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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Mike P</b><p>Just when you thought it had gone away for a while...<br /><br />Michael O'Keeffe of the New York Daily News not only regurgitates last week's bad news story, but conflates it with the fiction that anybody -- besides Cobb, Edwards, and auctioneer Connelly -- cares who's selling a bogus Honus.<br /><br />O'Keeffe's article, "Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible," is here (scroll down):<br /><a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/444941p-374723c.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/444941p-374723c.html</a><br /><br />He says, in part:<br /><br />"On Network 54, an Internet vintage card forum, the reaction was mixed. Some collectors were angry that Cobb and Edwards weren't dismissed as crooks.<br /><br />Others agreed that Cobb and Edwards may be on to something when they say prejudice has played a role in the debate over their card."<br /><br />Of course, all the folks who are quoted as thinking the card is a fake ARE white.<br /><br />Cincinnati sports memorabilia dealer Wolter inspected the card and told Cobb & Edwards it wasn't genuine eight or nine years ago, then again Tuesday on Real Sports.<br /><br />Joe Orlando of PSA finally broke his long careful silence on Real Sports and pointed out the crucial differences in the typography under the image.<br /><br />And then there's NY broker Mike "Mango" Mangaserian (sp), whom O'Keeffe played up in an earlier column. Mike inspected the card in Manhattan and thought it might be okay. He handled it in Binghamton before the auction and said the paper felt wrong. He didn't bid for his client.<br /><br />Of course, just about everybody here on VBC is white, too.<br /><br />Obviously, a racial conspiracy!<br /><br />The Cobb/Edwards card has been called controversial. Nonsense. The only question is how Cobb and Edwards manage to keep their "story" alive in the national media.<br><br>The time is always right to do what is right.<br />-- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I thought this board was filled with rich Asians from the West Coast?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>I posted before the auction even ended that 2 things were going to happen; 1) the race card was going to be played and 2) somebody was going to get sued.<br /><br />Well, the first thing has happened. Now I am just waiting to see who gets sued.....This whole story is just pathetic and shows why America is going downhill.<br /><br />Oh and Jay, as far as your comment, two Wongs don't make a right--trying to sell a fake Wagner as an original and then saying race had something to do with it not selling.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>we had a collector on this forum, who is black ,say the card is fake!
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>Well, as a one-armed, dyslexic, midget, gay <b>black</b> man, I think it is fake as well. There . . . now they can quote a black man as well.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Well, seems our board does get a little attention. I like this quote from the article:<br /><br />"Others agreed that Cobb and Edwards may be on to something when they say prejudice has played a role in the debate over their card."<br /><br /><br />This was pertaining to what we said on the board, I believe. Is this media contortionism at it's best? I would like O'keefe to come onto this board, or anyone, and show one instance that there was anything racial going on, besides the crooks that came onto this board and were crying the racial card.... Those guys could have been albino's from NH and the card would still be a worthless fake. They are scammers that have told the lie so much that now they believe it and if that doesn't work then it must be because they are black that the card is fake. That's just stupid. regards<br /><br />
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Id like to know who here said they might be on to something when they said race may play a factor? I think we all agree that the only factor on whether the card is real or not is the fact we all know its fake just by looking at it in scans.Its an obvious fake.<br /><br /> Someone is reading this board obviously so here it goes. Take the card in question and compare it to any real known t206. Comapre the borders,the printing on the card and realize it isnt the same.Go to the hall of fame, where there is a real Wagner on display(that no one has ever questioned the authenticity of ever) and compare theirs to it.Take it to any expert you want at a card show and ask them.If its real do you think a company such as Mastro would turn down the card for their auction when it would not only make them alot of money but draw a huge amount of attention towards their auction.Go to any legit auction run by card experts who actually sell cards and ask them if they want to have a card which could make them tens of thousands of dollars and get them a large amount of exposure and when they say yes,show them that card and look at their reaction. People dont see black when they sell cards for someone, they see green<br /><br /> If they think 100's of legit dealers are all conspiring to not make money eventho alot of them could use it,and numerous buyers with money to spare who would love to buy a Wagner, are all holding out for another one because the sellers are black, then they are crazy and dont want to hear the truth.The other problem with that thinking is that theyre saying theres no black dealers in the industry(which i know is obviously false just from going to shows) and theres no black buyers who can afford the card? which again is another false statement because we know there is,ask Dmitri Young for help and see what he says,he spends more on cards per year then most of us will in our lifetimes.<br /><br /> No one at our little board is trying to keep a new Wagner card out of the collecting community.If someone finds a new Wagner thats real we all want to know about it no matter who the new owner of the card is.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>"all the folks who are quoted as thinking the card is a fake ARE white."<br /><br />Interesting.<br /><br />I posted in that thread, and said that I thought the card was fake.<br /><br />I must have been out the day the Daily News fact-checker called my house to confirm my ethnic origin. <br /><br />-Al
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>They had their 15 minutes of fame. I wish they would take their card, burn it and go back to selling refurbished cell phones and horny goat weed. <br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Wow. I really don't remember anyone in any thread saying that race was a factor in why no one wanted to believe the card is real. I DO remember a few posts saying that if race were a factor, it was only in getting the story more news coverage and that if the sellers were caucasian this wouldn't be a story at all. <br /><br />Sorry - I'm paraphrasing those posters because I have zero desire or inclination to go back and reread all the hundreds of posts in the different threads on the issue. I think I pretty much got the gist of the comments right, but feel free to ring in if I misspoke for anyone.<br /><br />Anyway, could THAT be the kind of comment that this journalist is using to imply that some on this board did think that race played a role in this situation???<br /><br />Joann
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Run Forrest run...
