hey, vintage cards are expensive. That's just a fact of life.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Your comments.....<br /><br />....."Then, with bidding on the card at $344, you placed a bid of $355.55. Less than 15 minutes later<br /> you took the card up over $400. And then you finished up at $410."<br /><br />OK, as I've said, repeatedly, I assumed that this card was graded properly as an Ex card. And, I was<br />excited that, finally, this "Super Print" (SS) surfaced with a Sovereign 460 back. It is probably the<br /> toughest of the Six SS cards to find with this back. I now have 5 of these six SS cards with Sov 460<br /> backs (an accomplishment, not easily achieved).<br /><br />So, you are trying to get into my mind, to figure out my bidding pattern on this Evers card. It's not really<br />anyone's business; however, since you have made it public....I will tell you that I was closely following<br /> the bidding and I knew there would be a "sniper", or two. Therefore, I kept increasing my bid, for fear<br />that I would lose this card in the final seconds.<br /><br />My fear proved true, a new bidder did "snipe" at the very last second....but, my "hidden bid" exceeded<br /> his snipe bid. My $355.55 and $401.77 bids were also "hidden bids" that were subsequently exceeded<br /> by other bidders.<br /><br />Incidently, I don't recall ever having seen a Net54 poster exposing another member's actual bidding #'s<br /> on a particular ebay item. I realize that anyone can access this information; however, I don't appreciate<br /> your posting of it....for whatever purposes you have.<br /><br />TED Z <br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...that card is in the right holder.<br /><br />I. Centering Issue<br /><br />Centering on T206 cards does not impact grade much on 5's and lower, unless the name is cut off at the bottom, or there is an entire border missing. There is enough white on the side to stay in a 5 holder.<br /><br />II. Corner Damage<br /><br />If you wanted 4 sharp corners, you should have held out for a 6. That is the right amount of corner damage for a 5. But a black background behind the card can assist us hind-sight graders a bit more with respect to corner issues.<br /><br /><br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If that card is indicative of a PSA-5 T206, then PSA is continues to lower their grading standards as time goes by. Ten years ago, you would never have found a T206 in that condition sitting in a PSA-5 holder. And if I were selling that card raw, I would be listing it as VG/EX.<br /> I've been collecting tobacco cards longer than I've been collecting coins, over 40 years.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>SGC would have given it a 50, and been right on the money.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>I personally think it is irrelevant what the grade is or should be. To me that would not be the point. I need the card. It's a tough card. I may never see it again. So (and I have no opinion one way or the other) I think I overpaid. I'm just happy to have the card.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...all you want, but how about some examples? In my opinion, the expectation is based on words, not an understanding for why a card should grade a 5. I am having a hard time explaining this thought, but basically, Ted has a defitional issue rather than a slab issue. His definition of EX is different from what PSA or SGC would call EX. So, when he buys a card raw, he can define the card how he likes. But when he buys a card that has been graded, the industry standard definition makes it harder for him to buy cards. Frankly, that is the whole point of using an industry standard that can be checked by a respected 3rd-party authenticator. Long gone are the days of dealers selling Walter Johnson portraits and calling them NrMT-MT to collectors who couldn't find the hairline crease, or spot of paper loss. I have yet to see a comprehensible argument made by a raw card collector about how to deal with the dealer who charges you $2,000 for that card which is worth $500. This is ESPECIALLY so in light of the internet. Instead of complaining about having to pay for a PSA 5 on ebay, keep in mind that without PSA, you would never have found that card on ebay. Period. There would be nowhere near the same market for T206 cards on the internet were it not for PSA. You may want to revert to a time when you and your buddies hung out at convention centers in the mid-70's or mid-80's and swapped cards without regard to value and exact condition. But I got pretty tired of driving home from a card show, having spent hundreds of dollars on a 1933 Goudey card that was described as EX, only to see the back crease in the car ride home. Thanks to PSA, those stories are much less prevalent.<br /><br />Finally, I don't have any PSA cards, because again, I hate them. But here are some SGC 60's, with offcenter issues and corner damage, that I believe are quite accurately graded:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28334&usetid=1015" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28334&usetid=1015</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28238&usetid=1015" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28238&usetid=1015</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28434&usetid=1015" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28434&usetid=1015</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28468&usetid=1015" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28468&usetid=1015</a><br /><br />Not off-center, but this is Ted's card, with worse corners, in my opinion, in an SGC 60 holder:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28516&usetid=1015" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28516&usetid=1015</a><br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The consensus on this Thread, and 2 emails that I have received, agree by a factor of 10 - 2,<br />that this card is no better than Vg-Ex.<br /><br />George, between you and I we have about 70 years of collecting T-cards....we have seen a lot<br />of T206's in the course of our combined 70 years.<br /><br />Thanks for your opinion.<br /><br />TED Z

