|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Some threads over the weekend suggested that a few cards, such as the T207 Lowdermilk and T3's with Turkey Red ad backs, are not really as rare as their reputations. Two cards which I feel are overrated are:<br /><br />1) T205 Hoblitzell No Stats- considering it is touted as the rarest T205 and always seems to sell for five figures, doesn't it seem like there is one in nearly every auction?<br /><br />2) Same goes for the 1933 Goudey Nap Lajoie. For a card touted as one of the hobby's major rarities, it wouldn't surprise me if at least 8-10 are sold every year.<br /><br />With the hobby becoming more sophisticated, and with more information being gathered every day, what other so-called rarities do you think should be knocked down a peg? Likewise, which lesser known ones deserve more attention?
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Underrated:E270's in general
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>barry...if you're going to include the hoblitzel and the lajoie...why not add the o'hara and demmit t206's to the list...they seem to show up as frequently or more than the hoblitzell no stats. I still consider the lajoie a hobby rarity.<br /><br />pete in st thomas
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Peter- you can add anything you want to the list, as this is just a survey.<br /><br />Yes, the 1933 Lajoie is a rarity in relation to other Goudeys produced in 1933 and 1934; but as rarities go, doesn't it seem like there is one, and at times even two, in nearly ever major auction? So my question is: is it overrated?<br /><br />And for every Hoblitzell no stats for sale, how many T208 low grade commons are there? Zero.<br /><br />For that matter a T207 Lowdermilk is a very tough card, but just look how often it shows up at auction. I'm just referring to those that have for a generation or more been considered among the hobby's elite cards, but seem to show up too often to truly be deemed rarities.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>With the advent of the Internet, and especially Ebay, we have to modify our "old school" thinking<br />as to what is "rare". Everything we once considered "rare" is coming out of the woodwork in this<br />new environment. <br /><br />Except these 2 cards, that instantly flash in my mind as really rare.....<br /><br />T206 Joe Doyle (NAT'L)<br /><br />Red Cobb with Ty Cobb back<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I find George C. Millers to be overrated, in general.<br /><br />I find 1921 E121 Herpolsheimers to be underrated. I am also having a bear of a time finding any more E121 Henry Johnson Confectioners.<br /><br />In terms of mainstream issues, I feel that 1941 Goudeys and Tattoo Orbits are underrated - much tougher to find that it seems like they should be.<br /><br />-Al
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Keith O'Leary</b><p><P>I agree with Al on the 1921 Herpolsheimers. All 1 of 1 cards.</P><P> </P>
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Jay</b><p>Keith--I agree. Herpolsheimer cards are very undervalued, especially the stars.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>bruce Dorskind</b><p><br /><br />We disagree with the comment that Geoge C Miller cards are overrated with regard to<br />their rarity.<br /><br />Whilst there may be a reasonable number of Millers that have not been graded,<br />especially cancelled cards, our experience has been that the Milers are among<br />the rarest of all 1930's gum cards...and very difficult to find.<br /><br />Miller cards in reasonable condition (6 and above) are few and far between.<br /><br />The mos recent PSA Population Report indicates that a mere 25 examples<br />18-6's, 6- "7s" and a single PSA 8 card have met these standards.<br />That total represents less than 10% of total number of cards graded by PSA (273).<br /><br />SGC's figures are even more discourgaging for the discerning collector. There is<br />not a single example above 60 which has been graded by SGC. In total 137<br />examples have been graded by SGC.<br /><br />To the best our knowledge only three Miller wrappers survive today. Miller had<br />different wrappers for the American League and National League.<br /><br />There are a number of explanations as to why George C Miller cards are so rare.<br />The candy sold for 5 cents rather than a penny and the distribution of the set<br />was limited to the East Coast.<br /><br />Trust this information will be helpful<br /><br /><br />Best,<br /><br /><br />Bruce Dorskind<br />America's Toughest Want List
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Bruce:<br /><br />I argree with you guys about higher-grade GCMs being scarce, but given the nature of the cards, that makes sense. The cards were usually cancelled by chopping off a slice of the card, or poking holes through them, rendering it very difficult to find an example graded above a 6. <br /><br />In my post, I was not referring to condition scarcity, but to scarcity in general. However, if I were to choose the toughest 1930s issue to find in high grade, it still would not be the GCMs. Instead I would choose a set like the 1933 R308 Tattoo Orbits. These are nearly impossible to find in EX condition, largely because A) there haven't been a ton graded, and B) they were "self-developing" cards that required the owner to spit on them - or otherwise wet them - in order to produce the photo. Doing so generally produced a stain that would make it nearly impossible to find a high-grade card today.