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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />We would appreciate it if you could address the issues discussed in a similar manner as Doug Allen from Mastronet and Clean Sweep Auctions.<br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />Jim
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Brian has informed me that he will not respond to these questions in an open forum.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I will be curious to see if he loses any business as a result. My guess is he will.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>Any feel on the reasoning for the unwillingness to reply?
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>No good will come of it, doesn't have the time and people are too negative on here.<br /><br />I urged him to change his mind but don't hold out much hope.<br /><br />He offered to talk to me privately in Reading which I will not be at.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>People are too negative? What a laugher. Translated that means "people are not lapping up the BS the way they used to." What could he possibly fear other than the truth? Lame. Brian, not that you care, but the 20K I spent in your last auction is the last you'll see from me.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"people are too negative on here"<br /><br />The only negatives I have seen are in regards to:<br /><br />1. Removing surface wrinkles that only show up on one side of the card. <br />2. Selling your own inventory without identification. <br /><br />It is probably pretty safe to assume he participates in those two activities. Does he perform or do other things that would make him fear some real negative feedback? The feedback on the above two items was not overwhelmingly negative, in fact, the people have been commended for speaking out.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Wow, what a statement. This guy is content to sit idly by while people who have spent 5 digit numbers in his previous auctions actively state they will no longer participate. Not real big on auctions myself and the "buyers premium" but this is a slam dunk to me on who to avoid. What an interesting marketing ploy. Some say it best when they say nothing at all. Maybe customer service isnt in his top 5 most important goals. Thanks Jim for undertaking this, i will certainly continue to follow with great interest.<br /><br />Noel Wrye
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>deleted until I speak with Steve...I have saved this whole response in a word document...thanks (leon)....STeve- you need to email me and I will shoot you back the response. Why didn't you put your email address? Also, your IP address is different from your last login? I am being careful here on purpose (leon)<br /><br />ALSO- this IP has been blocked for the moment as a precaution. This post can be posted again after I speak with Steve....
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Somehow I think that last post will interest Brian more than my last one.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Auction houses should remember that with the plethora of auctions every month and with the large volume of items offered, bidders have more discretion in choosing which company to give their business to. <br /><br />It can't be good for business to refuse to answer a few simple questions. <br><br>Frank
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Billy Stair</b><p>I am definately not a "big buyer" as many here are, but I still appreciate the effort of Jim to get some answers and I know if I was dropping $20Gs on this guys auctions I would definately take my business elsewhere until questions are answered.<br /><br />I have always been of the opinion if one was above board and honest about a subject they could answer freely ( this goes back to my years in Law Enforcement) and those that in fact took the 5th usually had a reason why they didn't want to talk.<br /><br />Good info Jim.<br /><br />Bill
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Brian Drent</b><p><br />I wanted to take a minute to clear some things up, I feel that Jim may have misrepresented our communication. Below is my email to him in response to his inquiry. As you can see from the email I am extremely busy with finishing our catalog for our January auction, as well as getting ready for the Reading show. I do plan on answering Jim's questions next week when I will be able to devote more adequate time to such a sensitive and important subject. We greatly appreciate and hold in high regard our customers as well as consignors and would never do anything to jeapordize that. <br /><br /><br />Jim,<br /><br /> <br /><br />I wanted to send you a quick email to let you know that I did receive your emails. I don’t believe I will respond in an open forum, because I don’t believe any good for the hobby will come of it, and that from what I have seen on the board only negative stances are taken. I am also in the final stages of finishing my next auction catalog and really don’t have adequate time to spend with this issue. I will be at the Reading show and if you are there I would enjoy speaking with you at that time, or you can call me on my cell at 303-748-1371 to discuss this issue.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Respectfully, <br /><br /> <br /><br />Brian Drent<br /><br />President<br /><br />Mile High Card Company<br /><br />brian@milehighcardco.com<br /><br />(303) 840-2784<br /><br />www.milehighcardco.com<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I think my question is being answered. Edited to add that I dont believe Jim misrepresented anything. I dont see where in the email above it states that a response will follow next week.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Brian, with all respect, Jim did not misrepresent you at all. When you stated that 'no good to the hobby will come from' these inquiries, what on earth were you referring to? Unless the hobby is making more cash for auction houses, I'm at a loss to understand why you would claim that endeavoring to find out if auction houses alter cards is a useless quest. With the time you spent in responding, couldn't you just take 5 mins to respond to the issue at hand?
