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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Since Jim (our resident backbone of the hobby) collector brought it up I figure I will throw a quick snapshot of the forum hits this month. I don't think we are quite dieing on the vine yet <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.....btw, except for saying "armpit" I don't remember any barbs being thrown. I would have to care to throw jabs and I don't.....I hope everyone participates on the board but if you choose not to then that's fine too.....best regards<br /><br />Thu, Feb 1... 28,482... Thu, Feb 15... 24,801 <br /> <br />Fri, Feb 2... 24,970... Fri, Feb 16... 25,114 <br /> <br />Sat, Feb 3... 23,063... Sat, Feb 17... 20,980 <br /> <br />Sun, Feb 4... 23,066... Sun, Feb 18... 22,327 <br /> <br />Mon, Feb 5... 29,576... Mon, Feb 19... 27,260 <br /> <br />Tue, Feb 6... 27,672... Tue, Feb 20... 25,404 <br /> <br />Wed, Feb 7... 27,389... Wed, Feb 21... 25,365 <br /> <br />Thu, Feb 8... 25,779... Thu, Feb 22... 28,195 <br /> <br />Fri, Feb 9... 24,386... Fri, Feb 23... 22,166 <br /> <br />Sat, Feb 10... 19,350... Sat, Feb 24... 23,368 <br /> <br />Sun, Feb 11... 24,199... Sun, Feb 25... 26,930 <br /> <br />Mon, Feb 12... 30,047... Mon, Feb 26... 0 <br /> <br />Tue, Feb 13... 25,568... Tue, Feb 27... 0 <br /> <br />Wed, Feb 14... 23,988... Wed, Feb 28... 0 <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />
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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Those look like good numbers!! Are those different IP address or pages looked at? Not sure how to decipher those numbers? <br /><br />Nevermind.. I just re-read it.. Pages viewed... What is the average pages view per IP address.. Better question..
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Those are page views....we are steady at almost exactly 1000 unique IP's on the weekends and about 1200-1250 during the week. I continue to say we have about 1000 people a day looking at the board and I believe this number to be very accurate.....regards
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />There you go again--I never called myself the backbone of the hobby or even insinuated it. Why don't you run the board fair and objectively instead of getting your digs at me and basically telling lies?<br /><br />And how does 20-30,000 compare with the best days when we broke the Mastro takes creases out of cards thread?
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Basically Leon, these numbers mean nothing without comparing them to the days of alterations and when it was debated what consitituted alterations.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Did you forget this...?? Who's the liar here?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1165795670/last-1166275444/Re-+About+soaking+cards" target="_new">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1165795670/last-1166275444/Re-+About+soaking+cards</a>
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Exactly my point--its obviously you.<br /><br />Do you need glasses?
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You said....<br /><br />"The PSA 8 and above collectors I consider to be the backbone of the hobby"<br /><br />Is there something I am missing here? Can you read? <br /><br />btw Jim...in case you don't get it you can click on the little link I posted...which is where you will see your foot sticking out of your mouth...
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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />If Leon is mistaken on the backbone comment, then so am I. If you say that PSA 8+ collectors are the backbone of the hobby, and it is well known that you are a PSA 8+ collector, then you are saying you are part of the backbone of the hobby. If I'm missing something say so - I'd like to think there was a different intent as I was kind of offended by the comment.<br /><br />Of course, not nearly as offended as bruce's "rot in their little shacks" comment. Really now. When it comes to offensiveness, you are not in his league!<br /><br />Joann
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Joann,<br /><br />PSA 8 collectors as a group are--not me--I would play a tiny part in this. One can infer by Leon's comment that I said I was the backbone of the hobby which is ridiculous. But he just looks for ways to try to get in his digs against me.<br /><br />I also clarified my remarks and said that by backbone that over 50% of the total volume of cards sold in the hobby was graded cards--and the number is increasing rapidly. There will be a time that the vast majority is graded and that virtually all cards of any value will be in graded card holders--and at that time there will be non-graded collectors on Network 54 that will still insist they are the backbone of the hobby.<br /><br />If you are a non-graded collector and you are offended by that I'm sorry.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Good one Leon,<br /><br />Keep insulting me--but you blew it again--you would like everyone to believe that I said I was the backbone of the hobby not graded card collectors as a whole.But its easier to lie which you are repeatedly doing.<br /><br />And by the way where are those page hits from the peak when the Mastronet story broke and how much are you down from those levels?<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Yeah, but Jim you are our resident backbone...I don't know of any other collectors on Net54 who are exclusively PSA8+ collectors.<br /><br />JoAnn is right though in stating that you have a long way to go to catch up with Bruce as far as arrogance goes, but when it comes to annoying you are far more annoying than Adam Moraine ever even aspired to be so you got that going for you. At least Bruce can say he has been helpful at times...I have not seen you once post useful information or help another collector with their question(s) on this board.