<br /><br />But the cards themselves aren't as scarce as they're cracked up to be. Same with GCMs, in my opinion.<br /><br />For a set that is supposed to be super scarce, it seems to me that there are a couple GCMs in every major auction and a few on eBay every couple of weeks. There are four listed in eBay stores right now.<br /><br />Contrast that with R308 Butter Creams, Uncle Jacks Candys, Demaree Die Cuts, or even high-grade Diamond Star high #s. All of those seem tougher to me than the GCMs, but the GCMs are usually considered the most scarce 1930s issue. I just don't buy it.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>I think I'll keep my R308 in the plastic from now on. And I'd agree that R308's are damn near impossible to find in high grade. I'd love to see a PSA 6 on one of those. I imagine the image on a PSA 6 one would be outstanding. <br /><br />--Chad
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Nothing like the thought of a little 70-year-old DNA on your cards to wreck your lunch, eh?<br /><br />-Al
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Jerry</b><p>How about Lections without bullet holes.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Darren</b><p>Good thread. I agree with the t205's and t206's noted thus far. I'd add the t206 George Brown Washington variation to the list. There also seems to more than expected 1933 tatoo orbit blaeholders and hadley's out there.<br /><br />As for as "new thought" rarities--Coupon type 1 and type 3's have got to be up there. 1926 Sports Co. of America all other than Ruth are rarely available. I have yet to see a Cobb offered in any grade. The Ruth from this set with 1927 Copyright of which two are currently known has to go on the list as well.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Overrated:<br />Goudey Lajoie<br />T206 Cobb green. Expensive and popular, yes, but easy to find. <br />T207 Lowdermilk<br /><br />Underrated: <br />W553: Very tough to find, esp. if you want a particular player.<br />Tattoo Orbit: ditto.<br /><br />I think the GCM cards are rated about right, especially if you are talking about an uncancelled card. It took me quite a while to find an uncancelled O'Doul. <br /><br /><br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>GC Millers are tough uncancelled. When speaking of rare, are we speaking of a particular card or of a condition of a card? I think condition should not matter when saying a rare card. A T206 Elberfeld Fielding is common as dirt but I imagine that card graded a 9 is rare? A few overrated rarities to me are the Tattoo Orbit Andrews and Blaeholder short prints that old schoolers considered tough. Yes Lowdermilk is way overrated it seems. With the Lajoie, I bet a lot of the examples you keep seeing are recycled through auction houses hence it is not as plentiful as you may think. Dan.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dan- I agree that many of the Lajoies are recycled, and I wonder why they aren't held longer? There are collectors who after they pick up a rarity will keep it forever. But the Lajoie seems to not have a very long shelf life with collectors.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Adam,<br />I agree that in the scheme of things the green T206 Cobb is not that hard to find, but I do think it is significantly tougher than any of the other T206 Cobbs. Based on my unscientific observation, I would guess that I have seen at least twice as many red T206 Cobbs than green. The batting poses stand somewhere in the middle.<br />JimB
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>The one that sold in Sothebys a few years back in a holder hasn't been recycled and has a nice home in my Goudey set. It has left the plastic tomb and found its way into the proper position in the 9 pocket sheet.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I think the green cobb is harder to find because it is more 'likeable' -- and not necessarily because there are fewer of them.<br /><br />more likeable = less turnover = shows up less often.<br /><br />just a guess.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dan, Barry,<br /><br />It seems to me that the reason you bid on a '33 Goudey Lajoie has a lot to do with whether you keep it. Dan is a serious collector and even broke his Lajoie out of a slab to insert into his collection. To an investor this would be extremely foolish. <br /><br />I suspect the reason why many of the '33 Goudey Lajoies go on the auction block so often is that they are in the hands of investors.<br />Either the investor thinks he can make a profit or he wants to cut his losses.<br /><br />For card sets that I struggled to complete I have little or no desire to sell.<br /><br />Peter
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>someone mentioned demmitt & o'hara? i think if anything, they are UNDER-RATED. they are nearly impossible to find in mid-high grade, advanced collectors know truly how tuff they are to find...scot reader actually places them ahead of Magie for tuffness.<br /><br />yes, you do see them often, but alot of them are re-circulated.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Grades aside, Magie is much tougher than Demmit and O'Hara.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>hi dan, i was surprised too, but maybe Scot could elaborate on his findings.<br /><br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I've handled several Planks but hardly any Magies. Are the Magies tougher?
