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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>im new here and im hearing that 1863 Jordan & Co. are the first baseball cards you know the 4 card set but then some people dont consider thats a baseball card they think a Cartes De visite isnt a baseball car which that it is i need some help here these cards are the oldest baseball cards that i have ever found are these really the oldest baseball cards? if not tell me if there are other ones and if you have links to the website where you found it that would help and is the 1863 "Grand Match At Hoboken" Benefit card Of Harry Wright really a baseball card or not? thanks

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Posted By: <b>David McDonald</b><p>Try here first: <br /><a href="http://lilt.ilstu.edu/golson/punctuation/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://lilt.ilstu.edu/golson/punctuation/</a>

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Posted By: <b>Sean</b><p>i dont get it what am i supposed to do in it<br /><br /><br />i get it now just because i dont have good grammar it means you have to find a website for me I HATE GRAMMAR im only in 6th Grade

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The Hoboken Match is generally not considered a baseball card, as it was used as a ticket or pass. There are other Hoboken cards, but it is no known that the folks pictured are baseball players. They may have been cricket players.

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Posted By: <b>Bobby</b><p>David,<br /><br />Way over Sean's head it's to easy. I really like it though.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Tough crowd.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>A kid doing a school paper once asked me what was the oldest baseball card. Assuming he didn't want to hear baseball card classification theory, I said it was the 1869 Peck & Snyder Reds.

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Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>and then there is a great sense of humor<br />You sir, have both!<br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The first baseball card, to me, is the 1868 Atlantics card...The first professional card is the 1869 Peck and Snyder Team card, as they were all paid. This is very "relative" and everyone has their own opinion. The other ticket-cards etc...could be cards to some folks, but not me. Best regards<br /><br />edited to add "See mom- Did you notice all of the punctuation I used?"

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I have a card from 1861-64 that features Henry Chadwick standing alongside members of the Brooklyn Resolutes and the Philadelphia Athletics from the National Association of Baseball Players.<br /><br />I like to think of this card as the first baseball card...<br /><br />but I can understand why the Peck & Snyders are "more" like cards since they have advertising on the back.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jackgoodman</b><p>Hey Bobby,<br /><br />Before you make fun of Sean, It's "too" easy would have been the better way to go.<br /><br />Just kidding around with you. Please no flames.<br /><br />Jack

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>Hal Lewis do you have pictures for that Henry Chadwick card? that would be very useful if you do if you dont try to get some thanks.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>and im new here and why am i being make fun of im only 11 years old

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Welcome aboard. I have a daughter that is 9. Don't worry about us old guys....we're mostly harmless. You, my little friend, are the next, next generation of vintage baseball card collectors. For the record there are many adults that don't write as well as you do. Keep on posting on our board....I will make sure us old guys don't upset you too much.....This is fair warning guys......

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>If it's a Peck & Synder we're calling the first baseball card, then I would think the honor would go to the P&S Jim Creighton, as it probably predates the Atlantics by a good several years. If it's CDVs, then it would be the Brooklyn Atlantics, which dates to 1860 or 1861. The Resolutes/Philadelphia (which also has in the image Henry Chadwick) that Hal refers to most likely dates to around 1864.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Hey Sean,<br />If you stick with this forum, you'll notice wrong usages of the words there, their, they're, site, sight, to, too, et al., and some of us are decades older than you, So don't let it throw you. You'll also find a wealth of information, so stay with it, my friend.

