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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Ripken and Gwynn were elected in true landslides. Gossage was close. McGwire wasn't.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>really needed to have a third electee to remain interesting.

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>The HOF is a joke, and the writers who elect the players are an even bigger joke. Dante Bichette received three( yes, three...not one) votes. Enough said.

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Posted By: <b>Andy Baran</b><p>I'm hoping that Jim Rice, Rich Gossage, and Andre Dawson have a good shot at getting in next year. The only new candidate who has any legitimate chance will be Tim Raines. Ricky Henderson is the only legitimate candidate in 2009. Slim picking over the next couple of years. The only problem is that Jim Rice is almost at the end of his eligibility by the writers.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>I think they all have a good shot (all had more than 50% this year, which is a good indication that they are still in the running...)<br />I'm with you on those 3<br /><br />I kinda hope McGwire never gets in, but that is far too idealistic and silly of me...<br /><br />So sad to see Bichette and Buhner bow out so quickly - seriously, who voted for Jay Buhner!?!?!?<br />see, those wasted votes are exactly the reason that guys like Dawson, Gossage and Rice don't get in, and that just chaps my bottom!<br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Jason,<br /><br />Frank Costanza voted for Buehner. He had a rocket for an arm!<br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>jP</b><p>cmon what a joke they gotta let Garvey in and eventually the "bulldog" <br /><br />go dodgers!<br><br>my collection: <a href="http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/</a>

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>One of my favorite players was former Blue Jays and Yankee infielder Tony Fernandez and it's good to see that he got four votes. <br /><br />I expected around eight, but four is okay for the first ballot. Hopefully next year, he will have a better chance with such a weak class and we are aiming for double digit votes! <br /><br />Tony Fernandez .288 ba 2276 hits 94 hrs <br />Phil Rizzuto .273 ba 1588 hits 38 hrs<br />Bobby Doerr .288 ba 2042 hits 223 hrs (juiced?)<br /><br />DJ

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Tony Fernandez will need to be a write-in next year, because since he only garnered 0.7% of the vote this year (less than the 5% minimum), his name will be automatically dropped for future balloting.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Do we know the percentage of votes McGwire got?

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>McGwire got 23.5%<br /><br />apologies for formatting, but here's the results:<br /><br /><br />2007 BBWAA Hall of Fame Voting Results<br /> <br />Candidate Votes<br /> % of Votes <br />Cal Ripken Jr. 537 98.5 <br />Tony Gwynn 532 97.6 <br />Rich Gossage 388 71.2 <br />Jim Rice 346 63.5 <br />Andre Dawson 309 56.7 <br />Bert Blyleven 260 47.7 <br />Lee Smith 217 39.8 <br />Jack Morris 202 37.1 <br />Mark McGwire 128 23.5 <br />Tommy John 125 22.9 <br />*Steve Garvey 115 21.1 <br />Dave Concepcion 74 13.6 <br />Alan Trammell 73 13.4 <br />Dave Parker 62 11.4 <br />Don Mattingly 54 9.9 <br />Dale Murphy 50 9.2 <br />Harold Baines 29 5.3 <br />Orel Hershiser 24 4.4 <br />Albert Belle 19 3.5 <br />Paul O'Neill 12 2.2 <br />Bret Saberhagen 7 1.3 <br />Jose Canseco 6 1.1 <br />Tony Fernandez 4 0.7 <br />Dante Bichette 3 0.6 <br />Eric Davis 3 0.6 <br />Bobby Bonilla 2 0.4 <br />Ken Caminiti 2 0.4 <br />Jay Buhner 1 0.2 <br />Scott Brosius 0 0.0 <br />Wally Joyner 0 0.0 <br />Devon White 0 0.0 <br />Bobby Witt 0 0.0 <br />

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>The writers are a friggin joke. One writer left his ballot blank. That was to make sure than neither Ripken nor Gwynn were elected unanomously. <br /><br />Did I tell you the story about waking Cal up at 2:30 in the morning during spring training? Well that's another thread. Joe<br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Wow- McGwire only got 23.5%, that's a dismal showing for sure. He is likely to never get in. How many players who show that poorly the first time make it to 75%? I would guess nobody ever has. And yes, the one vote for Jay Buhner had to be Frank Costanza.

