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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I just amended the board rules concerning the Buy/Sell/Trade areas. I have now put in writing that I don't want to see interference over there. It's not right. Benign comments can be ok (and sometimes can be entertaining) so I don't want to say "no comments" whatsoever. Thanks for your understanding....this is the amendment:<br /><br />"In the B/S/T area there should be no interference in the posts by 3rd parties...this includes, but is not limited to, talking about what someone paid for something. Only persons involved in the transaction should be posting but benign comments can be ok. If you don't know the difference then don't post." <br />

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>I will hire Hal to sue you! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I would have thought some things in life didn't need to even be mentioned, just known. oh well, another day another dollar. dropped as far as i'm concerned.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>is the least common of the senses....

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Listen, runt, it ain't me this time, so get off my case. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Besides, Hal isn't licensed to practice in CA and is the king of torts, not business law.

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Adam,<br />Don't engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!<br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>I am no runt! I am as big as your stomach! Now pipe done Mr. slouchy shoulders or I will have to kick your ass next time I see you and let Greg drag you outside to defecate on your face! LOL Dude, your too easy after all the abrasive crap you dribble from you keyboard all day on here! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Adam ,you amend my classified ads all the time and violate Halacha by posting this! And come on,I would much rather be 5'9 and look like me that a guy who looks 55 and is younger than me!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>Perhaps there should be a board rule that says something like this:<br /><br />Do not buy a card on ebay, ask the board how much it's worth, and then proceed to sell it the next week for a significant amount more.<br /><br />That should be common sense as well.<br /><br />Robert

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I bought the card out of interest and curiousity, I asked the board if it was a decent buy at that price (not hey whats this worth), by the time I posted that I had two inquiries as to if I would sell the card. I have had a total of nine as of now. Not that its any of your business, but I have an offer i'm holding on til the end of the week when a gentlemen said he would have the funds for the card at the price I said I would sell it to him, in the meantime he said go ahead and shop it around and if you can get a few more dollars for it go for it, he'd understand. I can't believe i'm even having to explain this. What a bunch of damn babies a select few on here are. I could give a flying rat's ass what you buy or sell a card for and I could also give a flying rat's ass your opinion on what I buy or sell one for. Have a great day.

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Posted By: <b>Bill K</b><p>Well said Dave, it's nobody's business but your own. Some people aren't happy unless they're bitching.<br /><br />Bill<br><br>My personal collection - <a href="http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/</a>

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I'll of course follow the new rule, but...<br /><br />Is the point of the new rule that the price a card just sold for on eBay is not indicative of fair market value, or that the more informed that buyers are made, the lower flippers' margins and therefore flippers need this protection?

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Wow Dave. What an unfortunate post your last one was. Robert Adesso has been around a long time and is fairly highly regarded on the board, as far as I can tell. You've not been around that long, and actually I've enjoyed most of your posts. But flying off the handle at RA like that was over the top.<br /><br />I don't believe he said anything about what you bought or sold the card for. He may not give a flying rat's ass what you bought it for, or what you sell it for. It appears his comment was directed at the quick progression from ebay to Main Forum on price to BST. <br /><br />And at that, I can't even say it was directed at you. It was a generic comment about a practice that comes close to violating board rules about using the main board to publicize a card you are about to sell. I don't think that's why you posted the main board thread to begin with, but with the way it ended up some could call it close to the edge of policy. People that have been around a lot longer than you on this board have been called out for getting too close to the same edge of main-board-question-to-BST-sales-offer line that starts to look like selling on the main board.<br /><br />Robert was perfectly correct to point this out, and again made no comment or judgment as to what you bought it for or what you sell it for. <br /><br />So carry on not giving flying rat's asses about what long-time board members think of you or your practices. Excellent plan.<br /><br />Joann Kline<br /><br />(edited to add last name to possibly inflammatory post - per board rules.)<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The point is so you aren't meddling in other peoples business. If you got between a dealer and a buyer at a show I don't believe it would be looked on favorably....the BST is no different, imo. I hope this clarifies that for you...