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...that 10-2 would evaporate. And, I bet they would cross it to a 60. <br /><br />You may have 70 years of collecting, but I hardly think that having put together an entire T206 set in SGC holders, with grades ranging from A to 80 over the past 10 years, qualifies me as some sort of newbie rookie in card grading. <br /><br />If anything, your standards are dated and mine are current. <br /><br />Finally, Ted, how do you explain that $2,000 card that is worth $500 issue I raised? Doesn't card grading mostly eliminate that practice -- especially on the internet?

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>The Evers from the registry that T206 Collector posted has better corners and decent centering and belongs in an SGC 60 holder. The only card I would have taken issue with is the Willett card and it is worse than the PSA-5 Evers....definitely VG/EX.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>....plenty of examples of SGC 60 cards with corners as rounded as the Willetts. SGC is consistent in its grading of such cards as 60's, as long as there are no other issues.<br /><br />Your definition or expectation of VG-EX is lower than the industry standard. And, by the way, in the ten years of collecting I did before I collected graded cards, those were EX in my book, too. <br /><br />This is the Lefty Grove I bought in 1989 as a 16 year old kid -- I bought it believing it to be EX condition, even with the corner wear. Sure enough, SGC agreed with me 15 years later when they slabbed it:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=512&usetid=1127" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=512&usetid=1127</a><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted- I see a bet in the making here.<br /><br />Maybe we should get a pool together, and then have Ted cross it over to SGC, and see what it gets.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...If SGC puts it in a 50 holder, I'll shut up. <br /><br />I'm not saying it's the most beautiful 60 I've ever seen; I'm just saying it would be consistent with how SGC has graded all the 60's I've ever seen if they too graded that Evers as a 60.<br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>Ted, even though we feel it should have been graded a 4, you still have a 5 slab and that alone will dictate the higher value. You still made a wise investment.<br /><br />T206 Collector, yes I think my standards are dated in comparison with the grading trends I have been seeing as time passes. The amount of raw vintage cards that can be graded is finite and we will see the number of submissions continue to decrease in coming years. This means that PSA and other companies will rarely see higher quality vintage submissions and the tendency will be to grade higher or grade altered cards in order to maintain profit, customer satisfaction and a sufficient level of future submissions. <br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>I agree with the grade on the Grove. It is in better condition and better centered than the PSA-5 Evers

