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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Which of these would you keep?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1172087009.JPG"> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1172087124.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>bigfish</b><p>I would keep the Ty Cobb back all day long. The Uzit 6 is nice but you can find another Uzit. You will have trouble finding another Cobb back. Just my 2 cents

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>hal, tough call....and a nice decision to have <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />i would keep the cobb/cobb.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Bobby Binder</b><p>I would keep the Ty Cobb back because there is only one card with that back. The UZIT back is much easier to find and purchase fi you are a back collector.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>the red.

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Posted By: <b>Jason Carota</b><p>Definitely the Cobb/Cobb.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Hal,<br /><br />I'm generous, keep the Ty Cobb back, when are you sending the Uzit back to me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>cobb squared...no contest.<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>cobb / cobb back.

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Ditto<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Cobb back every time IMO. <br /><br /><br />Also a question for whoever can answer...I just didn't want to post a whole thread for one dumb question...<br /><br />On Hal's Cobb with the Uzit back, is the PSA logo on the back the original looking label for PSA's? In other words is that one of the first graded by PSA? Just curious..I have one single card with the same back...and unfortunately I'm talking about the label back..not the card's back!

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Looking at it solely from a financial standpoint isn't the Cobb back worth maybe 10 times the Uzit? Even without the financials of it I would keep the Cobb/Cobb.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Well...<br /><br />you know how sometimes you can talk yourself into something that you KNOW is crazy?<br /><br />I think I had talked myself into thinking that the Uzit had the same "keeper" qualities as the Cobb/Cobb.<br /><br />Thanks for the "wake up call" slapping me back into reality!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Steve M.:<br /><br />A Cobb/Uzit in SGC 40 (PSA 3 equivalent) sold in the REA auction last year for $10,000 plus juice.<br /><br />Mine is much higher graded and is the highest-graded Cobb/Uzit... so you never know what some "big ego" guy might pay if he wants only the "best" card, etc.<br /><br />In all honesty... because my Cobb/Cobb is NOT the "best known" example... I truly don't know which card would sell for the most money.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Hal,<br /><br />You've got a dilemma, but the way I would look at it is which card are you likely to be able to repurchase at some later date. The Cobb/Cobb you may never be able to buy again. It's a keeper.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Hal - the REA Uzit was an SGC 40.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hal- that's a good point. I too was going to say keep the Cobb with Cobb back, but that one could be replaced down the road. If the Cobb with Uzit is the finest known, you are not likely to replace it. So I think the real question is: if you let either one go, will you regret it and want to buy it back?

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Hal,<br /><br />Both are great cards. I would keep the cobb/cobb - despite a lower grade, I think you would have a much tougher time replacing it in any condition down the road and, it happens to look great for the condition its in.

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Sell your car... get a vespa and keep them both. It's the only logical solution.

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Posted By: <b>jP</b><p>Well since i dont own any Cobb T206 i would love to have them both. From what i have been learning and reading on the VBC looks like the Cobb back is the more scarce of the 2 but i guess if i had to pick 1 of those i would love to have the UZIT Cobb (im a sucker for nrmt graded cards)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/ball.jpg"><br /><br />my collection: <a href="http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/</a</a>>

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Hal- you own both? congrats!<br /><br />cobb/cobb is a card that is known to be one of the most important in the hobby...no brainer.<br /><br />BUT, if you decide the sell EITHER card, i would be interested in your asking prices. <br /><br />p.s. dave- that is the first generation PSA back (although it is a second generation front- the first gen front had old school computer type-face)...<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anthony</b><p>Cobb/Cobb, no doubt.<br /><br />Is the Uzit the one that was discussed a lot on the FullCount board that BMW had, or was that another one?<br /><br /> Added to say- it was discussed only because of rarity and price, not any other reason.

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Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>I'd keep the Cobb/Cobb if not only for its legendary status.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Not even a question in my mind. Condition rarity does not match actual rarity for me. I'd rather have a low grade card that has only a handful of known specimens than a high grade card with more known cards. <br /><br />But why not keep both and tell her to suck eggs? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>is that the cobb/uzit that BMW cards was trying to sell for the longest time?

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>So I'm going to go with the card I would enjoy looking at more.<br /><br />That Cobb/Cobb is butt ugly as far as my eyes can tell, and thats with all the squinting I have to do to make it out through its lack of register.<br />Only way I would ever like to have it displayed is back showing, and sure enough that would be special...<br />But the bat off is gorgeous (even if it's only really a '5' <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>), front and back. I could look at that card all day long <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br />So I go with the bat off, sell the cobb/cobb, and buy myself the nicest t206 plank I can afford with the proceeds!<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Cobb/Cobb.....although I do agree I think I like the overall way the Uzit looks more. Not even a question as to which one I would keep though....I always take rarity over most other factors....

