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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The past several days have brought to light a number of disturbing events in the vintage card hobby. First and foremost, the embarrassing fiasco with the bogus T206 Wagner will showcase many of the seedier aspects of the baseball card hobby. On a related thread, respected hobby veteran Brian Goldner discussed some graded cards he purchased that were clearly tampered with. Steve Verkman, who has handled his share of vintage cards, stated that many of the higher grade slabbed cards have been altered and missed the scrutiny of the authenticaters. Likewise, although I must leave the details confidential, I was involved in a large deal that fell through because it was purported that some very valuable high grade cards were no good even though they were all encapsulated. As cards become more expensive, there is a greater incentive to alter and counterfeit them in ever more sophisticated and difficult to detect ways. How is the hobby prepared to deal with these very dangerous issues?

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>apparently...it's not! The hobby needs it's core of respected experts...like yourself Barry to form some type of venture to adress this need! I'm sure most of us on this board with expertise in vintage cards would happily give up our day jobs to handle cards all day...I know I would!<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>I think the numerical grading of cards has become a monster and compels people to try to alter cards. There's just too much money at stake for many to resist the temptation. All I want from an authenticator is to slab the card and let me know that it's authentic and not altered and I'll decide if I like the card's presentation. Eventually a service to cater to folks like me will be created and a lot of the pressure put on people to stretch and trim vg-ex cards into ex-nmt cards will evaporate. At least I hope. <br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>Good point Chad...I totally agree!<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>Seth B.</b><p>Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I sort of think it will take care of itself. Didn't this happen right before the bubble burst in the 90's as well? I mean, follow this equation: as sportscards get ever more expensive, people start counterfeiting more frequently and deviously. Then, people with a lot of money (who are helping to drive up prices on cards) but not a lot of expertise start getting burned more and more often and eventually get scared away. When they leave, the inflation of card prices slows or even drops, and there's less incentive to counterfeit or scam as there's less money involved and most people still left are the die-hards with enough know-how to spot a fake. <br />It's cyclic, I think. The best thing to do is to educate yourself, buy the card not the plastic, and use a fair measure of good sense.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>They have to be vigilant in creating tamper-proof slabs, and must be careful in their authenticating of cards.<br /><br />I am sure some will slip through and get graded... but hopefully that percentage will be very low... low enough to discourage thieves who make fakes.<br /><br />Quite honestly -- anything that puts a shadow on authenticity only makes hobby participants run as fast as they can to the authentication companies. Sorry to the 'anti-slab' hobbyists out there... but this will strengthen the need for slabbing.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>But how many unaltered cards will there be left?<br /><br />I know, a lot still, but it troubles me how many cards are getting butchered and, once butchered, they can't be fixed even after a market correction. And even more, it pisses me off how many vintage baseball guides are getting shredded so their pictures can be sold as "mint cards." <br /><br />--Chad<br /><br />I completely agree that slabbing and authenticating are needed. I just don't like the numerical grading which I think is a false standard, mostly. So, I'm not anti-slab, just anti-ranking, I guess.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p>For thoughs of you that know me and have spoken to me in deepth. That is exactly why I don't collect cards. I love the hobby and buy and sell cards. But the BS that goes in to some of the grading and what people do and get graded is incredible. There is alot of things people can do with paper now and the graders cannot pick it up. I have numerous story's that would make your toe's curl. As a equity and currency anaylst we are in about March 31st of 2000 in this hobby as far as prices and value's are concerned. Super post again..

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>This is precisely the reason why I COLLECT cards and don't INVEST in them. The only "investment" I make in baseball cards is an emotional one; shelling out money requires some degree of available funds, but I try and do it only with disposable income or with money I generate from the sale of other cards.<br /><br />I "invest" in more traditional places, with funds that I would like to see grow over time.<br /><br />It's nice to know that today, if I wanted to recoup some of the money I've put into my collection, I could. But if the bottom fell out of the hobby tomorrow, I would still have the same thing I have today - a collection of baseball cards. And with prices even lower, I'd be able to buy even more!<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>At least w/ PSA, SGC and mostly with GAI, an EX card will not have a nail or bullett hole...<br /><br />As long as your not last to the party, its ok. Once its in a holder, its a commodity. I didn't see alot of NearMint prewar in the 80s, but I see alot now. Hmmmm

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Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p>If the bottom falls out I would still buy and enjoy the hobby... Some people may not be able to take a big hit if the card market bottomed out. Many people hate the tradition markets ie... after the dot booms... and have put $ in untraditional areas like cards, art work, cars, etc... I put alot of $ in the card market in that time frame and just could not experience another hammer blow, so jumped ship. Different strokes for different folk's.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>It's just our society... everyone wants PERFECT things... many people will stoop pretty low to make sure they get those pretty perfect things...<br /><br />Lasers can be used to finely trim paper. Could you imagine using that technology to cut minute pieces of imperfections down to create the ultimate edges and corners for a card. <br /><br />It's like plastic surgery... does any guy here really abhor a nice altered rack? Sorry to use such a poor analogy but it kind of fits.<br /><br />As stated, what does it mean for the hobby? I hate to bring this up, yet again, but we need to look no further than the grading provided for the Harris Collection of T206 cards. Does anyone want to debate whether or not trimmed cards from that set were encapsulated? I'm not saying that it was knowingly done, nor am I saying it wasn't. Maybe, pretty soon people will cherish the beaters because they represent what is "real" about the hobby... could you imagine people cracking cards out of 8 holders so that they can trash them to have that "worn" look... ok, it's early and I should remove the bottles from my office before someone finds them and turns me in for taking an early lunch break...

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Posted By: <b>Seth B.</b><p>Chad- you're right, and that's too bad, but that's why I collect cards in the VG and that's why they call it "Collector's Grade." I've taught myself enough to spot a fake, but maybe not enough to spot rolling, trimming, soaking, smoking, steaming, and dry-cleaning. And even if you are an expert, when most of the business is done on e-bay, there's no way you can tell everything in a scan of a card. So, I collect VG cards, cards I'll be happy to have when prices drop and I can buy even more VG cards!