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>If SGC will grade that Willett card a 60, then I don't see any reason they wouldn't grade the Evers card a 60. I'm just saying that I think they are overgrading if they do. Also, I wouldn't advise Ted to ever take that Evers card out of its current slab, because it might never again achieve that grade, unless he sent it to PSA for a reholder.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[Ted, even though we feel it should have been graded a 4, you still have a 5 slab and that alone will dictate the higher value. You still made a wise investment.] <br /><br />He will crack it out and then sell it as VG-EX, which while noble can hardly be qualified as a "wise investment."<br /><br />[the tendency will be to grade higher or grade altered cards in order to maintain profit, customer satisfaction and a sufficient level of future submissions.]<br /><br />I agree that the grading companies need to be monitored like a hawk. And, in 2, 5 or 10 years down the line, if it turns out that SGC is slipping in its standards, then I will promptly find the most reputable grading company available. When I learned of certain disreputable issues with PSA, I cracked the 40 PSA cards I had out and had them put into SGC holders. I'd do the same with SGC in a heart beat if there were corporate scandal or some such deal with them. And, it may very well be that we will have to rely on the years that certain cards were graded by certain companies. But as long as e-commerce is available for baseball cards, it will be necessary to have a reliable, consistent choice for 3rd-party authentication -- since in person viewings will be impossible. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[I agree with the grade on the Grove. It is in better condition and better centered than the PSA-5 Evers.]<br /><br />Just to add quirks to quirkiness -- PSA didn't agree with either of us. They called it a PSA 4. I agree with you that they got it wrong. But I have heard from the Goudey collectors that they would not want their PSA 5's to have corners like this. <br /><br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>&lt;But as long as e-commerce is available for baseball cards, it will be necessary to have a reliable, consistent choice for 3rd-party authentication -- since &lt;in person viewings will be impossible. <br /><br />Well said. The credibility is in the slab when dealing remotely.<br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>So it was an SGC-60 that came out of a PSA-4 holder? <br />Yes, looks like it could easily be a PSA-5 to me. There are some tough calls to make huh?<br /> I have a 1954 Mantle that has the same corners and centering, and it occupies a PSA-5 holder.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>PAUL<br /><br />I checked out your links and some I would say are Ex and others less than Ex.<br /><br />But, more importantly, I really enjoy going to major shows. I only set-up at the Philly Shows<br /> and do a lot of browsing around at each show. And, do some serious "person-to-person"<br /> buying.<br />If I am going to spend big $$$$ on a "naked" card at a show, the dealer is not going to "jam"<br />his grade at me. I will deal only with dealers who I know I can have a "give and take" with.<br /><br />I've operated this way for 30 years, now. I certainly won't risk buying an un-graded card via<br />mail that is very expensive. Some collectors go to a lot of shows to acquire cards for their<br /> collection. And, there are some that only go to the National and acquire most of their cards<br /> from ebay, or personal transactions via mail. Everyone, has their personal preferences in the<br />way they obtain cards for their collections.<br /><br />Paul....I might just submit this card to SGC (for academic reasons, since as you know I don't<br />have graded cards in my collection). And, it will be interesting to see what grade SGC gives it ?<br /> <br /><br />TED Z

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>[I certainly won't risk buying an un-graded card via mail that is very expensive.]<br /><br />Given this statement and the prices and quantities of T206 cards on ebay, there is no question the value that 3rd party grading brings to the vintage baseball card equation.<br /><br />[So it was an SGC-60 that came out of a PSA-4 holder?]<br /><br />That's right. Just like this Cobb:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28409&usetid=1015" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28409&usetid=1015</a><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>I've always loved that particular Cobb T206. I'm beginning to think PSA should have had an EX 4.5 grade. That is also a very tough call on the grading. Some cards are so close that they are in between grades.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think the future for the grading services is that each will become more strict over time. Collectors will demand it, and it is what they will have to do to stay competitive.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...but PSA seems to have finally gotten around to removing my 40 T206 cards from the PSA Set Registry. I had about 40 cards on there, but someone must have tipped them off to the fact that I don't own any PSA cards anymore. (Either PSA reads these boards or someone who obviously believes very deeply about the sanctity of the PSA Set Registry filed a complaint.) Though it would have been nice to get an e-mail from PSA to let me know that they were going to do that. I'm going to have to start a post about that....<br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>Barry, since the supply of raw vintage cards is finite, doesn't this mean that the number of future submissions will decrease over time and so will the ability of grading companies to maintain a profit?

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>I'm going to stick my neck out on this one and say that the ratio of raw T206 to graded T206 is 50:1. At that it will take forever for submissions to dry up. Collectors may dry up way before then.<br /><br />Comments?

