Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Hello Fellow Collectors & Investigators!<br />I am starting a thread about the T206 Honus Wagner/Cy Young uncut proof strip in order to gather any information in regards to it's history and reprint status in order to help verify a piece that I have. There is only one known copy of the strip in existence, and I have read the articles in regards to it's journey straight from the Wagner estate. However, I am wondering how there may be reprints out there if none of the past 28 year's owners made any? Also, I was wondering if anyone one knows of some additional ways I can authenticate the piece myself so I can have a solid idea before I bring it to one of the big three authenticating houses? I am in the progress of getting a 100x microscope in order to do some further testing, and that should help shed some light on the subject. <br />All ideas and theories welcomed, and thanks for your time and interest. The journey has been fun thus far, let's keep it going!<br /><br />Sincerely, David (Delicate Dust)

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>You don't need to have the strip in your possesion in order to create a reprint. All you need a good scan or photo of it to create one. If you have a similar strip, then all you really need to do is compare if to other t206s. Stock, printing, etc should be exactly the same.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>David- if I understand your post are you claiming to own the original? There is only one, and when it trades it's usually close to six figures. If you don't own that one, then yours is a reprint.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I may be mistaken, but I was under the impression that one of the owners of the original strip made and sold reprints. If true or not, I've seen many reprints sold as reprints on eBay.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Jon Canfield</b><p>Barry - I could be wrong but I read his post as being that he owned something similar to the Wagner strip so if the wagner strip is authentic, how can he go about authenticating his "item". I assumed he may own a similar uncut strip but with different players (maybe?)?

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>In regards to the preceeding commments.......Barry, are you saying there is for sure only one proof strip in existence? How can you be so sure? Also, to anyone who has seen reprints of this Honus uncut strip, what do they look like? Is "reprint" on them anywhere? Any help and description,of any reprints seen on ebay would be great. Thanks a lot! -David

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>David, you are requesting information, please share some in exchange. For example:<br /><br />Where did you get your strip?<br />What players are represented?

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I don't beleive the reprints say reprint on them. The reprints I saw for sale on eBay were clearly represented as reprints by the sellers.<br /><br />The known original T206 Wagner strip, once owned by Barry Halper and pictured in the catalog, had distinct and unique wear and writing on the front which should make reprints of the card easy to identify. It's more than unlikely that two original Wagner strips would share the same creases and pencil marks.<br /><br />The owner of the known original, whoever he is, probably paid around $80,000 for it. It's unlikely he would be selling it for $80 at a flea market or newspaper want ad. So if you got yours for under $100, it's unlikely you purchased the one that belonged to Barry Halper. And if your has identical 'creases' and pencil marks in the border as Halper's, it would seem to be a reprint of Halper's.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...your piece is a reprint. I know this because you do not own the only known example and because you decided to write a post seeking to verify whether yours was authentic. People with authentic six figure cards do not have to seek information on their authenticity and anyone seeking help to authenticate a Wagner (let alone a proof Wagner strip) lacks the background necessary to actually have snagged the real deal. Is it possible you got lucky on ebay? Yes, it is theoretically possible. But you have a better chance of winning the Megamillions lottery than you do of acquiring the second known (currently unknown) Wagner proof strip. If you own an authentic T206 card you would be able to confirm this based on the quality of the cardboard, font size and color, borders, ink syle and usage, etc.<br /><br />In short, if you have to ask whether something you own is a reprint, there is an overwhelmingly good chance that it is. And whether or not "reprint" was written on the back is totally and 100% irrelevant.<br /><br />Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I hope this does not discourage your collecting of vintage baseball cards and that you will continue to seek information from the writers on this board and through the development of your own collecting prowess.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>There is always the possibility of a second (or more) Wagner strip existing, but the one that we all know is heavily creased in a particular way. If someone else has a strip that is creased differently or not at all, then it could be a new find. But now that I think of it, a reprint of the original would exhibit the same wrinkles but would be uniformly smooth. No two strips could possibly be creased the same way, so a new one would not even need authenticating. You could tell by a glance if it were a copy or new to the hobby.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>Hello,<br />Wow, its great to see these responses. Every question keeps leading me to additional, more difficult questions. Any ideas of exactly what I should be seeing when I magnify the print up close? Anyone know what the "reprints" print looks like? How can reprints be sold on ebay without consent from the Wagner estate? I have read Cycleback's great articles on early 1900's Lithograghy and baseball cards, and that has led me to additional questions. like i said, it's a fun investigation on a really cool piece...