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Isn't it time for you to go back to the village gates to poke at the ground with a sharp stick, or are you still on your lunch? <br /><br />Oh. I forgot: <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> That makes it all ok, right? <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>IF Robert were not talking about me, then I apologize. I found it hard to believe his post was about anything else however. I have tried to totally respect the board and members since i've been here. I try to add (what little) knowledge I actually have regarding the hobby. I do not believe that just because someone has been here forever and I haven't that I should not be allowed to react to a post regarding me (as I look at it again and again, there is nobody recently that he could be talkign about but me). I'm sure Robert is vastly superior in his knowledge of cards and as well as experiences with cards and people trying to take advantage of a system. Look, I don't know enough about mello-mints, or 99% of any other pre-war card to purposely go out and buy the card with the intentions of selling it a day later. Now, have I ever bought a card with the intention of selling it for a profit? YES. I have even spoken to Leon about this a few weeks back (sorry to drag your name into this Leon). My situation does not allow me to just buy cards for the purposes of putting them in a quiet corner of my house and let them be. Generally, my practice has been to be T206's raw, get them graded and yes, stick them back on ebay to keep the habit up. That may sound bad, however i'm actually not sitting here trying to make bucketloads of money on cards. I am trying to keep the trend going for myself. I would love to buy cards and never have to sell them. I'm 30 years old, married with a daughter a year old. My "extra cash funds" for the most part go towards formula and diapers. I "convinced" my wife a few months ago to let me take a single hundred dollar bill, stick it in paypal and see what fun I could have with it by buying vintage cards (which I love), getting them graded, taking pictures of each of the cards graded for a scrapbook, and sticking them back on ebay to do it again. I have never been out for the purpose of trying to use the B/S/T to turn profits to the point I could quit work. The reality is that every card I buy is for sale as bad as that sounds to some on here, if they weren't well then I'd have been done with the first $100 dollars I had and would have one T206 common PSA 4 to show for it. Even though I enjoy the rarity of the McGraw mello-mint, I'm not stupid. Yes, I genuinally had questions concerning it, and thought what better place to ask those questions then the board. In hindsight, I should have emailed Leon directly and asked him for his more educated views. But, what happened, happened, and when I get emails right away asking me to sell it for more than I bought it, if your honestly telling me in the same situation that you wouldn't then your a better human than I am I guess. I'm not going to apologize for this, I don't feel i'm in the wrong, I also don't feel i'm in the wrong for sticking up for myself. However in the best interest of all involved, I'll refrain from ever posting a picture or asking a question on the main board about a card that I own, if I have questions like that I have a couple people on here that i'll email directly in private to avoid further soap operas.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Dave- you don't need to explain why you buy cards raw, have them graded, and sell them for a profit. Everybody does it and it is fine. Only a few people have the wherewithal to never have to sell anything. Most people buy and sell regularly as part of their participation in the hobby.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I agree with Leon's rule. If it's none of your business, it's none of your business. I know of no one on this board who doesn't want or try to sell a card for more than he paid. I know of no one who consigns a collection to Mastro with the orders that if the price gets to $1,000 stop bidding because more than $1,000 would be greedy.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Drum</b><p>This is crazy. What business is it of anyone? Haven't we just had this discussion in the past month as it related to so-called "Flippers?" As long as a seller or potential seller is observing proper board decorum - so what. Leon, maybe you should start a BST Page specifically for sellers who want to sell their cards for less than they paid. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>That's funny as sh**

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Posted By: <b>dd</b><p>He who has not profited from a flip.......

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Without commenting on whether your response to Robert was in line or not, as Barry says, you need not apologize for flipping cards. Everyone does it. If you dont feel comfortable asking questions about cards that you might sell to the board, feel free to email me. I may not have the answer (and for rarer issues, probably wont) but I will help if I can.<br /><br />Mark,<br /><br />You asked: <br /><br />"Is the point of the new rule that the price a card just sold for on eBay is not indicative of fair market value, or that the more informed that buyers are made, the lower flippers' margins and therefore flippers need this protection?"<br /><br />Are you serious? While ebay is often indicitive of fair market value, it is also possible to get deals on ebay and elsewhere. Regardless, isnt it the buyer's responsibility to inform themselves before they make a purchase and decide for themselves how much the card is worth to them without interference? Im sure we have all overpaid for cards if we wanted or needed them badly enough, so why should someone selling be hammered or have to defend him/herself for listing a card at a price that is higher than they paid or higher than what others believe the card to be worth?

