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Posted By: <b>arcade</b><p>Many of you may recall that after a lot of discussion and self promotion, Bobby offered members of this forum the ability to receive a refund on their membership to Vintage Card Pricing. This was instead of a free trial period that some of us requested.<br /><br />Well I took him up on that offer, and it didn't take me long to evaluate his service and see it was not suited for me or my collecting tastes. About 90% of my searches came up empty or with too little data to be worthwhile. <br /><br />His welcome email came on September 3, 2006 8:54am, and he was able to respond to my cancellation request by 6:56 pm of the same day. Should have been cut and dry with a reverse charge, right?<br /><br />Six months later, I notice the VCD charge on my account is apparently reoccurring, and my account was never canceled. I contacted Bobby today, and he responded telling me I've been a member since September, and there was never a trial period. Hmm. Either way, I was under the impression my account was canceled when requested, and I haven't signed in to use the site since that time.<br /> <br />I do feel the need to make this issue public, because a) he indirectly used this site to solicit business, and b) I'm figuring this was a genuine mistake on his part, which might prompt others just to keep an eye on the billing - just in case. <br /><br />I wish Bobby well with the project, and hope that this was a fluke incident. From what I can gather, Bobby aims to run a professional site, that will become a standard tool in the future...and that's why I trust he'll see to it that this error is corrected with a full refund for any unauthorized past charges. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Warning??<br /><br />At some point one has to take responsibility for his/her own acts or in this case omissions. You didn't notice the reoccuring (sic) charge for six months!<br /><br />And just so I further understand this, you gave the site a ten hour chance?<br /><br />And finally, at least for me as I'll let others wade in now, you spoke with Bobby just this morning and felt the need to post this without giving him the time to work it out?<br /><br />Steve Murray

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree with Steve that you should have taken this matter up privately with Bobby instead of embarrassing him on the board. Bobby is a really good guy with a great product that is still in its infancy. He is adding prices to his database on a daily basis. And I am sure he will work with you to resolve this matter.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>In my own experience anyway the last thing Bobby is trying to do is take anybody for money undue. He has personally helped me with some things where money wasn't even involved. <br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>I have to agree with Steve M's opinion here. You sent an e-mail to cancel 6 months ago. Never heard from Bobby, never got a cancellation or return e-mail, never checked your credit card charges, (thats just plain ****** anyway), you did nothing to follow up, and now its all Bobby's fault, and lets go public with it??? Thats just wrong.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well let me see... I want to cancel. But don't cancel me if you can sneak in a charge on my credit card and I don't notice... 'cause if I don't notice it, then I didn't really intend to cancel. Come to think of it, ANYTHING you decide to put on my credit card is fine with me, as long as I don't notice. Sell me a 1989 Topps set in vg condition for $2500, fine with me as long as I don't notice...<br /><br /><br />Nonsense. A cancellation is exactly that. And unauthorized charges after only one cancellation notice are still unauthorized. Not noticing them doesn't validate them.<br /><br />I agree that this matter should not have been published here, but that's because Bobby should have said he was sorry and reversed the charges. And you should have noticed before 6 months, but that doesn't mean you've agreed to them. Golly, if I steal Barry's newspaper every Saturday out of his front yard (you guys have front yards up there?), each theft is a crime, not just the one he finally notices.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I agree with what the judge said. And I don't think Bobby is a thief, either; I think it was just a screw-up. <br /><br />And Judge, if you want to steal my newspapers you'll have to get past two very angry doormen and an overfed, barking shih-tzu on the other side of the front door... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>I agree that "failure to notice" does not validate the charges. If the service was cancelled the provider should process a refund. <br /><br />What I object to is airing this on this board without, apparently, having made any reasonable effort to resolve it offline.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Frank- the NY Times and Wall Street Journal are outside my door every morning...but I wouldn't call it a front yard. It's just a cement walkway attached to the sidewalk.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>That was very well said.<br /><br />I didn't quite see it your way, until your post.<br /><br /><br />For me - In short: this shouldn't have been posted here in the first place (bad form by edacra). I am sure Bobby would have handled this correctly if given the time. Wouldn't it be easy for Bobby to see if edacra is being truthful and had not logged in during the six months? Should be. <br /><br />Edacra didn't notice the charges on his statement - that does not justify the charges. Should he be more diligent in checking his credit card statement? Of course. But again, that doesn't justify the charges.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />We find it difficult to believe that someone whose instincts are so petty as to<br />take what is clearly a private misunderstanding over a nominal amount of<br />money, (less than $100) public could review his credit card bill for<br /> six consecutive months and miss the same charge.<br /><br />Assuming you are not sight impaired, you have no excuses.<br /><br />We also wonder what it is that you collect that is so rare that there weren't<br />any relevant items for which Vintage Card prices published auction results.<br /><br />In fact, if you had taken a moment to undertaken minimum due diligence you<br />could determine the extent to which VCP had price information that was <br />of interest to you.<br /><br />Our experience with Bobby has been 100% positive. He is working diligently to<br />build the platform for what could be a substantial company. He is responsive<br />to users' comments and quick to make an adjustment when it is necessary.<br /><br /><br />Finally, we wonder if you ever visited VCP during the six months following your<br />10 hour cancellation. We also wonder how many magazine subscriptions,<br />cable tv services and other subscription-based services you have cancelled<br />and found that six months later you were still being invoiced. <br /><br />Tell us, if you can about the experiences you have had with the publishers<br />and MSO's after you reminded them that you cancelled six months ago.<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind <br />America's Toughest Want List<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>mark</b><p>For $10 a month, how can you say its not worth it. It has saved me 10x that so far.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>By way of full disclosure I signed on for a year and will renew when it comes up. I have saved hundreds of dollars.<br /><br />One example is that there was a card offered on ebay with a BIN that I was ready to pay. Checking VCP I found that the actual card had sold two months earlier for $1,000 less. That knowledge enabled me to pass on the BIN and to make an offer that was more in line with the market.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I should have added that I was not implying that Bobby was a thief. I apologize for that unfair, unintended implication. But I would be if I ripped off those newspapers.<br /><br />Bobby should reverse the charges. Then "Arcade" should praise him here for doing it.<br /><br />And I'll stay out of NYC so the papers will be safe. So it's thin pizza up there...

