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Posted By: <b>Trae R.</b><p>I was contacted through <a href="http://www.t206.org" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206.org</a> a few days ago by a woman in TN who claims to have found a Wagner "in a cigarette pack that was buried under some rims and tires on a piece of land my family has owned for a long time". She's sending me scans tonight or tomorrow to estimate it's condition. She said it did have some staining on the front though, so we'll see. This is pretty exciting! I will definitely share with the group.<br /><br />I just wonder how old these rims and tires must be to have a Sweet Cap pack buried under them! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I guess anything is possible... update to come soon.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>So what are you saying? you're just going to authenticate it for her, or are you going to buy it? etc...<br /><br />what's the plan here?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>A NEW HEINIE WAGNER FIND!!!!!!!!11!! <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Trae R.</b><p>Haha Dan! :D<br /><br />I am simply going to give her my opinion. I can't afford to purchase it from her even if it was real. Fortunately I just received the scans. I will communicate to her based on the general consensus here.<br /><br />Apparently it was a Piedmont pack.<br /><br />I've got to go "fake" on this one.<br /><br />No border... text for the name is a little too bold...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.mlbvintage.com/misc/wagnerfind.jpg"><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Being in the Automotive industry. I would like to know the rims that were found? They did not make rims back in 1909 for cars. Sounds like a good story/find though

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Interesting that she "found" this card so soon after the recent sale of another Wagner. <br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>obviously fake (reprint)

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>It never ceases to amaze me how many stained/beatup Wagners show up with perfectly square corners.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Obvious reprint:<br /><br />1. Borders too wide;<br />2. No corner wear;<br />3. Suspicous whitning area where word "Reprint" normally found above mont in Piedmont;<br />4. Typeface not properly centered top to bottom; and<br />5 "Pittsburg" misspelled <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Trae R.</b><p>I let her know the card wasn't authentic and gave her a link to our thread here. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>To find a Wagner in a shoebox in an attic with other tobacco cards would indeed be astonishing; but to find one in a pack under a tire rim is beyond the realm of possibility!

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Is the "land" for sale as well?

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Yeah..what idiot leaves thier full pack of cigarettes inside a tire rim....lol

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Obvious fake for all the reasons stated. I would love to see a photo of the supposed cigarette pack it came out of. There are a lot more fake Wagners than fake cigarette packs. I imagine you may get a few of these with the recent news of the $2.3 million dollar card. Time to cash in those reprints.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>If the land were her grandfather's the story might be a bit more believable.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys, <br /><br />Thanks for all the info, I'm starting to become good at spotting a fake. Your right, given all the abuse the card has gone through, there should be more wear on the corners.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>AndyH</b><p>I think we are all in agreement that this is not an authentic T206. <br /><br />However, the argument that the corners are too sharp to match the other damage is not totally accurate. IF the card were authentic, AND it were kept in a pack for all these years (untouched and under tires), then it is conceivable that the corners would remain sharp and the card would get stained by whatever drips on it. There is no other damage other than the staining, so sharp corners shouldn't be used to determine authenticity of this card.<br /><br />The darkness of the name and team on the front as well as the font size of the team name are dead give-aways though. And, as mentioned, the missing border around the image. <br /><br />Just my 2cents. <br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Andy

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>You people are only saying it isn't real because you're racists! <br /><br /><br />Or am I talking about the wrong T206 Wagner?</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>Russ Bright</b><p>given all the abuse???<br /><br /><br />given the 10 minutes to rub it in dirt, wait for your tea to steep to pour it over the card to make it look aged... there is a fine art to aging things... most of these idiots don't know anything about forgeries, they just want a quick buck...<br /><br />still makes me sick... it really does

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I don't exactly think like what I'm about to say.... but,<br /><br />What if some collector did buy that reprint there after it had a splash of tea and buried in dirt... say a collector bought it for $80,000.<br /><br />What would be good about that, well... anyone who knows so little about cards as to buy that would be outbidding us on stuff we're after, and once he's paid $80k for a dirty reprint he'd have less cash to push our bids up. So maybe there is a good side to someone buying it for a pile of money.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Dwyer</b><p>Geez, I could've got 80,000 for this one! If I only would've been dishonest. If Alan Hagar slabbed it, it must be real. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />Note: I insisted Hagar put "Altered Reprint".<br /><br /><img src="http://rdwyer.250free.com/CIMG1603.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>No black line around the border<br />Wrong font style.<br /><br />It's as good as the one from the two guys from Detroit and she didn't pay $1800.00 for it. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Speaking of spending exsorbant amounts of money on reprints, just check out some of the auctions on yahoo. If they are real bids, some buyers are bidding 30 dollars and up for obvious reprints. Suppose they maybe think they can fool someone out of even more money, ugh.