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Posted By: <b>V117Collector</b><p>Sean,<br /><br />Don't worry about any comments that might offend you, it's kinda like elementary school (very immature), but it's fun to read' to see what people have to say!<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>thanks guys but i still need that picture or pictures that refers to Hal Lewis's Card it will be really cool and nice if you get me a picture of it thanks guys bye

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>hey corey could you get me that picture of that 1860 to 1861 Card that would be very helpful if you do i just need those 2 pictures because i thought the 1863 Jordan And Co Were the oldest cards and the card that refers to Hal if its really 1864 than Jordan And Co would be older than that card so <br /><br /><br />.Just get me those 2 pics that i want<br /><br />.and is that card really from 1864 i need the exact date okay<br /><br />Thank You Very much Guys You Rock<br /><br />oh yea whats the year of that Peck And SNyder Jim Creignton Card or whatever was his last name i need to know that too imi only 11 so i dont know alot about this 1860's baseball cards

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>is no 11 year old.<br />Poor grammar absolutely, but his writing uses stream of consciousness that doesn't fit at all with an eleven year old's processes and writing methodology.<br />His word choices and sentence construction point to a semi-literate adult, or immigrant with only a passing aquaintance with the school system.<br /><br />No snobbery here, just don't like impostors.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>yea i am my birthday is June 7th 1995

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Posted By: <b>George H. Counter</b><p>Why do you need those scans so bad?<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>because i want too see how it looks like

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>hey corey is this the brooklyn atlantics card you were talking about from 1860 to 1861<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/images/tlc0470.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br />actually i think this is the hal's card because the year of this card is 1865 sooo hal when you read this tell me if this is your card you were talking about okay thanks again

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Posted By: <b>Zach Rice</b><p>The card or cardboard with baseball images on it posted above pictures the 1865 Atlantics.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>yea i just noticed that too but thanks for saying it

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>hey corey Peck And Snyder Began in 1868-`1870 right so Jordan And Co Would Be older than right tell me if this is right

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Posted By: <b>Zach Rice</b><p>Though I don't know the exact year that Peck and Snyder started, I know it was before 1868. What many consider the first card was produced by Peck and Snyder in 1863, featuring Jim Creighton.

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Posted By: <b>Harry Wallace (HW)</b><p>Hi Corey,<br /><br />I remember seeing a picture of the Creighton Peck an Snyder in a small book. Maybe it was Rucker's, I am not sure.<br /><br />Is it possible to date that card? I was always under the impression that it was a "tribute" card made sometime after his death.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>if it really is from 1863 than it would tie with Jordan And Co Since Both of them were made in 1863 <br /><br /><br /><br />BUT ARE YOU SURE IT IS FROM 1863

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>My earliest baseball card, er, I mean my earliest crickett CDV:<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151086066.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>And here is my ex cricket CdV prior to encapsulation<br /><br />(x) removed

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Hey Sean, what are these Jordan & Company cards? I haven't heard of them before.<br /><br />P.s. Don't worry about people joking around with you. We joke around with each other.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>thats cool nice card you got there

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>Jordan And Company has very little information ill try to do my best Jordan And Company is a 4 Card Set it was made in 1863 the most famous card from the set is the Harry Wright Card that Keith olbermann has as we speak by the way if you have a Standard catalog Of Baseball cards than it will talk about 1863 Jordan And Co and it shows a picture of the harry wright card and the other 3 cards in the set if anybody has a link about jordan and co that would be useful because i hope that helped you

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>wait Jimmy you have that William Crossley Card

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>The name of the photographer's studio owner was Andrew Jordan.<br />Not sure if he was a photographer, but he was the manager of Abraham Bogardus studio earlier.<br /><br />It's not a 4 card "set"<br />There are some pose variations as well as some without the "match" imprint.<br />There is no data available that sugests that William Crossley or William Hammond played baseball before or after the "grand match" date. (Both were very good cricket players in their time)<br />Not sure about Sam Wright baseball activities and guess you already know the answer to this question about both Harry and George Wright.<br /><br />Visit the NYPL digital collection for some images or ask Barry Sloate who had two "commons" for sale a while ago.<br /><br /><br />You can start from there...<br /><br />Edited to add that the William Crossley CdV isn't in my collection anymore.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Please call me at my office. I would like to speak with you...my number is 972-774-7032...I do need to discuss a few things about the board with you.<br /><br />thanks....leon .. aka moderator dude<br /><br />edited to add that I find it a little suspicious that an 11 yr old has the email addy of "Dealer221@aol.com" unless it's a parent's email...regardless I have emailed Sean also and am waiting for correspondence....