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Our Neopolitan slices, now $2 a pop, are the best <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Some fine brick oven around, too (one famous one in my neighborhood)

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>It was a surprise to see this post after just waking up and turning on my computer first thing this morning.<br /><br />Yes I offered free trials to the members of this board when we launched in June of last year and told them to sign up as a limited non-paying member and contact me and I would upgrade them to VIP for 2 weeks. This process would not involve any person entering any credit card information at all.<br /><br />edcara aka Barak XXXXX signed up for the service on 9/3/06 as a full paying member and never contacted me until last night 9:38PM. I never knew of any request or dissatisfaction with our services that we provide and it was new to me. So far we have had very few people cancel their memberships and we always send out a letter to verify. Quan was one such member who did this and has recently signed up again. I am on the computer 15-18 hours a day and respond to everyones requests as promptly as humanly possible. If I have made an error then I will honor it and refund Mr. Barak XXXXX his money. <br /><br />It would of been nice if he would of given me at least a chance to work something out before he made this post on the board at 5:52 AM, which by the way is shortly before 3AM where I live.<br /><br />I am sorry that this was brought out here is a public format and I feel he is trying to damage my company with his statements.<br /><br />edited last name 2nd time

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Not a way to wake up... sorry about that, Bobby.<br /><br />Maybe he gets the charges reversed and he posts one fine apology, admitting that he should have tried to haggle it out with you first.<br /><br /><br />And maybe Leon will sneak over to Shiner Texas, where that wonderful Shiner Bock beer is brewed. I think I could choke down even NY or Chicago pizza if I had some of that fine Texas beer to wash it down.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Frank, NYC has a ton of problems but pizza is not one of them. Pizza, steaks and bagels are top-notch here (as well as the more sophisticated, overpriced restaurants in the world). I remember going back to visit Duke for a basketball game a few years back and the wife and I were unable to find a damn decent bagel in the entire Durham/Chapel Hill area. Drove us nuts. You are officially invited to the NYC Dinner Thread III Dinner in which we will find you the best pizza you have ever tasted.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Jeff, I humbly accept your gracious offer. I'll try to behave while in your great city, the epicenter of civilization. Now I just have to figure out how to get away for a few days... If I solve that, I'll let you guys know in advance. I'd rather make it to one of your dinners than see a Broadway show.<br /><br />Frank.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>just an unfortunate misunderstanding that perhaps could have been handled better. A hiccup in the world of commerce. I don't believe anything was intentional or malicious here, and I'm sure it can all be worked out.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Frank, I just came back from the M & M store on Broadway with my two 2 1/2 year old boys and I can say with great certainty that NYC is certainly the epicenter of civilization. Or something else, perhaps. As for the dinner v. a Broadway show, my brother is a ticket broker for NYC events and I haven't seen a show in like 3 years. But I'm a Philistine so it's not too surprising. And I'm sure you'll behave yourself while you're here -- if not, I can guarantee you the finest criminal defense attorney in the city to advocate for you -- and he also has a minor working knowledge of vintage baseball cards! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jeff- I usually get my pizza from the local joint around the corner, or splurge occasionally for Patsy's (they changed the name, I forgot the new one) brick oven under the Brooklyn Bridge. Maybe a good Manhattan pizza establishment would be a good choice for our Spring get together.