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>There are about 1,000 T206 cards/auctions on ebay right now.<br /><br />When you remove PSA, BVG, GAI and SGC from the search window, you get about 500.<br /><br />So, perhaps there is a rough 1:1 ratio between raw versus graded cards for sale on ebay right now. But how many not for sale T206 cards are out there? And, graded sales are more popular on the internet for reasons already discussed above. So, the raw number is certainly quite a bit higher than the graded number. But 50:1? Well, if that were the case, even controlling for internet sale and sale in general, I'd say 50:1 is a bit too high. <br /><br />Scot Reader would have the best chance of knowing the answer, given his ebay market and general research into the existing T206 population.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>George- interesting point. All resources are finite and baseball cards are too. I do think there is still a good deal of raw material out there, so there are still a number of years left before that happens.<br /><br />But let me share a story from the coin grading business. The early submissions of coins resulted in somewhat inflated grades that were not widely accepted by collectors and dealers. The coin graders soon realized they would have to grade much more strictly. As a result, coins in old holders did poorly in the marketplace, and had to be resubmitted to get a current and more accurate grade. And voila, a whole new batch of coins needed to be reexamined. Wouldn't surprise me if that same thing happened with cards, given all the complaining we hear over misgraded material.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>"Incidently, I don't recall ever having seen a Net54 poster exposing another member's actual bidding #'s<br />on a particular ebay item. I realize that anyone can access this information; however, I don't appreciate<br />your posting of it....for whatever purposes you have."<br /><br />Ted, first let me apologize for disclosing information that you weren't comfortable with me disclosing. Since the auction had already been posted in this thread, and the bidding is a matter of public record (unlike with the major auctions, eBay allows you to see who bid on a card, and where their bid levels were), I didn't see any harm in copying that information from the eBay auction into this thread. I certainly didn't think that by posting that information into this thread to help me make my point, that I'd be revealing any secrets that couldn't be found very easily simply by looking at the auction and trying to understand why a bidder might have taken the card up to a level that was so much higher than you felt it was worth.<br /><br />Second, I'll reiterate a point that I made in my very first post. I agree with you that the card is overgraded, by one grade. I feel the card belongs in a VG-EX holder, just like you do.<br /><br />It's not my habit to get into arguments with people on message boards, nor is it my habit to start trouble with people. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an instance of me starting fires on any message board.<br /><br />That being said, the point that I was trying to make is that I completely disagree with you that the card being in a holder with a "5" on it is the reason why it sold for such a high price. You yourself noted that you haven't seen this card with this back in two years. I know that when I've been looking for a particular card for a long time, and an opportunity to purchase that card presents itself, I don't care much about what it's "worth" - I will pay what it takes to win the card, or lose it at a price I'm not comfortable paying.<br /><br />Given the bidding pattern on this particular auction, I am hard-pressed to find any evidence that the number on the holder is the reason the card sold for such a high price. You bid high on the card, because you recognized the scarcity and wanted it badly. Clearly, so did at least one other person. That kind of thing happens all the time, at least to me.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>The card sold at a high price because of a combination of factors...<br /><br />Ted really wanted a Sovereign backed Evers.<br /><br />I suspect the underbidders were bidding up based on the slab the card was in... buying the slab, not the card.<br /><br />And thirdly, the grading seems to have been done poorly, unduly encouraging higher bidding by the underbidders.<br /><br />The combination of the 3 would be quite frustrating to someone who only wanted the card. Maybe if the first 2 reasons only were present, and the card had been undergraded, then the situation wouldn't be as frustrating to Ted.<br /><br />So it IS clear to me why Ted is frustrated with the grading on the card. I'm sure he'll bust it out. But the improper grading cost him money. I believe the underbidders were just after a slabbed Evers, and didn't know or care about Sovereign 460.<br /><br /><br />The day is getting close for a separate board to be set up, one where folks focus on cards, card sets, distribution, and the history of the game... a board where folks don't speak of grading, grading companies, population reports, set registry, and the like. When that day arrives I'll stay clear of the slab board, so as to not annoy those folks with my beliefs. It is nothing against Leon... I wish we could take him with us.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Since grading is a major part of the hobby my guess is any place, anywhere, when talking about baseball cards, grading will be talked about. What's the title of this thread? I have already stated my feelings many times....I think grading is good but it's better to know the cards yourself....98% of my value in my collection is SGC slabbed....but only about 50% of my cards...What's a moderator/dictator/collector to do? best regards