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You are absolutely correct.....Barry's original question on "RARITY" should be<br />independent of the grading factor.<br />A T206 Doyle, Magie, Plank or Wagner are sought after irregardless of condition.<br /><br />And indeed, a Magie is an order of magnitude tougher to find then Demmitt or O'Hara.<br />However, D & O are very tough to find in Ex (or better) since they exist only as Polar<br /> Bears.....and, invariably have chewing tobacco stains on them.<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I think that your thinking about this all wrong. T206 and T205 are collected in abundance. Many collect them as a set. Ofcourse any T208 or E222 or anyother ultra rarity will appear undervalued in comparison to the "rarities" from t205 or T207(or the lajoie Goudey card). But these are mainstream sets collected by so many, and therefore were back to supply and demand. Ofcourse theres more Hoblitzel no stats then the price should dictate, but theres a lot of t205 collectors. In a matter of speaking, nothing is overvalued or undervalued, its value is what is assigned to it by the buyers as a whole. You cant just factor rarity, theres other things at play here. Namely, how many collectors are interested in said card.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Marty</b><p>The last Mastro auction had a PSA 4 Lajoie in it. I bought the card from the person who had it graded, I sold it to another dealer who sold it to a collector. This took about 3 years total time. I think that there are many collectors that want to say that they have owned a card, but the price of keeping it is pretty high, so they sell and move on. They may also see the the cards have sold for much higher than what they paid. This card in a 4 has sold in the mid 20's in the past year or so. The last one sold for about 15K pluse juice.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Marty,<br /><br />I guess I'm just not that kind of collector. It really doesn't make any difference to me if I owned it at one time. The only cards that mean much to me are the ones I currently own. <br /><br />Actually, I would be slightly depressed if I had a '33 Goudey Lajoie and then sold it. To me, it would be a sense of a loss instead of giving me bragging rights. The only exception would be if I took the money and bought a T-206 Wagner...then I would brag all day and night. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>No one has bashed the e90-1 Mitchell yet. I have seen multiple copies of the "Honus Wagner of Caramel Cards" offered for sale over the past decade, but very few Walsh or McLean cards.<br /><br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Funny, there are some cards I wouldn't want to own for more than a couple of days......but oh for one or two sleepless nights with a 14' Baltimore Ruth. After that, the guilt associated with having so much money tied up in a card when there are kids educations to be paid for, mortgages to service, and bathrooms to remodel (imagine the sickening feeling if it were to expire in flames or flood) would leave me too angst ridden to go about daily life. <br />Not to mention there's a certain full sized snooker table I've always wanted, and the accompanying billiards room to house it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br />Under-rated:<br />1. Uncommon sets - All Texas Tommys<br />2. Common sets - 1914 Cracker Jacks<br /><br />Over-rated: <br />1. All t206 "Tough" cards<br />2. Sorry Leon, Back types - I really think the market for these will be very thin going forward, especially if the average collector becomes less of an intense hobbyist and more a casual enjoyer of the hobby. I mean, you have to be a pretty intense collector for a back designation of "Herpolsheimer" to decide if you like a card or not...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Richard,<br /><br />Beckett's considers the e90-1 Mitchell a rarity, I have doubts myself since I do see them popping up. How about the 1954 Bowman Ted Williams, I see those around pretty often also. Is the Ted Williams a rarity.<br /><br />Peter
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>An underrated rarity is the E97 Briggs Keeler. <br />All D311s are underrated as rarities.<br />In the T207 set Saier is overrated.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The E90-1 Mitchell is a perfect example. While nobody questions it is scarce, it is not the toughest card in the E90-1 set. It lives on its reputation.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Would you say the same thing is true for the '54 Bowman Ted Williams, it goes by it's reputation but is not a true rarity.<br /><br />Peter