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Posted By: <b>jesika</b><p>I knok that everyone here thinks this card isnt real but i do have other people looking at right now i didnt know anything about it untill just the other day i have had this card for a long time my gradfather has taken real good care of it since i was a little girl and found it when cleaning out the back yard i know its real b/c i found it in the cigg pack myself but i do like to hear your thoughts and i would like to hear more and if anyone could find a good close up pic on any other REAL honus wagner cards please send them to me thanks

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>We would suggest you have one of the grading companies evaluate the card for you. Trae will be able to give you the information.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Unfortunately no, it is not real. Below is a pic of a real Wagner...the lettering of yours isn't right, the borders of yours aren't outlined correctly...and the chances of finding a Wagner with a Piedmont back are slim at best (not impossible) but much less likely than finding a Sweet Caporal back. Since your grandfather probably wasn't around collecting packs of smokes in 1909, I'm going to assume he would have picked up the item much later...and by that time reprints would have already been out. <br /><br />Edited to say...by all means send it to PSA or SGC for professional grading. It would be WELL worth the money if you had a real card.<br /><br /><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/asphaltman76/23.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>jesika</b><p>I wish i could see another honus wagner card that for a fact was real but i cant seem to find a real good picture of one like mine front and back <br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Jessica can you post a picture of the cigarette pack itself?

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Posted By: <b>jesika</b><p><br />I would have to get my gradfather to get it for me any actually my greatgrandfather did smoke and those were his rims and car parts from where he used to work on his cars in the back yard beside our house

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Posted By: <b>jesika</b><p>But how do i send it off i am sort of scared to b/c of loosing it even if its not real i dont want to loose it

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Is the lettering of the card at the bottom black like it looks in the scans?

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Posted By: <b>Trae R.</b><p>Jessica, you can find a gallery of Wagner's here:<br /><a href="http://www.t206.org/gallery.php" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206.org/gallery.php</a><br /><br />He's in the first link under the<br />"The Big 4" title in the first column.<br /><br />As Dave said, we'd love to see a picture of<br />the pack you found this card in.

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Posted By: <b>jesika</b><p>oh and another thing i thought a fake if you put it to a light you wouldnt be able to see through it i can see straight through this one and the print is perfect and there is a border arround the pic

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>I will reiterate:<br /><br />Look carefully at the white space above the "mont" in the word Piedmont on the reverse. Many, though not all, of the reprints have the word Reprint in that space. It may appear to you upon examination that the area has been rubbed down. If so that's going to clinch the fact that it is a reprint.

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Posted By: <b>jesika</b><p>yes it is black but where would reprint be on the card if it was a reprint i want to look at that

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Go to www.sgccard.com There is a customer service number on thier site, and for a real Wagner you'd want to arrange a time to take a trip to SGC yourself and they would do a 2 hour service for $100.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>If the words "Wagner, Pittsburg" are in black....don't bother wasting your time with a grading service...case closed its fake and probably worth about $2.00

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Posted By: <b>jesika</b><p>well i have to go back to work i will write back later and check your messages thanks for the info and i will keep you updated

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>By the way..here is where the word reprint is located on the back...and where yours is "really white"<br /><br /><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/asphaltman76/92_1_b.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dave, that's a very well done reprint and the front really looks good. And that's actually a bad thing.

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Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br />Another problem with the card that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that all the letters in "PITTSBURG" seem to be the same height. On authentic T206s of Pittsburg players, the "P" is taller. For example:<br /><br /><img src="http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j41/sreader3/Pittsburg.jpg"> <br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>can't believe we are still on this...<br /><br />very simply, the name & team at the bottom is black (should be brown) and the font size is all the same height (on a real T206 card, the first letter of the team is larger then the rest of the word)...<br /><br />reprint/fake...<br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>I have the only known Babe Ruth 1914 Cracker Jack and aint showing nobody. I may sell it if someone wants to purchase my Ocean front property, to boot, in Arizona. All offers consider over 19,000,000.00

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Posted By: <b>girl in tn</b><p>explain why the letters on the bottom of that card are black

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Explain why the letters on which card are black?