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Why is only 50% of your collection slabbed. Is it just because you haven't gotten around to it, or are there other reasons.<br /><br />Peter

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Hmmmmm.... 99%+ of my collection isn't slabbed. I think I have 5 cards at the moment that are slabbed. 2 I just haven't gotten around to busting out, 1 I'm going to sell, 1 I'm going to give away to a young man... I don't understand the question "why only 50%" What is the "only" about? Maybe he hasn't gotten around to getting the others slabbed. Maybe he hasn't gotten around to busting more out...<br /><br />I concede that many slab collectors truly know their cards. But there are some who truly don't. For those folks, the next step after slabbing will be a 'service' (what a good word for it) where they'll advise you as to which slabbed cards you need to collect (will they say 'in which to invest'?) so as to advance your collection (will they say 'portfolio'?). <br /><br /><br />Ask not, when are you getting your collection slabbed; ask yourself when you're going to collect cards, not slabs.<br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The reasons for my slabs are, dare I say, almost purely financial. I have admitted I have spent, and do spend, more on cards than I really should. I doubt I am the only one in that boat. I like to have SGC give me their opinion on high value cards. Recently I bought a 5 figure card that came back as altered. I totally missed it with a 6x. Had I not sent it in I would have only found out when I was selling it as the next buyer would have probably wanted it looked at. I like handling my cards, fondling them (sort of), smelling them...and all that. That's why I like a lot of them naked. I am in the camp of liking the fact that someone I trust has also deemed the cards authentic. I do think folks rely too much on slabs though and really should get to know the cards more themselves.....Another thing is that in a slab I can handle the cards and not worry about dropping them or creasing them etc.....which is a big plus for me ...(though not as much of a plus as my dear friend Rich Klein....(inside joke)).....best regards

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Frank stated:<br /><br />"I suspect the underbidders were bidding up based on the slab the card was in... buying the slab, not the card.<br /><br />And thirdly, the grading seems to have been done poorly, unduly encouraging higher bidding by the underbidders."<br /><br /><br />Frank, that is just pure utter speculation. Unless you know the underbidders, you have no evidence from which to make that statement and it clearly underscores your bias against people who collect slabs. <br /><br />If Ted had been the underbidder, I suspect you would have believed that the winner and the underbidders (including Ted - who's id would have been hidden) were all bidding based on the number on the slab rather than need or rarity. Of course, if that were the case, your suspicion would have been incorrect. Its just impossible, it seems, for you to believe that people who collect slabbed cards can be knowledgeable and base their purchases on anything other than a number on a slab.<br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>JK, you specultate as to my speculation...<br /><br />I think many, many, many more bidders bid based on slab numbers than on what they're buying. I base that partly on reading posts here. So I'm confident that the underbidders were doing exactly what I said they were.<br /><br />But I may be wrong... Maybe Ted is an old fool, bidding away on lord knows what, and those guys who were underbidders were smart enough to stop. That's the ticket! Has to be. Seems to me that on average most bidders on eBay would be know much more about T206s than ol' Ted.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>To be an ol’time expert card collector do you have to have a condescending know-it-all attitude as a prerequisite or is that a bonus??<br /><br />Sometimes I can’t figure out who is more arrogant the guys who swear that all cards are trimmed in less in plastic. Or the guys who assume that anyone who buys a graded card is a clueless uneducated tool who belongs in the virtual servants quarters vs. sitting at the table with the rest of the birth right collecting purists.<br /><br />Give it rest already, graded cards cost more than raw it sucks. And raw cards are still fine if you know what you’re looking for and or looking at. Some people collect one or the other, some even collect both, can we move on to a new discussion now. <br /><br />How about fake Wagner’s on ebay for $10 there’s one we haven’t beat to death in awhile.<br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I stayed out of this thread a long time, and let ol' Ted take his lumps. But most folks seemed to not understand his frustration. So I was resting... but 4 dozen posts later, it's time someone attempted to explain that he knew what he was doing and has reason to be frustrated.<br /><br />I'll go back to resting. But golly, in that 3-13-07 5:55pm post, in my second paragraph, I said, "I concede that many slab collectors truly know their cards." Did you guys miss that?