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>In the 1970's and early '80s both these cards were considered very rare, and that drove up their prices, as<br /> more collectors were entering a very growing BB card hobby. The old adage, "the law of supply vs demand",<br /> certainly ruled the day.<br /><br />During the early to mid-'90s these card's prices leveled off. Then the combination of Ebay and the Grading<br /> phenomena in the mid-to-late '90s till now have driven these two card's prices high again.<br /><br />And, no they are not as rare as they are claimed to be, relative to the real rarities that have been discussed<br />so far in this thread.<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I interpreted the question as one of rarity of existence (which is my main concern), not condition rarity. I do not believe that they are equivalents because they attract different people. Some cards are plain old rarities; you are lucky to find them. Other cards are common but hardly ever found in really nice shape. I prefer to acknowledge both in my boxing guide by noting which sets are rare and which cards are condition rarities from common sets. <br /><br />Personally, I will always take a rare card over a high grade common card.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Peter- the 1954 Bowman Williams is another card that hasn't proven to be as rare as once thought. I'm pretty sure I remember Larry Fritsch telling the story that as a kid in 1954, he bought a pack of Bowmans and all five cards were Williams! <br /><br />Does anybody else remember hearing that? Ted would know if I am right or just imagining it.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>You willll appreciate this more than most, but in 30+ yrs of collecting, I have actually seen, or held,<br /> only 2 - 1948 LEAF Rocky Graziano (#50) cards. Regarding all post-WWII sportscards, this "Rocky"<br />must be the rarest of them all. <br /><br />I wrote an article about this card back in 1982 and most in the sports collecting hobby were stunned,<br />as very, very few knew of its existence.<br /><br />You are the "boxingcardman" guru on this Forum.....how many of these Graziano cards have you seen ?<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>concerning the question about mr. o'hara & mr. demmitt...becasue of only being printed with Polar Bear backs, they are tuff to find in high grade, this is true, but the mere fact that they were ONLY printed with one brand makes them tuff cards to find regardless...coupled with the fact that their St.L team designations were short printed...<br /><br />but this is not new news, just reinforcing what we already know...bottom line is, they're tuff.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>The Black & White E97's are usually thought of as rare, but they come up in nearly every auction and are on ebay fairly regularly. I don't know about cards within the set, but you see a lot more E97 BW's than, say, E107 etc.<br /><br />Joann
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>barry you are correct about the fritsch story......but not sure if it was 5 or 3 in the same pack?
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>steve</b><p>The S74 silks in high grade HOF'ers are way tough - both colored and with backing varieties.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Joann- For some reason the b&w e97s seem to never stay very long in one place. I think collectors may be buying them to flip them as I seem to see the same ones selling over the year. I think they are pretty scarce though as I have only ever seen one Keeler, one Kelly, etc. I own the Carrigan and one other (player escapes me now) and I have only ever seen one other Carrigan and one other of the other player. <br />I saw where a near set of them was offered in an auction a while back, but they don't come up too often on ebay with the exception of the Austin which the seller had on ebay 5 different times trying to sell it (not sure if reserve was ever hit). That one was once owned by a couple of board members and was reportedly skinned so that cooled a little of the excitement over the card.<br />Bob
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ted is right about the Graziano Leaf. I collect the set and not only have I never even seen one but not a single registry set even has one included. Can that be said for ANY other pre-or post war, commonly collected set in any sport?
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Bob - now that I think about it, you're right. I do see the same E97 BW's sell repeatedly. Maybe they are more rare than I was thinking. I have a Rossman, and haven't seen another. But the Doolan, Austin and a few others I can't think of I've seen a few times so they probably are all the same card.<br /><br />Joann
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>2, one in person and one in a picture.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Part of the problem of determining rarity is the reappearance of the same card again and again, and the difficulty in tracking it. I guess some percentage are bought purely for investment, so those are going to come back up for sale as soon as the seller feels he can make a profit.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>For a total and complete newbie to vintage this is a really wonderful thread. Learning a lot....<br /><br />I had expected to see someone call the Broadleaf 460's of the T206 set over rated? It was my opinion they were a tad over rated as it seemed as though at least 5 or 6 came up this year that I know of - and I don't follow all of the auctions.<br /><br />With the acception of a nicely graded one (which I have not seen) there seem to be a lot more 460's in the low SGC grdes then I had been lead to believe.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>My reply to your.....<br />...."the 1954 Bowman Williams is another card that hasn't proven to be as rare as once thought.