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>I collect vg, too, but mostly that's a matter of affordabilty for me. I really do like things that look old, too. Steel toys look cooler than the plastic stuff I grew up with. Vintage refrigerators and toasters and fans look better to me than the new stuff. I'm not a person who thinks the past is always better than the present--quite the opposite, actually--but things seemed to be built with more care way back when. The lithography of vintage cards or the photographic cards of a lot of vintage Cuban sets knock the socks off the stuff produced now. But I'm veering from the topic of this thread, so I'll stop.<br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>This is EXACTLY why other hobbies have organized and have self policing aspects of the organization. Antique collectors societies exist for almost every other hobby in the world except Sports Collectibles. You pay a small due and have rights and responsibilities as a member. Dealers and collectors who engage in shady acts will loose their membership and the reasons for such can be known throughout the organization. Those without a membership are looked at with a crooked eye (dealers anyways) sort of like how people react to private auctions on ebay. It will not solve all the problems in the hobby, but it certainly would solve some of them. I think my fathers dues every year as a member of the TCA (Train collectors Association) were like $15 annually but for that cost you also got discounts for shows and a newsletter etc. My brother Rhett and I grew up around it so it seems natural, and in most other hobbies, it works pretty well. It probably will not happen in Sports Collectibles, but it should.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Someone mentioned that many of these card altering shenanigans were taking place in the 1990's, and that was certainly true. The response was the advent of the grading services, which were formed not only to grade but to detect these alterations. Now it is coming to light with greater frequency that altered cards are getting encapsulated anyway. What's the defense to that? Do cards that were graded five years ago have to be resubmitted to be looked at with ever greater scrutiny? I don't know the answer, but it is a serious concern. With regard to Rhys's post, what can the network54 community do to help clean up parts of the hobby that need policing? We are a pretty powerful and educated group, and there must be something a large field of experts can do similar to what Rhys suggested.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>None of this is news, is it? Isn't one of the reasons there was a market for PSA in the first place that altering cards had become rampant in the late 80s and early 90s? Surely since the first card PSA graded, there has been speculation, or maybe even proof, that cards that had been altered in ways generally deemed unacceptable were being graded by grading services. I think in answer to Barry's question, it's just an inevitable fact of life, and each of us who collects will have a different response, ranging from indifference to buying lower grade cards to refining choice of grading services to changing personal views on what sorts of alterations are acceptable, and so on. I don't think it's going to destroy vintage card collecting though; we are all too addicted, among other things.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>First of all great post, Barry. I think it was Barry Halper that tried to start a National Collectors Club (or something like that) back in the early 80's. Not sure if it ever got off the ground but the mention of a society for vintage baseball card collectors is not new. This post got me thinking about my collection so I stumbled over to it and see that my main collecting grade is in the SGC30-SGC50 area's, with only a few higher. Personally I like both high grade and mid grade (and a few lower) but my resources, and maybe in the long run "dumb luck" has me collecting "collector" grade. I think there is too much depth in the vintage card market for there to be a Black Monday of sorts. Too many collectors/investors to buy anything that looks like a good or great buy. I have to admit if the market totally crashed and my cards were worth nothing that it would hurt financially. I would still have the great little gems to enjoy though.....BTW, anyone that doesn't think a lot, if not most, very high end, 90-100 year old cards are untampered with, is a little bit naive...imo...best regards

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Some of the problems can be addressed by simply having more knowledgable and experienced graders. The fact that the altered cards that Barry refers to ultimately came to light means that to at least some degree the problem is unqualified graders.<br /><br />I love Chad's suggestion that the role of the grading company should be merely to opine whether the card has been altered. Because in today's world there is no problem getting prospective buyers/bidders quality images of cards, there is arguably no need to assign a numerical grade in order to describe the card's condition.<br /><br />Another idea which I have espoused for some time is for a card to be assigned a grade with a margin of error attached to it, analogous to how political polling is done. I think we all recognize that there is a degree of subjectivity to grading; one person's 8 could easily be another person's 7. Suppose for example PSA went to half grades (e.g., a card could be slabbed as a 7.5) and recognized that there is a margin of error of +/- .5 to any grade. Under the system I am proposing, a 7.0 would be slabbed as a 6.5-7.5; a 7.5 would come back as a 7.0-8.0. The beauty of this method is that it recognizes that, due to the margin-of-error factor, some 7.0s are in fact better than some 7.5s and as good as some 8s. While I have no illusions that such a system will eliminate the incentive to alter cards, perhaps to some degree it will reduce the ridiculous difference in value between cards one grade apart and thereby reduce the degree of tampering.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Corey- interesting and sensible idea, but would it be embraced by the collecting public? People like precision, especially at the high end.

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>very insightful post Barry.<br /><br />like many of you i have found myself happier collecting in the vg range. i find that they have that cherished old look<br />and feel and somehow removed most of my old perfectionism and earlier preoccupation with higher grades. I find myself<br />absolutely enjoying them more and more. Granted, i have<br />always been a collector and not an investor with the cards, so my highest grades were never more than 70 or 80 and those were rare. <br />This has worked well for me. I'm not saying it should be universal.<br />What has become most pleasing for me to see is the great collegiality and consequent top drawer scholarship which is taking place on this board as we continue to find ways to make this hobby as sound and exciting and ethical as possible even while barbarians try and tear it apart with their counterfeitings and the like. Alaric, a leader of the barbarians near the fall of Rome, was approached by one of the Roman soldiers who said proudly,even arrogantly, to Alaric that Alaric and his following had best run quickly for the Roman army was vast and extremely large. Alaric with head cocked slightly and eyes keenly glaring responds<br />simply 'the more the wheat, the easier the scythe.'<br /><br />As a small and wise board, always in conversation and attuned to the signs of the times, we should continue to be safe from the scythe.<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry