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>There was a sarcastic post in the original thread where a member said he wouldn't buy the card because the sellers were black. Perhaps the sarcasm was lost on the "journalist."
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Jeff O</b><p>Hmmm... my recollection is that the only person who brought up race as a possible factor on this board was the actual seller himself. It's great how his own inane comments are now attributed to unnamed others. That's just great reporting.<br /><br />The thing that is so ridiculous about this is that if the Wagner is real, it represents a very significant find and a valuable collectible. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the people with the scratch to buy such an item could really care less who owns it now or who discovered it if it is indeed real. If the card was real they would have no problem finding a buyer. <br /><br />What's really important, however, can be found in another article on that same page by the same writer - former wrestling superstar Diamond Dallas Page is now into yoga! If that's not big news I don't know what is.<br /><br />Jeff<br />A white guy who practices yoga who would buy a card from an African American guy if it was a card he needed.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Perhaps Dr. Johnson's contention that "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" should be amended to say "The cry of racism is the last refuge of the scoundrel", for these characters.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Lets put this to the acid test -<br /><br />Would anyone not buy this card (if it were real) just because Osama bin Laden owned it or was selling it?
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>delete
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>What I'm worried about is someone deciding that those 2 guys are originally from Kentucky, and they wandered over the river there at Cincinnati to get out of the Bluegrass State. A fellow can better sell "investments" over in Ohio.<br /><br />Actually, you guys did predict the race dynamic... A pretty savvy bunch of guys on this board.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Boccabella</b><p>The story could have been more clear, but I don't believe the writer is saying members of this board who were quoted were all white --he's referring to those in the piece on HBO. The line reads close to the reference of this forum so it's probably construed that way by some. And he really needs to identify the "collectors" who claim race played a factor..or at least say where that observation is coming from. That's a bit reckless. The piece is just a segment from a "notes" type of column, so it's lacking some depth, unfortunately. <br /><br />But......a nice plug for the board in a big-time newspaper.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Hell, even OJ says it's a fake!<br><br>Frank
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Heres the same reprint they have.I recieved the card from a dealer getting out of cards in 1991 and at that time the card looked old,so i could see it being a reprint from the 70's. Is anyone fooled by the front of this card?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1156096826.JPG"> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1156096950.JPG">
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>This card has been offered for sale many times over the past few years. This card was originally offered on eBay, and the card was universally labelled a fake, and the card was removed by eBay. There was no indication anywhere of the seller's race. It was AFTER the auction that there was the Cincinnati newspaper had an article with pictures of the owners.<br /><br />Read the Cincinnati Post article yourself. It is the FIRST time the owner's pictures were ever published and the FIRST time the hobby had any knowledge of the seller's race. In the article, it mentions that eBay had EARLIER pulled the auction. In the article, Bill Mastro says he said (PAST TENSE) the card a reprint. Presumably, Mastro had not seen pictures of the owners at the time, as the article and photos wasn't published until AFTER his statement.<br /><br />Thus, the card was widely judged a fake and eBay had pulled the auction BEFORE the hobby had any knowledge or inkling of the seller's race, and, thus, was not influenced by race.<br /><br />Even a NY Daily News writer should be able to figure out that the stuff in the Cincinnati article had to have happened BEFORE the article and photos were published. And, if the publication of the article was the FIRST time the owners' race was identified, then the events described in the very article happened BEFORE the hobby knew the owners' race.<br /><br />All a logical, inteligent person has to do to make a judgment is to mark down the Cincinnati newspaper article pubication date on a calendar, and know that the events that happened before that date happened without knowledge of the sellers' race. I won't make judgment for others, but if one is to plot the events on the calendar, I suspect one will judge that the card was treated remarkably similarly by the hobby before and after the publication date. For example, eBay cancelled the auction of the card after the publication date, but they also cancelled the auction of the same card more than once before the date. People labelled the card a fake after the publication date, but people labelled the same card a fake before the pubication date. In these two examples at least, the hobby reaction appears unaffected by newfounded knowledge of race. Whether the reaction is positive or negative or right or wrong, if the hobby reaction did not change with the identification of the sellers' race, it's darn tough to argue that the identification of the sellers' race changed hobby reaction.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br />The whole "racial" thing reminds me a bit of the Ali G Show episode where he is interviewing Andy Rooney, who has zero sense of humor. Rooney walked off the interview in a huff. Ali G (for those of you who don't know, it is Sasha Baron Cohen, a white British comedian who plays a "black" rapper/talk show host resplendent in Hilfiger or FUBU sweats, bling,a doo rag, etc. and who speaks a mishmash of hip hop and British lower class slang) starting shouting that it was "racialism" and asked Rooney if it was because he was black. Rooney sneered "you'r not black".