<br /> I'm pretty sure I remember Larry Fritsch telling the story that as a kid in 1954, he bought a pack<br /> of Bowmans and all five cards were Williams!"......<br /><br />You stated this story exactly as I heard it 26 years ago. And, I believe Fritsch recalled it as it was.<br />It is not an experience, as a kid, that one would forget. I know I can still recall opening up certain<br />wax packs from the late 1940's or the 1950's and remembering what cards were in them.<br /><br />The Bowman Gum Co. was dumping their 1954 Ted Williams card (#66) as fast as they could because<br /> Topp's executive Sy Berger, himself an avid Ted Williams fan, took Bowman to court over the rights to<br />Ted Williams.<br />Recall that the 1954 Topps set's #1 & #250 cards are Ted and it was in the market before Bowman.<br /><br />TED Z <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>My memory is still pretty good <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Well, we are consistent.....you have seen just two Graziano's and I have seen only two. And,<br /> there is no way of telling if we saw the same two cards.<br /><br />While the other 49 cards in the 1948 Leaf set are printed on WHITE or GRAY cardboard stock,<br />the Graziano exists only with WHITE cardboard....which tells us he was issued in the very 1st<br />press run and immediately discontinued. The GRAY stock version of this set was printed in the <br />latter press runs.<br /><br />Rocky Graziano was a guest speaker at the 1984 National banquet in Parsippany, NJ. I recall<br /> that he was quite crude, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gave the Leaf Gum Co. a lot of grief;<br />so, they yanked his card. It's a shame, because in 1948, the Tony Zale vs Rocky Graziano con-<br />tests in Chicago were "big events"....and, Leaf was based in Chicago.<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>t206 bl 460's are NOT overrated...they are rare! Tbob...I believe you have an e97 b/w nichols...as I have one also and I was bummed when I saw yours!!!!<br /><br />pete in mn now in st thomas
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>One of the Grazianos (the one I saw in person) resides in the collection of a lurker here. The other one I saw in the news when it sold at auction some years ago. I agree that it was likely pulled over threats of litigation. Graziano was a notorious scrapper over his image and publicity. Should have married Heddy Lamarr <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />As far as pulling multiples of a player from a pack, best I can do is a 1981 Donruss pack that had several Pete Rose cards in it. Pulled that one in 1981. I think I'd rather have the Williams pack...
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I know of the one that you referred to that was in the auction some years back. Don Flanagan (NJ)<br />showed it to me at the Philly Show.<br /><br />So, we have one in common.....then that makes it 3 - Graziano's between us that we know of.<br /><br />That's not too many cards in the combined 50+ years of collecting between the two of us.<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Dave Hornish</b><p>Hedley.......
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Mastro auctioned a Leaf Graziano several years back, PSA graded. If you can find the right catalog, it has a big picture of the card-- whole page for the lot description. Auction was about 2000 or 2001.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>Earlier in the thread it was discussed that the Hoblitzell "No Stats on Back" Variation isnt as tough as many other cards. Well there's one for sale in the current mastro auction and the following is from their description:<br />"In fact, the item is not only the scarcest card in its set, it's one of the most sought-after of all tobacco cards from the period. Advanced collectors generally agree that even the famed T206 White Border rarities depicting Wagner, Plank and Magie exist in appreciably greater numbers than this Hoblitzell."<br /><br />Anyone agree that Hoblitzell no stats is scarcer then the Wagner T206!?
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>One of the hobbies myths is that the Kleinow (Boston) catching T206 is the rarer of the two T206 Kleinow catching poses. I would be willing to bet that I see 3-4 times as many of the Boston card as the New York version.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171340518.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1171340583.JPG"> <br /><br />Patrick
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Pete- You're right, my other one is the Nichols and yours is the only other one I have ever seen or heard of.<br />Joann- That Rossman of yours is the only one I have ever seen and I kick myself for waiting a day to decide whether or not to buy it from Frank W. on his webpage because when I went to buy it, it had just been sold. <br />Bob
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>guys...you say the kleinow is over rated and demmitt & o'hara are over rated, and that there are a lot that come up for auction...it is because they are in steady "re-circulation", many of these rare examples are being traded (bought/traded/sold) and are higher demand then their easier counterparts...