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Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p> I like Chads' ideas... Although I cringe at the thought of resubmitting our graded cards, I would be pleased just knowing the things were "AUT" with a qualifier of Altered (if need be). Of course, for sellers, far more work would be needed in close-up scanning and answering condition inquiries.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I agree with Barry that Corey's idea, however sensible, will not catch on. Present grading systems are already deeply entrenched, especially with set registries etc., and if anything there may be a movement towards more false precision (.5s) than away from it. As for better graders, that would be great, but (assuming for argument's sake) some people here would be better than some of the present graders, how many of you are going to give up your day jobs to go grade cards all day? I am guessing the major grading services train their graders as well as they know how.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Leon wrote: "BTW, anyone that doesn't think a lot, if not most, very high end, 90-100 year old cards are untampered with, is a little bit naive...imo...best regards"<br /><br />I do think a lot of high grade pre-WW1 cards are tampered with. However, I did not think it was most. I define most as "a good majority, greater than 70%". I'm not sure if Leon was thinking along those lines, but his statement did surprise me, maybe he is using a different definition. Does everyone think this also? Maybe I am a bit naive. That's why I'd like to hear what others have to say on percentages.

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>If we took numerical grades off the cards, then, yeah, the seller would have to supply better scans, be more attentive to questions and make sure they kept their reputation in the highest regard. Of course, I think that should be happening already. I bring ebay up because, what I'd like to see them do as a way of establishing seller reputations, is show me only the feedback the seller has for the category I'm shopping in. I only want to know how buyers of baseball cards feel about a seller, not what buyers of the seller's bulk packaged swizzle sticks think. I know they won't, but it doesn't hurt to air this stuff out. Maybe somebody from Google is lurking around here. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p>Regardsless if Leon meant 70% I think without question pressing, soaking etc.. to get that high grade card is being done to acheive the better grade ie... 7,8,amd 9's no question. Exception's to the rule's apply. But I strongly agree with 70% or more..I wouldn't take the risk, but someone knowing what there doing could cash in easy... My 2 cents.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>If "alterations" include soaking that many people find acceptable (without more), then I think the 70 percent for NM and better is very likely accurate.

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Posted By: <b>Griffin's</b><p>I don't think it's limited to high end cards. I've seen and heard of a lot of 1's and 2's getting cleaned up and becoming 4's and 5's (or 50's and 60's if you prefer). With the surge in prices the motivation is there, and the skills of those doing the altering have exceeded the ability of those doing to the grading to detect it.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Chad- what you are suggesting is exactly how I conducted my business in the 1980's and 1990's. I was forced to grade my cards as accurately as possible because that was the only way I could keep my customers coming back. I'm sure I made some mistakes but I took alot of pride in learning how to be precise. Today, because all the cards I sell are graded by a third party service, I'm not embarrassed to admit I barely look at them and if they are misgraded or altered I probably wouldn't catch it. Since my word versus the grader's word is meaningless, I've lost interest in a skill I developed over the years. That's just a fact of life.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>My assumption was only more often than not, for the altered high end cards, in holders. A 50.1% is all I was actually referring to although it is in fact probably higher. It would be very interesting to take 100 PSA 8 and PSA 9 T206's and give them to an impartial expert, like Derek Grady (though his roots were at SGC I am sure he could be unbiased today) and see how many he thinks are tampered with. My guess is over 50%. Go set registry !! ....for the record I am in the camp of thinking that says taking something off of a card that was not mfg'd there is not altering. It is debatable though....regards

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Posted By: <b>David Davis</b><p>It doesn't make sense to resubmit cards. If cards that have been altered are still getting through the cracks, what are the graders/authenticators going to do different for cards that have already been graded?<br /><br />Stick to buying raw cards and buying cards from someone that you know to be knowledgable and trustworthy. Anything else is gambling.<br /><br />For those that collect high grade cards, live with the knowledge that at some point your collection may be significantly less valued than now. At some point, there will be a technology developed that can tell if a card has been altered, be it through trimming, soaking, removal of writing, etc.

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Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>I recently sold cards on Ebay for the first time and I didn't even bother describing the graded stuff. The raw stuff I took pains to describe the cards flaws but it seemed pointless to point out that the SGC 40 I was selling was actually a hell of a lot nicer than the PSA 4 or that the PSA 3 presented better than the SGC 40. It's an unfortunate buy product of third party grading. I still think there can be a happy medium and I still think that we haven't gotten there yet.<br /><br />--Chad

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>and one we've had before. What we have right now is merely a perfect storm of old issues coming up coincidentally at the same time. <br /><br />The fake Wagner is ubiquitous to our hobby. What I find reassuring about that situation is that no one with any real qualifications or experience is participating. Absent the level of expertise and shared knowledge out there, I shudder to think of what might be happening. <br /><br />As for the altered slabs, I don't know enough about the specifics to comment, so I won't, other than to say that we all know of WIWAG and it is quite likely that there are slabs floating around out there that have been tampered with. Buy the card, not the slab. <br /><br />Turning to the more general issue of high grade cards and slabs, I am not surprised to hear rumblings to the effect that more and more folks are rejecting top tier slabbed cards as altered. The money is too great for it not to attract a sophisticated crimimal element. I collect mid-grade and low grade stuff due to affordability and often lack of higher grade materials. I do think, as I've said in the past, that we need to move closer to the art model w/r/t legitimate conservation of cards. Cleaning and removal of foreigh substances, properly performed, simply is not a sore spot for me given what is accepted practice in the art world. <br /><br />Finally, on the sky-is-falling market woes, not quite. I see prices on cards continuing to surge forward, the economy is decent as it affects folks like us (upper middle class and wealthy) who comprise the majority of those who continue to collect vintage cards, and there are many, many folks out there who would jump on vintage materials if there was a modest correction in the price structure. I'd be far more worried about the real estate market taking a dump than about N172s falling through the floor.