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>just for perspective, my original post asking about if it was a good deal or not i got on the card, i honestly thought it WAS NOT a good deal. i thought I had overbid on it, and actually had a high bid of $300 on the card. I let myself get caught up in it being moreso a rare card that I'd like to have in my hands then anything else. As I stated earlier, I had $100 on this to start, and when that card went Saturday on ebay, I had $1100 burning a whole in paypal and it was too tempting not to bid on that card. My intentions were to get the card in my hand, get a little info about the card on here, get my typical pictures for my scrapbook, and put it away for a few months, and then stick it back on ebay and hope to get what I bought it for. That was it. Anyway thanks JK for the words.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>and don't feel bashful about posting your questions and responses. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone. There are lots of very nice, extremely knowledgeable people here who welcome your input and participation. We have all been in your position where a quick flip for a nice % of profit has been tempting, so don't sweat it.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I see nothing wrong with what Dave did here, and think that what happened over on the B/S/T about this card was out of line. I'd hate to think that if I got a great deal on a card, that precluded me from selling it for what the market would bear. If Dave is asking for too much money for the card, then it won't sell at his asking price. With so many others using the B/S/T to make profits and flip cards for other purchases, I don't think there should be separate rules just for Dave.<br /><br />So I agree that people should keep their editorializing off the B/S/T unless there's some value to add.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>From a dealer's/seller's standpoing, it's best not to divulge what you paid. While buyers assume the seller is profiting or trying to profit, most buyers don't want to know how much the seller profits. Buyers say they want to know what the seller paid, but most really don't. That they paid a fair price is what most collectors want to know. That they seller bought the $500 card for $5 at a flea market on Tuesday is information many buyers would rather live without.<br /><br />I remember when my parents visited and my mom noticed piece of baseball memorabilia which I probably paid a few hundred for.<br /> She said, "How much did you pay for that?"<br /> "Do you really want to know how much I paid?," I said.<br /> "No," she said after mulling it over. "Would you have told me if I said Yes?"<br /> "No," I said.<br /><br />Moral of the story: When mom ask you how much you paid for a baseball card, it's a rhetorical quesion: meaning, she isn't anticipating the answer in return.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Thanks for the clarification. I guess BST is now oriented towards dealers/flippers rather than buyers or collectors selling off dupes. The new rule seems intended to protect the increasing number of dealers whose business model is to buy cards on ebay and mark them up on BST. They'll no doubt prosper under the new rule in the short run since some naive buyers will miss the ebay auctions and not realize how much they are overpaying for the cards. Of course most of these buyers are also board members.<br /><br />In the long run, I suspect making BST too dealer-oriented, like card shows, might drive some buyers away. I rarely attend card shows because prices are regularly marked up at 150%-200% of ebay.

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I didn't mention it, but that should be the tell-tale sign that I wasn't trying to shop the card to begin with. I didn't have any idea that by saying was this card a good buy at $228, that I'd be getting inquires about selling it and offers for much over that. If my intentions to begin with were to sell the card obviously I wouldnt have mentioned what I paid for it since the only people that would have then known would have been one or two board members bidding or watching the card.