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>A write in? Tony is screwed! How about the Veteran's commitee? 2076?<br /><br />What does the (*) mean beside Garvey's name?<br /><br />I'm pleased with the stand that the writer's took by disallowing "The Hulk" with less than 25%. <br /><br />I could be wrong but did Tom Seaver come closest to 100%? <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Griffin's</b><p>I"m betting the * next to Garvey means his last year on the writers ballot.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>If youre gonna keep McGwire out for using performance enhancers, better check out all those players who popped greenies for a little extra boost and get them out of there. Also might want to kick out Cap Anson who was pivotal in keeping blacks out of baseball, Ty Cobb, who reportedly beat a man to death, etc etc.<br /><br />I am not saying McGwire belongs in the HOF, but the Hall would be a lot emptier if we started examining everyone's careers as closely as we are examining his.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>One of the 2 blank ballots sent in was by a sports writer who said he's not voting for anyone from the steroid era until the dust settles and we see who did and who didn't. Not saying I agree with him, that's just what he said.<br />I remember reading that when Babe Ruth was up the first time, a couple of writers didn't vote for him because they said he was one dimensional and could only slug. What a bunch of morons, ignoring the fact he saved the game after the Black Sox and also was a helluva pitcher. <br />BTW Tom Seaver's 98.8% vote is the highest ever although not one person here would say he was the greatest pitcher ever (I don't think)....

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Posted By: <b>Aaron Cowan</b><p>It looks like Gossage, Rice and Dawson will have a good chance in the next couple of years. Considering that 83 votes went towards players who garnered less than %5, Gossage was 21 votes away, Rice was 63, and Dawson was 100. I can see Orel and Albert getting a very very little bit of consideration, but from O'Neill down why are those idiots throwing their votes away? The HOF is screwed up. Years ago they let in tons of people because the vets had fond memories of the fellow players. Now you have to truly dominate. Consider the dominant first basemen from the 90s to the present: Bagwell, Thomas, McGwire, McGriff, Pujols, Helton, Thome, Delgado, Palmeiro. I'm not saying all these guys deserve it, but how many will get in from one position. After all, the writers should consider how dominant a player was at their position in respect to the their contemporaries. <br /><br />With all that said, I'm glad the voting went the way it did and hope to see Gossage, Rice, Dawson and even Lee Smith in there soon. As for McGwire....good riddance.<br><br>Aaron Cowan<br />acowan19@gmail.com

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bob- Growing up in NY and being a Mets fan, I saw Seaver pitch regularly in his prime, and I have to tell you, he was as good as any pitcher I have ever seen. He had a rising fastball that was simply frightening. I'm not saying he is the best ever, but seeing him so often was a special treat.

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Posted By: <b>mark</b><p>Rice is on the bubble, but the modern players (1970-2001) are in a different era than the vintage guys (1890-1920). They should elect more players from the vintage era since it was a whole different ball game back then. Mcgwire will never get in<br />because his statements to the American public a few years ago sealed it for him. Of course IMHO.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Red Barber who has watched and called more games than anyone once said 5 years ago that if his life depended on the outcome of a game and he could choose one pitcher to pitch, he would choose Carl Hubbell.<br />I think Seaver was a heckuva pitcher but he belongs in the Jim Palmer-Bob Gibson class, not the Walter Johnson-Lefty Grove class.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Too young to have seen Grove, Hubbell, or Johnson- but I would guess nobody was in Johnson's class. I saw Palmer and Gibson in their prime, I remember Gibson's 1968 season vividly, and you just couldn't score a run off him. Palmer was a terror too. It's always tough to say who is best.

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Seaver was the best. The writers have spoken. (OK, so I was a four year old kid in NY when the '69 Mets won the world series, so maybe I'm biased).<br /><br />I always like to tell the story of the four guys who didn't vote for Seaver. Two writers didn't vote for him as a protest for Pete Rose not being on the ballot. One didn't vote for him because he was sedated in a hospital and filled out his ballot incorrectly. The final writer didn't vote for him to ensure that no one would be elected unanimously. As far as I'm concerned, that's "practical" unanimity.<br /><br />By the way, to answer Barry's question, players have come back from very low vote totals to be elected -- even by the writers. I believe Luke Appling and Luis Aparacio both had vote totals below 20% and then were elected. If you include guys elected by the veterans committee, then the numbers go even lower. I think Earl Averill received one total vote from the writers ever, but was elected by the veterans committee. (I may be mixing some people up here, but all of the data is listed alphabetically by player on the HOF website). I don't think McGwire will make this kind of comeback, unless his low vote total this year was just a symbolic protest to keep him out of the Hall for one year.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Paul- those are interesting numbers, but McGwire is the beginning of a long line of steroid users, most notably Sosa, Palmiero, and the granddaddy of them all- Bonds. Aparicio and Appling had no dirty laundry. We shall see.