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>A reprint would be uniformly smooth.......true creases (printing plate problems) could be similar, but not exact if they came off the press in the same manner...

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'm not sure the Wagner estate has copyrights on the strip. I think you are free to sell any reprints, but does a modern reprint of the strip have any value?

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>First off, things would be a lot easier if you posted a scan of the strip in question. Many of us have seen the Halper strip, either in person or in catalogs, and would be able to tell you right away if what you have has any chance of being legit.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Martin Neal</b><p>I remember seing 4 or 5 of these reprints on ebay a couple of years ago. Also, didn't some kid from Florida win the Wagner strip in a Walmart promotional? I think he promptly sold for around $80,000.00

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>There are hundreds of that Wagner strip floating around. All reprints. I have actually seen two versions, one which is really beat up and one which isn't as bad, but alas, all are reprints or reproductions.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bob- how could there be two reprinted versions of the Wagner strip if it is made from the same original?

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1140212587.JPG">

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Haven't seen a picture of it in awhile. Four of the cards are in poor condition and the Bowerman is unblemished. That's odd. But the surface of the original would be rough to the touch because of the heavy creases. Any other example that had the same creasing and chipping and was uniformly smooth is a fake. No authenticating necessary.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>.....is it likely that the same kind of press that made the original, was used to make reprints? And if not, what is the likely dot formation of the print in the "reprints" one of the original owners made? Would the dot formations be of modern four color process? Any help greatly appreciated....

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Zach</b><p>A scan will help greatly in proving your items authenticity. Your strip has Wagner and Young, the SAME as the Halper strip, many reprints have been made of it. Many of which are not marked. I'm sure yours is fake, but a scan would help further that.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>As far as I know there are no known presses left in existances that are the same as those used to produce t206s. The more you keep dodging our questions, the more it's starting look like you are trying to figure out a way to create a good fake.<br /><br />Instead of asking more questions, how about answering ours first.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...that he is trying to generate interest in his known fake in order to solicit offers through this forum. Again, a scan and a post of the image on this Board would help offset these concerns.<br /><br />

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>I am definitely not trying to reproduce this piece, nor am I soliciting the strip I have. If it's a reprint, I'll be very happy to just frame it and throw it on the wall in my sports office. I am on a sincere quest to find out more about the history on this piece. Like I said, it's been a lot of fun so far. I am new to the forum, and am learning how to post the scans. <br />The question remains out there what the dot formation would look like on the reprints.......we'll see if anyone can answer this:) Thanks,<br />-David

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The dot matrix on the reprint would be identical to the original if it is nothing more than a laser copy or some form of color reproduction. Isn't the reprint just a replication of the original?

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Alex</b><p>Here ya go guys this is the image that appeared in the eBay auction 2 weeks ago <br /><br /><img src=http://i20.ebayimg.com/04/i/06/1c/73/58_1.JPG>

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>That's not even a high quality repro. I could take the original to my neighborhood photocopy shop and get better color and resolution than that. Look how blurry it is (I'll assume it's not the scan).