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Posted By: <b>arcade</b><p>I never called Bobby a thief either. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, and my post states I believe this was an error.<br /><br />However, he has also just stated that I never contacted him until last night. This is false, and concerning.<br /><br />Note my Private Message history from Vintage Card Pricing.<br /><br /> Message Title Sender Date <br />Read Msg Your cancel Bobby [ Block ] Sep 3 2006, 06:56 PM <br />Read Msg Welcome Bobby [ Block ] Sep 3 2006, 08:54 AM<br /><br /><br /><br />Your cancel, Sep 3 2006, 06:56 PM<br />Advanced Member<br /><br />Group: Root Admin<br />Posts: 60<br />Member No.: 3<br />Joined: 15-May 06<br /><br />[QUOTE]Hi Bobby,<br /><br />Thanks for the note. Unfortunately, I'm thinking I'd actually like to cancel my account. Very few of my searches are coming up with results.<br /><br />Thanks for your understanding.<br /><br />Barak<br /><br />[QUOTE]Barak,<br /><br />Barak,<br /><br />Taking note of your cancellaiton...what is it you are searching for?<br /><br />Bobby<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>arcade</b><p>Here is the email I received...<br /><br />"Barak,<br /><br />You would need to send me this email you claim to have and I made this<br />deal on Net 54 in June when we launched not September. I also told them<br />to sign up as a limited member and notify me via email and I would<br />upgrade them for the duration. Never once did I say to use a credit card<br />for a free offer. I will cancel out your account but will not be issuing<br />a refund,<br /><br />I remember you wanting to cancel then you changed your mind and said you<br />would keep the membership for the time being.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Bobby"<br /><br /><br />I NEVER said I would keep my membership. Again, he can verify the PM he sent me, and verify my usage on the site.<br /><br />I guess my instincts were correct in taking this public. Bobby has the chance to resolve a simple matter that many here have already deemed to be petty. If he wants to claim I didn't follow instructions properly, or his offer to forum members was for a limited time (though this wasn't stated in the thead), then fine, that jusitfies one single charge of $9.99. <br /><br />I'll be disputing these charges. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>The customer is always right (even when they are wrong)...<br /><br />Take it to private emails please.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>This is not the place to settle private disputes... especially at 5:52 in the morning. <br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>$100 is a "nominal" amount? Anybody who truly believes that, is free to let me charge their credit card for that nominal amount, monthly.

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Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p><br />This forum is filled with private disputes....and I haven't flamed Bobby once in this thread. In fact, the brunt of criticism has been towards me.<br /> <br />Currently, the terms and conditions of his site state you have to contact them and request a cancellation directly. Six months later I'm still being charged, and he has no record that he verified the cancellation I requested. Worse, he is refusing to take accountability for his own billing error which he has the ability to verify via PM's on his site, and my usage. Again, I was solicited through this site, and I felt it important to bring this type of billing issue to the forum so as to alert future members that when they do happen to cancel membership, they might continue to get billed even after a confirmation from Bobby. <br /><br /><br />This is the final result from Bobby:<br /><br />Barak,<br /><br />I don't know how you live with your self with the spewing of lies on a<br />public board and from the looks of it you only hurt yourself in the eyes<br />of everyone for being an idiot.<br /><br />I will refund you 5 months of membership dues you need to give me the<br />name and address you would like the payment to be sent.<br /><br />And congratulations you are officially the first person we have banned<br />from the website.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Bobby Binder<br />VintageCardPrices <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Assuming all emails are verifiable, I think Bobby has shown a certain 'two-facedness' in dealing with this disagreement. It always bugs me when people are so polite in public and yet talketh the trash in private.<br />I'll hold out from taking up the services of vintage pricing for a while.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>has the potential of becoming a NYC Dinner Thread.<br /><br />so, now that Frank is coming - when and where is it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>We were suggesting earlier a good Italian restaurant with some top line pizza, maybe something a little easier on the pocketbook. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Hey Barry, you're kidnapping this thread! If you want to talk about your junkie punk rockers, the Kinks, do it on your own time! Can't we get back to bashing each other in private and then in public about the vintagecardprices service? And you're jamming this Italian restaurant stuff down our throats! (Trying hard to turn this into the nascent NYC Dinner Thread III, aka Son of the Son of the NYC Dinner Thread)