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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Who gives a crap?<br /><br />Robert
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Since you said that remark, referring to your group of collectors that collect high grade, it's been a running joke that the rest of us are "armpit" collectors. I will forever be indebted to you for that. BTW, the court of public opinion would definitely find you guilty here ....You can say what you want to now but your words in that thread spoke volumes.... The only other thing I will say is that I have absolutely nothing against "graded" or high end graded collectors. It's all good in my book...I am done arguing with you. As Judge Judy says "once you win you need to shut up".....which is what I will do now...take care now...and welcome back....<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Sorry Bretta--I don't believe I have ever seen anything you have written be of any interest of all--in fact the only post you have ever made that I even remember is your punk rock one. I got comments about by Mastronet post like "post of the century".
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Why are you here Jim? Cite one post where you have actually helped a collector.
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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Heck with this. I'm the backbone now. I'm taking over, but just got to figure out how, or why.....
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />I never left--and if you have to repeatedly lie to win then I feel sorry for you. Of course everyone will agree with the moderator--Jay, Scott and the 65 or so others who didn't have formed their own board--you are left mainly with those who agree.<br /><br />And yes, there are not many graded card collectors on this board--you set such an unwelcome tone for them that they stay on the PSA boards.<br /><br />And then you constantly try to get in your digs against me. <br /><br />Kind of sad.<br /><br />And its no argument at all if you do not sight the page counts from the peak--how much are you down --20%? 30%?<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bretta,<br /><br />Fair questrion--not to discuss punk rock.<br /><br />Not here to help collectors--I am here to here about serious issues in the hobby from what I thought were serious collectors. Thought at one time that this board could be a vehicle to change the hobby. No longer believe that. Decideds to jumpin this time because you decided to insult me. Now I learned that you have contributed 2 things--punk rock info and insulting me.
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Crandell, I think most people would be serious about helping you, but you come off as so arrogant and offensive nobody wants to help you anymore. You have the self-awareness of a rock. You are your own worst enemy.<br /><br />edited to add: go back and read some of the threads you started about the issues you have and you will see that many of the people who were with you no loathe you. I wonder what happened???
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Sorry Bretta you idiot,<br /><br />Go wreck another serious thread with your punk rock posts--I have plenty of people who are in agreement that something needs to be done--several of them on this board.<br /><br />Can't you start a music board so you can make a contribution.
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Dear Jim, a question ends with a question mark.<br /><br />it looks like this ---> ?<br /><br />you will find it on the bottom row of your keyboard next to the "Shift" key which you will also have to press at the same time you press the "?" key.<br /><br />Hope this helps.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bretta,<br /><br />You are an idiot(not a question).
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>You are an intellectual heavyweight Jim.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Only when compared with you.
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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>wow, this is like listening to a bunch of 3rd graders. I cant wait to see who will be the first to throw down with some sticks and stones action?
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Boy, when you go to bed early like I do you sure miss all the fun...I'll have to start drinking black coffee after dinner so I can stay up.
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Posted By: <b>Matt E.</b><p>These traits are how I view Net 54 after just two years of reading and posting. <br />How can posting a bunch of numbers turn into this? I don't really care who is where and what used to be. I just like the familiarity of our site and feel a part of something (take the good with the BS)<br /><br />At our Net 54 Dinner I would like to sit by those who can help the "collector" and here (sic) what I say.<br /><br />Check out that T205 Drum I just bought on Ebay last night. Hey, I am pretty serious about what I collect. I don't care what I paid, I needed it for my back collection.<br /> <br />What PSA number does serious start at?<br /><br />Make room for the serious little guy who is just having fun collecting cards.