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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>--

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>The Jordan & Co.s "cards" in my view are not baseball cards because they (i) were issued as tickets for a championship cricket match (as such I regard them as tickets) and (ii) depict players in cricket attire (so if cards would be cricket cards). With that said, they nonetheless are great items, just not baseball cards. Images of the c. 1863 P&S Creighton and the 1860/1861 Brooklyn Atlantics CDV can be found in Stephen Wong's book "Smithsonian Baseball". The Creighton image can also be found in Mark Rucker's book on CDVs. I would post them if I could, but I am one of the more technologically inept members of this Board.<br /><br />To respond to the question of the date of the card, it was issued after Creighton's death (which was in 1862). The verso of the card is a tribute to Creighton and leaves no doubt he had died. The 1863 year of issuance is not represented as being exact, just a best approximation from people knowledgeable about Peck & Synders who have seen the card.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>hope you learn a lot....

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Hey Corey, I was in a bookstore and looked for the first time at the Smithsonian book. For those who haven't seen the book, there's a chapter devoted to Corey's 1800s baseball collection.

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>Maybe he's not allowed to make long distance phone calls?<br /><br />Just playing with ya moderator dude. Joe<br><br>A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>Corey, I agree with your analysis.<br />I do have a question about item (i) <br /><br />"were issued as tickets for a championship cricket match (as such I regard them as tickets)"<br /><br />I think you are partially correct on this one.<br />Can't remember right now, but one of the matches (The last one) was to be a baseball one and it was postponed. Not sure if it was played on a later date.<br />I remember reading the newspaper articles from those dates at the NYPL but memory fails me right now.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Even assuming the last match was to be a baseball match, the fact that the "cards" were issued as tickets of admission to me doesn't change the fact that they are still tickets. Also, because the players are still attired in their cricket garb (i.e., they didn't reshoot the images to show them in baseball attire), if cards, I still would regard them as cricket cards.

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Posted By: <b>Jimmy Leiderman</b><p>Corey, I agree with you.<br /><br />All of the subjects pictured were cricket players at the time and they were dressed like so.<br /><br />Since I'm not a baseball "card" collector, I don't mind how are they called, tickets, cards, etc.<br /><br />To me, they are simply a bunch of cricket players CdVs that happened to be used as tickets to a series of games. <br />The fact that one of the games was meant to be a baseball one, that both Harry and George are pictured, that Harry was closely related to the match organization and the ancient date on them, makes them pretty interesting.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Amazingly, I learned today from the PSA pop report that the first bb cards were issued in 1800:<br /><br />1800 N508 SUB ROSE CIGARETTES WOMEN BASEBALL PALYERS <br />CARD NO NAME VARIETY 1-2 3-4 TOTAL <br /> Total: 1 1 7 <br /> 2 THE PITCHER WOMEN BASEBALL PLAYERS 1 0 2 <br /> 4 CHANCE FOR DBL.PLAY WOMEN BASEBALL PLAYERS 0 1 2 <br /> 5 "DOUBLE HIM UP!" WOMEN BASEBALL PLAYERS 0 0 1 <br /> 7 CATCHER WOMEN BASEBALL PLAYERS 0 0 1 <br /> 8 THE RIGHTFIELDER WOMEN BASEBALL PLAYERS 0 0 1 <br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Sean (hi Sean) and I just spoke. I must say he is a grown up 11 yr. old. His dad knows he's on the chatboard. As long as nothing is naughty, it's ok. I asked about cards and his earliet is 1956. He sounded a little timid as I think I might be a little scary (to him). So I would again like to welcome our youngest board member, Sean. This is also a good lesson in why we do need to be cognizant of what we say, and the audience in cyberspace. regards

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>1956? Quick, someone send him a t206!