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Michael O'Keeffe made something up in one of his columns?<br /><br />I'm shocked......shocked I tell you.<br /><br />And once again he has the opportunity to interview someone from Net 54 and chooses not to.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Bottom line without getting into a long socially-oriented dissertation...it would not have mattered if the sellers were convicted thieves (black, white, orange, green, etc.) if the card was real it would have sold.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Darrell</b><p>which came first the chicken or the egg.go back into the threads and see who brings up race first. he's is playing the race card
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Race?<br />If there is a race, I sure ain't winning.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>What I think is dubious about the angle is that that eBay has cancelled literally hundreds of 'T206 Wagner' auctions over the years and PSA has rejected another few hundred T206 Wagners. If the Daily News writer did a study of the racial makeup of these card owners, he likely would come to the conclusion, "You know, maybe eBay and PSA doesn't reject cards becase of racial makeup." My guess is that 99 percent of the card owners will be white, mostly white males. <br /><br />In fact, after seeing the high percentage of T206 Wagners pulled by eBay and rejected by PSA, the writer would see that the rejection of the owners' card is normal.<br /><br />The thing that I have never understood about this card is why it has been singled out by the press for special attention. There have been hundreds and hundreds of cards rejected by eBay and/or called reprint by Bill Mastro. Any of these cards is no less deserving of an appearance on a television show or newspaper article.<br />
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>Its amazing how this story keeps morphing and reappearing across America like the bird flu...wonder if its going to show up on Oprah..or worse yet..Geraldo...<br /><br />Ricky Yo - one of the poor asians on the board from the west coast... :-P
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>are there any "black" graders at PSA, SGC, or GAI ??? dont the owners of the card still refuse to have it graded by one of these legit companies???<br /><br />simply amazing...
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Mike P</b><p>This episode of COBB & EDWARDS GO TO MARKET turns on three errors by Connelly, the auctioneer and appraiser.<br /><br />1. It's a mystery why Connelly appraised the card last year for $850,000. He says he relied on the evidence of authentication provided by the owners. But they have no provenance before about 1980 (to be generous). And even if the paper and printing consultants could say the card was old -- which they can't -- it wouldn't prove it is genuine. Rantanen, the creditable paper expert said in Michael Hirsley's August 16, 2006 Chicago Tribune article: "I couldn't discredit the card, but I couldn't absolutely verify its age." In short, the card needs to be authenticated by experts familiar with T206 cards before it could be properly appraised. Instead, Connelly is quoted in the Chicago Tribune as saying, "I want to find an authenticator of documents, not necessarily baseball cards, to verify this card as genuine." The man just doesn't get it. (Wish he'd look at john/z28jd's REPRINT card above.)<br /> <br />2. Connelly's error was compounded when about a year later he accepted the card for auction, and respecting the owners' wishes, didn't have it PSA graded -- as he did all the other cards he offered at the same time. <br /><br />It is technically not a conflict of interest for an individual to be both auctioneer and appraiser, but as Warren Buffet has said, "Never ask a barber if you need a haircut." That goes double if you're the hirsute barber! Connelly's confusion about what constitutes authenticity is probably just that -- confusion. But his refusal to over-rule the owners regarding grading is not confusion. At the very least, it's bad business. More likely it's visions of sugar plums...<br /><br />3. The idea that sports cards enthusiasts wouldn't give Cobb & Edwards a fair shake because of racial issues seems to have been put into play by the owners' attorney after a failed eBay outing. Of course, the owners have not been bashful about keeping the idea in the press (and on this Forum) themselves. But Real Sports and the Daily News seem to have succumbed to the race card frenzy because Connelly has. Hirsley in the Trib has this Connelly quote: "If these two guys were white, we wouldn't be having this problem."<br /><br />David Smith in this thread predicted "that 2 things were going to happen; 1) the race card was going to be played and 2) somebody was going to get sued. Well, the first thing has happened. Now I am just waiting to see who gets sued."<br /><br />Sooner or later Connelly will have to get the card authenticated by a recognized grader -- PSA, GAI or whoever -- which will end the owners' dreams of cashing in on the fake Wagner. Anybody want to hazard a guess at how that will play in Cincinnati? Any predictions Dave?<br><br>No matter how far you have gone on the wrong road, turn back.<br />-- Turkish proverb
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Kenneth A. Cohen</b><p>Only a matter of time till Jackson and Sharpton intercede?