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />Honestly, when was the BST ever about trading dupes? The two categories I've seen on the BST are flippers/dealers and those who sell of cards to fund other purchases. I would give a rough estimate of 60/40 of flippers to dealers. As the board gets more exposure it's a natural progression of how business is run. Dave shouldn't have to explain himself, the auction was poorly worded and NOWHERE was E105 or Mello Mint found in the title. I also bid on that card and planned on doing the same thing. Good work Dave and wish you well with the card.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>to see the card on ebay and get a great deal on it but fact is we can't find ALL the auctions we want to and like it or not, sometimes I'm willing to pay a little more for a card off BST that I missed on ebay. My only goal isn't to flip a card but if you buy something and the $$'s are there it's sometimes difficult to not take them if you have other things you could do with them and you don't have unlimited funds like 5-6 people on this board.<br /><br />Sometimes the flips backfire too! I bought (2) E94 overprints at the National 4-5 years ago and flipped them to Brockelman for about 400% profit only to find out that 1 of the 2 hadn't been seen in a LONG time or never before. Think it's residing in the luckeycards HOF right now......<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>This thread is kind of heading in a direction that I have touched on many times before, and that is the distinction between collectors using the BST to buy, sell, and trade, versus the dealer who is tired of paying overhead and sees the BST as a free ride. I have discussed this with Leon many times and while I respect his opinion that there really is no distinction, perhaps in the future the BST will need some more fine tuning. I don't have an answer regarding what is the appropriate number of transactions before one is deemed a freeloader, but I do think it is a topic worth discussing.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>If I remember correctly, the BST page actually came about as a result of a thread posted on the "old main board" once a month where collectors would post their wantlists, and what they had to trade or sell. <br /><br />The "new" BST is used much more by dealers, flippers etc than the old wantlist page ever was. This isnt necessarily a bad thing, but I for one do kind of miss the days when it was(at least superficially) about filling collector needs, and not focused so much on profit margin for non-collectors.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Mostly, what I see on b/s/t are cards being sold by participants of the forum - even some of the dealers who routinely use b/s/t participate and add value to the main forum. However, like everything in life, there are a few exceptions. <br /><br />Regardless, I just fail to see how the price paid for a card matters regardless of what someone is trying to sell it for.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>I actually would love to see real inventory from dealers and flippers. Instead, it seems the BST is dominated by items that flippers won on ebay only a few days earlier. (This is not directed at Dave, but rather BST flippers in general.) <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>I'm with Dave on this one. Why is it anyone’s business what he paid for it? <br />If you think it's too high don't buy it. <br />Simple.<br />I do the exact same thing Dave does, I buy raw cards on eBay have them graded and try to make a profit. Sometimes it works other times...well I usually hope it works <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />I bought a T206 Ty Cobb green portrait a few weeks ago for $1,125(with a few people wondering about it being high), had it graded and put it up on dump day with a BIN and six hours later POOF! It's gone. I really wanted to keep the card but it is sometimes hard to justify to my wife that my hobby is worth it. <br />I started my collection selling all my shiny cards and used that money to bankroll purchases to make money to buy the cards I want. It’s nice to know that I have a nice little box with cards I enjoy for virtually nothing (except when I think how much I spent on all the shiny crap). <br /><br />Oh yea, I like Jeff’s idea!<br /><br />Sean BH<br /><br />Edited to add - I usually exclusively sell my cards on eBay. Since some of my purchases are quick to turn around I fear some backlash about buying it on eBay and putting it up on the BST, but I do list my auctions in the appropriate category to advertise them.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I had an idea and sure enough Josh just touched on it. It's really more theoretical than practical: Leon has a rule regarding OT topics that we all have pretty much accepted, and that is regular posters get much more leeway with them than newbies. Maybe the same could be applied to the BST. If you are a regular participant in discussions and share knowledge with the board, you get more leeway than if you never participate except to sell cards. I know this is almost impossible to police, but I have a plan: everyone who participates from here on in will need to be attached to an electrode, and a few times a day Leon will check to see if anybody is abusing the system. If they are, he will press a button and the abuser will then get a mild electric shock! Don't laugh, it just might work.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Drum</b><p>I really don't notice that much activity on the BST section from people that don't regularly contribute to the main forum in some fashion. Maybe I just don't notice. I post regularly, I'm not sure I have much "knowledge base" to add but I usually have an opinion about a thing or two. I recently have started listing a few things on the BST. I for one, am moving duplicates from sets where I have upgraded or in the rare instance abandoned the hope of completion. When I list them and price them, I don't really consider what I paid but what I thnk the card is realistically worth. Experience has shown me in some instances I am wrong and hence the prices have been lowered or the cards have not sold. At the end of the day, I am open to fair offers but it has nothing to do with what I paid for it.<br /><br />Leon, is there a way to tell what % of BST posters have never posted on the main forum? And by the way, thanks for all you do to make the forum a great place to post in both sections.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>With my upkeep of the board my educated guess is 95% or more of the BST participants do chime in on the board. It's an extremely high percentage...