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Barry, I agree. I don't think McGwire stands a chance with the writers unless (and I think it's unlikely) this year's vote was just a one-time protest to send some kind of a message.

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Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>McGwire, Dawson, Rice will go in next year. They just made a statement with not voting in McGwire this year. Cant overlook his 70 HRs and crazy HR%. Best power of his era, and everyone stopped to watch his ABs. But then again Canseco had the same qualities 10 years earlier. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Bonds this Bonds that. Id like to see the list of the 100 players (3 per team ave) that had positive tests in 2003. How many of these big boys are on that list (not including the obvious bigheaded HGH users) Pujols, Thomas, ARod, Posada, Thome, Delgado, Hafner, Teixeira, Edmonds, Rolen, Ramirez, Ortiz, A & C. Jones, Dunn, Glaus, Konerko, Ordonez, Tejada, Gomes, Giles, Nevin, etc. etc.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I think Bonds gets in here in his 2nd year. The first year will be a protest vote, the 2nd year he gets in because he was a HOFer before he started juicing it. IMHO.<br />I also have a problem with Roger Clemens. There have been rumors of his possible steroid involvement (how does some one gain more velocity and get bigger and stronger in the twilight of his career), but I think he'll be in the Hall also. So far the pitchers have received a free pass in all the steroid talk, it will be interesting to see what comes down the line.<br />I also noticed the absence of Tony Oliva in the voting this year, I guess last year was his last. A real tragedy, hopefully the veteran's committee will vote him along with Ed Reulbach and Bill Dahlen.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Many voters said they would vote for McGwire when the steroids cloud hanging over<br />him clears up-- specifically when he addresses the issue, the last time he addressed<br />it being when he testified before Congress. At the least, McGwire created an unanswered <br />question by the testimony, an unanswered question he has refused to address much<br />less answer ... It should be noted that if he did use steroids ilegally, he might <br />be unwilling to say so freely for fear of legal issues. There is a Federal steroids case<br />going on.<br /><br />A practical problem for a writer may be that if he votes for McGwire this <br />year, McGwire might admit next year he used steroids throughout the 1990s, <br />and the writer can't take that vote back if it put him into the Hall of<br />Fame. Considering there are 15 years to vote for a player, and McGwire <br />obviously is in no hurry address the situtation, a prudent writer may wait for<br />later years to consider voting for McGwire. Neither Joe DiMaggio nor Jimmie Foxx <br />were voted into the Hall in their first years, so there's no rule writers can't wait<br />to vote in a player. History doesn't look poorly on DiMaggio because he wasn't <br />voted in right away.<br /><br />The steroid issue effects McGwire much more than Bonds. With McGwire, 90 percent<br />(or more) of his HOFerability is his home run totals from the mid to late 1990s.<br />Without those home runs, he would not be a Hall of Famer. With Bonds, on the<br />other hand, if he had never hit more than 30 home runs, he would have still been a HOFer-- <br />batting average, stolen bases, fielding, etc.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>McGuire is a poor man's Harmon Killebrew, but the Killer played it clean.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>I have no problem with ordinary players getting a vote or two. It has nothing to do with why Dawson, Rice and Gossage have not been elected. Writers know that certain players won't get in so they sometimes give a token vote to one or two of those guys for sentimental reasons. It may not be right but it's not as if those votes would instead have gone to more deserving players.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>No way McGwire gets in next year. Too far to go in votes and too many writers will object for years. I read an article recently in the NY Times I believe that noted that players not elected on the first ballot usually get elected in years in which there are NO first ballot HOFs elected. This explains why Gossage and, let's say, Rice, didn't get in this year but will next year as there are no clear first timers. Clearly Gossage belongs. In my mind, so does Rice, Dawson and Garvey. These guys dominated a decade or so of baseball. Isn't that enough? (Though I recognize that Garvey has no shot at this point except through the vet's committee)

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>Tom Terrific would probably be on my all-time greatest staff:<br /><br />Walter Johnson<br />Lefty Grove<br />Tom Seaver<br />Satchell Paige<br />Christy Mathewson<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>And Andrew Parks is now on my list of favorite board members!