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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>even people's spelling went down the tubes during this little fight out by the bike racks!<br /><br />Is this what happens at card shows? Cuz if it is, then I gotta get out more and hang around some of the hot spots...and wait for tempers to flare!<br /><br />I collect PSA8+ as well, but those are generally cards mfr'd after 1970...does that count? Because if it does, I wouldn't mind being a backbone...just so long as I don't have to be the TAILbone, so to speak<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>The following things determine what kind of cards I collect: <br /><br />Rarity; how bad I need (want) a card; how many might be in existance;(rarity)<br />condition; <br /><br />If I find, or have a card, slabbed or unslabbed, and it is a legit grade 8 or higher, not colored, not soaked, not squished, not trimmed, then I guess I am wondering why so many people have a problem with grade 8's and up ? I have some grade 8's I would deal or trade, and some grade 2's I wouldn't. What is it with grade 8 and higher hate mongering. For the record I hate card tampering. I've been burned like we all have. By some well know dealers. can someone tell me why a 'real" grade 8 or better is so maligned?<br />Jealousy?<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>is on the right track, I think...it's not the grade itself, or probably even the card itself, that draws the attention or the ire,...I think it simply has come to symbolize a division. A division of tastes, a division of budgets and financial capability...a division of the very peoples involved!!! (Say this part in your best televangelist voice)<br /><br />Of course there is nothing wrong with a vintage (or otherwise) PSA 8 card. Many many folk would prefer to have one, if given the chance. Most people cannot afford them. Jealousy and envy are natural emotions that are evoked in those who don't have the financial means to obtain these cards. So those who are uncomfortable with having to relegate their collecting habits to affordable endeavors have to also dial down their tastes, if they can, and tell themselves they are happy with less. When that doesn't happen smoothly, you get unbecoming behaviors. Conversely, the opposite can be true of high grade collectors with financial means to out-spend most folk, and sometimes you get bahaviors that are arrogant or without understanding of those who would accept less for thier collection. <br /><br />It's a class struggle. Pure and simple. The mutual loathing of each other for the have's and the have-nots continues in the world of card collecting!<br /><br />I lost an Ebay auction for a gorgeous lower-grade T206 Lajoie w/bat last night. I was out of my league and my uncharacteristic bidding history tells that tale...I was surprised by the escalating price, and I was torn between wanting that card (real BAD!), and my own financial limits...sucks, but you gotta live to fight another day...<br /><br />Hopefully most people can at least understand THAT, and respect it...<br /><br />Of course, I want PSA 8 cards, but I will take the best that I can get, emphasis on I...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jason is absolutely right. Nothing wrong with PSA 8's, they are beautiful cards. But it seems to divide the haves and have nots, and then it starts to get personal. If PSA 8's weren't so expensive, it wouldn't even be an issue.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I don't think anyone has a problem with PSA 8 collectors per se; what started the divide was the obnoxious tone from the high grade and the low grade sides. No one gives a damn about who collects what here. I'd like to think we're all in this together to some extent and while jealousy is a normal response so is respect and humility. Unfortunately, some collectors are just beyond obnoxious and offend at every turn -- thereby making it appear that an attack on them is an attack on their collection habits.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Everyone should realize that some collectors have high incomes and more disposable cash, and often choose to pursue higher grade and more expensive cards. Those on a lower budget generally find PSA 8 cards out of reach. It's just a matter of accepting that that is life. I own a nice home; I have seen bigger ones and I have seen smaller ones. I try to neither envy those in mansions, nor look down at those in cottages. It's just the way life is. Same with baseball cards. Some have more, some less. It's the sensitivity or lack of it exhibited by some collectors that ruffles the feathers of others.