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>"Someone mentioned that many of these card altering shenanigans were taking place in the 1990's, and that was certainly true. The response was the advent of the grading services, which were formed not only to grade but to detect these alterations. Now it is coming to light with greater frequency that altered cards are getting encapsulated anyway. What's the defense to that? Do cards that were graded five years ago have to be resubmitted to be looked at with ever greater scrutiny? I don't know the answer, but it is a serious concern. With regard to Rhys's post, what can the network54 community do to help clean up parts of the hobby that need policing? We are a pretty powerful and educated group, and there must be something a large field of experts can do similar to what Rhys suggested." - Barry Sloate<br /><br />Barry, <br /><br />You want reform Barry, you are actually one of the few people that could help push the effort. I have known for some time that the Wagner is trimmed. As many know, there is an East Coast Collector with before and after pictures. Bill and Barry also mentioned first hand knowledge of the trimming. Bill also mentioned that McNeil was aware the card was trimmed and insenuaded that Dave Hall is aware. There are obviously other (likely Mastro + others) with first hand knowledge of the trimming. <br /><br />In any case, the hobby icon is altered. Until this is publically disclosed and reform is taken, then fraud and deception will certainly continue. I have felt for some time that it was acceptable to allow the trimmed icon to remain a lie with the general public for the good of the hobby. I no longer feel that is appropriate. I personally have absolutely no hobby clout, so someone like yourself would have to write an article detailing the true history of the Wagner. You talk about reform, but are you really prepared to stand up for it? <br /><br />Final question, do you still submit to PSA knowing first hand that they knowingly have a trimmed Wagner and present it as the icon of the hobby? <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>To most of us this should come as no surprise, we have continually posted graded cards that are questionable. I don't think the sky is falling it just seems that better education would suite buyers. <br /><br />What I think is great is that someone actually bought the cards and on the holders.<br /><br />As far as people not submitting to PSA because they have graded a trimmed Wagner, that will not happen as long as people are blindly paying the high prices for PSA cards.<br /><br />I personally have never and will never submit to PSA because of their past history.

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Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p>maybe in the future we'll value cards by their character instead of how sterile they are. <br /><br />if someone wants a vintage card that looks like it just came out of a pack, why not just buy a reprint?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>dd</b><p>I prefer paper(or cardboard) to plastic.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>To FYS: Yes, I have heard for years that the T206 Wagner graded PSA-8 has been trimmed. However, I have never had the opportunity to see the before and after pictures firsthand. Therefore, it is inappropriate for me to be the one to come forward. For those few who have seen them, they are free to respond if they are willing to deal with the controversy. As far as submitting cards myself, I have sent a few to PSA but for the most part I use SGC. I feel they are the most accurate of the big three.

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>Barry, <br /><br />I think you know the first hand parties involved with the Wagner trimming and maybe you could contribute/spearhead the complete truth in an article in Old Cardboard. <br /><br />You could be the pioneer in changing the face or reforming the grading industry.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I've gotten in enough trouble over the years. I think I will defer and leave that story for someone else.

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>"I've gotten in enough trouble over the years. I think I will defer and leave that story for someone else." - Barry Sloate<br /><br />Then why start a thread asking how to help the situation if you are unwilling to take measure. <br />

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Posted By: <b>John_B_California</b><p>I know this topic has come up many times before, but I have to play devil's advocate when it comes to the amount of trimmed, altered or otherwise "bad" pre WWII PSA graded cards.<br /><br />I'm looking at the PSA population numbers right now for T206. <br /><br />There's been 62,000 cards graded to date. There's only 252 PSA 9's. There's been 13 10's. That's less than 1/2 of 1% of all cards submitted. If altered and trimmed cards are so prevalent, why are they so rare?<br /><br />For the T205 set, there's been 14,273 cards submitted for grading. There's 175 8's, 4 9's, and no 10's. <br /><br />For T204 Ramly, there's virtually nothing in high grade.<br /><br />If I knew nothing about cards, those numbers look pretty normal in terms of distribution. I can imagine 14,000 extremely delicate T205's in circulation; the bulk will be low grades, and they'll get rarer and rarer as the grades up. It's just the law of averages. The numbers are skewed because of breakouts and re-submissions. Even if the real number is 8,000 or 10,000, I still don't see it.<br /><br />I agree there's a very strong incentive for some people to alter cards given the strength of the market. And obviously the pop numbers are imperfect. But I wonder, if it's so easy to alter these cards, why aren't there more of them? <br /><br />The Set Registry has created huge demand for low pop commons. In the '33 Goudey set, low pop commons can reach $10,000-$15,000. The pop numbers have barely moved for some of the rarest cards as prices have exploded. Again, why aren't more 7's being created into 8's?<br /><br />It's inevitable that some graded cards are altered. But over 50%? That's a strong allegation. I don't see it in the numbers at all. Alot of very desirable pre WWI cards have not been graded in high grades. A mint T205 Cobb would be a holy grail, but it doesn't exist. Alot of HOF'ers in T206 have never gotten a Mint 9. Some cards have always been rare (T206 Green Cobb).<br /><br />There's tremendous demand for PSA 8 T206's. People would die for a straight NM-MT set. But some cards don't even exist in an 8. Some show only 1 or 2 copies in NM 7.<br /><br />Statistically, what numbers jump out as an anomaly? <br /><br />John

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Damned if you do, damned if you don't.<br /><br />Barry, you're our silent heretic for the vintage baseball collecting religion...<br /><br />I wouldn't do it unless I had irrefutable corroborating evidence. Even if I did have this evidence I'm not sure I'd like to be the one to "drop a dime" on some of the people that might be involved. <br /><br />This has been discussed a few times and still NOBODY has done a thing about it. Where do you start? 60 Minutes or some other news show that might want to pick up the story? It'd be an interesting story but I'd hate for my wife to hear about it because she'd say something like... "hey, just how much do you spend on that stuff?" I don't think I want her to come to the realization that we eat cat food because I like card board.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The thread was about a general trend in the hobby, and observations made by collectors who handle high grade cards on a regualr basis (which I don't). It was not meant to single out a particular card. And to repeat, without concrete evidence it would be a story based on hearsay. Yes, I have my personal doubts about the card, but that is not sufficient and wouldn't hold up well in an article.