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>SWEET!<br /><br />Seriously, though, if you look at the ERA of Seaver versus his contemporaries...he crushes. His Relative ERA is off the charts - same as Lefty Grove.<br /><br />I know people will question my decision to keep Cy Young and Pete Alexander off, but I think there's something not quite right about four of the greatest picthers ever coming from the same era...things that make ya go hmmmm.

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Parks</b><p>By the way - I just booked my Hall-of-Fame weekend. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>I think its ridiculous to hold a player out of the Hall due to cheating. Cheating is a part of baseball and always has been. Ty Cobb once called baseball "as ungentlemanly as a kick in the crotch." Dextroamphetimine use has been rampent since atleast the 1940's. These media folks need to get off their high horse. You cant single out one player and punish him. I do understand waiting to vote the man in after the cloud clears up a bit but if he never gets in on the grounds of "cheating" that would be a travesty, because u might as well kick out 98% of the other guys in that case too. I have a book called it aint cheatin' if you don't get caught, and its all about the history and the incredible amount of cheating thats taken place in our national pastime. Its a fun read.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dylan,<br /><br />I agree with you cheating has always been part of the game. If they exclude McGwire, the HOF should kick out Gaylord Perry for admitting to throwing spitters.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>If you say it's ok to cheat, then why even play the game? <br /><br />Those stories may be a fun read, but what's the use in immortalizing a cheater? It's as though you are saying, "Congratulations, you were one of the best that ever played the game...even though you weren't limited by the rules like everyone else"<br /><br />No high horse here, I just don't see the sense in celebrating someone who didn't know how to play the game.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>In the Old West, if you were caught cheating at cards you were shot dead. If they<br />had no proof, you were only shot.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Barry,to answer your question about someone having a lower vote total and making it. I dont know how many players have but one of my favorite being a Pirates fan is the fact in 1946 Paul Waner got 4 votes,a total that would now kick him off the ballot. He wasnt elected till 1952<br /><br />Billy Williams also got 23% of the votes his first year and ended up being elected about 5 years later

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>David,<br /><br />Your exactly right. Andro was not a banned substance when Mark was using it. Maybe he just didn't want to talk about it in from of Congress. That is far from getting caught cheating. If nothing changes...McGwire should go in HOF next year.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Anyone think that McGwire facilitated the discovery of andro in his locker in order to deflect suspicions about illegal steroid use?

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>I feel bad for McGwire because he didn't lie in a congressional hearing and he didn't deny using steroids like a few others did. He's the poster child of the steroid/HOF era. It's too bad that he's the first known candidate to be shunned because he's honest in that he didn't deny what he did. <br /><br />I want to see what happens to Barry when his time comes around. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I think it's tough to compare players from different eras based on numbers alone. Look at Mathewson's year in 1905: He won 32 - but 17 pitchers that year won at least 20. There were 219 shutouts that year in baseball and nearly 2000 complete games.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>McGwire won't be voted in before he discusses satisfactarily the issue to the public. <br />Many voters have specfically said they won't vote for him until he talks. This<br />includes voters who are otherwise inclined to vote hor him. If McGwire doesn't say<br />anything in the next year, I don't know how that will gain him more votes.