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Alex</b><p>Barry couldn't say I just happen to have posted it in another thread pertaining to it's authenticity if you check where the image originates from you'll notice it's eBay

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>It's practically impossible to make a sharp looking reprint of a T206, T206 Wagner or proof sheet using the original printing techniques. So if someone is trying to figure out how to do this, it can't be done.<br /><br />You can make a good looking reprint, perhaps even removing or changing the creases with photoshop, but the modern printing techniques will give it away as modern.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Once again, you keep avoiding the issue of YOU posting a scan. Many of here are knowledgable enough to be able to tell you with a great deal of certainty whether what you have legit or not. Barring that, the board memebers cover a vast majority of the country and I am sure that someone living near you would be more than willing to help you out. As was pointed out, it's highly unlikely that if you unable to authenticate this it that you would have run across a legit one at a garage sale, etc.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>David: in these situations, I usually ask myself "What would Terry Bradshaw think?" Then, I conclude, or do, the opposite.<br /><br />Hope this helps resolve your questions and concerns.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Martin Neal</b><p>I don't know if this is OT or not, please excuse.<br />Does anyone have a thought as to why the Bowerman on the wagner strip card is missing the B. Is it possible that the early print run of the Boston players were missing the B and that this mistake was corrected quickly. I know that some Boston players are missing the red and I think that is a different issue than some Boston players missing the team insignia. I have a Dahlen that is missing the B completely. There is no vestige of the B at all as you may find with a Sweeney no B. It looks like the Bowerman in the Wagner strip

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Not only is he missing the "B", but Bowerman's normal<br />background color should be GREEN.<br /><br />Given that fact, then why does the Cy Young card have<br />it's normal GREEN background, but Bowerman does not ?<br /><br />There is something very strange about this strip ?<br />

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Tim James</b><p>I agree with Jay on this.There is no way there can be another strip like this without there being noticable differences in the condition of the card.All of us,knowing what the original looks like,could see quickly with a good scan if we have an addition to the hobby or not.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Zach</b><p>You can ad Young's uniform being white to the list of oddities with this strip. One more thing that is very important is the text. I just finished looking through the Halper book and the text is far from the normal imo. Also, why hasn't anyone investigated this piece with the authenticating technology we have and came out with some results ? It wouldn't be the first fake item to come from the Halper collection. Hasn't anyone found it odd that the only uncut T206 strip to show in the public eye just happens to contain the world'ds most famous baseball card ? Too many red flags on this strip for me.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>Barry- I have seen a number of these floating around the last few years and I could be mistaken but I am almost positive I have not only seen the one shown above but also one in which the Kling upper right corner has been doctored to make the card "lose" the loss of the right top corner.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Like someone mentioned, there is something very interesting about this strip. I am wondering like someone has mentioned what factors determined that Barry Halper's strip is indeed from 1909? Also, to Barry in the forum, like Cycleback said......you can't just run down to your local copy store and laser print this and keep the same dot formation integrity of the ancient printing presses. That is why I have questions about this......when magnified, the print is much different than the modern printing dot formation. I am wondering what kind of print the known reprints have, and also, what the original has. Do you think it would be the same as the lithography techniques used with all the other T206s? And if so, shouldn't someone be able to dismiss this piece or authenticate through the 100x magnified print? Thanks for any thoughts on this...<br />-David

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>I wonder why getting a scan is just completly ignored ? As far as i'm concerned this should be a dead thread without a scan.<br /><br />Something obviously is not right.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Zach</b><p>I agree 100 percent with Scott. Give us a scan, something isn't right at all.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I've been told that when you bite into them in the dark the real proof strips give of sparks, while the reprints don't. Amongst graders, it's known as the Velamint test.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>This also works on nickles if you have dental work like Jaws from the Bond movies, so that you don't get any wooden nickles.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Zach<br /><br />Great observation about Cy Young's lack of Uniform color. That, and<br />my observation on Bowerman really raise doubts if this 5-card "strip"<br />was ever an original.<br /><br />Wagner's and Brown's and Kling's uniforms are the correct color; so,<br /> there appears to be problem here why Young's is NOT. The 4 - color<br /> lithographic process did not print each player individually. It was a<br />process which applied each ink color on all the cards on a sheet,<br /> simultaneously.<br /><br />I think we have a real mystery developing here regarding this "strip" ? ?