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Posted By: <b>ScottIngold</b><p> Then why start a thread asking how to help the situation if you are unwilling to take measure,<br /><br /><br />Interesting statement.... As someone in the hobby who does try to buy the best i can afford. I would certainly like to hear how this could possibly happen with the knowledge of some of the leaders in our hobby.<br /><br />I mean the gist of what Frank and Barry are saying is that PSA and others know for a fact that the 8 Wagner is trimmed.<br /><br />Please correct me if i have misunderstood.

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>Where do you start? I don't think you start here on an open forum. I think the words proof and lawsuits come into play dealing with a card of this magnitude. I would be very suprised if anyone would pony up the proof facing lawsuits from the hugh corporations that would be involved if this matter was discussed much further. JMO<br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I have no idea how PSA feels about the matter, but I am sure if we've heard the stories about it they have too.

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Run Forrest, Run...

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>John B. California: That there are relatively few 9-10 T206s in terms of overall percentages does not disprove concerns about altered higher grade cards. First of all, you did not count 7s and 8s. Anything over ex-mt from that era commands big registry bucks and is nice enough looking to be considered for alterations, especially hairline crease removals and stain removals. Add in the 7s and 8s and where are we? Second, you can pull any single set out of the air as an example but accumulate that over all prewar sets of all cards over ex-mt and there is quite a hefty number.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Here's a question I've asked in the past, but never really understood the answer to.<br /><br />As I understand it, the T206 issue and the T213 (at least T213-1 and 2) issues are printed on similar stock, at a similar time in history.<br /><br />If you review the pop reports, here's what you'll see:<br /><br />GRADE T213 T206<br />1-2 62% of total 13% of total<br />3-4 34% of total 44% of total<br />5 3% of total 20% of total<br />6 .3% of total 9% of total<br />7 none graded 5% of total<br />8 .1% of total 2% of total<br />9 none graded .3% of total<br />10 none graded .01% of total<br /><br />Some may say this post belongs in this thread, others may say it doesn't. I'm unsure. But it would be great if someone could offer me a strong explanation as to why it is that you have two strikingly similar issues - one happens to be the most popular pre-war set, and one is not - and a radically different percentage breakdown in the grades for each, with the higher grades more prevalent in the most popular set.<br /><br />Any ideas?<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>Based on those numbers, it looks like about 40% of T206's have been altered to give a higher grade. Similar to what other poster have been saying based on gut feelings without collaborative evidence.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>The suggestion that somehow it is Barry's responsibility to expose the T206 Wagner, and that he is letting down the hobby by not doing so, is ludicrous. At the same time, I think people who assert as a fact that a card of that stature is trimmed (not saying it isn't, I have no idea, only know the rumors) should not only provide their supporting evidence but should put their real name on the post. EDITED TO ADD Statements along the lines of X said Y was aware and insinuated that Z was also aware are not terribly persuasive either.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Tocco</b><p>I'm not familiar enough with the two issues say if it's viable, but the discrepancies in the population of T206 vs. T213 could be partially explained by submission bias. If a common T206 PSA 1 sells for $25 and a common T213 PSA 1 sells for $100, you'll see a higher percentage of all T213's submitted than T206's. Basically what I'm saying is, the pop reports are not necessarily indicative of the spectrum of grades existant in each respective set.<br /><br />Other partial explanations include "finds," factory back-door sets (like the $800k Cracker Jack set), and storage bias (if T213s were traditionally thought to be junk, they may not have been protected as well as T206's). Also, resubmissions could be a factor. If the difference in price between a 1 and a 2 is $50, you won't see many 1's get resubmitted. But you'll see a lot of 5's get resubmitted in hopes of a $1000 value gain if it gets slabbed a 6. I have no doubt that resubmissions are more prevalent in more popular sets.<br /><br />Of course, there are some alterations out there too <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br /><br />Joe

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>"The suggestion that somehow it is Barry's responsibility to expose the T206 Wagner, and that he is letting down the hobby by not doing so, is ludicrous. At the same time, I think people who assert as a fact that a card of that stature is trimmed (not saying it isn't, I have no idea, only know the rumors) should not only provide their supporting evidence but should put their real name on the post."<br /><br />Barry started the thread, I just thought if he was truly concerned, he is a visable enough person that would garner enough respect to write such an article. I in no way said it was Barry's resonsibility or a dissapointment to the hobby if he did not do such a thing personally. It is ludicrous to think that I did. <br /><br />I am a nobody, but I can tell you that Bill Heitman stated on these very boards that the Wagner was trimmed. Leon has stated on these boards that he is 99% sure the card is trimmed based on input he has received personally. I have also received input from well known and respected people that are 100% sure that the card is trimmed. <br /><br />My name is in my e-mail address, which is attached to all of my posts. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Joe, I tend to agree with you in part, and wouldn't imply that a large percentage of altered cards are slipping past the grading services. I think SGC and PSA do a great job weeding out a lot of the "chop shop" type of alterations that happen out there. More sophisticated restoration work done by a professional may be more difficult to detect - I don't know, I'm not a grader - but I'd find it hard to believe that there's a professional restorer out there, working on EX-MT Gabby Street cards.<br /><br />You're also correct in that any night of the week, there are dozens upon dozens of low-grade raw T206s on eBay. Many of those types of cards have never made it into slabs, and likely won't, because most are relatively plentiful and the value is such that grading fees are unnecessary.<br /><br />Also important is the definition of "alteration", which is something that's been discussed here many times. Soaking gunk off the back of a card, to many, is not considered an alteration. Same goes with removing stuff that wasn't on the card in the first place (i.e. pencil marks). So perhaps due to the popularity of T206 in general, people are more likely to soak residue off the back of a card and get a 4, rather than a 1, to realize a higher selling price.<br /><br />Who knows? I just find it interesting.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>FYS, I read your statements "Then why start a thread asking how to help the situation if you are unwilling to take measure" at least as a criticism of Barry, and together with your statement "You could be the pioneer in changing the face or reforming the grading industry," as at least an implicit suggestion that he had some moral responsibility to do so. If I misread you then I am sorry for having done so. As for the card itself, these rumors have been around forever in one form or another, and I just don't think it's wise or productive to state opinions based on other people's opinions or based on hearsay.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>“I think it was Barry Halper that tried to start a National Collectors Club (or something like that) back in the early 80's. Not sure if it ever got off the ground but the mention of a society for vintage baseball card collectors is not new.”<br /><br />Leon I love the idea, we could be the baseball card collector equivalent of the Super Friends. <br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/ebay/large/445.jpg"><br /><br />The only question is what are everyone’s special powers? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"><br /><br />Does this also mean that Jay is our arch enemy/evil nemesis? If so he will need a name and lair agreed? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/77.gif">