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />I have no problem with making money on the card - I've done it myself. That's not what the post was about. It was only about the tone of the response to someone mentioning the fine line of what goes on on the main board versus BST. No doubt you didn't post with the intent to sell, but others have in the past (posted a "question" on the main board, with scans, when they plan on putting it on BST within a day or so) and it raises the general sensitivity to the practice. <br /><br />As to making money on cards - have at it. Most do, I try, and that's how you fund other purchases. I don't think that was the issue in this thread or that post.<br /><br />J

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Leon, what if (hypothetically) one had information that there was a question about whether the card had been altered? For example, if someone had posted the GAI 3 Lajoie on the BST and someone else knew or was pretty sure it was the same card that had been in a PSA 1 with serious creases?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Tough call. If it's in a GAI holder, or any of the big 4 graders holders, then really they are responsible. But if someone had first hand knowledge it was altered I am not sure. What do you think? Some of these are really difficult calls....and I really have said I don't want to police over in the BST but feel the new rule is appropriate. Probably not perfect but I have yet to see 1 single issue, concerning board policy, that 100% agree on. Sometimes we sacrifice a little personal freedom for the good of the community....<br /><br />Barry- if we institute shock punishment you are the first trial <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- I'm shocked you would say that.

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>Don't take it personally Dave<br />November 1 2006, 3:22 PM <br /><br />and don't feel bashful about posting your questions and responses. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone. There are lots of very nice, extremely knowledgeable people here who welcome your input and participation. We have all been in your position where a quick flip for a nice % of profit has been tempting, so don't sweat it.<br /> <br /><br />This may be the most correct thing you have ever posted-anywhere!<br /><br /><br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>barry...i already have a scat mat...for my cat!<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I thought I would be he first candidate for shock treatment<br /><br />Jay- Give me, give me shock treatment (The Ramones)<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>For the original shock treatment, they shaved the patient's head and pour on cold water (Read Nicolai Gogol's 'Diary of a Madman').<br /><br />If you read Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness (basis for the movie 'Apocolypse Now') notice that someone measures the narrator's head before he goes into the jungle. The book doesn't explain why this was done, but, at the time, a change in head size and shape was considered indication that someone had gone insane. Presumably, they intended to remeasure the narrator's head when he returned.

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />Are you sure? How can you ever forget this post? I have this one bookmarked. So much fun strolling down memory lane...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1126281334/last-1126310218/Vaya+con+dios" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1126281334/last-1126310218/Vaya+con+dios</a>

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I think in the context of a B/S/T, which is just a post on a non-commercial (so far) internet chatboard after all, you don't have an unfettered right to an "interference free" sale and that it absolutely should be fair game if people honestly post information that other readers would want to know about the card.

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>I am drinking heavily tonight! Trying to expand my girth so I am no longer a runt! I forgot that post! <br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Drum</b><p>When you engage in an act of commerce, do you expect to be told what a seller/retailer paid for the item? Sure it is information we may all "want" to know, is it a reasonable expectation?

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I could care less what someone paid, personally. I was referring in my hypothetical to information that the card might be altered, etc.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>After further consideration, and before I read your latest post, my thought on your question is this. I would not think it's interference for someone to come forward with information about a bad deal (in this case a bad card in a holder). HOWEVER, if one is to come forward then they must help the seller, with their knowledge, to get resolution from the grading company. Even if they don't win they must help. If they won't do that then they shouldn't say anthing. Sort of like testifying but not under oath? Doesn't hold much weight.....I know I am swimming with sharks anytime I talk about law, with absolutely no education...but that's how I see it.... (Somewhat the same as anonymity but every case is different)...

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>It would be really lame in my opinion if someone posted information that a card was suspect then won it (or bought it at a reduced price) himself or herself.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>by your apparent devotion to me. Between the unprovoked emails (your last one led to your being placed on my spam list, BTW, so no need to send more), the way you single me out from everyone else in your most provocative posts, and the countless hours you obviously spend tracking my posts and going out of your way drafting your little responses, I must have assumed a great deal of importance to you. As the old ad asked, is it love or obsession? Either way, I'm already spoken for.