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Colt McClelland</b><p>Jim absolultely did misrepresent the facts in his message tonight on this thread. Brian's email was professional, polite, and made it clear that he is more than willing to discuss these issues and answer questions. Jim, on the other hand, made it seem as if Brian made a curt dismissal of the request without any interest in discussing this matter. In addition, Jim misrepresented that he "urged him to change his mind" which is clearly not the case. <br /><br />If Brian does not want to do it on this forum, that's his choice. If that ultimately is his choice, I frankly don't blame him as this board has a bad reputation for people being treated unfairly and with malice without justification.<br /><br />I've been a collector for almost 30 years, and Brian ranks as one of the best dealers I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. Jumping to false conclusions and throwing out uninformed accusations is at the very least morally and ethically repugnant, and I would hope that a collecting community as erudite as this one would practice some restraint and perform serious due diligence before taking things to that level. <br /><br />Why don't you guys just pick up the phone and call Brian if you want an answer to some questions.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I know Brian and have dealt with him and have never had a problem. I don't think we should accuse someone or insinuate something for not wanting to post on this board. For the record Steve Verkman's response was so over the top I had to copy it into a word doc until I speak with him. Steve posted from a different IP addres (not too unusual) last time but also posts his email in his threads...this one above didn't have a return email and was extremely inflammatory. I am being careful, that's all....thanks again
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jim's statement: "Brian has informed me that he will not respond to these questions in an open forum."<br /><br />Brian's email: "I don’t believe I will respond in an open forum"<br /><br />Jim: "No good will come of it, doesn't have the time and people are too negative on here."<br /><br />Brian: "I don’t believe any good for the hobby will come of it and that from what I have seen on the board only negative stances are taken."<br /><br />Brian: "I am also in the final stages of finishing my next auction catalog and really don’t have adequate time to spend with this issue."<br /><br />Jim: "He offered to talk to me privately in Reading which I will not be at."<br /><br />Brian: "I will be at the Reading show and if you are there I would enjoy speaking with you at that time, or you can call me on my cell at 303-748-1371 to discuss this issue."<br /><br /><br />I see no misrepresentation whatsoever - the only thing left out was that Brian also left a phone number. I also dont see where Jim's statements imply that Brian was anything less than professional. Finally, as to Jim's statement about urging Brian to change his mind, well, absent the follow up emails, we are in no position to say whether Jim did so or not, but I see no reason to doubt him. On the other hand, explain to me where Brian has informed Jim that he "plan[s] on answering Jim's questions next week when I will be able to devote more adequate time to such a sensitive and important subject." <br /><br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Wow.......<br /><br />See it as you may. But i don't see how Jim misrepresented anything.<br /><br />That email speaks volumes to me about how at least one auction house<br />Views us as buyers.<br /><br />Pretty much ( I have know time for the B.S. on the board but continue spending your money. )<br /><br />Leon,<br /><br />I would really like to see the deleted post. <br /><br />I for one think this is very important as it will decide where i will spend my hard earned money in the future.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>How long have you been around collecting vintage cards?<br /><br />I ask because I suspect you do not know the history of many card dealers and what they have and have not done "personally" with cards they have sold! Why have you not asked them if they have tampered with cards as well as how they feel about some of the methods used and whether they go beyond the "grey" area or not! As long as you are asking them how they feel,ask them what they have done to cards they have owned and sold. Some of us who have been around collecting true vintage cards for over 30 years will be entertained! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>First, I don't think I misrepresented Brian's response. Maybe I wasn't warm and fuzzy but I thought I captured the essence of what he said.<br /><br />I like Brian--I have known him a long time and have bought cards from him. I believe he is one of the hobby good guys.<br /><br />Still, I think dealers underestimate the level of anxiety among collectors.<br /><br />From everything I am hearing, it doesn't seem like there is anything to be done about light crease removal other than to get dealers word they will not do it. The key and Leon pointed this out is the microtrimming/reshaping that is going on and is it getting by the graders.<br /><br />BcD,<br /><br />Why don't I ask them if they have tampered with vintage cards? They don't respond now--imagine if I asked them that.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>I too, have had nothing but positive transactions with Brian. However, I had at least three or four collectors question me privately at the time about purchases of PSA graded cards I had made from him several years ago. So the insinuations about Brian (whether true or not) have been around for some time as to him "improving" cards. As such, I would be interested to read his response to Jim's questions as well.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>You don't have time, then you *SHOULD make time. <br /><br /> For the past week, I have been working my typical 60hrs and in between shifts traveling 200 mi to work the Danvers fire site for an additional 36 hrs. <br /><br /> In between the confusion I've found time to; Pen several emails, bid and win a few auctions (snipe), watch the Pats game, drink a little and even had relations with my bride. Oh, I've also gotten a couple of good night's sleep.<br /><br /> I'm far from being a professional binessman, but a lack of a timely response couldn't be good for sales. For Cripe's sake, everyone in the freakin Country is busy. Steve F<br /><br />*editted to reduce hostile/frustrated tone