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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Actions are louder than words.. Reading Bobby's tone in the e-mail says it all. SHould have been handled through e-mails first with the board being the last measure. I've been guilty in coming forward on the board without given time for people to respond. I currently do not subscribe to any pricing services. I'm glad I collect stuff that SMR does not list and shows up rarely. I have never met Bobby.. But one word of advice... Don't sweat the small stuff as it is a small market where most people know each other..You are really selling a service right? That service cost you lots of money to set up... But in the service business your reputation is everything... Right? Overacheive on customer service... I would be curious to know his user history as to how much he actually used the service???? That might say a lot to.... <br /><br />JC<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jeff- there are so many disparate things going on on this thread that everything you mentioned is applicable, from personal attacks to pepperoni pizza! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Matt E.</b><p>No problems here. I used to be on month to month and I told Bobby I wanted to cancel and pay annually. He told me the exact date in Feb 07 he would end the monthly billing charge. Everything was done properly and am now good to go for 12 mos.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I think Bobby is taking a hit here undeserved. We are seeing one person's account of the emails...not all of them obviously. Bobby is a good guy...and a fair guy. I was paying month by month as well, my monthly subscription ended something like Dec 5...told Bobby I was cancelling and not to renew on that credit card because I was getting a yearly subscription for christmas from a relative....Bobby had no problem cancelling my card...and even gave me the rest of the month of December for free, as a "Merry Christmas".....his reputation as far as I'm concerned with customers is A.O.K.<br /><br /><br />Dave

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>Nice to see that this thread has grown and morphed into another thread which is a typical NET54 trend. <br /><br />I just find it funny that Mr. Barak posts these things that are false 8 minutes after he called me on my cell phone. I agreed to give him back 5 months of membership dues and did not appreciate him posting this in this forum and told him was not needed that this could of been handled in a better way. And then after getting basically free use of a service for 6 months which he did use frequently because I have his log in records to the site is still bad mouthing me in a public forum. Where is the justice and beginning to think that this is coming from another place that I will not mention here.<br /><br />I appreciate all the people that have come forward saying what you have because I really beleive in customer service. Most people are surprised on how fast we respond to everything and if we can't do it right then we at least send them an email telling them so.<br /><br />Anyone who knows me will discover that I am honest and straight forward and bend over backward to help anyone that needs it. I have done everything in my power to make this guy happy and there is just no doing so.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Wow. Bobby, are you really on the computer for 15 to 18 hours a day? I would go mad.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>but you can't leave it there. Share his usage record with the board.

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>Yes I am on the computer working on the site that much almost everyday. Between doing auctions and adding images and new sets the work is endless.<br /><br />I am not going to stoop down to Mr. Barak's level and show you anything we track the last 50 log ins for every member.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>and I don't want this thread to continue any more than you but you did open the door. Its not a matter of stooping down to anyones level its a matter of credibility. If the poster has done as you say and you can apparently prove, lets lay the cards on the table. Leaving it at your "last" leaves too many open questions.

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Posted By: <b>mark</b><p>I'm a member of VCP and very happy with the site, keep up the good work. You are bound to get a few unhappy people, just go with the flow.<br /><br />Your site can only get better.

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Posted By: <b>jonathan davis</b><p>... what's the point ...

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Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p>All I have asked, plain and simple, is for the unauthorized charges made by your company be reversed to my card.<br /><br />"I just find it funny that Mr. Barak posts these things that are false 8 minutes after he called me on my cell phone."<br /><br />Huh? Bobby, I called your business line listed on your website right after I made my last post. I figured it would be best to clear up any miscommunication over the phone, and I actually did offer an apology to you if you thought my intention was merely to insult you, and reiterated I merely wanted a refund.... but this is enough. The benefit of the doubt is fading fast here. You know deep down if you're being ethical or not. You know the truth. I haven't used your site, and you slipped up and forgot to cancel my account as promised on September 3rd.<br /><br />This isn't personal. I haven't made a single personal insult to you, ever. <br /> <br />Your system system requires personal interaction to request a cancellation. When I contacted the sites general business email address to resolve a billing issue at an odd hour, it was mentioned as a personal inconvenience. When I called your business number listed on the website, you answered it, before excusing yourself because you were in the middle of a Birthday Party. Frankly, I'm not interested in this personal interaction. We're discussing an accounting issue here. It's not a personal attack, nor should it be perceived as an infringement or inconvenience. <br /><br /><br />Please do share my sign in log, Bobby. I have suggested it. You already breached the privacy agreement on your website when you posted my full name.<br /> <br />You won't see a log-in between September and Today unless you have fabricated it.<br /><br />In the meantime, why send me a refund by check? Why no just reverse the charge through my credit card on file and be done with me once and for all? <br />