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Consider this very recent sale......a MAGIE that had two diagonal corner "big bites" out<br /> of it....that went for 8K. Obviously, it was graded Authentic.<br /><br />In this crazy environment the Ty Cobb back wins every time.<br /><br />HAL....recall, Lifson's recent UZIT find and there will be more.<br /><br />However, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't there only 12 (or so) Red Cobb/Ty Cobb<br /> cards that have been found ?<br /><br />TED Z

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Keep the Uzit Cobb. As far as I know, there are only 4 known and yours is the highest graded. There are about a dozen of the Ty Cobb brand tobacco Cobbs. I think the Cobb/Cobb is an easier card to acquire in that it appears more often in major auctions and comes up for private sale more frequently (we were just offered one two weeks ago). I also think it is somewhat over-rated as there are legitimate reasons to believe it was never intended to be part of the T206 Series. This might limit its appeal among future generations of T206 set (& variation) collectors.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I definitely agree that the Cobb/Cobb shouldn't be classified as a T206. It should be a T213-4, or some derivitive of a Coupon. You make a good point on the scarcity of the combination of the Cobb/Uzit but the Uzit back, in and of itself, is only scarce and not rare. The Cobb/Cobb is rare, imho. Thanks for chiming in. I have always thought you and your brother are some of the most knowledgable folks in the hobby. (now you can buy me a soda at the National <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>)....regards

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Some good points. I think it all comes down to the collecting strategy of each hobbyist. For those who are searching for rare backs, the Ty Cobb brand is obviously tougher. But for Ty Cobb collectors, the Uzit is much more difficult to obtain. For me, condition would also be a factor. With only a few exceptions, I tend to assign greater weight to "condition scarcity" than "general scarcity" but that's only because I've been drinking too much of the kool aid.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hal- I think this thread has served to make your decision even more difficult. I say keep them both, and if you have to sell something, find something else. These can't be the two worst cards in your collection. Sell some vending cases or rack packs...

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I am trying to "pare down" to owning only ONE card of every "big time" HOF.<br /><br />Thus, I will be selling one of these at some point.<br /><br />I am no longer worried about owning cards of some of the lower end HOF.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>sell your stash of 1989 Fleer Billy Ripken FF cards and varieties.....<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I think it is a no-brainer. Keep the Cobb/Cobb back. It is one of the legendary cards in the hobby.<br /><br />Leon,<br /><br />A little shallack does not make it a Coupon (T213). If anything, it perhaps should be a T206-1. A promotional card inserted with tobacco by ATC between 1909-1911 is T206 according to the American Card Catalogue. <br /><br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Hal- email sent.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Michael = vulture <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> (we all are it's ok)<br /><br />JimB- C'mon now ..Cobb/Cobb....I would go for it being a whole seperate set more than it being a T206. But this is all relative. They are still great cards and someday I hope to have one....

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>the one with Ty Cobb on it...<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I have already told several nice people that any sale will be a public auction, but thanks for asking.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>hey Leon, at least i didn't break the board rules...i emailed him <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Sorry Hal!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I sent my e-mail before I read your statement above.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Even if the Uzit was graded a psa 8 id still be inclined to take the cobb with cobb back. Even if the Uzit would see for more money, the mystique that surrounds the cobb w/cobb back and it being the only card with that back ever produced, well thats something quite special and unique to own. Uzit backs are much much more common, even if A high grade cobb uzit would be a 1 of 1 due to its high grade, there are so many more Uzit then Cobb backs, and plus the red portrait is a true classic

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>EcardCollector,<br /><br />A Uzit Cobb in a PSA 8 would be unprecedented and would properly be classified as one of the hobby's foremost scarcities. The proceeds from the sale of such a card could be used to purchase half a dozen Ty Cobb brand Cobbs.