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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Let me digress for a moment. As a child I grew up about as middle class as was possible. In fact someone did a study, as to which suburb surrounding our cities was the most "average" or middle class.. Out of 80 or so, you got it, it was the one I grew up in. So I never really saw a difference between famiies. All were pretty much the same. I seem to recall, like three kids I knew, who seemed to have some dough in their families. Turns out even they were very middle class. So, to this day, I guess I just don't worry about "classes". I know some do, and some get real PO'd when confronted with folks who appear to have more than they do. With heavy emphasis on the word "appear". if you make $10M per year and spend $12M, I don't consider that wealthy. To sum it up, I feel sorry for people who waste their energy and emotion on jealousy, or envy. Collect what you like, and can afford, and everyone else can just go fly a kite. Do I wish I owned the McNall/Gretzsky (spelling) Wagner, sure. But I never will. But I am sure their are plenty of folks who love my Foxx - Miller Grade 5, but can't afford it. To each their own. Collect away .........I was beat out yesterday on something I really wanted. It was a genuine letter written from a civil war camp. where a prisoner talked about the soldiers playing baseball to kill time. I came in second. Do I hate the winner? Did I call him names or send him dirty e mails? Of course not.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Well said....
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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>and it is usually an insecurity of some sort that causes folks to lash out in an offensive manner....the ol' "he must be compensating for something" ...<br /><br />My insecurities are numerous and legendary, but I choose to lash out by yelling profanities at the TV set during sporting events and the Oscars red-carpet show.<br /><br />Mike, wait ....-you don't send angry emails to the Ebay winners?? Should I not do that? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />
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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Jim C, you've just lost me.<br />Tried to hang in there because I believed in some of what you fight for, but truth be known you're a pretty unpleasant individual on the boards to read and listen to. When you find constant fault and disagreement with the more amenable, amiable, and reasoning contributors who post (or moderate), your lack of people skills and charm overwhelms all else.<br /><br />Good luck to you, but your support ebbs rapidly.<br /><br />Daniel
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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>jim,<br />when i said your mastro thread was "post of the century",<br />what i really meant to say was "please don't post for another 100 years", sorry if i was unclear.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Damn that was funny!!
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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jason/Mike - <br /><br />Jealousy/Envy is not what has caused this divide. Read Jeff's post above - he is right on point as to why this divide occurred. It also isnt really a divide between low grade and high grade collectors. Its a divide between those high graded collectors that look down upon the rest of us or act condescendingly toward those who collect lower grade cards. I personally have nothing against Jim, but he has made several comments that have rubbed many the wrong way. Same situation with Bruce Dorskin. Other high end collectors (for example Hal - who has one of the finest collections out there) seem to have no problems with the majority of the board members. I assure you if it were a jealousy issue, Hal would be on the preverbial 10 most wanted list around here.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Andy, that was the post of the century. Very funny.
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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>agreed.<br /><br />but I just like to go off on tangents about human behavior on occasion in an attempt to rationalize my own problems in dealing with people (and lost Ebay auctions).<br /><br />Ok, I'll say it...most of my posts are actually just about me. You may not see it at first, but they are...-veiled attempts to be relevant, and cool.<br /><br />At least the chips I just had with lunch don't have any Trans Fats!<br /><br />(admittedly, I am a little punchy for a Monday, but I was reduced to sweaty mess from shovelling snow for an hour before going to work, so I don't got a whole lot left...)<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Tim James</b><p>Maybe Adam Moraine has a new handle. It seems like the same argument we've heard before.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Adam J. Moraine is the backbone of the hobby?
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Posted By: <b>Tim James</b><p>I'm not implying that, but the discourse reminded me of that era of the board. The antagonist of this thread said that he wouldn't be considered part of the PSA 8 crowd, only "a tiny part".