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Posted By: <b>whycough</b><p> I always enjoy reading the posts on subjects like this. I always wonder about some of the people who are allowed to vote for entrace into the hall: I wonder if they are old enough to have seen a Gossage or Rice play or how much they know about baseball's history. I think perhaps there should be some kind of test taken before voting rights are granted. I think that being a beat writer covering today's Major League scene might not be enough.<br /> I always wonder about people who can look at McGuire's hyperbolic body and shrug it off by talking about some pitcher who cut the ball on his belt buckle. Then I remind myself that we live in times where two wrongs do make a right. On McGuire: I like to remember seeing McGuire being interviewed in the Card's locker room in the days he was smashing the ol' pill and he was in a cut-short tee shirt that showed his biceps bulging and my reponse was laughter. The same kind of automatic laughter that sprang from my diaphragm when I saw Arnold Schwarzenegger in a preview of the coming movie, Conan the Barbarian. <br /> Andrew, as far as including Seaver in the top five of all time, I would answer that, of the twirlers I've been lucky enough to see, I would rate Pedro, Koufax, Bob Gibson, and maybe Spahn as being superior to Tom Terrific (anyone else remember Tom Terrific?). I suspect that a healthy Pedro was as good as anyone who took the hill.

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Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>I was really pulling for Rice. Too bad.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />If your ready to hang McGwire based on circumstantial evidence, why don't we just do the same with Roger "Rocket" Clemens. Wasn't he also mentioned as a steroid user in Canseco's book. Weren't there times when his actions were erratic like those of a steroid user.<br /><br />Doesn't his high level of performance at a late age suspect. Isn't he pretty buff also.<br /><br />Why don't we exclude him also. What I'm saying is that you really don't have that much more on McGwire.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>"This is like deja vu all over again." -Yogi Berra

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I compare athletes using steroids to signing a contract with the Devil, and everyone knows how<br />a contract with the Devil works. Palmiero knows.

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Posted By: <b>Denny</b><p>Has Any Body even Mention'd "Big" Ed Walsh? He has the lowest era of any pitcher ever. He's the only guy ever to pitch & win(complete games at that) a double header...Twice! I'm a "Big Six" fan Along with "Big Ed"....Matty won the 1905 World series(3-0) almost by himself! I do agree with Barry's opinion about Seaver. I grew up in Astoria & moved to Long Island, Tom was definately a force to be recond with....<br /><br />Denny Walsh

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Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>No qwalms with Gwynn and Ripken...I wished Goose Gossage had gotten in this time. <br /><br />Ricky

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Tony Gwynn was quoted in the paper today saying: "We all knew. All you all knew. We knew. Players knew. Owners knew. Everybody knew. And we didn't say anything about it."<br /><br />That's a pretty strong statement from someone as easygoing as Tony. I guess because the home run made so much money for major league baseball, everybody went blind until it could no longer stay hidden.

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Posted By: <b>Tony Andrea</b><p>The way I see it is this. If your going to keep one out from the steroid era such as Mcgwire, I dont have a problem with it, but you'd better keep them all out if your going to do that.<br />Otherwise your simply picking and choosing only certain players out of a large group and thats not right. If Mac doesnt get in, neither should Bonds, Palmerio, Sosa, Sheffield, and even some of the marque pitchers some others have mentioned. <br />Personally I think he deserves to be in since Bonds will get in. You simply cannot say yes to that guy and no to this guy. Doesnt matter what happened in congress that day. What matters is what happened on the field throughout his career. <p> Tony

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"I would rate Pedro, Koufax, Bob Gibson, and maybe Spahn as being superior to Tom Terrific (anyone else remember Tom Terrific?)."<br /><br />Some good choices there but for the sake of discussion and good ol' fashioned fun, I will defend my pick.<br /><br />Koufax's career was too short - the guy didn't even win 200 games. He's Dwight Gooden's career, the other way. He also benefitted from a no offense era and Dodger stadium. He was great - don't get me wrong but Tom's endurance and stability smashes Koufax.<br /><br />Gibson was great too - probably more dominating for a shorter time, but again - he didn't win 300 games. There's a reason for that...and the Cards had some great teams so it wasn't lack of offense.<br /><br />Pedro was as dominating a pitcher as I have ever seen. How can anybody forget his 6 inning no-hit performance against the Indians while he was injured. But a bit too brittle for me to put him up as one of the 5 greatest ever.<br /><br />Spahn had all the numbers - 363 wins - a 118 RelERA and is a good choice here. I can't argue much against that but Tom's RelERA was still better.<br /><br />These guys may have all been better pitchers at some point in their careers than Spahn ever was, but for sure dominance and longetivity, I still go with Seaver.