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Steve, <br /><br />I can sympathize.<br /><br />I got home from a business dinner at 9:30pm last night--answered briefly a ton of e-mails--mostly from people on this board--and after a 17 and a half hour day yesterday I am up at 4am today to fight the stock market wars another day.<br /><br />Still I will try to contact Bill Goodwin and JP Cohen by phone and urge them to respond here.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I've been off the board for a couple of days but I thought at this time I would add a new "wrinkle" (pun intended) to this discussion. And I only posted on the Mile High thread because it was at the top of the board. While everyone is rightly concerned with the issue of altered cards, I'm not sure you are all aiming at the right source. If I had to guess, the amount of work done to improve cards by dealers is minimal. It could be done now and then, but at most it might involve ironing a wrinkle, and if done at all quite infrequently. I think the real source of all these problems lies with those trained in paper restoration, and many of them work below the radar and may be unknown to the hobby. The skill with which a good paper conservator can restore a worn card to look mint is extraordinary, and I am sure many of these frankenstein monsters are so good that they pass detection and are put in holders. I don't know how many people are doing this illicitly, but I think that is the source of all the repaired and restored cards that enter the hobby. And if I were guessing, I would say it may be close to epidemic. The same goes for autograph forgers, who neither collect nor sell publicly, but work clandestinely looking for old paper and old baseballs to do their work. With baseball cards, by the time these are put into holders, the conservator is long separated from them. He has made his money, he probably knows some sleazy dealer who will help him fence his work, and when these cards make it into the hobby, they are assimilated with all the other circulating material. Sorry, I can't name names but I think it is the paper conservator who is much more dangerous than the dealer who may or may not be pressing out a crease. It is well and good to ask all these auction houses what their ethical practices are, but they are not the primary source of the problem.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>leon for SteveVerkman</b><p>**Steve had posted this from a different computer (IP address) and didn't have an email address on his post so I was very cautious and saved and deleted it. I have not changed one word of this post and have absolutely no knowlege personally of the situation. I was ONLY being careful and I hope everyone can appreciate that. (leon) Steve's response verbatim:<br /><br />"I have to say I was very curious to see if Drent would come on the board. I can tell you that several years ago he bought a 1952 Topps #80 Wehmeier card from me in Near Mint condition for around $80. He sent the card into PSA and amazingly it came back an 8 as it was no better than a 7 when I sold the card to him (I was grading 1952 Topps cards that had shots at 8s at that time). I only know this because Drent went around bragging to people that this card sold for $12,000 or some crazy price because apparently the card is rare as an 8 and that I am (was) a fool. What he did not tell people is he trimmed, pressed or otherwise altered the card and then got it graded. Some could say I have sour grapes, but I am not a trimmer, and people can interpret this FIRST HAND information however they wish.<br /><br />Also, at the recent Boston show, Drent paid a huge price for a collection of mostly mid-grade Mantle cards. All of the key dealers at the show looked carefully at this collection and everyone was in the $13K - 14K range and at that point there was not even much money to make. Drent paid $18K for this, which shocked everyone, as the 52 Topps was a 2 at best and the 51 Bowman was only VG and Brent does not sell low and middle grade Mantle regular issue Topps and Bowman cards. Speculation, including my own, centered around a nearly perfectly centered and sharp 57 Topps Mantle with a mild rough cut. It will be interesting to see if this card ends up in an 8 or 9 holder sans rough cut.<br /><br />I just want the board members to understand that I am not one to get into gossiping and trash talking about my competitors. Please understand that these are both DIRECT EXPERIENCES I have had that make me very skeptical at a minimum as to any conclusion OTHER than that he trims and/or alters his cards, and at that far more than pressing out any surface wrinkles.<br /><br />Steve"<br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Is it just me or is all this starting to border on dangerous territory....
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I think you are a little off base here. Leon talked about an earlier conversation with Dave Forman where he said that the big issue was the microtrimming going on which is very difficult to detect. <br /><br />I think(hope) Dave will come on and give his views soon.<br /><br />Jim
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Jim, I am not sure you and Barry are saying different things, I assume some expertise is involved in microtrimming, regraining, etc. etc. and that the "conservators" of whom Barry speaks might well be doing this.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I had not heard on this regraining until recently--can you explain?