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>mw...are you high?<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>PSA 8 Uzit Cobb = Cobb back x 6 ?<br /><br />Wow. I don't think many would agree with this statement.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Pete,<br /><br />Most of the Ty Cobb brand Cobbs are in lesser grade and have recently been selling in the $25K to $30K range. A PSA 8 Uzit Cobb would <b><i>start</i></b> in the $100k range and might even sell for close to $200K...in my estimation at least. At any rate, who is to say since we're only dealing in hypotheticals.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />You are correct but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm comparing the potential value of a PSA 8 Uzit Cobb to the most common condition Ty Cobb brand Cobb.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think MW is pretty close. The average Cobb/Cobb is a little lower conditioned and they generally go for 25k-35k.....so 6x that would be pretty close on that Uzit....maybe. It certainly wouldn't be outrageous considering a nice HOF'er in an 8 holder gos for 7k-10k or more. I could see 150k to 200k for the hypothetical Cobb/Uzit in an 8 holder. I have seen much crazier stuff lately, relatively speaking. Just my opinion...but who knows....

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>MW - you could very well be right.

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>Hal,<br />Only if I had your problem <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I would still keep the Cobb/Cobb back even if he has goofy blue eyes.<br /><br />Some day!<br />Sean BH

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>i concede...these times are crazy! Hal...if you only keep one card of each prominent hof'er...you've got a lot of cards to sell.<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>MW,<br />Having bought one Cobb back and sold a different one in the past two weeks, I can tell you for certain that they go for a lot more than that. Several years ago an SGC 30 went for 59k. With the ever-rising prices of true hobby classic rarities like that, who knows what it would bring at auction today.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>totally unfair question...but if this is an offer to sell to me, i would rather have the ty cobb back...<br /><br />(like i can afford either one)<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Hal, I don't think it's even a close call on this one. You have to keep the Cobb/Cobb. That's a card you may spend the rest of your life trying to find again while the Cobb Uzit can be found -- but perhaps not at that grade again.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I would keep the Ty Cobb Back, much more rare!

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>If yo own both, I would sell the Ty Cobb back to Dan Mckee for less than you paid for it.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Both will be murder to replace...DONT SELL EITHER! That's an order, from a friend!

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Thanks again for your opinions!

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>MW--- c'mon now, let's not get crazy...let's break it down very simply here...<br /><br />cobb/cobb 2= maybe $35K<br />cobb/uzit 6= maybe $35K<br /><br />cobb/uzit 8= maybe $60-70K...the back multiplier, especially with a cobb, is less than a common.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>MVSNYC,<br /><br />Assuming your figures are correct for a PSA 6 Uzit Cobb, I can't think of any T206s (and not very many other vintage cards) for which a PSA 8 is only worth double the price of a PSA 6. The multiplier (from a PSA 6 to a PSA 8) is much larger than that for both commons and Hall of Famers.

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>First off MW I was saying IF money be damned... id still go with the Cobb back just to make a point on how much i enjoy the card, but i still dont think a psa 8 would sell for your estimation. Your talking T206 Wagner money there, and thats considerable.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>i am not sure of the values, (no one really is, until they hit the auction block) i was taking a shot in the dark...anyone else wanna take a stab at it? maybe the UZIT 6 would be a bit less then my estimate (35K) and the UZIT 8 would be a bit more than my estimate (60-70K)?<br /><br />but i certainly do not think we are talking six figures for the 8, but that's just my opinion. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>hal- was this the cobb/uzit that BMW cards once owned? <br /><br />edited to say: i did some research and answered my own question...

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>&lt;&lt; maybe the UZIT 6 would be a bit less then my estimate (35K) and the UZIT 8 would be a bit more than my estimate (60-70K)? &gt;&gt;<br /><br />Based on T206 sales over the past two years, the multiplier for a two grade increase (PSA 6 to PSA 8) is generally 8 to 10 times. This is true for both "commons" and Hall of Famers. The notable exception would be low-population commons or variations which have a multiplier of 10 to 20 times.<br /><br />These figures can be verified by making a cursory examination of the T206 listings on vintagecardsprices.com.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>MW- i respectfully disagree...and i don't need to check out any websites, i have a very good "gut" feeling for prices with my experience. <br /><br />your "8-10" times factor might be true for commons, but does not hold water with someone like Ty Cobb:<br /><br />(excluding the green cobb) recent cobb PSA 6 sales on eBay range in the $3K-4K neighborhood...PSA 8's range from $15K-20K...(Goodwin just sold a cobb red PSA 8 for $13,400)<br /><br />so more like a 4-5 times factor.<br /><br />BUT, i just don't see a Cobb UZIT 8 going for six figures...people who collect rare backs, IMO, usually don't want cobb on the front...and vice versa.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Ty Cobb Bat Off<br /><br />PSA 6 - $4170<br />PSA 8 - $17985<br /><br />multiplier: 4.3x<br /><br />Ty Cobb Bat On<br /><br />PSA 6 - $4060<br />PSA 8 - $23633<br /><br />multiplier: 5.8x<br /><br />Ty Cobb Red Port<br /><br />PSA 6 - $3550<br />PSA 8 - $13397<br /><br />multiplier: 3.8x<br /><br />Ty Cobb Green Port<br /><br />no psa 8 data available.<br /><br />Edited to say: <br /><br />Looks like a 4-5x multiplier is about right. <br /><br />In addition, I would think that the multiplier with a rare back is less as the total dollar amount increases.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>&lt;&lt; BUT, i just don't see a Cobb UZIT 8 going for six figures... &gt;&gt;<br /><br />I do because I'd pay <b><i>at least</i></b> that amount for one. And I know other collectors/dealers who would too.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>&lt;&lt; In addition, I would think that the multiplier with a rare back is less as the total dollar amount increases. &gt;&gt;<br /><br />For high grades (PSA 8 & 9) on one-of-a-kind scarcities in the T206 series, I would argue that it's greater.<br /><br />Edited to add: it looks like you did some "mixing and matching" for your price analysis where some of your PSA 6 prices came from tougher backs.