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Frank,<br /><br />In that same post, you also state:<br /><br />"Ask not, when are you getting your collection slabbed; ask yourself when you're going to collect cards, not slabs."<br /><br />Quite condescending IMO. You state some slab collectors know their cards, but continue to lump us together with statements such as the one above or by ignoring the possibility that some other smart collectors other than Ted just possibly could have known what they were doing when they bid on the Evers and pushed Ted's winning price upward. Ignoring the possibility that the price reflects the toughness of the card and not the number on the slab tells me that you dont really believe that some slab collectors "know their cards."

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I'm certain all don't.<br /><br /><br />This reminds me of what happens when you try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time, and it annoys hell outa the pig.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Come on, Josh, you don't think anyone could possibly understand an issue as complex as back scarcity with a set as obscure as T206, do you? <br /><br />Clearly the winning bidder bid $410 because he knows what he's doing, and the underbidder bid a few dollars less because he's a slabhead. <br /><br />-Al<br /><br />

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Back scarcity?? You mean they come with different types of backs??? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"><br /><br />Well I know my T206’s are real they all have the same brand back, from the guy I bought them from who found them in his grandfathers attic. That is after he found the treasure map, which led him to the cards in another attic, oddly enough.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/small/reprint.jpg">

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>Hey don't forget what was found in Honus Wagner's attic after he died.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Oh hell, you mean these cards have backs? Im always so busy starring at the number on the front of the slab, that it has never dawned on me to turn one over.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>This Thread is degenerating into the usual "civil war" between the "plastic" vs "free-cardboard" types.<br /><br />Let's keep it at a higher level.....I acquired this Cicotte for my Sovereign set at the recent Reading Show.<br />Cicotte (Black Sox guy) is tuff to find, normally.....and with a Sovereign 150 back is very tuff.<br /><br />I purchased it in this GAI plastic and I think this card looks more like an Ex card than the above Evers.<br />However, GAI graded it slightly less than Ex.....which was to my favor, since I paid....wait a minute.....<br /><br />I'll let you guys try to guess what it cost me ?<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/acicottesov.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/bcicottesov.jpg"><br /><br />TED Z collection

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>$190

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>George Dreher</b><p>I'll guess $200. It would be a steal at that price.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>That's an interesting question, because in this case I think it's entirely possible that the holder could have had an impact on the price, in a way that was favorable to you as the buyer. Over the last year or so, I've noticed cards in GAI holders selling for well below market value in a lot of cases.<br /><br />On the other hand it is a nice card with a tough back, and a desirable player. I'd say you got it for $275.<br /><br />-Al

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Al, thats what played into the price I had said at $190 was the holder....otherwise I would have put it at $250-$275 range.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>I agree with Al and Dave $250 to $275. Trend to the high side of that range.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I would say $250-275 in a PSA or SGC holder...would you pay that much for the card in a GAI holder though?

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I believe the last one auctioned in a GAI 4.5 holder went for $181 and some change...albeit probably didn't have that back.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>I would buy the card, not the holder.

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I understand buying the card and not the holder..a nice looking PSA 4 Cicotte or a nice looking SGC 50. For me anyway...with GAI it wouldn't be about buying the holder..the holder would actually hold me back..

PSA 5 Evers....I don't think so....DO YOU ?
 

Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>the card pictured would easily cross-over to a PSA 4 or SGC 50. May even be lucky enough to get a 5 or 60. With that I would have no problem paying $275.00 for the card. <br /><br />Ted?