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Jim it's completely hearsay on my part but I have heard that trimming can sometimes be detected because it affects the look and feel of the borders so post-trimming other stuff is or can be done to make the borders look and feel more natural. I very well could be off base here though.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- if you feel I am off base, when Dave Forman comes on the board please direct him to my post and ask him for his comments. Regards, Barry
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Not off base--just offering a further distinction I guess.<br /><br />But I really hope Dave will come on and tell us how bdifficult it is to detect all of this stuff.<br /><br />Jim
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>to your point, I would somewhat agree. There are however, auction houses, who clearly use (and have admitted such even on this board) paper conservators on photos and advertising pieces. With that type of ongoing activity, it is not difficult to make the stretch that those same auctioneers might possibly be tempted to use those same conservators to polish up that 52 Mantle from a 6 to an 8 or other high profile marginally graded cards. <br /><br />Just the mere association between the two on one type of transaction certainly would give one pause to consider everything else they handle. In addition, if that 'conservation' is not disclosed and it materially changes the face of the item, that certainly calls into question their ethics even further...
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"I have to say I was very curious to see if Drent would come on the board. I can tell you that several years ago he bought a 1952 Topps #80 Wehmeier card from me in Near Mint condition for around $80. He sent the card into PSA and amazingly it came back an 8 as it was no better than a 7 when I sold the card to him (I was grading 1952 Topps cards that had shots at 8s at that time). I only know this because Drent went around bragging to people that this card sold for $12,000 or some crazy price because apparently the card is rare as an 8 and that I am (was) a fool. What he did not tell people is he trimmed, pressed or otherwise altered the card and then got it graded. Some could say I have sour grapes, but I am not a trimmer, and people can interpret this FIRST HAND information however they wish."<br /><br />No wonder Brian is so busy "preparing" for the upcoming auction. <br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>"No wonder Brian is so busy "preparing" for the upcoming auction."<br /><br />That is a completely irresponsible conclusion. <br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"That is a completely irresponsible conclusion."<br /><br />So Steve's comments do not concern you whatsoever?
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>I did not say that, but I am not prepared on the basis of one story by someone whose motives are unclear (and who may himself not have a stellar reputation) to jump to any conclusions about Brian Drent.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"I am not prepared on the basis of one story"<br /><br />Actually, one source with two stories. One criminal story and one disturbing story. <br /><br />So Steve V. is not a significantly sufficient source of first hand information for you to base a decision? <br /><br />How many first hand accounts of fraudulent activitiy is required before you are comfortable?
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You might want to be careful here. I have spoken to all concerned parties in the last hour. There are always 2 sides to a story. I condsider both Steve and Brian friends....take care
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>How do I know Steve is being truthful? How do I know what his motives are? And even if he is being truthful, how do I know his assessment that the card was NM was accurate? And most importantly, how does HE know Brian did anything to it? His sole basis appears to be because PSA graded it NM/MT. The difference between two opinions is enough to convict Brian? So PSA couldn't have had a different opinion of the card? Did Steve identify in any way what was different about the card? No, he said Brian "trimmed, pressed, or altered it" in some way, showing he has no knowledge whatsoever and is just making an inference based on different opinions on the grade. I could go on but you get the point.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>If I remember correctly, Marshall Fogel was the buyer of that card and I remember being at a show after he bought it and someone saying that Marshall thought it was a weak 8 but that was the final card he needed to complete the set in psa 8 or better.<br /><br />If Marshall did not pay $12K, perhaps Charlie or Don would have.<br /><br />I would also say we should wait and give Brian a chance to tell his side of the story.<br /><br />Jim
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>While I think Brian's decision not to answer the questions posed to him on board will hurt his business, I think its way to early to be convicting him of altering cards. As Peter noted, two people may have completely different opinions as to the condition of a card - who are we to say who was right without seeing the card in question. Further, even assuming it was only a NM card, without before and after pictures, how can you prove that something was done to the card as opposed to psa simply overgrading it (which seems to occur quite frequently).