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Wartslob,<br /><br />I hope you found the email helpful. Since I cannot email you again I will provide you with a link here. <a href="http://www.webmd.com/hw/anxiety_panic_disorders/ty3459.asp" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.webmd.com/hw/anxiety_panic_disorders/ty3459.asp</a> And if you ever get done eating you may want to go back and take a look at your posts about me. It seems that you are the one who has demonstrated a very unhealthy attraction to me. You really should seek treatment from a qualified psychiatrist. I have not singled you out however there are not many people I have met, until you, who have left me as nauseated and feeling in need of a shower. <br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Uh-oh, another fight is brewing. Hasn't the board gotten a little testy lately? Getting back on topic, I think when a third party interferes with a sale nothing good can come from it. It's done with the intention of undermining it in some way. Obviously, if you can protect someone from buying an altered card that you know something about, that would not be considered interfering. But you better be absolutely certain.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Barry, I think we come out the same place, but I would definitely call that interfering, just with good intentions. If it disrupts the sale, isn't the result to the seller the same?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Is the interference done in good faith to help someone or is it done just to instigate trouble? That is the difference.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>It's funny to me how many people say it makes absolutely no difference how much a seller paid for a card yet support a new rule intended to keep potential buyers from finding this information out.<br /><br />It's also ironic that one of the main topics on the main board is ongoing and recently closed ebay auctions - why isn't anyone concerned with interfering with those auctions?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Of course it's interfering. That's obvious...but it's interfering for a good reason..Let's keep it in context. I wouldn't want to make the rule any more formal than it is....heck, I'll bet one of you lawyers could charge about 50 hours to write that one <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> .....

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>How about factual mistakes and outright lying? <br /><br />Anyone mind if I say I have $500 into this card when I bought it for $300 last week. It's the buyer's job to figure determine value and third parties should not interfere, right? <br /><br />Everyone cool if I say the card I'm selling is the highest graded when PSA has actually graded two higher? <br /><br />Any objection to my selling a CDV of a common player and professing it's Dummy Hoy? Heck, this can happen (and has) as an honest mitake. Caveat emptor?

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Ok, why in the world are you so concerned about this Mark? You never sell a thing on bst, you rarely if ever post on the forum anymore, and as far as I can tell, never respond to any listing on bst.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p><br />BTW, I seem to recall another topic being discussed on this thread before I left work that no long appears to be present - why the deletions?

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Methinks we are on one of them slippery slopes lol, Mark.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I haven't deleted anything in this thread...that I remember..(it's been a long day and I wouldn't want to say I didn't when I did...but don't think I did)..there have been no anonymous posts....

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>My bad - It was in another thread that I just found - so much flaming going on lately its hard to keep track.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Josh, I have actually purchased thousands of dollars of cards on BST this year, I just don't mark them with "email sent" like I guess you do. Last week, I sold $725 of cards on BST. Thanks for your concern.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Boy Leon when you start a thread, it gets a lot of action. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br><br>Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't really think it's that slippery unless there are some commercial laws I don't know (which would include 98% of them)...Since we are here I cut and pasted Mark's response so I could answer it....This is kind of fun....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />How about factual mistakes and outright lying? <br /><br />*if you knew for a fact someone was committing fraud lying( sic) then that, imo, wouldn't be against the interference rule...similar to the altered card ruling<br /><br />Anyone mind if I say I have $500 into this card when I bought it for $300 last week. It's the buyer's job to figure determine value and third parties should not interfere, right?<br /><br />*see above response <br /><br />Everyone cool if I say the card I'm selling is the highest graded when PSA has actually graded two higher? <br /><br />*see above response<br /><br />Any objection to my selling a CDV of a common player and professing it's Dummy Hoy? Heck, this can happen (and has) as an honest mitake. Caveat emptor?<br /><br />*buying on someone's "professing" is caveat emptor...and as stated if someone knows for a fact it's not Hoy then they should come forward...but only if sure..<br /><br />next volley.....<br /><br />edited grammar and some spelling but still poor...<br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>A lot of people on this Board are masters of their own domain. Maybe something needs to change about that?

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>What if I know for a fact the card was bumped from a 4 to a 5 holder? Is that providing material information or is it improper interference?