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Posted By: <b>girl in tn</b><p>leach pittsburg

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Very simply...the letters on any real T206 are more of a brown shade, not black like the ones in your card. Also it is true the players last name and then the first letter in the team name should be larger than the other letters in the team name...yours are all the same size.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>The letters on the Leach are a grayish brown..not dark black.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I wouldn't be too interested in the card...but if you can provide a scan of the cigarette pack I would possibly be interested in buying it (provided its the right time period)

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Posted By: <b>girl in tn</b><p>well if the word reprint had been wiped off wouldnt i be able to tell it and i cant so i hate to keep going with this but i do need some advise and i dont know anything about it im not trying to rip anyone off i just think that all of you are wrong it has to be the real thing i found it and i dought that they would go through that much trouble to make someone belive it

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Posted By: <b>girl in tn</b><p>ive got the card in my hand right now and i cant tell that its fake at all theres no evidence of paste or rubbing off words

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I think you'll be wasting your time trying to get that card authenticated...but if you insist and Trae doesn't have time to mess with it you can email me and I'll walk you through step by step submitting the card to SGC or PSA...either way...again, I'd be interested in the pack itself if I get a scan.

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Posted By: <b>mark</b><p>with no word "reprint" on them also, i could be wrong. I'm sure someone on this board knows.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I can't believe anyone here is falling for this.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>No one, and I mean no one on this Board would be happier for you and the hobby if in fact you had discovered an authentic Wagner. To suggest that we are all wrong in light of all the evidence presented you does us a disservice.<br /><br />I have tried, as has most everyone else who has posted, to be polite and understanding and helpful to you regarding the card.<br /><br />That time has ended (at least for me). Do with the card what you want. Don't have it authenticated. Continue to stick your head in the sand. Be happy.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I'm not falling for the card being real...it wouldn't be as difficult though for someone to come up with an original cigarette pack..which is what I'd be interested in seeing..

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Posted By: <b>girl in tn</b><p>i wasnt trying to say that you guys dont know what your talk ing about b/c i know that you do know thats why i am still here talking to you i am going to send it off and i will get a scan of the cigg pack and i might even sell it but i wasnt saying anything to dissrespect any of you i really want to thank you for all of your help but i am gone if you want to talk to me or send me anything to help you can to my e-mail address jesikawhitlock@yahoo.com thanks have a nice day and i am sorry if i made anyone mad

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I don't think anyone is falling for the card being real...I think you may be falling for "her" story though. There is no cigarette pack, and there probably is no "jesika".

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Yes...I know the card is 100% fake...I know someone could be trying to pass one off with a real cigarette pack from the time period...although there is probably a 99% chance of that being fake as well. The "pack" should have been posted to start with if there is one..

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Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Is this "girl" related to or dating the two black guys in Detroit or Cincinnati or wherever??<br /><br />As much stink as she is putting up after numerous people have told her the Wagner card is fake, I am starting to believe she is.<br /><br />David

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I don't even think she is from Tennessee.....the name she used can be traced to Buffalo.<br /> I wonder why she would persist with her story after clearly being shown that the card is fake. Could it be the money factor ? Unless the card was buried inside of a sealed container of some kind I'm afraid the card and pack would not have survived even 50 years of having been buried and exposed to environmental elements. <br /> If I had one wish I would wish that all these reprints would disappear forever. I'll be going to the turtle Creek fleamarket this sunday, and if I remember to take my camera I'll take pics of all the fake Wagners for sale there.

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Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>Guys, we all know that this card is fake. But if Jessika is real and actually found this item, you would do the same thing she is doing. There is no way any of you would throw away a "find" because someone said that ink color should be a kinda brown, not black. Or the "P" should be a little larger. An uninformed person would not realize that these aren't judgements and would never take it at face value.<br /><br />Think of this as you finding an old box in your granma's attic with a colorful lamp and a Tiffany & Co tag on it. Would you junk it if someone said the base should be slightly oval, not round? Even if they told you all Tiffany lamps of that color had oval bases?<br /><br />That being said, I think she is a Troll and doing a very good job of it.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I've been off the board for a few hours and didn't realize the owner came on to discuss her great find.<br /><br />Jesika, should you decide to come back on and read some further posts, let me say that the people on this board are among the most knowledgeable baseball card collectors in the country. When every last one of them tells you it is fake, and you disagree with them (and I am guessing this is the first time you have ever seen a vintage baseball card), maybe it's time to pack it up and just admit it's not what you hoped it is.<br /><br />Over the years we have seen this same story played out many times, and every time the card in question is an undeniable fake. Any effort or expense you put into this trying to prove otherwise is money and time wasted.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Barry Sloate