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>People's reputations are at stake here. It is absolutely wrong to throw them under the bus without critically examining the supposed evidence against them, AND waiting to hear their side of the story if they wish to give it. I have no personal knowledge of Verkman's story but there is an obvious alternative explanation which does not involve any improper activity.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p>Unfortunatly i think peoples reps are already being affected. True or not right or wrong these are the people who rely on our $'s.<br /><br />I think this should be hashed out here for all to see. Than we can each make our own decision on where to spend.<br /><br />Look, If someone makes a statement regarding unethicle practice's by a dealer/auctioneer and they choose not to defend themselve's. It WILL affect whether i bid or buy from them.<br /><br />Of course each must make that decision on there own though, And that is there right which i respect.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>This is my first post over here on the message 54 boards but have viewed these boards for over a year. I know many of you here personally and respect your points of view with regards to purchasing "quality" material from dealers and the importance of doing that. Jim, as I have said before, your collection is one of the best. I appreciate your desire to inform others about this issue, however I find your policing of this issue a little out of line. Please know you should want to know who is doing alterations on cards so you can protect your investment. I don't believe it is your responsibility to send out a survey to every dealer in the U.S. and expect them to participate in a forum where they have no chance to provide the "right" answer. As you can see Doug Allen gave us his points to your questions and others kept grilling him on these issues. For the most part, every dealer does some sort of ironing to a crease and lays down a corner. This has been done before the grading fad began. The problem in this hobby is when resoration of paper, removal of glue and trimming of cards are being done and they are being passed by authentication companies. This problem would go away if PSA, GAI and SGC could detect this. The dealers who participate in this type of practice would go out of business.<br />The survey that you have sent out to all these dealers is not right in my opinion. I believe the survey should be sent to PSA and GAI letting customers like you and I know who is sending in this garbage to be graded. PSA has already taken a pretty big stance on having these dealers marked for future submissions. This may not resolve the issue completely, but it will curtail it some.<br /><br />Shane
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Shane- I am a dealer and the last time I ironed a crease out of a card was about 20 years ago. I tried it a few times, never got it quite right, and never tried it again. Please don't say all dealers iron out creases; we can agree that a percentage of dealers do it.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Jeff Prizner</b><p>Well said Shane. I'm probably in the minority here, but I agree with you 100%.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I spoke briefly to Brian just now. He called me, I did not call him, and he authorized me to post this message concerning the allegation by Steve Verkman. Brian wishes to make two points. One, the card in question was a 52 Del Crandall (also a very low pop common at least at the time), not a Wehmeier. More importantly, Brian categorically denies that he altered the card in any way prior to its being submitted to PSA.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"PSA has already taken a pretty big stance on having these dealers marked for future submissions. This may not resolve the issue completely, but it will curtail it some."<br /><br />Did I miss a statement by PSA? <br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>No wonder Brian doesn't want to come on here. He buys a raw card that the seller thought would get a 7 and he got an 8 so therefore he alters cards?!?!?! That is a ridiculous and probably slanderous claim. The ony other evidence presented was that he paid more than some dealers were willing to pay for a group of Mantles. I have walked dozens of cards around shows and taken the best offer. Am I to presume and convict that dealer who made the highest offer of intending to alter the cards because he paid more that others? It is probably exactly this type of bull**** heresay that keeps respected hobby people away from this site. It just isn't worth it.<br /><br />I have dealt with Brian Drent a number of times and echo the sentiments of his other supporters on this thread. He is one of the good guys in this hobby.<br /><br />Since this is America, how about we have a little evidence before we convict people.<br />JimB<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Jim Loewke</b><p>It only took 9 minutes to expose yourself as a hypochrite Peter!<br /><br />Re: Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues November 29 2006, 11:18 AM <br /><br />"How do I know Steve is being truthful? How do I know what his motives are? And even if he is being truthful, how do I know his assessment that the card was NM was accurate?"<br /><br />In your own written words, you attack Steve's integrity, without any proof of his lying about his own statements. Then 9 minutes later, you offer this gem below:<br /><br /><br />Re: Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues November 29 2006, 11:27 AM <br /><br />"People's reputations are at stake here. It is absolutely wrong to throw them under the bus without critically examining the supposed evidence against them, AND waiting to hear their side of the story if they wish to give it."<br /><br />To sum up, OK for you to go after people you don't like but not OK for other people to go after people you do like. I don't have a vested interest in either auctioneer for the record. Seems to me that if you want to be able to go after the auctioneer of your choice, there should be no crying when somebody goes after yours Peter. <br /><br /><br /><br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>What the hell are you talking about? I never attacked Steve's integrity. I merely pointed out to Mike that I was not prepared to jump to any conclusions on the basis of his post. The focus of my post was assuming he was telling the truth, there was another quite plausible explanation, namely that Steve and PSA simply graded the card differently.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Ok, What about the other thousands of cards Brian has handled. Can he categorically deny that he has done anything to alter any of those? More importantly why can he not come on here and speak for himself? Five minutes worth of his time could set the record straight...<br /><br />Noel Wrye