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Posted By: <b>edacra</b><p><br />There was a very well known autograph dealer in the late 80's who used to get prime spots at national shows who got in trouble with the law from selling autopen signatures. While the incident got a huge amount of press, the thing that stood out for me at the time was how many dealers admitted they knew the material was fake, and turned the other cheek. By that point, a large number of dealers handling autographs were carrying these fake signatures - and continued to sell them.<br /><br />I can remember feeling a huge amount of resentment towards the people who knew and didn't blow the whistle sooner. It's a matter of integrity, and I think it's the responsibility of anyone who makes a living through sports cards.

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Posted By: <b>John_B_California</b><p>I agree with Joe, that there are probably some biases that explain the different numbers.<br /><br />I've seen far more ungraded T206's at shows and on ebay than T213. There's little incentive to get low graded, low dollar cards slabbed (i.e. 1's, 2's or those with writing). The population skews to the middle for a popular set like T206. There's also been notable T206 finds (southern find), plus the 7's, 8's and 9's are more likely to be cracked and resubmitted, thus artifically inflating their numbers.<br /><br />There's enough holes in some of these early sets to make me question how widespread fraud really is. I remember in the 90's when I subscribed to SCD, there was always an ad in the back looking for high grade T204's (I forget the dealers name off hand). And now to look at the pop report 10-12 years later, and see that there's hardly anything above a 6, it makes me doubt this image I have in my mind of these shady guys trimming and altering cards in the wee hours of the night and then sending them to Newport Beach and fleecing the public. You can't even build that set in a 6.<br /><br />Interesting discussion guys.<br /><br />John

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>“Recently, i was the high bidder on a couple of pre-war graded lots, from a relatively well known auction house ….. both items have been tampered with.<br /><br />What i am suspicious of, is holders being broken open, and cards being switched ……. (~$450) changed hands<br /><br />I spoke with the auction house today, and they didn't seem terribly interested in fixing things.<br />They stated that there was no refund on graded cards”<br /><br /><br />In my opinion, as confidence in the legitimacy of the hobby’s product erodes, collectors will seek out more secure avenues for fun and investment. Brian’s observation is not directed to highly graded rare cards, by any means. Cards in the $200-300 range cross our table more frequently than they formerly did.<br /><br />And further, my thinking is that a seller who does not stand behind the legitimacy of what he sells, has just committed professional suicide.<br /><br /><br />But this is not acceptable to me. I prefer to continue to collect baseball cards. And I know that the longevity of this hobby is predicated on this hobby’s ability to attract new collectors.<br /><br />EBay is a mine field for persons without significant experience. Auction houses do not accept returns on misadvertised phony graded cards? Who would play roulette if the wheel was rigged?<br /><br />We need the card cops. This is getting out of hand. Or maybe I am overreacting. Yes, that must be it. Why should I think that I have a right to get what I pay for?<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I tend to agree with John B. California. While I am sure some altered cards have slipped through, to say or imply that most high-grade old cards in PSA or SGC holders are altered is, in my opinion, a reckless, unsubstantiated generalization that does the hobby no good.<br /><br />And it is not true that they were not around before. I recently picked up a load of old Trader Speaks from the '70's and early '80's. I have been drooling at the prices of old T and E cards listed as NM or Mint. They were there then.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>And I think it is obvious that higher-grade T and E cards are submitted at a greater rate than low grade ones for obvious reasons. In other words, I think a much larger percentage of the T206 red portrait Cobbs in NM or better have been submitted than the percentage of those in lower grades. This also skews the numbers, though high grade cards from that era still make up an incredibly low percentage of graded cards from the era - even though they are submitted at a relatively much higher rate.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>FYS- and I wish I knew your name- I've long suspected that the PSA-8 Wagner is not what it appears to be, but to write an article you need to have something to say and a point of view. My opinion could be expressed in a single sentence, and then where do I go from there? I also can't say "a friend of a friend saw the pictures" when I in fact didn't. That's hearsay, not evidence. It would end up being a poor article. And as I said, I have no ax to grind. The owner will probably keep it for many years, and I know he is proud of it. He also does good things, taking it to schools and sharing it with fellow collectors. Why ruffle feathers under those circumstances? Now Leon and Mr. Mint posing as the Ambiguously Gay duo-there's a story with some meat to it.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Just to respond to Jim B's last statement- all those NR MT cards you saw in the Trader Speaks would likely only grade EX or EX-MT today, so that may not be your proof.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>For the record I personally have NO first hand experience that the PSA8 Wagner is trimmed. I have been told by at least 5 folks, whom I greatly respect, that have said they have first hand knowledge (seen pics) that the card is not good. I am not positive as it's hearsay...but from trusted sources. Those sources have remained silent publicly. Bill Heitmann did come on here and give a first hand account of his take on it. <br /><br />John- I guess I look pretty good in blue...but don't think I could ever be as big of a personality as Mr.Mint. <br /><br />Concerning remaining anonymous on the board I would caution folks about the rules......so far so good....<br /><br />As for trimmed high end cards in holders....maybe 50% is too much but the fact remains that I do believe there are a lot of them that have been altered....that's still my opinion based on everything I know....regards

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McHugh</b><p>My take on this. I agree with Jim and John. Yes there may be altered cards in holders but over 50 percent no way. From what i have seen there are alot of OVERGRADED cards in 8, 9, 10 holders . The population reports do not lie. My guess using t206 as an example is that cards in 7-10 holders have each been submitted 3 or more times to get the bump. Which would make the total of t206 7-10 cards one third of what you see. Also the t204 example is a very good one. I feel overgraded cards lead people to buy the holder and not the card.