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Sean,<br /> Email me an adress and I will send you a T206 card to jump start your Vintage card collection. Welcome aboard. Be well Brian<br /><br /><br />PS I started collecting when I was 8...

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>im back guys i sended my email address so i could get the t206 card

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>i just have 1 more question what is the exact year date of Hal Lewis's Card you know the Henry Chadwick one thats my last question for now THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCh

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>Brian did you get my address???

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Posted By: <b>David McDonald</b><p>Young Sean,<br /> I apologize to you for my inhospitable crack at the start of this thread. We are all just a bunch of grown-up kids ourselves here at the Net54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum and we have in common with you a passion for baseball and old cardboard. Welcome aboard.<br /><br />David McDonald<br />(11 y.o. in 1961)

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hi all- I've been off the board for a few weeks. As Corey said, the Jordan and Co. cards have nothing at all to do with baseball. They are a set of cricket cards only; the issue is clouded only because Harry Wright is one of the four pictured and he played both baseball and cricket. The baseball game scheduled for the day the cards were to be distributed was rained out and never played, so there is no way to determine if the other three cricket players pictured would have participated. You can argue that these card/tickets were the first of their kind distributed in America, but in no way can they be called baseball cards. I also agree with Corey that the Jim Creighton is arguably the first baseball card, but because all the other Peck and Snyders were issued between 1868-70, his date of 1863 seems too early. I doubt there was a five year gap between the first and second issue. Finally. Hal's Resolutes card, a CdV, was probably issued around 1864, and there are earlier CdV's known, such as the 1861 Atlantics. I still think the definition of what a baseball card is and which is the first depends upon who owns it. Each owner seems to feel that his is the first, and not the other guy's.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Sean,<br /> I have the address and will send the card out the first of next week. Welcome to the wonderful world of Vintage cards. Be well Brian

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>so does this mean Hal's Lewis Card Was Made in The year 1864???

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Virtually no CdV can be dated with certainty save something like the 69 Reds. The date 1864 is approximate, but I feel certain the 1861 Atlantics is at least somewhat earlier.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>thank you so just to make sure Hal's Card he was talking about was an 1864 baseball card/CDV

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>is there a book that talks about Hal's Lewis's Card i know there a book for the 1860/1861 card and i know theres a book for the peck and snyder card but is there a book for Hal's Card???

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>There is a book titled "Baseball Cartes, The First Baseball Cards". It was written by Mark Rucker and published in 1988. It is the most complete compilation of baseball CDVs known. It includes the c. 1864 Resolutes/Philadelphia, as well as five of the seven known Peck & Synders (including the Creighton). It does not picture the 1860/1861 Atlantics because that carte was discovered after the book came out.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The Atlantics is pictured in a back issue of VCBC with an accompanying article.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>thanks guys for the help im gonna get the Smithsonial Baseball Book at my library so i can read it before my little league playoff game

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>CDVs can be dated to a time period due to the style, but rarely to a specific year without specific information. For example, a CDV with square corners almost always dates before 1870. while a CDV with rounded corners dates to later. Interestingly, 1860s CDVs are easy to date due to the distinct mount style, while later ones can be more difficult.<br /><br />During the Civil War era, tax stamps were sometimes put on CDVs. These can date a CDV to a specific year just like with a cigarette pack.<br /><br />There was a case where a collector had a CDV-style card that he felt was the first baseball card. I thought it indeed could be, the problem being it was impossible (as far as I saw) to date it to a specific year. The question wasn't so much if it was a baseball card, but what year it was made.<br /><br />In the earliest years of cards, there are no clear answers. If you're sure of the year, you aren't sure if it's a real baseball card. If you're sure it's a real card, you can't be sure of its exact age. The Peck & Snyders are the first baseball cards I know of that are clearly baseball cards. I have seen few if any early CDVs or other items that are clearly baseball cards. <br /><br />The topic of the origins of anything is confusing for a 51 year old, much less an 11 year old. Starting with this topic is like skipping algebra and starting with calculus II.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>i learned alot from you guys thank you so much guys