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>"I want to find an authenticator of documents, not necessarily baseball cards, to verify this card as genuine."<br /><br />A curious statement. If someone wants a baseball card authenticated, it's always a bright idea to avoid respected authenticators who specialize in baseball cards. By the same token, if you have a serious medical problem with your foot it's always a bright idea to avoid podiatrists and get your foot checked out by a dentist or allergist ... Also note that he does not say he wants to find an authenticator of documents so as to ask the authenticator whether or not the card is genuine. He says he wants to find an authenticator of documents who will say the card is genuine.<br /><br />....<br /><br />My question for the auctioneer would be, if he honestly feels that the hobby respected baseball card graders are not to be trusted to authenticate a T206 baseball card, why was he auctioning all those PSA authenticated T206 cards in the same auction?
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> I would think after all this attention these guys have got over this card,if they do sell it,all they are asking for is trouble once the buyer has the card authenticated and it comes back as a reprint. Whoever couldve met their asking price in the past would obviously have had enough money to get some good lawyers or ACTUAL card experts to verify the card is fake,so maybe the extra exposure theyre getting is actually a good thing for them of all people.It should be painfully obvious to people by now that a real card wouldnt have so many naysayers who have never seen the card in person.<br /> <br /> I dont know this Bob Connelly guy who ran this auction but if he had a good name beforehand,it really took a hit by this auction.I hope his motive wasnt just a big payday at the expense of an unsuspecting person who looked at his credentials and took it for face value.Luckily no one bid on the card but you really have to wonder what he was thinking<br /><br /> The fact that i have the same card as them should be enough proof for anyone because im way too lazy and far too poor to keep working with that potential windfall sitting on top my desk.For as little as $400k in the bank,not one of you would ever see me again and my fingers would be too fat to type within a year or so <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Morrie</b><p>I live just outside Cincinnati. Last time this thing came up and had the big article in the paper, I contacted the guy who wrote it and said that if he wanted another opinion, I had a few hundred t206 and knew the characteristics of a real vs. authentic card.<br /><br />His response was pretty telling. He referred me to the two gentlemen's lawyer, since the lawyer was the official contact for anything related to the card, and indicated that he (the author of the piece) did not want to deal with anything related to the card in the future.<br /><br />"Talk to the lawyer." That's enough to make me back way, way off.<br /><br />I won't bother offering an opinion on the card's authenticity (and hey, who am I, anyway?). This is a case where I think the market is saying all it needs to say, and what the market is saying has absolutely nothing to do with the race of anyone involved.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>So none of you lawyers sue me, but it sounds like the one guy that's making out on this deal is the lawyer, which I'm prefectly fine with. I hope the counsel for these two schmucks bills them when he accidentally sees part of a baseball game walking through the electronics department of Sears.<br /><br />--Chad
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>good advice Morrie.<br /><br />...these two guys may be smarter than we think and are just phishing for a civil rights lawsuit...no other angle/outcome about this whole fiasco makes sense to me...did they really think some unknown fool would pop up at a Binghamton strip mall and lay down 300k?
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>Who the hell are they planning to sue? Are they going to have some kind of weird reverse class action suit where they sue every white person who's ever bought a baseball card? (In which case, gulp!) Are they going to sue ebay? I don't see how the can sue Connely. This is all very puzzling. I only got 38 bucks for my Hal Chase T206 on ebay last night. I can I see you bastards for not driving the price up?<br /><br />--Chad
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Mike P</b><p>The lawyer for Cobb and Edwards seems to have gone on to bigger fish (phish?). He hasn't figured in recent stories of their attempts to sell a preternaturally aged copy of the Honus Wagner reprint card.<br /><br />The big winner in this story, so far, has been "the public," which hasn't been fooled -- yet -- thanks to decent folk who've spoken out, including some members of this Forum. In fact, there's been so much publicity about the Cobb/Edwards card they may never be able to mount another marketing campaign, unless they fake authentication.<br /><br />That makes Cobb and Edwards losers, but that's a role they should be used to by now. This pair seems less and less like scaliwags and more and more like dupes of their own greed and ignorance. Too bad for them.<br /><br />The big loser in this episode of the Cobb/Edwards story has been Connelly, the auctioneer, who's probably left footing the bill for bodyguards, insurance, promotion, and advertising. And wondering how to rebuild a damaged reputation.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Russ Bright</b><p>Did anyone see that there is a half page article with a picture of these cards and their card in this weeks Sports illustrated? Makes me sick to think about how much publicity these guys are getting for an obvious fake. The press is attempting to be as unbiased as possible, but this WILL NOT die...<br /><br />Just think, if everyone from the board came out with "real" Honus cards... flood the market... drive the price down...<br /><br />THEN the people who know what they're talking about can buy the real ones for cheap!<br /><br />Awesome, and as a byproduct we could be on TV and get interviewed by the New Yorker and SI. Maybe Beckett can do a piece about the miraculous find of 2000 more T206 Wagners!<br /><br />I lived in Detroit (off of 6 Mile, the Black Side of town) for about 2 months. I was the one skinny little white guy in a sea of angry black men and women. Racism is about perception. Everyone there wanted to percieve me as a threat, the chip on their shoulder made them unable to accept me for me. If you go into a situation like this with both guns blazing about "I'm Purple and I know you aren't going to trust me because i'm Purple and purple people aren't to be trusted, here's my Million dollar card" you perpetuate the hatred/racism.<br /><br />It's true, people are inherently wary of people who are different (colors, shapes, sizes, sexes) Choosing to recognize or dismiss these differences is everyone's job. It's a 2 way street.<br /><br />Finally, the thing that I love the most about the internet. We're all pretty anonymous here, as I have learned over tha last 14 years with some type of "web" connection. Nobody is what they seem, so I just imagine you all as really hot blonde college girls. That makes my internet experience EXTRA special (If I believe something that makes it true, right?)