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />Doesn't matter one way or another.<br /><br />Lot of it is petty jealousies--lot of it is old time collectors who see the wave of the future coming and they don't like it. Lastly most (perhaps everyone but me?) are on the board for social reasons and agree its always easy to take the popular side. Especially when you have a moderator who likes to pile on and his digs in at every opportunity.<br /><br />I just care about serious issues related to the hobby and could care less about the rest. If there is nothing interesting discussed then I may not post much except when others attack me and then I will usually defend myself which usually makes it worse because of the socual reasons thing. Thats what happened this time. I have no reason to attack anyone on this board--and have never done it.<br /><br />Anyway, one has to presume that posts are down from the peak days as Leon is refusing to answer the question. But here is a prediction--he will find a way to insult me.<br /><br />Those that care about card restoration will find another vehicle to make there concerns felt --and the card doctors will breathe a sigh of relief--as for the near-term they have dodged a bullet--and the collectors of ungraded cards will sit in ignorant bliss<br />with their altered cards.<br /><br />If anyone wants to debate the issues great--if you are one of the ones that want to respond with another personal attack--why don't you just stop?<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I answered you before but as usual you only read what you want to read. I said that the traffic on the site is about the same it has been. (for the last 6-8 months)....Go look in the other thread where you kept asking me the same question. I answered you there as that's where you asked me repeatedly. Have you ever wondered why it is that "everyone else is always wrong?" I have said it before but will again. Jim- I don't hate you, I don't even dislike you. I don't know you that well personally. I don't care what you collect and hope you enjoy the hobby as much as the rest of us. best regards
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Posted By: <b>Bill</b><p>Leon- Thanks for editing that post in the last thread for me.<br /><br />Maybe we should get together, set up voice communications, and all sing kumbaya. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Everyone else isn't always wrong. People are entitled to their opinions and I was hoping that this board could be that without the personal attacks.<br /><br />You must not be reading what I ask--so for about the 5th or 6th time I will ask it again--what was the number of hits on the day that the Mastronet creases out of cards thread hit and the days following when this was a significant issue? I never asked you about the month to date numbers which you keep wanting to give me.
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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I don't think I can sing kumbaya right now. I'm busy rotting in my little shack, in ignorant bliss, contemplating my life as an socially focused armpit collector and trying to decide if I'm offended by someone's description of a hobby in which I play no role because I do not collect investment-grade cards.<br /><br />Joann
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Also Leon, to once again clarify I never said you hated me, I think I love the hobby more than anyone, and all I ever asked you to do was stop constantly getting in your digs at me on the board.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Joann,<br /><br />Noone said you don't play a role--probably a diminished role but a role nevertheless. Just that more of the hobby is going over to high end graded cards.
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>You continue to be abrasive and pompous. The fires you seem to enjoy igniting are a throw-up fest to the hobby in general.<br /><br />Dave
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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Oh. Ok. Well, thanks for that anyways.<br /><br />Hmmm. Late for work so do I really want to go into this now?<br /><br />Look. By measure of most money in auctions, the high end cards arguably make up more than 50%.<br /><br />But by number of collectors, surely the low to mid grade collectors make up > 50%.<br /><br />Perhaps owners of extremely rare cards could argue that they have a solid foundation in percent dollars in the hobby - maybe even more than half - and therefore they are the backbone.<br /><br />Maybe the set collectors are the backbone of the hobby. If they all dumped sets into auctions at the rate that high-end singles get dumped in, surely the money realized from sets would exceed 50%.<br /><br />By number of cards sold - not dollar value and not collectors, but number of cards sold, well then we are back to the low to mid-grades as representing > 50%.<br /><br />So you see, the definition of backbone of the hobby, the greater-than-half group, etc is totally dependent on which measure you choose to use. And I don't know who elected anyone card-queen-for-the-day to decide that total dollars in auctions is the right measure.<br /><br />Certainly the captains of industry among us will argue that sales and dollars are the only reasonable measure, but this is not commerce or industry. It's a hobby. <br /><br />I suggest that the definition of backbone of the hobby is open to far more discussion, and representation of dollars spent it not necessarily the measure just because the high-dollar spenders say it is.<br /><br />Joann<br /><br />Edited to add: And I'll further suggest that maybe the backbone of the hobby isn't measurable at all. Passion, enthusiasm, the dogged research by people like Dan Bretta that truly love the hobby, general knowledge, etc - how can the group with these characteristics not be strong candidates for backbone???