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Barak,<br /><br />Just take the check. I agree with most people here, I would have worked it out with Bobby in personal communique. I'm sure the matter would have been resolved as everything I've heard about Bobby is pretty positive.<br /><br /><br />Bobby,<br /><br />Most everyone knows you here so you're name is very public (that's a good thing for promoting a good business as yours). Barak does have a point, you shouldn't have outed any personal information on the board.<br /><br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />I wish I could make one of your NY get togethers. I'll let you know the next time I'm in NYC with some free time. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>CN</b><p> Bobby I don't subscribe to your service but I was going to next month. Not that it probably will change my mind but since your opened the door I think just to show your credibility you must show Barak's 50 uses of your site so we can put this matter to rest. CN

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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>After reading and following many post like this. I kinda feel sorry for people running a business in our hobby who make post on our board. No matter what.. You will be shot down in public. On the flip side.. The board exposes many problems and thru the "Mob" mentality it gets fixed. I'm sure there are two sides to every story.. But in the end.. Both parties will take a blow to thier rep. If Bobby did not reply on this issue the thread would already be dead... Let do a poll on in general on issues and let the market decide who to deal with and who to stay away from...

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Posted By: <b>CN</b><p> Why do a poll Bobby of vintage card pricing states that he can prove that Barak has used his service approximately 50 times. Just post the proof so we can put this matter to bed. It is all about credibility. CN

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Posted By: <b>Adam J. Baxter</b><p>This whole thing has probably gone way farther then it should have. I say take the issue off the board, work it out and move on. Life is short.<br /><br />BTW, I've seen a few food posts, but no music yet. Barry?

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>as I'm off to bed.<br /><br />Bobby did NOT say that Barak had 50 hits. He said that they can track each members last 50 uses. I don't care if its 5 or 10 or 50. If Barak did in fact use the service after September 3 ANY number of times I want to know it.

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Posted By: <b>arcade</b><p>It's mostly about basic consumer rights, and customer service. <br /><br />All pep rallies aside, let's remember my first post said: <br />"I wish Bobby well with the project, and hope that this was a fluke incident. From what I can gather, Bobby aims to run a professional site, that will become a standard tool in the future" <br /><br />It's absurd to me that this was taken as an attempt at libel, and even more <br />absurd that anyone thinks I'm trying to concoct some grand scam to defame this person and his website for $60 (especially when I supposedly "frequent" said site). That response speaks for itself. <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>arcade</b><p> "If Barak did in fact use the service after September 3 ANY number of times I want to know it."<br /><br />Me too!! Because then our little accounting issue would have grown into one involving identity theft, and/or photoshop! <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I'm not sure publishing the customer's usage information is very prudent.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I disagree. One of the two is lying. Bobby should prove what he is saying, imho. If he doesn't want to prove it then he shouldn't say it. The truth is the evidence.....or whatever ya'll lawyers say.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Let's not act like we are the Judge and Jury here. Those two should part ways and move on. If we did a monthly Poll then I know Bobby would get 1 or 2 negative votes and 8 positives judging fom this thread. I would be curious as to how Bobby's competition would do against him? Same thing with Mastro against REA... It's all in the percentages..

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Hey Leon-<br />I don't disagree with you- I'm just thinking there might be some kind of a privacy right there- not as severe as disclosing personal information- but caution should be exercised.

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Posted By: <b>arcade</b><p>n/m<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>I have not posted because we are waiting for our attorney to tell me if I can. The situation as we see it is we can not post the log in because we refunded 5 months and he paid for 6. If we refunded the entire amount then technically he was never a member.At least in my view but will keep you posted as I get an answer.<br /><br />A lot of messages have been edited now from there original posts. One of them saying that I do nothing for this board or hobby and using my members. If that is the general opinion then this will be my last post. I would like to think that by posting current price information and sales records was helpful to some but I guess that was wrong of me.<br /><br />So like so many others that have businesses in the hobby, grading services, auction houses, etc. and countless other members and collectors. I will not be participating or trying to add anything to this board anymore.

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Posted By: <b>Noel Wrye</b><p>So far the customer has been accused of lying, called an idiot, and accused of trying to defame a business' good name all with zero facts to back up anything. Bobby's corespondences have been terse, mean-spirited, and completely unproductive. Mr. Barak has responded in kind by simply asking that the wrong be corrected. Bobby, your credibility is at stake not because of anything Mr. Barak has said but because of your accusations. Unless there is something i am missing, a case this simple should have been handled by a prompt refund and an apology for the oversite. <br /><br />I would like to know what Bobby's take is on "stooping down to the customers level". If this means correcting a wrong and admitting and apologizing for an overlooked mistake then i am a little confused as to his vision of customer service.<br />

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Posted By: <b>mark</b><p>You have helped many collectors here by posting answers to question they might have. In my opinion, you should allow everyone including non members of this board a 2 week free trial always. When they see that your site is useful they will stay on. If after 2 weeks the person does not feel it is the right choice then they will be allowed to end the membership free and clear.<br /><br />Just an idea...