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Scott Gross</b><p>Russ,<br />You're 100% correct. As I stated in one of the other posts, these two have set race relations back 50 years.<br /><br />Not to highjack the thread into a "what do you look like," but here I am:<br /><br /><img src="http://girls.twistys.net/preview/408/pic02.jpg"> .... mybuddy <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>you had a My Buddy doll?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>"Something's worth what someone's willing to pay for it," to quote John Cobb, one of the owners of the card in question. <br /><br />According to his own criteria, his card is worthless.<br /><br />The card is NOT worth $850,000 because Connelly said so.<br /><br />It is difficult to see what race has to do with this.<br /><br />
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Connelly had a bunch of real, graded T206s ending on eBay at around the same time the nimrod Wagner was up. I needed a few, and would have bid on them despite the live auction/juice nonsense (which I usually avoid like the plague), but didn't because of their involvement with this fake card. So, they've already lost at least a little business and slightly higher auction returns.<br /><br />I suspect this escapade will cost them more business in the long run, as a damaged reputation is hard to fix.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>As noted, the card's owner defined what the card is worth: "Something's worth what someone's willing to pay for it."<br /><br />If no one's willing to pay $300,000 for the card, by his own denifition the card is not worth $300,000. If no one is willing to pay $20,000, by his definition the card is not worth $20,000. <br /><br />By his definition, if no one is willing to pay the asking price, the asking price is higher than the card's worth.<br /><br />So far the highest recorded sale of the card was when the owner payed, I beleive, $1,800.<br /><br />By the owner's definition of worth, there is no demonstrated evidence that the card is worth more than $1,800, and there is every evidence that the card is not worth $300,000 or more.<br /><br />The owner would have a hard time arging against this valuation, as it was defined by him.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Mike P</b><p>Strangely, Cobb's definition of the value of the card pretty well accords with the widely accepted Supreme Court definition of <b>fair market value</b>.<br /><br />Cobb said: "Something's worth what someone's willing to pay for it."<br /><br />The Supreme Court in U.S. vs Cartwright wrote: "The fair market value is the price at which the property would change hands between a willing buyer and a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy or to sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant facts."<br /><br />The usual interpretation, and probably what Cobb meant, is prospective, not retrospective.<br /><br />Based on current selling prices for Honus Wagner T206 reprints on eBay, the Cobb/Edwards card is worth, not the $1800 Cobb says he paid for it, but the $10-20 it would bring on eBay -- discounting its notoriety.<br /><br />In "How to Put a Price on a Dream," Paul Daugherty of the Cincinnati Enquirer wrote on 5/23/2004: "He paid $1,800 for the Wagner card 20 years ago, with the promise from the owner that he could get his money back if he couldn't sell it."<br /><br />Maybe it's time to cash in on that promise?<br /><br /><br /><br />
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Does anyone believe this guy paid $1800 for the card?<br />I would love to see the receipt for that purchase.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>The owners note that they have spent "thousands of hours" in researching their card.<br /><br />A google search of T206 Wagner + fake took me 0.43 seconds. The third item listed was our own cycleback's article on "Judging the Authenticity of Early Baseball Cards." <br /><br />Five minutes spent reading this article . . .
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>"He paid $1,800 for the Wagner card 20 years ago, with the promise from the owner that he could get his money back if he couldn't sell it."<br /><br />The above sale price would be about $1,795 too high and for a reprint and about $30,000 (+/-) too low for a genuine T206 Wagner. The question would then be did the original seller think he was selling a reprint or a genuine T206 Honus Wagner, as the $1,800 sales doesn't match either. <br /><br />There's an old Chinese proverb:<br /><br />"Why would a baseball card dealer sell you a $50,000 baseball card for $1,000? Because the card isn't worth $50,000."<br /><br />There's was a variation on the same proverb:<br /><br />"Why did the knowledgeable baseball card dealer sell a card worth $10,000 for $1,000? Because the card was worth $100."<br /><br />And there's a third, and last, variation:<br /><br />"How can someone sell Babe Ruth autographed baseballs for only $150 each? If you can't answer that, you shouldn't collect autographs."