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Posted By: <b>t206museum.com</b><p><br />This is not new to us at all since we received "Wagner found" email at least once a week. No more excitement when you hear this kind of "found" anymore. <br /><br />Trae. R, you will get used to it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Yes, that Wagner is a reprint.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.t206museum.com/page/forgery.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206museum.com/page/forgery.html</a>

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>It reminds me of the 1990 Dr Koos exposure.<br />Who BTW was an artistic Doctor in comparison to this amateur Wagner fake.<br /><br />After I got my money back, I spent more time at the 1990 Texas national educating the dealers about Danny D, and telling them what to look for.<br /><br />Because of my research, and because I didn't want to tell them EVERYTHING, ... I left out a couple of clues.<br /><br />Knowing that Bob Lemke would have something about the doctoring in SCD, my thinking was why educate the bandito on how to improve his art work.<br /><br />It's almost like the artistic doctor saying: "Please tell me, and point out where I've errored, so that I can improve my art."<br /><br />It was my intention to alert the dealers in Texas, and protect my hobby.<br />At the same time, it would have defeated my purpose by telling all, and improving the enemies of my hobby.<br /><br />A fun thread indeed. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Joe P. <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>Dave,<br />She just emailed me a pic of the 1989 Salem light pack of cigarettes that housed the Wagner. I think the pack is fake too.<br /><br />Shane

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Barry<br /><br />I'm disappointed that you didn't correct her/his/their grammar and punctuation. <br /><br />May I suggest<br /><br /><img src="http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0192813897.01._PIlitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p><img src="http://members.aol.com/wolfie51sb/style">

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Posted By: <b>dmcd</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/March07/MeTalk1.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>mark</b><p>You just made me spit my beer all over the place, what a waste of good beer. I will have to get another. Funny stuff!!!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I only correct spelling and grammar for board members. Strangers don't get my free services <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Jessica:<br /><br />Don't believe these guys. There are a couple of gentlemen from Cincinnati that can authenticate this card. They know a lot about T206s too. I don't have their number, but their names are Cobb and Edwards and if you run across them at a card show they look like this ---&gt;<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9919/honusgg3.jpg"><br /><br />Good luck

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You know there is a lesson to be learned from those two guys. They taught us how you can become famous for absolutely no reason at all!

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Barry:<br /><br />I'll never get tired of laughing at those guys!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I wonder what they are up to these days? Have they given up the fight, or are they still looking for that magic buyer?

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Posted By: <b>mark</b><p>if they ever let PSA grade it in private. As many of you know, they will let PSA grade this card only if they are allowed in the room with the graders. PSA says NO.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>PSA has graded a million cards, including multiple Wagners. Do they think PSA will slip out the back door with their card?<br /><br />Or maybe they are afraid PSA will steal their fake and switch it with a real one! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>girl in tn</b><p>now look i am 20 years old of course i dont know anything about this card i didnt intend this to become a chat room where you all could make fun of me i said i was sorry for saying that you all were wrong but its not fare for you to say these things about me i have no reason to lie to any of you and i didnt send anyone that pack of ciggs my grandfather is looking for it right now i could really care less if its real or not i could live my life with or without any of the money and if it was real i wasnt going to sell it anyway i just got on here for some advise and instead i got put down by a bunch of so called professionals who act more like a bunch of kids in a chat room except those of you who tried to give me advise that i am going with i am going to send it off i am waiting on the package right now and i am sorry that it turned into a big comedy show and yes i do live in tenn chattanooga so i dont know how you got buffalo

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>that you have not read the majority of these posts. Otherwise you wouldn't come back insulting us. We tried to help. Guess you just won't listen. <br /><br />I hereby ask that the moderator lock this loser out.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jesika- Steve is correct. I made the statement that there is no possibility that your card is genuine. That was not an insult but a professional opinion. I have handled vintage cards for 25 years, and many board members are equally knowledgeable, if not more so. You mention in your last post you will "send the card off." Does that mean you still harbor hopes of it being genuine? If that is the case, you are bypassing the advice of all the experts here who are telling you to not even waste your time, as it is 100% guaranteed to come back labelled "reprint."