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Joann,<br /><br />Excellent points. You are an intelligent thoughtful woman and you may well be correct in many of your points.<br /><br />I clarified my backbone comment shortly thereafter and said it was a poor choice of words and what I meant was that the dollar value of all cards transacted is in my opinion over 50% graded(the vast majority high-end graded) and growing rapidly.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Thank you Jim. I will drop the backbone comments.<br /><br />J
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>dave,<br /><br />Sorry you feel that way over my opinions--here is a suggestion--ignore those posts where I offer opinions and post where you find interest. Your insulting comments are exactly what is wrong with the board.
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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I collect for fun. i said in a previous thread, I wish prices would drop quite a bit. the threads concerning cost, profit, loss, appreciation, future prices, past prices, good deal, bad deal, makes it sound like soybean futures. THEY are baseball cards. If the value of my collection dropped 50% in the next hour, I couldn't care less. It certainly would make hunting for the holes in my collection a lot more fun. "Does anybody remember fun"?<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Quite the opposite. I find your "left field" ravings of great interest. I don't even know at this point if you believe what you say on here half the time or if it is just enjoyable for you to stir things up on the board. <br /><br />The majority of collectors have went to high-grade? Again Jim...this is not the CU boards....this is not a majority of collectors putting together 1974 Topps sets...<br /><br />Dave
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- to further Dave's point, a large number of vintage collectors on this board go after rare and obscure material, much of which doesn't even have a single example that has ever been graded PSA 8. So if you like E103's, E107's, T222's, or any number of condition sensitive issues, there would be nothing to buy.
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Posted By: <b>Tom Botticelli</b><p>IMHO - I believe the hobby is really seperated into two spheres: One is the measurable part, the price paid, which the explicit values are easily measured and seen. The second sphere is the implicit values, which are the unseen rewards, the friends made, learning about the history of the game, interacting with collectors and the immeasurable knowledge being shared by everyone on this board. To me, these two spheres make up the hobby, but I don't believe one outweighs the other. I think the problem really lies between what is easily measured and what is not easily measured. I value the second sphere more because I receive higher rewards and enjoyment from the interaction between collectors and from learning about the history of the game then from paying high values for pre-war cards. I am in no way diminishing the people who receive higher rewards from buying high grade cards it is just different then what I value. <br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Tom
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>What this HOBBY needs is about another 1000 Jim Crandalls. <br /><br />Then, there would be so much frenzy over grades, card soaking, slabbing of slabs, population reports, and the like, that the hobby of card collecting would completely crash (I would hope). The JCs could march off. Then the rest of us who just like to collect cards and aren't that concerned about card values or whether someone touched a card, the rest of us could resume card collecting.<br /><br />So I'm all for Jim, and a thousand more like him. Let them crusade against everything. "So Be It!" <br /><br />My personal card collecting hobby focuses on the players and the history of the game, reaching back in time with pieces of cardboard and paper (I kinda like the little strip cards, didn't at first) that are contemporary with the players' careers. My hobby is not about seeking out a PSA 8 or 9 of anything. <br />
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I thought I'd post this for you Jim. Obviously it is a PSA 2...which in your mind is hideous, undesriable, and for the collector that doesn't matter so much...to me however it's the perfect example of what a 100 year old card SHOULD look like...and it's the reason I collect..<br /><img src="http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/asphaltman76/T206%20set/perringfront.jpg">
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Thank you--I try to make things interesting. If I did not say it clearly I meant the dollar value of all card transactions is moving to graded and within that moving to high grade. Numbers of collectors--not sure.<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />Obviously--I was including those.<br /><br />Tom,<br /><br />Excellent post. I think almost everyone here would put more value on the second--except me. I am trying to complete high grade sets 1887-1970--all sports and non sports. I love learning about the game but the other things don't mean much to me. If they do to others--great.<br /><br />Frank,<br /><br />1,000 Jim Crandells--wow. I agree--the only thing I doffer with you Frank is you go out of your way to criticise graded cards and graded card collectors. Just collect what you want and ignore the graded card/card alteration/hobby issues posts.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Great--collect what makes you happy--I am happy for you. It would make me unhappy to have a card like that--but that doesn't mean that one way of collecting is better than the other.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...to four people in one post on one thread, then you should take a moment for quiet reflection.