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>does anybody have anymore to say or talk about in this discussion because i really like this discussion and i want it to last

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Sean, if someone asks, you can say the Peck & Snyder are the first known baseball cards. There are items that are older, but it is debatable whether or not they are actually baseball cards. <br /><br />With the popularity of PSA graded tickets, the Hoboken Match being classified as a game pass instead of a baseball card may not lower it's financial value.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>yea the value of the 1863 Jordan & Co. Hoboken Harry Wright Card Is 85,000 DOLLARS!!!<br /><br /><br /><br />but isnt the 1860/61 Brooklyn Atlantics card isnt that a card

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>because i sure hope it is <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />P.S. does anybody know if somebody has the 1860/1861 Brooklyn Atlantics CDV Card<br /><br />and how many were made????<br />

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Sean,<br /><br />Even if this discussion doesn't go on, go ahead and bump around a few of the other threads. Many will probably have discussions that interest you, and will help you learn T206's too. I understand you have one on the way.<br /><br />Also, many threads (esp Recent Pickups) have scans of many wonderful cards so you can start seeing what you like. <br /><br />Good luck to you. <br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I must apologize to Sean and All for my earlier overly harsh and obviously wrong assertion regarding Sean's age..............in reading this endless post there can be absolutely no doubt on the topic.<br /><br />Sincerely<br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The 1861 Atlantics CdV was discovered by Mark Rucker in the late 1990's, and I purchased it from him. I later traded it to one of the contributors to this thread. He can step forward if he chooses. To date the card is unique. It pictures both Pete O'Brien as a player, as well as Al Reach. The appearance of both helped us date it to 1860-61.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>do you know who you gave it too

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>oh yea i came back from my little league playoff game and we got slaughtered 14-1 so that means were out this by far means my worst season ever oh yea before my game i picked up Smithsonian Baseball and its great i found the 1860 CDV Brooklyn Atlantics Card i recommend this book

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>hey guys i need more information about the 1860/61 Atlantics CDV Card please give me more info as much as you know about this CDV thank you

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>No votes for the 1871 Warren cabinets? First "set" of professional, major league players.

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Sean,<br /><br />I complement your insatiable curiosity. To answer your question about the 1860/61 Brooklyn Atlantics CDV, here are some tidbits. The carte is the earliest known baseball CDV. There is one known copy. In 1860/61, the Atlantics were one of the two top teams in the country, the other being the Brooklyn Excelsiors (led by James Creighton). The Atlantics were the dynasty team of the 1860's, being either the top or one of the top teams throughout the decade. There are three known images of Atlantics from the 1860s - the carte of 1860/61 team, a mammoth plate of the 1865 team (an alternative version from the same photographer also exists with the photo being CDV size), and the Peck and Synder trade card of the 1868 team. The 1860/61 CDV, the 1865 mammoth plate and the 1868 Peck and Synder are illustrated in the book "Smithsonian Baseball".

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>thanks again that helped me alot, you sure know a lot about vintage baseball cards im glad your here in this forum and whats that 1871 Warren Cabnites Card or something like that posted by Anonymous

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>They are a set of 12 single player cabinets picturing the 1871 Boston Red Stockings. They were the dominant professional team before the National League was founded in 1876. Several of the players came to the Boston team from the 1869 Cincinnati team including George and Harry Wright and Cal McVey. <br /><br />As discussed on this thread, there were team pictures and some individual photos made prior to this, but I think this is the first real "set" of cards, in the way we think of them today.

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Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>okay thanks for the information I have 1 more last question for now <br /><br /><br /><br />IS A Daguerreotype consider a baseball card????