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>"it looks like you did some "mixing and matching" for your price analysis where some of your PSA 6 prices came from tougher backs."<br /><br />Actually, no. Everything is from the "common back" listings.

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>i think there'd be only one way to solve this debate...they must both be sold. Sorry Hal...you can't keep either...auction them both for the sake of our curiosity.<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />You are correct, they are but a "Sovereign" Ty Cobb would generally sell for more than a Piedmont or Sweet Caporal, all other factors being equal.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>&lt;"I do because I'd pay at least that amount for one. And I know other collectors/dealers who would too."&gt;<br />well, i guess i stand corrected then...<br /><br />but for my money, if i was spending 100,000+ on one card i could think of many others i would want instead (and this is coming from a hard-core T206 back collector).

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>MVSNYC,<br /><br />I'd have to think long and hard about that. At a wholesale level of only $100,000, I'd be a very eager buyer on a PSA 8 Uzit Cobb. And even if I were to compare it to some of the tougher T206 variations in the set (Plank and Wagner excluded), I think I would still choose the Uzit Cobb. <br /><br />I think a comparison would also depend on the relative price levels -- i.e., if I were buying the Uzit Cobb at $100,000 and paying retail for the other cards (T206 variations or other), it would be an easy decision. However, if I were paying wholesale prices for the other cards, it would be a more difficult decision.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>MW- i hear what you are saying, for that money i would just prefer another card, but hey, to each his own...

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>You guys be SURE to let me know if anyone wants to pay $100,000+ for a PSA 6 version of the card!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Personally, I value my PSA 6 at $50k... but I realize that I am biased.

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Posted By: <b>RC McKenzie</b><p>I'm not convinced that a baseball card is similar to an ounce of gold. i.e. a baseball card is not a serious commodity. I could see an ounce of gold losing 50% of its value in my lifetime. I could see baseball cards losing 99% of their value in my lifetime. Baseball cards are very risky investments. For anyone to spend 100k dollars on a baseball card they'd have to believe that the card could be worth $100 overnight.

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>I also agree with the sentiment that many collectors would just prefer their Uzit or Drum backs with normal players and not Cobb or the like. When were talking 100,000 dollars though i would only want to purchase a card with a proven track record at auction or something very unique, not just unique due to its high grade, something that just doesnt exist but in very low numbers PF FR or whatever, period.

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Dylan- well said.<br /><br />RC- baseball cards ARE serious commodities to those who collect cards.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>It is if you want it to be. A commodity is only something that a sufficient # of people have decided they would like to own for it to be traded. There is no inherent value in gold, for example,and how much bacon can you really eat before it spoils? Cards have value because enough people have decided that they have value to make a market of them. And how long does the market have to run before it is "serious"? 25 years? 30 years? Because if you had purchased all your HOFer OJ's and E's and so on 35 years ago, you would be sitting on a fortune today.

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Posted By: <b>Ed</b><p>Here is a guy who made a ton of money off of a tobacco lawsuit as a lawyer and then has the nerve to continue to make money and decisions based on tobacco, except this time it is tobacco cards. Hal, is that your little joke on society? Must be.<br /><br />Sell them both and give some of the money to the tobacco users and their families that your lawfirm jilted money out of.