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Posted By: <b>whycough</b><p> I'm glad you took up the cudgel in this little debate on the rating of moundsmen we have actually seen with our own eyes. First, let me explain one thing. I believe that longevity is overrated when looking at the relative greatness of baseball players. I'm more of a talent guy. If Player A is a superior player for 10 years to Player B, but then leaves the game (for what ever reason); and then Player B continues his excellence at his slightly lesser level than Player A for, say, 5 more years, then I still consider Player A a better player. I also like to judge players when they are healthy. When Koufax and Pedro were healthy and at their peaks, they had more talent and were better than any other pitchers I have seen (batters had no shot!). I also like to greatly consider the evidence of my own eyes rather than being just a stat guy. Both these criterion (longevity overrated and the evidence of my own eyes) have led me to conclude that, among other conclusions that<br /> 1. Pedro and Koufax were the best pitchers I've ever seen. By far.<br /> 2. Clemente was better than Aaron.<br /> 3. Mantle and DiMaggio I would rate #5 and #6 of all time (both retired at 36)<br /> 4. Ted Williams is the second greatest player of all time (take away his war years lost, put him in Yankee Stadium or Tiger Stadium).<br /> 5. Joe Wood belongs in the Hall. <br /><br />I must confess, however, that I never saw Joe D or Smokey Joe with my own eyes. But I do read a great deal. Old films help also.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Joe DiMaggio didn't get enough votes the first year he was eligible. Hard to believe.<br />A case can be made why McGwire doesn't belong in the Hall even if he never took steroids. He hit .263 and had no MVPs to his name, not even finishing close. He was a below average fielder. He never won a Golden Glove except one year when all the first basemen seem to have injuries the same year (Mattingly was out for most of the year). He stole only a handful bases in his career. If you compare him to Harmon Killebrew who took several tries to get in, the Killer was MVP in '65 and finished either 2nd or 3rd in the MVP voting several times.<br />I would compare McGwire to Dale Murphy in terms of eligibility and Murph had back to back MVP years.<br />McGwire doesn't deserve to get in even if he were clean which I am convinced he wasn't.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>No HOF for Big Mac, special sauce or not<br />He put on quite a show in 98, but hey, 1 year ain't enough

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Bob, of course, you're right. Unfortunately, once a player reaches that 500 HR magical plateau all common sense flies out the window. Look at Fred McGriff. I think he retired a few HRs short of 500 and will barely be an afterthought when he is eligible. Had he hit a few more HRs...different story -- he probably becomes Wade Boggs to some extent in terms of Hall-worthy stats. All that being said, tons of players cheated in the dead ball era so I'm not sure (though I wish) we can keep players out forever due to their cheating. Tell me this, however: watching McGwire even being considered for the Hall--doesn't it piss you off that Rose cannot even get on the ballot?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Bob, Jason<br /><br />You've brought up legitimate arguments why McGwire should not be elected the first time. However, once this steroid controversy blows over, he will be elected.<br /><br />With regard to pitchers like Koufax, Pedro, and Smokey Joe Woods, they are among the best but I would say that longevity is an absolute must. The Hall of Fame gives ballplayers a break when they make a player eligible after 10 years. For the superstars, we are talking about a 15-20 year minimum.<br /><br />You guys have forgotten Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove. Their skills and longevity are legendary.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>LetsGoBucs</b><p>"Clemente was better than Aaron"<br /><br />You get a gold star for the day!!!

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Clemente was a better fielder than Aaron, but you can't believe that he was also a better hitter can you. And since hitting is more important than fielding, Aaron was a better overall player.<br /><br />Clemente has a legendary arm but that's not enough.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>I know this has already been said but...<br /><br />Anyone that didn't first ballot Ripken or Gwynn apparently doesn't know baseball or appreciate it enough give these players their due. Who cares about the past. I say remove the privalege of voting from those idiots. <br /><br />These two players were actually GOOD GUYS in baseball. What kind of writer could deny either of these two a vote? Ripken received more votes than Gwynn. How can that be? There must be some cloud of stupidity that blankets the minds of the voters that voted for Ripken but not Gwynn. That little fat guy could just plain HIT (eight batting titles says so...)