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Similar to Patrick contention, I see quite a few of the Frank Smith<br />Chicago and Boston T206s.<br />I remember quite a long while ago, Scot R. mentioned ,in his scarcity ordering ,that traditionalists insist on the scarcity of the Kleinow Boston<br />and Smith Chicago and Boston. It seemed obviously to me that Scot was <br />putting himself in a different camp. I agree with Scot.<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>well, all i know is that i have been looking for a nice condition smith, kleinow, lundgren, etc (i have owned them in lower grades), but they are tuff to find in general, let alone in mid-high grade...i was looking for demmitts & o'haras for years (of course i would see them pop up every now and then), but not in the best shape.<br /><br />with the internet age, you can bring any card, no matter how rare, to the market...during the years i was collecting prior to the internet, you had to search high & low for many of these rarities mentioned here, now you see them often because collectors who have them can bring them market easier...<br /><br />p.s. furthermore, they are ALL still commanding outrageous prices...so it can't just be a fluke
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dylan- first off, the catalog description of the Hoblitzell no stats is just marketing hype. But regardless of just how objectively rare it is, one seems to appear in virtually every major auction. That doesn't fit my definition of a rare card.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Other than the "big 4", certain cards in the T206 set are very simply tough because they were not printed with<br /> as many Tobacco brands as most of the cards were, or did not appear in as many Series....and, these are....<br /> <br />Demmitt & O'Hara (St Louis versions)....only with Polar Bear backs<br /><br />Donlin (hand on knees)....150-only Series with only Piedmont or Sweet Cap.<br /><br />Larry Doyle (throw)....Virtually a 150-only card with a seldom seen Piedmont 350 back <br /><br />Elberfeld (port-Wash.)....350-only Series with just Piedmont, Sweet Cap, and Old Mill<br /><br />Kleinow (catch-Boston)....460-only Series with no Sovereign brand<br /><br />Lundgren (Cubs)....150/350 Series with only Piedmont or EPDG backs<br /><br />Smith (Chi & Bost)....460-only Series with no Sovereign brand<br /><br />All 48 Southern Lgrs....printed only with Old Mill, Piedmont 350 backs<br />....and only 37 of these with with Hindu backs<br /><br />There are others, but these certainly rank as "higher level tough cards" in this set.<br /><br />TED Z<br /><br /> <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Informative list, there, Ted...<br /><br />Could you go a bit further with it, to Reulbach with glove?
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>Ted- thanks for helping illustrate my point...<br /><br />i was recently outbid on a Lungren PSA 5, it went for over $1200!<br /><br />here is a list i have posted in the past...cards which were issued ONLY in the 150 series (thus being tuffer)...<br /><br />wagner (obviously)<br />g. brown, chi<br />m. brown, cubs<br />burch, bat<br />donlin, knees<br />evers, cubs<br />pattee<br />pelty<br />powers<br />reulbach, glove<br /><br />this list can be found in lew lipset's book.<br /><br />then there are cards which exhibit team designation changes (which were short printed or only offered with certain brands, see Ted's list too)...<br /><br />demmitt <br />o'hara<br />elberfeld, wash<br />dahlen, bk<br />g. brown, wash<br />f. smith, chi & bos<br />lundgren, chi<br />kleinow, bos
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Sorry to repeat your info, but I was typing my post and in the meantime you posted your list.<br /><br />TED Z<br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Reulbach with glove is one of the 11 cards that are in the 150-only Series, and they are.....<br /><br />G. Brown (Chicago)<br />M. Brown (Cubs)<br />Burch (batting)<br />Donlin (hands/knees)<br />Evers (bat-blue sky)<br />Magie (Piedmont 150 only)<br />Pattee<br />Pelty (horiz)<br />Powers<br />Reulbach (glove)<br />Honus Wagner<br /><br />and there are 3 more possible 150-only cards which current surveys have not confirmed<br />with 350 backs.....<br /><br />Ames (hands/chest)<br />Ewing<br />Schulte (Cubs)<br /><br />TED Z <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>no sweat Ted...<br /><br />you are extremely knowledgable in this area, glad to have you on my side on this issue.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Granted that the Kleinow T206 (Boston) may be found in just the 460 series, it is NOT the rarer of the 2 Kleinow catching cards. I have seen 6 examples of the Kleinow (Boston) on ebay at the same time on numerous occasions. <br /><br /><br /><br />Patrick
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Bill K</b><p>What about the E93 blank backs that have come out of the wood lately? How rare are these? Is it true they were hand cut from a sheet? If so how recently? Whoever did cut up the sheet didn't do it very carefully.<br /><br />Sorry about all the questions. I love the E93's and the blank backs are intriguing to me (hence why I recently picked one up).<br /><br />Great thread BTW! Much better than discussing set registries or PSA vs. SCG threads. Very refreshing!<br /><br />Bill<br><br>My personal collection - <a href="http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/</a>
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>The last part of this thread has turned very productive for me, with these lists of relative scarcity among the various T206 series...and I am just SO thrilled that those cards listed seem to be disproportionately, my Cubbies. That's just swell, I feel so fortunate... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />Honestly, though, thanks for all the info, folks.<br /><br />Incidentally, I recall the story being that Larry pulled 5 Williams out of the 3 card pack.<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p><br />well i have seen many magies come up recently for sale, let alone kleinows, does that mean they are not rare? NO. <br /><br />the cards which are rarer are more desirable, thus get traded more often than regular commons...so any given day you might see a lot more rarities then you would expect, but it doesn't mean they are super plentiful, these are the cards that people want, and the owners are trading them more often, because they are more desirable.