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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Dave:<br /><br />I agree.<br /><br />Barry:<br /><br />I agree.<br /><br />Tom:<br /><br />Very well put.<br /><br />Frank:<br /><br />I agree.<br /><br />Jim:<br /><br />I don't really know what to say.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I don't criticize all collectors of graded cards...
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I think that was just another absurd comment from Jim. I can't recall a post where I remember you getting on anybody with a graded card because it was a graded card...
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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I think card collectors in general spend way too much time ragging on what other people choose to collect. What difference does it make?<br /><br />Why is it bad to collect 8s? I don't think it's bad to collect 8s - they're beautiful. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.swingbattaswing.com/page1/page6/files/page6-1029-full.jpg"><br /><br />Why is it bad to collect low-grade? I don't think it is. Low-grade cards are beautiful, too.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.swingbattaswing.com/page1/page5/files/page5-1013-full.jpg"><br /><br />There's room in this hobby for everybody, and frankly it's getting tiresome to read the same dumb argument over and over again. This hobby is very much symbiotic between the low and high-grade collector. The demand for one props up the demand for the other.<br /><br />Jim, you don't pay any attention to prices realized on low-grade cards, so it's safe to say that you haven't seen the dramatic price increases that many buyers of those cards have seen in the last few years, or the immense volume of material that changes hands every single day. However, buyers of low-grade cards probably haven't tracked high-grade sales, either, and those prices have been equally healthy. <br /><br />The condescending posts I occasionally read from high-grade collectors are no worse than the condescending posts I occasionally read from low-grade collectors, mid-grade collectors, raw collectors or graded collectors. A person's nature has nothing to do with what they collect, it has to do with their character, and whenever you get a group of people together in a public forum, you're bound to have some bad apples.<br /><br />What bugs me is how frequently this discussion happens, and how quickly the comments get personal. Same discussion over and over, same people on both sides of the fence, same result every time. Don't you folks get weary of it after a while? It's CARDBOARD, for crying out loud. It's ALL remarkable, it's ALL got history, and it's ALL worth collecting if you're passionate about it. The issues that impact one segment of the hobby impact EVERY segment of the hobby, and I cannot, for the life of me, understand all the animosity. If I want tension, I'll go to the office.<br /><br />-Al
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave--would you like to place a wager on that?
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>There were probably about 3k more hits to the front page on the day of the Mastro thread (though I don't remember the exact numbers). There were probably 5k more on the days of the JP Cohen thread, otherwise the numbers have been about the same. What I tried to show is that the board has been pretty steady, in number of hits, except for the occasional pile up. Hope this helps. <br /><br />edited spellin'
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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"Noone said you don't play a role--probably a diminished role but a role nevertheless."<br /><br />That statement about says it all. Jim, do you even read what you have written before posting or do you go out of your way to be insulting?
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I haven't been anal enough to go back through each thread and try to find a sentence Frank wrote somewhere about a card being graded. I can say that it hasn't come to my attention of Frank being one of the constant slab bashers on this board. <br /><br />By the way Jim....all of those PSA 8's and 9's you own...just how many are exactly T206's or the likes?
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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Very, very nicely put Al.<br /><br /><br />Daniel
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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />While much that Jim says could use some editing before it is posted, I think his comments on Frank's tendency to bash slabs and the grading process any chance he gets is a fair one. I will admit its really gotten on my nerves lately.
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>And what is even more humorous is how easily you get upset if someone is "digging on you". You don't like low grade T206's like the one above...terrific that means more for the rest of us. You probably even get a good chuckle when someone posts on the recent pickup thread a low grade E94 Cobb....
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />You are wrong on Frank--its anti-graded cards all the time--don't see how you could miss it.<br /><br />I have over 150 T206 psa 8s and 9s--have been pruning back a little on the commmons as prices for low pop psa 8 commons push through $6,000.<br /><br />JK,<br /><br />Sorry--that is not insulting to me. Why is saying a person plays a diminished role in something insulting.<br />I play a diminished role in collecting high grade T206s. But I would not be insulted if someone pointed this out.<br /><br /><br /><br />Leon,<br /><br />Whew--that was like pulling teeth--and no insults this time--is this a new leaf?
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, please stop insulting Leon, it's really tiresome.
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