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p> <br /><br />Come on:<br /><br />He used it or he didn't. Not that tough to prove. I don't think it takes a lawyer for you to do this.<br /><br />Edited to delete what may have been perceived as biased against the poster and his allies. That was not intended. I personally like Bobby and VCP. BUT someone has to come clean here or this will never be resolved.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Bobby, <br /><br />Your service seems like a good one and I have nothing against it or you. In fact, Ive been debating for sometime whether or not I should expand my membership from the SGC promotion to a full vip. Nevertheless, this whole mess could have and should have been dealt with off line (that goes for both parties) and a refund should have been offered simply as a matter of common customer service. Even if the board agrees with your position 2 to 1 or 8 to 1, do you really want to alienate those who disagree - possibly turning them off as potential customers for good? Finally, you state that you are seeking advise from your lawyer before you post the sign in log - I hope that same lawyer isnt the one who advised you to post "arcade's" real name (of course, he should have put his name to his original post per board rules I believe).

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I've had a hard time staying out of this one, but here goes.<br /><br />First I'll say I'm a cardpricer.com fan so I am biased. Ted and his group made Wayne Delia's image file available to collectors far before the site was ready, and I think that deserves some loyalty. They certainly have mine. <br /><br />Ted came on the board just before the site launched and said that, because he is now in a commercial position, he would not post here anymore and he hasn't (to the detriment of the board, in my opinion). That was a classy and probably difficult thing to do. We haven't heard a peep about cardpricer.com since.<br /><br />But from Day One Bobby has used this forum to promote his site at every opportunity. In his launch stage he was on here very frequently talking about the new this or that functionality until someone finally called him on using the board for advertisement. (I think it may have been Jay Behrens - Lordy I miss that boy and wish he'd return to regluar contributing. C'mon Jay - you're still out there, right?)<br /><br />Anyways, since then there have been uncountable instances of this board being used to promote vcp. Someone asks a question about card value? Bobby is there with a clip from his site and a reminder that there is much more similarly valuable info there. Need an image? There's one, with a reminder that vcp has many many images, check them out. Have a question about web site hosting for card collections? Surprise - you can access this for less cost through vcp.<br /><br />I'm not saying this is bad. I don't like it myself, but can't really say it's out of line. But I'll tell you what. It strikes me as very very inconsistent that, after using this board to put vcp into every thread possible, Bobby would now suggest that it is not appropriate for someone else to use this forum to address a negative experience with his site.<br /><br />The board either is or is not apporpriate to discuss vcp and its issues. Can't have it both ways.<br /><br />And I also agree that having made the statement that Barak has logged in and used the service since he requested cancellation, Bobby should show that to be true. It's unfair to just throw it out there and not back it up. <br /><br />Joann Kline