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>I left specific instructions before on how to press out a crease as well at what architectural eraser to use and how to properly apply it in prior threads. Jim would not believe who showed me how to do these things" back in the day" ( that was for you Trevor! I know you love that quote! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> )<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>Guys,<br />I am sorry that I said that all dealers flatten out a corner or press out a wrinkle. That is poor wording on my part....it is closer to 98% of the dealers. I believe it is not in the best interest of any dealer to speak on their practices here on the boards because of the way some people jump on you once you post. No matter how you explain it or how it comes out, you can never correct the situation or please everyone. All sellers want to present their cards in the best light possible. Back in the days of placing expensive cards in screw downs, if the corner is flipped up dealers/collectors did not screw the holder down with the corner going forward. They simply laid the corner down before they screwed down the holder. It is the same way today with grading companies. People are going to lay down the corner before it is encapsulated so it is presentable to a potential buyer.<br /><br />Shane
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>Soon the 9 yr olds will be posting here to get in on the level of drama going on here.For what true reason JIM are you calling out everyone to detail everything they have done in their past.<br /><br />Doug Allen answers and their are 200 posts, thought is was a simple question for him to answer: which he did, and you dont get any satisfaction and continue to abuse these people .<br /><br />You have no repsect for those who have consigned items with these honorable groups as if there is a MAJOR SCANDAL going on AND if you have no imput positive in regards to all good people invovled , you need to take your 9's & 10's and your self adorn-ment and go lay away in the manger.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I have abused noone--I have very respectfully asked a handful of people(mostly my friends) a few questions. <br /><br />This has received an overwhelmingly positive response both from the board but also e-mails.<br />At any time if the majority want me to stop the fact finding mission because the facts are too painful I will. Leon wants no new posts for awhile so I guess these posts will run their course.<br /><br />I think the results so far have been very positive and I have spelled them out on other threads.<br /><br />Jim
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Don't we have enough of these threads going? Please email or call me if you want to start another new one. I can't believe we would need to but am willing to listen....take care
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />Of course. I wouldn't do anything without your explicit approval.<br /><br />In a few days we can chat again and assess the lay of the land.<br /><br />Jim
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Actually Dan,<br /><br />I am getting a few e-mails criticizing me for not asking people what they have done in the past--the question goes--while you had the opportunity Jim why didn't you ask them if they had altered cards in the past.<br /><br />Fortunately,there are a lot of people on this board asking the tough questions.<br /><br />Jim
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>that is because you have touted certain dealers YOU think have been above this kind of thing! Guess what Jim!!!!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />This is why I asked you how long you have been collecting vintage (pre-1930 or so)cards? I had set up in the 80's next to a guy everyone here knows well first as a dealer then a grader then a dealer again who did everything you can think of to restore cards.I wonder how many you purchased from him Jim.9and no it's not Jay Berhens even though Jay did live where I do in the 80's)<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I should have known: a Behrens is at the bottom of all this. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>BcD,<br /><br />Enlighten us with your knowledge--you e-mailed the name to me at my home.<br /><br />I will not disclose what you said but if you would like to be my guest.<br /><br />Jim
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>shane</b><p> "I am a dealer and the last time I ironed a crease out of a card was about 20 years ago. I tried it a few times, never got it quite right, and never tried it again. Please don't say all dealers iron out creases; we can agree that a percentage of dealers do it."<br /><br /><br />Barry I have tried ironing out creases myself not only failing at it but sometimes screwing the card up. I guess my question to you would be if you would have been successful with getting out a crease or wrinkle, would you still be doing it today? If I knew the right process to do this I would continue to do it because I don't think this practice is wrong.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No- I wouldn't be. I don't even know why I did it then. Looking back, I shouldn't have. But so little was at stake. Cards had little value at the time.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Noel</b><p>Shane,<br /><br />There are a lot of people in this hobby who do believe that taking out a crease is not only wrong but unethical and deceptive. No matter how you spin it, it is altering. If you feel strongly about there being nothing wrong with this practice, than it should disclosed on the card being sold.<br /><br />Noel Wrye