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Posted By: <b>Andy</b><p>Do the major grading companies have any internal quality control systems in place to test their graders abilities? For example, many companies will hire internet security firms to actually try to break through their security and access their systems. Thereby learning where the holes are and what they need to do to tighten up their security. <br /><br />Would those of you who deal with graded cards feel more comfortable if the grading companies were to hire some people to create very convincing fakes to be submitted to test their own people's ability to spot them? If the cards were graded and slabbed, then they could be pulled and used as examples to further educate the graders. What about hiring people to alter some cards for the same testing? Just a thought I had. Please let me know if I'm crazy this afternoon. Thanks.

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Posted By: <b>Rick (calleocho)</b><p>A good idea would be to look at more mature hobbies and how they have dealt with similar problems.<br /><br />Coins would be a good start<br /><br />I also think increasing the fees for grading dramatically could help ...dont know how popular that would be.<br /><br />However ..the hobby will evolve ...some in it wont ..but thats life<br /><br />Im not that pessimistic about it though...most collectors are quite passionatte and do try to learn more everyday about the hobby, the cards etc.<br /><br />I also see collectors pay more for eye appeal than technical grades and most collectors also realize that a slab while helpful its not the ultimate judge of a card's authenticity or quality.

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>Barry, <br /><br />FYS = Mike Uhl. If you click on the FYS name in my posts, it will automatically open an e-mail window to mikeuhl@comast.net. <br /><br />As a 26 year long collector, it does sadden me that many with first hand knowledge of the Wagner situation turn a blind eye. No, I am not talking about Barry. I think educra made a good point that as an individual or collector, there can be some resentment when some of the people that are admired (hero's if you will) in the hobby seem to do nothing. That is easy to say when you are on the outside of the equation. I am sure it would not be much fun to be the person that comes forth. The only publication that could pull off an investigative article, which cooperation from first hand observers, would be Old Cardboard, in my opinion. Tuff Stuff and SCD would not touch it due to lost advertising revenues. SGC and Beckett would not touch it due to the hypercompetitive onslaught that would take place afterwards. <br /><br />In any case, I would like to see the truth published. I think it will force improved buyback programs, consistency, examination procedures and introduce some additional technology to the field of grading. It could also potentially begin the end or come clean to a chapter of the more shady side of the hobby. <br /><br />Just at this years National, I was able examine a slabbed A&G NM/MT card that under 100X magnification, glue beads could be seen from the rebacking of the card. Higher magnification is just one additional technology that could become more common place, if some public event warranted this sort of additional help.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>I wouldnt have guessed !

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If I am going to be the arch-villians, I want an evil platypus as my sidekick.<br /><br />Bhys is correct, it's time this hobby followed the lead of al other collectibles fields and start a national organization to police itself. I am sure more than a few board members would be willing to be part of a board to run the organization. I know I would, and I would be kick ass and taking names.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>This is a much-needed post but I think that it has gotten too negative. The stock market analogy was made earlier and since I ran a Hedge Fund for many years, I will try to contest, the draconian parallel. In my opinion, the entire universe of sports cards is extremely self-correcting and not in need of a federal reserve to influence speculation and the lack thereof. I think all of us who ever bought a card produced after 1980 know what I am talking about. With regard to the high-grade or PSA 9 market, these cards have been in decline for a while now. Most post-war PSA 9 non-rookie cards are falling precipitously. Some will point to low-pop commons as an inflated market and there I agree with them but in many cases, those prices are a function of one or two individuals dueling it out. <br /><br />Back to the stock market analogy and March 2000, many people bought blind into stock analyst's strong buy recommendations and were decimated but those who did their own research were able to avoid the Info space’s. I think the same due diligence is prudent in this business. When a collector forks out large amounts of money for a piece of cardboard, homework is necessary. What is homework? Its all been said before, following realized prices, buying the card not the holder, avoiding low pop high-grade cards that are more susceptible to volatility. Many board members have gone to the low to mid grade to hedge against buying significantly altered cards, which might be the reason many of the 2-5 HOF pre-war market is so red-hot, and the aforementioned post-war 9 market is dying. Which proves the point that, as is the case with the stock market, money does not leave but rather if rotates from sector to sector or sports card issue.<br /><br />With regard to the % of trimmed slabbed cards, I have had many cards that are fresh from a one-owner collection that will never grade with PSA. These are beautiful mint condition cards that are of all sizes that have provenance. Sometimes its the "kiss of death" to have a mint condition card because the automatic assumption is that it is trimmed. I would much rather have cards that have wear on them consistent to handling opposed to un-circulated ones.<br /><br />Just as individual stock investors now have accounts at Schwab or Ameritrade, baseball card investors must research the cards they buy and use the slab only to limit downside. Once a card is in a holder the owner is much better off because their will be a buyer of a graded card at % of SMR. Therefore, graded baseball cards are not going away and are not all soiled cardboard but rather a stop loss.<br /><br />A little non sequitur but hopefully it lightens the mood a tad.<br /><br />Charlie<br />

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>If folks would collect cards, instead of slabs, then people wouldn't be so inclined to trim, soak, wash, stretch, bleach, and otherwise tamper with the cards.<br /><br />Seriously, the love and desire of the slabs and the numbers, "9" or "80", that is what prompts the cheats to tamper with the cards.<br /><br />Knowing what you're buying helps avoid this mess. If you hold an E145-1 and an E145-2 (1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack cards) in your hand, then you can better understand the card. Same for a T206. I vividly remember holding a Wagner. Not a slab, a card. And I am certain if you guys above held this "new Wagner" you could instantly tell, just by feel, that it was doctored.<br /><br />So I think you guys are stuck with the tampered cards as long as you collect slabs. Honesty, isn't tampering and bleaching and all more prevelant nowadays, now that we have slabbing?