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Posted By: <b>Rich H.</b><p>My 2 cents. As a relatively new board member, I am deeply disturbed by the assault that Barak received. While this matter probably should have been kept offline, the fact is that is wasn't. Escalation has occurred with wild accusations flying either way.<br /><br />My opinion is that if a party (any party) engages in the escalation, responsibility and accountability follow hand in hand. It would be aggregious to not follow through and settle this once and for all.<br /><br />I recently signed up for Bobby's website on a trial basis and I have found it useful. However, as a consumer, I make my purchasing choices based upon a number of factors - most importantly the reputation of the people/person/company behind the product. Unfortunately, this matter has escalated to a point where "settlement" depends on the confirmation of a "few facts." I will probably decide whether to continue to subscribe to the website depending on how this entire dispute pans out.<br /><br />I don't know who suggested that this conflict should be "settled" by a poll - some sort of popularity vote - but that seems way off base here. I completely understand someone trying to defend a colleague or friend, but the dismissal of what is becoming a potential legal debate in favor of a "vote of confidence" has no merit.<br /><br />Rich<br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>As a bystander to this whole thing who doesn't know Edacra or subscribe to Bobby's website I'll throw in my 2 cents for what that's worth.<br /><br />Bobby, give a full refund and move along. No doubt it should have been handled privately, but you have done yourself a huge disservice by your actions in this thread....to out Edacra's real name and then say you'll have to have a lawyer look over the user agreement before you post the login information is BS - pure and simple BS. Edacra has even asked you to post the information....Until you post that login information I will assume you are lying.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Every word.<br />If there is more - as you have hinted at Bobby but completely failed to show, then you have done a very poor job of explaining it. Barak has been entirely polite and professional, it was another poster entirely (who I do not recognize) who spoke poorly of you. Nothing to do with Barak.<br />As Leon said, one person has come on the board and flat out lied, and in doing so painted the other in a very poor light. Serve up the truth, as Barak has to some extent with the record of an attempt to cancel his service, or stop crying about it.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>For the record:<br /><br /><br />Barak called me on the phone yesterday and apoligized for starting this post and did not mean me any harm. I told him that it was not a good idea to do what he did and would of preferred for us to settle this privately. I asked him to send me his address and would be cutting him a check for 5 months of membership dues as is policy of the user agreement. So either way deserving or not he has been issued a refund and as I told him he would never be able to use our service in the future.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>You inferred that Edacra has been using the site the whole time...show us the proof.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Hey Bobby,<br /><br />What about his wife, can she use it? Maybe his children or grandchildren? How far will you hound this man to make him pay for his temerity????<br />Nazi hunters are one thing, but scarlet letters for someone who wants to end their card service and feels they were wrongly charged is RIDICULOUS.<br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I agree Daniel. Bobby is just coming off as mean spirited (and possibly a liar). That can't be good for business.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I'll assume that vintagecardprices is not going to show us any proof to back up their accusations. Not too surprised. I won't be using their service for sure, and won't miss their or any of the other entities that were mentioned like grading companies, big auction houses...etc. Leon stated it pretty clearly....one of these parties flat out lied to board members on this forum...maybe more than one time. <br /><br /> glad to see that a refund is being given though... I own 2 businesses, and had this happened at either one it would have never escalated into a situation like the one this thread is about.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>So let's recap what we have learned so far....<br /><br />1. Bobby called his customer an IDIOT.<br />2. Bobby uses this forum for promotion but does not want it used against him<br />3. Bobby threatens the "Attourney" word on a hundred dollar simple deal.<br />4. Bobby does NOT back up what he says with usage history he claims he can.<br />5. Bobby had an issue using un-authorized images in old thread.<br />6. Bobby Black Balls someone from ever using there service over a simple cheap mis-understand. Classless!!!!! He even had proof of old e-mail. <br /><br />Bobby... Sometimes when you WIN you LOSE ... In this case.. You just around lost. I hope everyone making negative posts against you here does NOT get banned as well. It would not surprize me if you did that.. I seems to be your style "Your way or the Highway"... By the way, do you have any partner companies that are reading all this BS you are saying?<br /><br />The Customer has backed up what he has mentioned. Bobby has an aggressive writing pattern and is quick to lash out. I think we all know the writing is on the wall here. IMO your future does not look good as the competition will run circles around you in service. <br /><br />Rich... A poll in general might have avoided this from happening. Before choosing which service to go with.. Just look at the polls from what other customers think about their services and products. If Bobby has many complaints about accounting or nasty e-mails, then this problem might not have ever happend and another company would have EARNED his business. This poll will make all companies give us "The End User" more satifaction and make them earn our business... <br /><br />Why does REA pay for Network54 dinner? Why does Mastro take us on special outings? <br /><br />On that... Good day JC<br /><br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>Noel Wrye</b><p>Bobby,<br /><br />And what about an apology from you to Mr. Barak for your accusations, name calling, and lies?<br />And now a lawyer? Outstanding! <br />Why is he only being given a refund for five months as opposed to six? What did he do to be banned from your site? <br /><br />If i had to pick a perfect case for how not to handle marketing, customer service, and human relations this would be the lynchpin from where i would start. <br /><br />At this point I fear the damage is already done. Anything short of a full refund, a sincere apology, and an full admission of your inappropriate actions would be insufficient.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I think after Noel's post ....that pretty well sums it up for me. If word of mouth is important to vintagecardpricing then they just shot themselves in the foot big time ! Frankly, I don't care if I'm banned from vintagecardpricng....since it hasn't affected my collecting in the past , I doubt it will in the future. matter of fact, I voluntarily will ban myself...LOL

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Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p>Bobby is correct, I did express an apology over the phone, simply due to the perception here that by bringing this matter to the forum it was a libelous personal attack on this person. Some had suggested that in itself deserved an apology. That is it. I stand by everything I have said here. Bobby and VintageCardPricing have yet to claim accountability for their own billing error, or even apologize. <br /><br />Bobby made two posts today stating he has issued a refund. As of Sunday 2:30pm EST I have not received this refund. Rather then reverse charges to the card he charged me on, as an immediate resolution, he is claiming he will "cut a company check". He has not indicated when such check might be sent. <br /><br />Bobby,<br />Let me be direct: If you truly consulted with your attorney, it just cost you more then a simple refund ever would have. We both know why you can't provide the usage info. Let's not turn a billing dispute into a credit fraud investigation, eh?