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>You have not answered my question I have now asked you twice? How long have you been collecting, interacting, involved with pre war vintage card dealers?<br />This allows for gauging who you may be exposed to and what you may or may not know or have heard about certain dealers that have been around for some time..<br />It also helps gauge what you may know about the holdings your own collection Jim! I don't need to enlighten what people who lurk on here have known for years~ This all just may be an eye opening experience for you but come on now, do you really think people are going to expose particular dealers and what they do or have done on a public board just so appease curiosity and ignorance! There are people on here who know plenty but they can't prove what they know so it certainly is not worth the law suit to validate something you have not seemingly found out yet!<br /><br />On the other note, I sent you my phone number if you wish to discuss this with me. Sadly, when sued in this country,the defendant even if acquitted still has to pay legal fees Jim. This is not England. I will tell you I successfully sued the biggest scam dealer of them all for fraud and should have sued another for filing bankruptcy after holding a catalog auction lying about its layout and violating his own contract to allow consignors to bid on thier lots then taking in hundreds of thousands of dollars only not to pay many of the consignors. Anyway,if you want to call me please do otherwise I'm not going to post anything that can cause grief later like most who know things.<br /><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>shane</b><p>Noel,<br />I don't have a problem with it. If I knew how to do it correctly and was asked if I had laid down a corner or pushed out a wrinkle, I would without hesitation tell the potential buyer. To think that this is not being done on a regular basis is very, very naive. I am not ashamed of my position with this topic. To think that you don't have any cards in your collection that has had a corner pressed down would be rare. So in the future, are you going to email a seller on Ebay or ask a dealer if a card has had a wrinkle removed everytime you buy a card from here on out? If you run into honest guys, you may be waiting to buy something for a couple of years.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Please forgive me it was a 1952 Topps Crandall. I believe the card had a rough cut and nice but was no way sharp enough for an 8. While PSA can overgrade cards (as all the grading services can), we rarely see 1952 Topps 8s if ever that do not have four sharp corners and we all know how brutal they are with rough cuts. Again, people can interpret this however they wish, but that card was altered by Drent to get in an 8 holder and his recent purchase was suspicious. <br /><br />Also, did he not have a big Old Judge or other 19th century that was originally in a Mastro auction that SGC graded that had writing or something else removed from the back? He never made it clear whether the card was from a consignor or if he owned it?<br /><br />Steve
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Be very careful Steve to your wording on the Crandell card. Those are some pretty harsh words and very liable statement on your part.<br /><br />Shane
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Noel Wrye</b><p>It does disgust me to think of it but i am aware that it is probably done much more often than i think. That is the reason i buy graded cards but i realize that is certainly no guarantee either. I do applaud you for coming out and saying that you dont see a problem with it. I do, and i guess it is the thought that so many people do it under the radar and pass the card off as unaltered is what bothers me. I believe it is altered and should be stated as such. If that is done, i say go ahead and press/iron away any wrinkles. Disclosure and honesty is the key for me. Heck, i may still be interested in the card but certainly at a reduced rate.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Jeff Obermeyer</b><p>Steve, those may be two of the most potentially libelous posts I've ever read. <br /><br />"What he [Brian] did not tell people is he trimmed, pressed or otherwise altered the card and then got it graded. Some could say I have sour grapes, but I am not a trimmer, and people can interpret this FIRST HAND information however they wish."<br /><br />Perhaps Brian didn't tell people these things because they aren't true. Your "evidence" here consists of a card, which you mis-identified in your post, that you felt was a PSA 7 and that Brian sent into PSA and got back as an 8. As near as I can tell, that's the extent of your "FIRST HAND" information. Pretty damning - you thought it was a 7 and it came back an 8. Boy, I'm sure that's never happened to anyone before.<br /><br />You later wrote, referring to the same card: "but that card was altered by Drent to get in an 8 holder and his recent purchase was suspicious." And your evidence is what exactly? Did you see it being altered? Did you see it after it was graded? Altered how? Can you provide anything to support your allegation other than the fact that you thought the card would have gotten a 7 when you sold it raw? <br /><br />In your second stunning example you state that Brian paid about 25% more than others were offering for a lot of mid grade Mantle cards. Gee, so he paid more than other were supposedly (I sincerely doubt you know the actual amounts of all the offers made) offering. And that's evidence of what? I assume you haven't seen any of these cards since he bought them, correct? So this appears to be proof of nothing more than that Brian made (apparently) the top offer on this lot. Have you seen any of them graded? Have you seen any in an altered state fromwhen you first looked at them? No? Wow. Lock him up.