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Frank,<br />I respectfully disagree with your statement,<br />"If folks would collect cards, instead of slabs, then people wouldn't be so inclined to trim, soak, wash, stretch, bleach, and otherwise tamper with the cards."<br /><br />I think it is precisely because this was so prevalent that the graded card industry took off. It gave people confidence that these things were not happening to the cards they were buying.<br />JimB<br />

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Posted By: <b>ramram</b><p>....collectors will realize that beauty lies in the content and quality of the image and not in the condition of the mount. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>. . .

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Posted By: <b>nbbrazil</b><p>"....collectors will realize that beauty lies in the content and quality of the image and not in the condition of the mount. "<br /><br />that someday will come when our society refuses to idolize movie stars and pay more attention to teachers. <br /><br />Very interesting discussion. As someone mentioned above, grading was created in response to the increased presence of counterfeit/overpriced/altered cards in a booming market (mainly popular pre and post war cards and popular modern cards (mcgwire, jordan, gretzky)). In an ideal sense, grading eliminates the scum of this hobby by putting dealers and buyers on the same level. Buyers know the condition and authenticity of the cards they purchase. Dealers, previously driven by the need to accumulate profit to meet overhead AND take a tidy sum home, will need to jump on the grading bandwagon in order to survive in this internet auction world. Prices of cards will trend toward the basics of supply and demand...and not on the whim of beckett, SCD or dealers at shows. Therefore, previously overgraded and unauthentic cards will no longer be their tools of profit and novice collectors will no longer be their prey.<br /><br />But, unfortunately, two aspects make the grading market not as perfect as one would think it to be.<br /><br />1.) Grading is subjective. On the whole, i think grading from the big 3 are consistent. But, on the whole is not 100%...or even 95%. Weve seen numerous examples of overgraded and undergraded cards from all companies. This, of course, forces the buyer to "purchase the card, not the slab." But, by doing this, we defeat the basic purpose of grading....confidence in the condition and authenticity of the card. When i buy a PSA 3, it better damn well be a PSA 3!! But, as weve seen, that's not always the case. Someone above mentioned a 0.5 grading system to measure the margin of error in grading. Well, i doubt that will happen because as mentioned above the current system that is in place is already established and entrenched in the minds of collectors. Additionally, the margin of error you see in such things as surveys and political polls are statistical by nature. The margin of error is a function of the variability associated with the sampling design. In grading, margin of error is based on what??....the subjectivity of the grader and nothing else. That impreciseness is not something you can quantify.<br /><br />2.) Alteration has become more sophisticated. Soaking, fine precision trimming, etc have likely become more prevalant in our hobby today. This has been the pre grading countefeiters' response to grading. The counterfeiter thinks "Ok, so these companies are going to ensure the condition and authenticity of cards. Well, i'll just one up them and advance the tools of my trade." Additionally, you have such things as slab swapping, WIWAG, tampering and other terms that define the increased focus on trying to get cards in higher conditioned slabs.<br /><br />I fully believe that our hobby will not be going to hell in a handbasket. I support grading in its idealogical sense. But, since grading is tied to human subjectivity..it will have its flaws. That's why a place like this...an open forum where collectors from all around the world can get advice...is very important.

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Posted By: <b>Martin Neal</b><p>Although I am sure that many high grade t206s are altered, I disagree that the percentage is very high. The "southern find" in 1989 provided over 1000 high grade t206s to the population report. Of couse there is no way of knowing how many of these found their way to the Psa's population report, but if they were all graded by Psa, they would represent nearly 20 percent of all cards graded Psa 7 or higher. I have several of the cards from that find (graded 8) and I have heard that many graded 9. I don't profess to know the details of this find, but if anyone knows Marco who I think runs the Chantilly show, he would be able to elaborate on this subject. He was one of the 4 pricipals who originally purchased this group. Ted, you may know him personally and ask him to visit the board and explain his take on high grade t206s. Statistically, of the million plus of t206s that have survived, the number of cards in the psa 8 or 9 range looks reasonable. Personally, I would love to hear the true story of this find and it keeps me hoping that another one will surface in the future.

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Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>hi everyone,<br />i agree there are altered cards that are in slabs. no question.<br /><br />however, when leon (hey leon) says 50% of high grade cards 100ish years old are altered, i have to ask.....then when does the age of a high grade card become a non-issue? <br />-are most high grade diamond stars altered?<br />-are most high grade 1952 topps altered?<br />-are most high grade 1962 topps altered?<br />-1972?<br />-1982?<br />-1992?<br />-2002?<br /><br />when does it become acceptable that a high grade example could have survived?<br /><br />and if it's possible for there to be surviving high grade 2002 issue, why must we think that all high grade 1912 issues are altered? <br />some yes, for sure, but a high percentage like 50....no way. <br /><br />i would also add that there are plenty of low and midgrade cards that are altered, some reside in slabs and some do not. but altering cards is not exclusively a high grade phenomenon.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>My guess of 50.1% of high grades in slabs as being altered might be high, as I have already recanted elsewhere. I do find it interesting that many of the folks that say "it ain't so" have high grade cards in slabs. Kind of like protecting PSA when you have a large investment in their slabs? Regardless, if it's only 10% (and I will always think that that percentage is low, based on what I have been told and seen) it's still too many. Heck, we can't even get past the first card graded by the almighty PSA. But maybe I am just out to get that big bad slabbing company. Maybe there's no issue at all and PSA has very experienced graders....and about Santa.....