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>PATRICK<br /><br />Mike just stated a good argument for why Kleinow (Boston) appears to be more available than it's NY version.<br /><br />Ebayer's are more interested in selling the higher priced Boston card....than the NY card, which is considered<br />a common. It simply boils down to a $200 card vs a $50 card (for = conditions).<br /><br />But, let's look at what recent surveys tell us (not POP reports).....<br /><br />Kleinow (NY) is a 350-only card and besides being available with Piedmont, Sweet Cap and Sovereign....<br />it can be found with Old Mill, Polar Bear and Tolstoi.<br /><br />Kleinow (Boston) is a 460-only card and is found with Piedmont, Sweet Cap, Old Mill, Polar Bear, and Tolstoi.<br /> It rarely is found with Cycle 460, Lenox and is NOT found with Sovereign 460. Also, a very rare Broad Leaf 460 <br />or a Red Hindu are possible.<br /><br />However, although the Boston card is available with more T-brands, you have to temper that with the fact<br />that the 460 series cards were not printed as much as the 350 Series cards.<br /><br />So, what we have here is a DRAW.....between the availability of these two Kleinow's (in their catching pose).<br /><br />TED Z
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Bill K,<br />To my knowledge there is only one example of each of the E93 blank backs. They surfaced from the same source as the two sets of E93 uncut sheets (in panels) that were auctioned by Mastro last year. I believe there were 19 total (one of each of 19 different fronts). I have never heard of any other blank back E93s. I think they have been underappreciated to this point.<br />JimB
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>Kleinow (Boston) is a 460-only card and is found with Piedmont, Sweet Cap, Old Mill, Polar Bear, and Tolstoi.<br />It rarely is found with Cycle 460, Lenox and is NOT found with Sovereign 460. Also, a very rare Broad Leaf 460 or a Red Hindu are possible.<br /><br />===<br />A broadleaf 460 Kleinow (Boston) came up a few months back. <br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>Patrick McMenemy</b><p>Ted:<br /><br />I certainly respect your veteran opinion and expertise regarding the T206 set. My personal observation regarding the Kleinow cards comes from doing a "daily search" since early 1991 when I started searching ebay. Kleinow is one of 7 catchers that I collect. Over that period of time, for every Kleinow (N.Y.) catching card I seen, I seen, at least, 4 to 5 times as many Kleinow (Boston)cards. The argument made previously about why the Boston card shows up so frequently doesn't hold up for me. Just my humble opinion.<br /><br />Patrick<br /><br />Patrick
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>To paraphrase you said:<br /><br />"2. Sorry Leon, Back types - I really think the market for these will be very thin going forward, especially if the average collector becomes less of an intense hobbyist and more a casual enjoyer of the hobby. I mean, you have to be a pretty intense collector for a back designation of "Herpolsheimer" to decide if you like a card or not..."<br /><br /><br />Wow.....you really haven't been watching ebay lately have you? If it's any indicator of the market for the "back" collecting, it's going through the roof...maybe more so than other areas ....Email me privately if you need some specific examples, currently. I am glad I overpaid several years ago for the ones I have today....BTW, the last 2 Red backed crofts have gone for over $3500 each...and were commons...regular black backed ones are in the $200-$300 range...I am not speaking of those as to current ebay stuff though.......best regards...<br /><br />
|
Which So-Called Rarities are Overrated?
Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>having been a type/backs collector most of my life I agree with Leon...the best is yet to come as far as valuations are concerned. Many of these rare backs are extremely difficult to find and when you do...they're not cheap...due to many difficult back types...these will only continue to increase in desirability and values...in my opinion.<br /><br />pete in mn
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:21 AM. |