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Mike P</b><p>"The above sale price [$1800] would be about $1,795 too high for a reprint and about $30,000 too low for a genuine T206 Wagner."<br /><br />It's a Goldilocks price. Not too high, not too low, just right for a tale told by novices.<br /><br />No one familiar with the hobby would believe it.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p><br />"Does anyone believe this guy paid $1800 for the card?<br />I would love to see the receipt for that purchase." <br /><br />To me this is the best part of their story. The guy claims to know nothing about cards, yet knew enough to fork over $1,800 for it in the mid-80's (he doesn't remember the name of the dealer or the exact year of the transaction). The idea that he would spend $1,800 for ANY card when the rest of his collection appears to be a mish-mash of worthless junk form a myriad of collectibles fields strains credulity. <br /><br />Then he claims to have held on to the card for several years (so apparently he knew enough to buy the card for $1,800, but not enough to know that the card was worth hundreds of thousands more or that he should bother trying to sell it for a huge profit) until he saw a TV piece on Gretzky & McNall and the big sale of the card for over $500k. (That's when he claims to have realized, "I have that card".) <br /><br />Then things get really interesting: Once they realize they have such a valuable card, they sit on for almost a decade. A decade! Then, of course, we join our heroes in their fight to prove the validity of their card. <br /><br />Now, compare that above to the scenario where the lawyer whose practice is about 5 miles from where the two guys live says there was a break-in at his practice where the same "novelty" Wagner card was stolen. And then just a few weeks later, these guys start trying to sell the card. <br /><br />Which one sounds more plausible? <br /><br />My speculation is this: Someone stole the card from the lawyer and promptly sold it to these guys for $1,800 -- and these guys knew about the card and figured they were the ones making out like bandits. When they went to sell it, they realized they may been ripped off and just can't come to terms with that (or the dashing of their "get-rich-quick" dreams).
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>My advice to the budding T206 Wagner entrepreneur is to buy all the T206 Honus Wagners reprints you see on eBay and Yahoo!, because there's got to be a chance that one of them is real, right? Sure, most of them will turn out to be duds, but it only takes one to be real and, boom, you're on easy street.<br /><br />It seems such a waste to spend one's time and effort on one card, when you could be diversifying.<br /><br />For a little insider's advice, I heard that with the 2000 Fan Fest Wagner reprints, Fan Fest ran out of reprints and pasted Fan Fest backs onto a few real Wagner cards. Granted, this is only a second hand rumor, but it would definitely be smart to start with the Fan Fest Wagners.<br /><br />And, lastly but not leastly, even if all the cards turn out to be reprints: I hear that sexy young babes dig guys who spend all their disposable income on baseball cards. While I'm no matchmaker, I can assure anyone reading this post that his chances of getting a date with Jessica Alba or Maria Sharapova will not be lower if he spends more on baseball cards.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Mike P</b><p>Aaron suggests above<br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1156207296/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1156207296/</a><br />"My speculation is this: Someone stole the card from the lawyer and promptly sold it to these guys for $1,800"<br /><br />Neat hypothesis, but probably not workable.<br /><br />The Newport attorney James Kidney reported his Honus reprint stolen <b>August 2002</b>, according to the Kentucky Post<br /><a href="http://www.kypost.com/2002/aug/21/card082102.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.kypost.com/2002/aug/21/card082102.html</a><br /><br />But MW in another VBC Forum thread says<br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1154991589/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1154991589/</a><br />"I recall both of these individuals showing up in <b>1992</b> at a card show held at the Cincinnati Convention Center....One of the two guys purchased a reprinted T206 Wagner..."<br /><br />And Michael O'Keeffe writing in the Daily News on Nov 20, 2005 says:<br />"Steve Wolter, owner of Sports Investments, a card and memorabilia business in Cincinnati, examined the card 'eight or nine years ago [<b>1996 or 1997</b>],' and says he determined it was a reprint."<br /><br />So it would seem that Cobb & Edwards had the card well before Kidney reported his stolen -- and they probably paid a lot less than $1800 for it.<br /><br />In this thread, john/z28jd posts scans of his Honus Wagner reprint and says<br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1156097025/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1156097025/</a><br />"Heres the same reprint they have.I recieved the card from a dealer getting out of cards in <b>1991</b> and at that time the card looked old,so i could see it being a reprint from the 70's. Is anyone fooled by the front of this card?"