<br /><br />Finally you swooped in to deliver the coup de grace: "Also, did he not have a big Old Judge or other 19th century that was originally in a Mastro auction that SGC graded that had writing or something else removed from the back? He never made it clear whether the card was from a consignor or if he owned it?"<br /><br />Let me see if I'm following you. Brian apparently had a card, which you can only identify as "a big Old Judge or other 19th century" card. I can't tell from the quote exactly what you're implying. I assume from the last sentence that it was in Mastro raw, but ended up in Brian's auction SGC slabbed with either writing or something else (you apparently aren't sure which) removed from the back. Now you acknowledge that you don't know if he owned this card or it was consigned to him... so exactly what is this evidence of? Some unidentified card was bought raw from Mastro, may or may not have had something (you're not exactly sure what) removed from the reverse by who knows who, was submitted to SGC by who knows who, and ended up in Brian's auction owned/consigned by an unknown person. Wow. I feel like I'm watching an Oliver Stone movie here. I think I know less about this situation now than before I'd ever even heard of it in the first place.<br /><br />I guess I can come to one conclusion from all of these posts. I will never deal with Steve Verkman if this is how he operates.<br /><br />Jeff <br /><br /><br /><br />
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Or I think it does anyhow, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.<br /><br />I concur with the observation above by Jeff. I have no way of knowing the truth here, but as an observer trying to form a judgment it does not lend credibility to the accuser's story when (1) he gets a CRITICAL piece of information wrong, to wit the identity of the card in question, and (2) he provides no before and after evidence to support his claim. At the moment, now that he seems to have corrected his misidentification of the card, all we have to go on is the accuser's statement that based on his experience (was he ever a PSA dealer? my understanding is that he principally deals in raw off grade cards, but perhaps that is wrong), the card would not have been graded an 8 absent it being altered. That opinion, by itself, does not seem sufficient to me given the subjectivity inherent in grading, as I posted before.<br /><br />Now to add to my issues, in his first post the accuser stated that the card in his opinion must have been trimmed, pressed, or altered in some way. That seemed quite vague and did not suggest any particular flaw with the card. Now, in the second post, we are told the reason the accuser did not think it would grade 8 is the rough cut. Does one press out a rough cut? I would hope not. So if the issue was the rough cut all along, why initially post that the card was trimmed, pressed, or altered in some way, why not just say it was trimmed? Perhaps the accuser had a further recovery of memory?<br /><br />Anyhow, to summarize, I have no idea of what the truth is, and I am NOT saying the accuser is not right, but as someone who can only go by what is posted, I see some question marks in the evidence that has been presented to date in support of a highly serious accusation affecting a man's reputation. Perhaps some clarification will be forthcoming.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Guess Steve V doesn't. If he cannot recall which cards are involved or other pertinent information, should he really be running his mouth about situations he has not really demonstrated knowing much about? He has made statements which he purports are factual and drawn serious conclusions about Drent's practices. I can only assume, by the irresponsible nature of his posts, that he is judgment proof, since his statements seem slanderous and actionable. Even if his recounting of the experiences were accurate, he has no proof. None at all. But I guess that is not important. <br /><br />Steve made statements about cards Drent bought and what he felt they should grade. Steve has enough trouble assigning accurate and truthful grades to cards he sells. There have been many threads on here about collectors who feel he is not at all accurate in his assessments. One could easily conclude from those threads and his website that he usually disregards the back of the card and grades solely on the front. I am not sure that someone like that is truly qualified to determine whether a card is going to grade NM or NM-MT by any grading company. Also what makes Steve an expert in knowing what cards will grade by third party grading companies? Has Steve submitted more than 200 cards in his lifetime? Steve sells mainly ungraded low grade material.<br /><br />Steve should take his personal agenda with Drent someplace else. Maybe he can reprint his stories in his next auction catalog, as they will fit in nicely with his other garbage.<br /><br />Greg
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I find myself in total aggreement with Greg's post. Why is not more made of raw card dealers who intentionally overgrade their cards in order to create margin?<br /><br />Charlie
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>As opposed to dealers who alter cards to increase their margin?
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>touche, Jeff.
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Any dealer that alters cards to increase margin is doing something wrong as well. But is Mastro one of those dealers because they do things that the grading services won't condem? IMHO, Mastronet is not a card doctoring orginization based upon the information they have provided. <br /><br />Even Barry concedes that he erases pencil markings. He seems to be like Gandi on this board.<br /><br />Charlie
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Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Charlie, if Barry is Ghandi then you are Jesus on the cross. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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