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Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p>For full disclosure sake, and because I truly do not appreciate having my own integrity questioned....<br /><br />This forum: "edcara [releases my full name] never contacted me until last night 9:38PM. I never knew of any request or dissatisfaction with our services that we provide and it was new to me."<br /><br />Email to me: "I remember you wanting to cancel then you changed your mind and said you would keep the membership for the time being."<br /><br />By phone: When I denied this occured, and suggested he had me confused with another customer, he told me that my distinctive name was the reason he remembers the above interaction.<br /><br />Here is the email pasted with the header info, and a screen shot of the Private Message I mentioned earlier in the thread.<br /><br /><br />Barak,<br /><br />You would need to send me this email you claim to have and I made this<br />deal on Net 54 in June when we launched not September. I also told them<br />to sign up as a limited member and notify me via email and I would<br />upgrade them for the duration. Never once did I say to use a credit card<br />for a free offer. I will cancel out your account but will not be issuing<br />a refund,<br /><br />I remember you wanting to cancel then you changed your mind and said you<br />would keep the membership for the time being.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Bobby<br /><br /><br />Return-Path: &lt;admin@vintagecardprices.com&gt;<br />Received: from rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.180.66]) by air-yh02.mail.aol.com (v114_r3.2) with ESMTP id MAILINYH23-2b045e05f87284; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:54:03 -0500<br />Received: from as.vintagecardprice.com (vintagecardprice.com [216.70.72.168]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v114_r3.2) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYH28-2b045e05f87284; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:53:45 -0500<br />Received: (qmail 13607 invoked from network); 24 Feb 2007 07:53:42 -0800<br />Received: from pool-71-106-34-118.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net (HELO ?192.168.1.65?) (71.106.34.118)<br /> by vintagecardprice.com with SMTP; 24 Feb 2007 07:53:42 -0800<br />Message-ID: &lt;45E05F65.8030201@vintagecardprices.com&gt;< br />Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 07:53:09 -0800<br />From: Robert Binder &lt;admin@vintagecardprices.com&gt;<br />User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207)<br />MIME-Version: 1.0<br />To: ArcadeAdct@aol.com<br />Subject: Re: billing at VCP<br />References: &lt;d63.301a7e5.3311686b@aol.com&gt;<br />In-Reply-To: &lt;d63.301a7e5.3311686b@aol.com&gt;<br />Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br />Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<br />X-AOL-IP: 216.70.72.168<br />X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:471785421:6710886<br />X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0<br /><br />[IMG]<img src="http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2981/picture4copygh3.jpg">[/IMG]<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>That pretty much seals the deal....Give a FULL Refund Bobby and apologize. It's probably too late now though as you have probably lost some business over this.

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>Since Mr. Barak stated "Please do share my sign in log, Bobby. I have suggested it." from a previous post here is the log in info:<br /><br />IP Address Date Time<br />172.191.75.136 2/24/07 11:28PM<br />172.191.75.136 2/24/07 10:07PM<br />172.191.75.136 2/24/07 11:28AM<br />172.191.75.136 2/23/07 07:38PM<br />172.191.75.136 2/21/07 04:56PM<br />172.191.75.136 2/18/07 06:12PM<br />172.191.75.136 2/16/07 12:38PM<br />172.191.75.136 2/15/07 04:24PM<br />172.191.75.136 2/14/07 07:31AM<br />172.191.75.136 2/09/07 12:19AM<br />172.191.75.136 2/08/07 09:54PM<br />172.191.75.136 2/07/07 08:22PM<br />172.191.75.136 2/01/07 03:48PM<br />172.191.75.136 1/30/07 06:53AM<br />172.191.75.136 1/27/07 10:07PM<br />172.191.75.136 1/26/07 08:57PM<br /><br />These are his last 15 log ins according to our site records. Again I have given him a refund and he has continued to post. He signed up originally and canceled is correct and in correspndence he said he would keep the membership and give it some time. I have never heard back from him again until last night<br /><br />Why is it I would pick him to try and screw out of a measly $50.00 and since we have started have had a total of 24 members cancel service. With Almost 2000 members and about 400 paying I am not trying to cheat anyone. There are a few members on this board that I am sure have canceled with us and there was no troubles at all.<br /><br />And I am sure Leon can verufy that this is his IP address from his side.

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>OK Barak, you're up to bat. How about an explantion? <br /><br />And, you know, I really don't want to hear some BS that VCP has dummied up these records.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Your able to look a the last few logs ins I understand, but are you able to track where on the site people have been? Ex. Such as if someone has been through the VIP services or just been on the site in general?<br /><br />Dave