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Wow, Im very impressed Mark. I guess you are very fortunate that no one has tried to interfere with any of your transactions. I asked a simple question above that you have yet to answer (as far as I can tell). That is, why should someone be allowed to interfere with an above-board listing (ie no lying, altered cards, etc) simply because he/she believes that the asking price is too high? As far as saying something like "I have 500 in the card" that is nothing more than puffery and if someone is stupid enough to do it right after their auction ended, their rep will get around. Though frankly, to me, something like that is pretty harmless - if someone told me that they had 500 in a card (but really had 200) and they were selling the card for 550 - the amount they had in it really wouldnt factor into my decision. I would buy it if the price was reasonable and walk away if it wasnt. Its really no different than if that same person said despite it only costing me 250, I wont go a cent lower than $500.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Peter, <br /><br />IMO, a card bumping from a 4 to a 5 is a fairly common occurance and not necessarily due to alteration. I would almost argue that there is a 1 grade deviation in every card depending on who looks at it and when. Now if you had a card bump from a 5 to an 8 and now the borders look thiner and the corners sharper, that is a different issue altogether.<br /><br />Edited twice to expand on my response.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I would want to know if a card had been bumped a grade, even though in the final analysis I might decide I didn't care. Although I can see going either way on this one. I do think however that it would be hard to write hard and fast rules on this subject. For the same reason legislatures write vague laws and leave their interpretation to the courts.

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>"Puffery" is a seller's expression of opinion like it's a "really good card." It's legal. Saying one paid $500 when he paid something less is a factual misrepresentation, and is not puffery. If a trier of fact determines that such a misrepresenation is material, then it becomes fraud (illegal). Hope that helps.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Saying you have 500 in a card when you dont does not change anything about the card itself and certainly doesnt misrepresent a material fact about the card (ie its real, its not trimmed, etc) and is far closer to puffery or salesmanship than a material misrepresentation. <br /><br />I'd certainly hate to be a car salesman in california if you were a litigator - lord knows they constantly provide misinformation regarding the price they paid for a car on the lot. I mean everyone knows sticker prices are nothing but a sham, but for the most part, so are invoice prices. When a dealer tells you he cant go below invoice, but in fact he can because he's got factory holdbacks and other incentives, is he committing fraud or is he being a salesman?<br /><br />For that matter, when you tell the IRS that your client cant pay a dime more than 50k of the 75k in back taxes that he owes, but you can really go up to 60k to settle the matter, have you committed fraud (if this doesnt work with a tax example, just pretend its any old legal dispute)?

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Josh K, puffery is "an expression of opinion by seller not made as a representation of fact." That's straight from my Black's Law Dictionary. Purchase price is a factual statement, the opposite of puffery, not "close to puffery."<br /><br />I don't know if you really don't understand, but the reason a recent purchase price could easily be "material" is that it often represents what a buyer can expect to receive if the card were sold on the open market. For many collectors, cards are quasi-investments meaning that, while they may really like a rare card, they also might be concerned about getting a fair price. These types of buyers could easily find it material to learn they are paying significantly more than the card sold for the week before on ebay. I'd even go so far as to say that nearly every court in the country would agree a seller's statement that he has $500 into a card when in fact he bought it last week on ebay for $300 to be fraud.<br /><br />I am surprised that you consider lying about purchase price to be acceptable "salemanship."

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Posted By: <b>t206King</b><p>Listen, i meant that a card worth what u paid. end of story. if you pay 200 for a card and try to charge 400 or 500 for a card when ppl on the BST state its worth just alittle more or less than 200, why do ppl get bent out of shape. merely trying to help the buyer.....

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Exactly....trying to help the buyer on something you know nothing about. I'm sorry, I won't jump to that conclusion. Do you T206King know about mello-mints to the point of their value?? Since I looked it up on an auction site, and found that there has been no recorded auctions for McGraw, I'm wondering what makes you seem to know what the correct ballpark is for the card??? There was one Matty in a SGC10 that went for right at $800 bucks. There was one common Schlei that went in a SGC20 that went for $255. Other than that for the most part, the only E105's sold have been high end, in the thousands of dollars. However, you King, have the knowledge to say that the McGraw, a HOFer, is a $200 or so....card. That the McGraw if put in an SGC10, which it would be, would bring similar auction prices that the common player Schlei has brought....amazing.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Bland</b><p>You found all this out and still had to make a post on the main board asking if you had paid too much?

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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I found out all this today!!!!! my god. Point is, I didnt know at the time. I also didnt express my opinion on someone's thread on the B/S/T without a bit of knowledge about the subject at hand. Had a wanted to sell the damn card to begin with, I wouldnt have said what I paid for it. King isn't even an expert on the subject. He said himself he wrote that because "someone" on the board said it was a $200 card. I find this so freaking ridicilious that he can express his opinion on the B/S/T thread.. opinion.