<br /><br />It would be interesting to know if the details of John's purchase (where, how much, any story) would shed light on Cobb & Edwards' Cincinnati buy. John?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> I doubt my Wagner story helps but i didnt buy the reprint. It was given to me by an older seller who was leaving the card collecting business and had a table of about 15 cards left,mostly nice ones.I bought a Joss,pitching a Bresnahan,batting and a Beckley from him passing on the Mathewson card he had which was either the white cap or black cap. When i paid for the cards he gave me the reprinted Wagner as a bonus.He kept it on display in his store with the real t206s. I dont know where the guy was from exactly but it was somewhere close to Cherry Hill,NJ as that was where the show was and i remember taking his card just in case i wanted to buy the Mathewson later on which i never did.<br /><br /> I do have an interesting story about a card dealer named Ed Walsh who used to run shows at the Asbury Park Convention Center back in the 80's early 90's. He had a card store in Eatontown NJ and he had a Wagner reprint with a price tag of $10,000 on it in his display case.On the sticker on back it said something like, has one small crease so i'll take $5 for it.Well apparently someone who didnt see the back of the card broke into his store one night and walked off with just the Wagner card,nothing else. I bet they got a nice surprise when they realized they risked their freedom for $5 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Mike P</b><p>Thanks, John for the courtesy of your Wagner reprint story, and for the sad-amusing tale of the Ed Walsh break-in. I can just see that one in the local newspapers under a "Crime doesn't pay" headline.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Daniel Bretta</b><p>I just got an email from Mr. O'Keeffe who claims that he offered to interview me in the past, but I never had the "courage" to call him. That's either a flat out lie or his email went straight to my junkmail box which I don't even look at - it's a possiblility since he likes to leave the subject line blank in his emails.<br /><br />I asked him if he has the "Courage" to come on this board and explain the following quote from his article: <br /><br /> "On Network 54, an Internet vintage card forum, the reaction was mixed. Some collectors were angry that Cobb and Edwards weren't dismissed as crooks.<br /><br />Others agreed that Cobb and Edwards may be on to something when they say prejudice has played a role in the debate over their card."<br /><br /><br />
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Hmmmm...he emailed me again calling me a liar saying that he left me his phone number and I didn't call....I guess I didn't view that as a "request for an interview".<br /><br />For the record he's reading this thread and he still won't answer the questions surrounding his "story" on the Wagner card. Not really surprising considering the NY Daily News is pretty much the equivalent of the National Enquirer.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>Are you the only baseball card expert on the east coast? If he somehow couldn't get ahold of you, he couldn't find somebody else to interview? Crissakes, how far is SGC from the Daily News offices? REally, I just wish he'd sign in and copy and past even one posting that implied the card may be real but we wouldn't recognize it as such because of the race of the card's owners. Just one. For once, we all seem to agree on something. So at least we get that out of this!<br /><br />--Chad
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Maybe Mr. O'Keefe is too busy indulging in the Horny Goat Weed to respond..... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Chad, he doesn't like me because I called him out on the DiMaggio bat (long story and for a different board). He still never answered my question on that one. I guess since he's the "reporter" he's the only one who can ask the questions.<br /><br />
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>btw, I think I have corresponded with Mr.O'keefe before......at any rate..<br /><br />O'keefe wrote:<br /><br /><br />*****************<br />"On Network 54, an Internet vintage card forum, the reaction was mixed. Some collectors were angry that Cobb and Edwards weren't dismissed as crooks.<br /><br />Others agreed that Cobb and Edwards may be on to something when they say prejudice has played a role in the debate over their card."<br /><br />***********<br /><br /><br /><br />So even if you only look at the top part of his blurb, as you could think that maybe, just maybe, the bottom part wasn't intended to mean our board, giving him the benefit of the doubt, there was not one person on this board who thought the "whole" card was real. Not one. It's very public. His statement can't be defended. I am sure there is a legal term for it but it doesn't look to be a "defensable" statement. (there's a stab at it).....