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Getting in on the first round is by far the toughest and there are writers that want to maintain that tradition. Joe Dimaggio didn't get in until about the 3rd round.<br /><br />I say that our vintage forum should get a vote on the next HOF ballot. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I beleive several voters don't vote for players in their first year no matter who is on the ballot.<br />I think too much is made of which year and what percentage, especially as players are voted in comparison<br />to who else is on the ballot. Ripken and Gwynn weren't on the ballot last year, perhaps making it easier<br />for Sutter. Tom Seaver was a fine pitcher, one of the best of all time, but obviously wasn't the best<br />best ball player in the history of the game. Ripken isn't the third best player ever. The HOF ballot<br />percetnages aren't a direct reflection to a player's greatness. Jimmie Foxx got 10 votes in his first <br />year and didn't get voted in until the seventh year. Many or most would rank Foxx above Rikpen and Gwynn<br />in greatness.<br /><br />Whether it's the first or 15th year, if you're voted into the Hall of Fame you're a Hall of Famer. When <br />visiting the museum, Eddie Mathews and Joe DiMaggio were allowed to use the same bathroom as the first <br />year guys. Mike Schmidt was never heard to say, "Hey, who let DiMaggio in here. There's a Honey Bucket<br />in the parking lot you guys."

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Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>"I say that our vintage forum should get a vote on the next HOF ballot."<br />As if. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>never said that? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />He has been rather outspoken about who should be in or out in the past... (Santo, Rose, etc)<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Clemente was a better fielder than Aaron but Aaron was still an outstanding defensive player. He was also a much better hitter than clemente and a better base runner.

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Posted By: <b>whycough</b><p> The Great Roberto was worth the price of admission all by himself. He had the BEST outfield arm I've ever seen. He was a Jackie Robinson-type baserunner. The only better fielder I've seen is Willie Mays. Ask Wayne Varner. As Joe D once told a friend about the wonder of making love with MM, "You should'a been there."

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You know, if you went strictly by the numbers, you could make a case that Aaron was the greatest player of all time. Not saying he is, just that you could have a solid argument in his behalf.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joe D. made love to Mickey Mantle- I thought they hated each other <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>whycough</b><p> Very droll, Barry!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I guess I picked the wrong MM!

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>I agree that Clem had one of the all-time great arms but a "Jackie Robinson type base runner"? If you mean that they both ran by putting one foot ahead of the other then I agree. Clem had some speed and was a smart base runner but Robinson has been widely acknowledged as one of the all-time great base runners. He was a guy who could get into a pitchers head just by being on base. A better comparison between the two would be their courage and their commitment to social causes.<br /><br />P.S. - despite Clemente's deservedly lionized heroics in the '71 series Aaron's post season numbers are much better than his.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Jeff- I agree 100%. As long as Speaker and Cobb are in (as well as others who bet and tried to influence games) Rose deserves to be in the Hall as a player.<br />That's a different kettle of fish from this thread, though, so no more.<br />On Clemente, I saw both he and Aaron play. Clemente was a great player but Aaron, in the words of many of the best pitchers of that era, was the one guy they didn't want to come to the plate with men on base. I think Aaron has never gotten the recognition he was due, other than being labeled the all-time HR king.<br />On Aaron as the best of all time? In a word, no. Babe Ruth was the greatest player who ever put on a uniform. Maybe it is close between Babe and Willie and Ted and Roberto and Hank, but then you have to consider the fact Ruth was the best left handed pitcher in baseball while he was on the mound. It would be like trying to decide who was the greatest football player of all time and finding out not only was Jim Brown one of the greatest running backs, but he was also the greatest middle linebacker who ever lived.<br />Just my 2 cents.<br />tbob

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Howard- while I agree Clemente had one of the greatest World Series ever, it was the 1971 Series.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bob- my argument for Aaron was strictly by the numbers: 1st in home runs, RBI's, total bases, and extra base hits; 3rd in hits and runs (I think). Those are monster stats in all the most important categories. Of course, there are others who were as good or better, but those numbers don't lie.

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Thanks Barry. I think '72 was Gene Tenace's year.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I agree with you and that's why Hank was better than Roberto Clemente.<br /><br />Bill James did an analysis of the value of Clemente's fabled right arm and came to the conclusion that it didn't really contribute to winning that many ball games.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Clemente was my favorite player when I was growing up but Aaron had a better career. And I think he may be 4th in runs scored, behind Henderson, Cobb, and Rose. I'm doing this from memory, so can someone confirm that number?