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>That he doesn't like you doesn't give him license for shoddy reporting. All he's doing is helping to con men find a mark. That's low even by New York tabloid standards. <br /><br />--Chad
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>You can't give him the benefit of the doubt here because he says the feelings were "mixed" on the board. The way it is written it is obvious that both sentences are referring to Net 54. He just made it up, and that's why he can't come here to defend himself.<br /><br />Of course that probably won't stop him from invading my inbox calling me a liar and a coward again.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Chad, he writes for the NY Daily News. That's his license for shoddy reporting right there.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The funning thing is that, as most all T206 Wagners are sold in auctions where the seller<br />is anonymous, the winner rarely has any indication of the race, religous, political views,<br />sex, sexual orientation orrace of the card's owner. If the bidder is a white Conservative Republican<br />from Houston, he likely will realize there's a decent chance that the seller is a Liberal<br />Jewish Democrat from San Francisco who might cast a vote for Hillary. I'm quite sure the <br />thought doesn't prevent him from placing a bid. I'm confident there are conservative Christian Republicans<br />who would purchase a Wagner from Marilyn Manson, if Marilyn had one for sale.<br /><br />The whole concept that people won't buy an authentic T206 Wagner at a fair market price<br />because of the seller's race is, simply, stupid. To be honest, I'm not convinced<br />that anyone believes this racism angle. Just because people say something, doesn't<br />mean they beleive it. This is particularly true as the owners are aware that<br />the card didn't sell a on eBay before their race was published. <br />The lack of bidding obviouisly couldn't have had anything to do with race then.<br /><br />The race issue appears to be nothing more then a red herring from people who can't<br />find someone to pay hundreds of dollars for their card. <br /><br />In my opinion, Martin Luther King and his memory deserves better that this. And, if they<br />look past the $$$ and into their hearts, all parties will agree. I believe that there is<br />racism and injustice in this world, but I also believe that knowingly falsely claiming<br />racism for the sake of money is spitting on King's grave. I do not know what the owners<br />beleive, but if they do not beleive that their card is authentic and they are are knowingly<br />using false accusations, perhaps they should spend a little more time thinking <br />about how to get to heaven and a little less time about how to make money.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If these guys truly believed the card was real but felt that they would have trouble selling it because they are black, why not simply hire a broker (white of course) to sell the card for them and give him a fee for his work. Since the card is worth $1 million, that would still leave them with 900K+. The problem is there are so many loopholes in their story that everything they say can so easily be picked apart. Keeping their race out of the transaction would have been so simple but they are hellbent on all the attention they are getting from this. Their actions make no sense at all. By the way, Mr. O'Keefe interviewed me over the phone last year as he is doing a book on the T206 Wagner and he seemed at the time to be a reasonable guy.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>Mr. O'Keefe is looking to dredge up some controversy in time for the arrival of his book. I bet this little episode will make a nice chapter in the book. I know Leon doesn't want us to use foul language, but this guy's a douche bag.<br /><br />--Chad
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Mike P</b><p>Perhaps Connelly, the auctioneer, doesn't know that playing the race card is an opening gambit -- a ploy to gain advantage -- not a social commentary. But O'Keefe himself, whom Dan Bretta says is "reading this thread" should know better.<br /><br />By the same token, it's hard to understand how O'Keeffe, who Barry reports "is doing a book on the T206 Wagner," wouldn't know in a heartbeat that the Cobb-Edwards card is a reprint.<br /><br />O'Keeffe's failure to set out the facts about the reprint, and his deliberate obfuscation of the (nonexistent) role of race here on the Forum is indefensible and inexcusble -- even for a would-be New York author craving publicity.<br><br>Honesty and integrity are the key to business success. <br />If you can fake them, you will go a long way in business.<br />-- Groucho Marx
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>with all the press these 2 guys attained from a reprint t206 wagner....they may be able to someday auction this card off as the single most famous (infamous) baseball card that ever existed. maybe they could get pro or grademycards to label it "the cobb/edwards wagner" auth(?).
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I talked to Mr. O'Keefe yesterday and also a bit back about the T206 Wagner (can't remember why I got called but did). He is straight forward and does not hide anything or pull any punches. I had not read the 2 quotes aboout the Net 54 reactions when speaking to him and since have emailed him about the quotes.<br /><br />The one thing he did regret and takes for blame is the title of the article, he told me he left it up to his editor. From what I got out of why these guys are getting national exposure is because of the time and effort they have put into trying to sell this card and the fact that Mr. Connelly jumped on the bandwagon. <br />I got the impression that he does not feel the card is real but feel the paper dating evidence is compelling. I pointed out to him the possiblity of the card being rebacked and that was not a scenario that he was aware of. <br /><br />I believe, (I know alot of you are going to disagree, he is very approachable) Mr. O'Keeffe is an upstanding person and was more than willing to listen to my question and concerns about his article and approach. He has been during research into vintage baseball areas and the book on the T206 "Gretzky" Wagner should be interesting, he is trying to track the history of the card.<br /><br />Lee
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>John</b><p>I'm amazed you guys continue to give these two clowns, three if you include this Connelly guy even a second out of your lives by still discussing this at length. IMO
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I don't know the writer of the article but I do deal with the Daily News and its writers very frequently. Trust me, they make mistakes but if pointed to one they usually acknowledge it. While the paper is a NY tabloid it has a larger circulation than almost any newspaper in the country - and NY readers are espeically nasty and unforgiving if they are misled. The article about the card was hardly a big story in the paper that day so it's hard to imagine that the error (and I agree it was an error) was made in order to drum up interest in the article.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I read today the article about the biggest buyer ever of Barry Bonds memorabilia and the guy pictured was a portly middle aged white business man. I read that he's not getting the prices he wants at resale, despite the plethora of press his collection has gotten. I'm curious how the Daily News would work this into the racism theory.
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>A race card can not be played unless you deal it out.<br /><br />There are no race cards and no creed cards in my deck, and I accept no whining on these subjects. Please remove them from your decks so we can get on with the game.<br /><br />Now lets talk about gender cards ...
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Gilbert, are you saying that you are not playing with a full deck?? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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"Race card played in failure to sell Honus collectible"
Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p><br />It is times like these that I wish that I dealt out less jokers.
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