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Martin Neal</b><p>The original also has the "B" missing from the Bowerman card.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Zach and Ted,<br /> Actually none of the cards on the proof strip are in finished form.<br />1. Brown is missing the blue around the collar of his uniform.<br />2. Wagner's background is much more Orange than the usual card.<br />3. Bowerman is missing his blue collar and the red processing for the B<br />4. Young's uniform is white instead of the normal grayish color<br />5. Kling is missing the blue around his collar.<br /><br /> While none of the cards are in "finished form", the Wagner is the closest in the group and may have been a proof they wanted Honus to sign off on. If it did truly come from his Estate then that would be a plausible explanation. Has anyone here handled the strip? Be well Brian

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>While cataloguing the Halper collection I got to see it regularly. First, keep in mind it is blank backed and thus not a finished product. And it seems that each of the five players have some color missing- would this lack of color be consistent with the strip simply missing its final color pass? Some, such as Ted Z., know a little more about the order in which the colors were applied. Having seen it in person, it does look ca. 1910, not inconsistent with what you would expect it to look like. Admittedly, it is an odd piece but being odd does not sign it off as a fake. You know, it could be examined by a major grading company for authenticity. Finally, for those who talked about copying the dot matrix pattern, if you make a good color photocopy of anything it will pick up exactly what it sees. So if an original has a dot matrix, the copy will look identical. I've made many color copies and cards look so real it is scary.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>drcycleback-.</b><p>Proofs are tests prints before the final printing. They are used by the printers to see how the card looks and determine what should be changed to make the card look better (ala 'needs more red.') It's the equivilent of a first or second draft of a article you are writing ('proof reading'). If a proof has differences from the final cards, that is not unexpected.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>....for finally stating this, as it seems many people don't understand this concept. Cycleback, is Barry correct in his statement that you can make an exact repoduction of any print with modern machines. I understand it according to your article that it may appear to be the same, but when magnified it is considerably different. Barry doesn't seem to believe this...

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>There are people here so worried that I haven't included a scan yet. The scan from alinchitown is my original from ebay. I want to include another scan, but it says my file size is too big. Any ideas of what I may be doing wrong? Thanks.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Computer printers are intended to make quality copies at the naked eye hang-on-the-wall level. There is no intention to duplicate at the microscopic level.<br /><br />An elemental example is when I scanned and computer printed out a copy of an original 1920s baseball photo I owned. The computer copy made a scarily good looking print, but under strong magnification the reprinted image was made up of the multi-color dot pattern. This dot pattern identified it as a reprint, as real photos have no dot pattern (they aren't printing press and ink prints). The reprint would be easy to identify by anyone with a microscope and who knows photos don't have a multi color dot pattern. <br /><br />When I was originally made my guide on judging the authenticity of cards severa years aago I made reprints of T206 cards on my laser printer (blank backed, on shiny computer paper). The high quality of the reprints was scary. So, I know first hand that computer printers can make nice images.<br /><br />As a longtime collector and seller of photographs, I can identify most printing press versions from the naked eye level as the printed versions lack the clarity and depth of of a real photo. If you cut out a modern magazine picture, an avid photo collector looking at it at the naked eye level will likely know, or at least have a strong sense, it's not a photograph.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>This post is funny. The well known authentic Wagner proof strip is a "one of a kind", especially with the unique creasing. The small photo Dennis posted is the authentic strip, the photo Alex posted is of a reproduction. I have seen a couple dozen of the reprints advertised on eBay in last few months. If Im not mistaken the authentic strip was last sold for $79K in Aug. 2002.<br /><br />PS lets try to get this post well over 200 like that crazy soaking and pressing post <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> JK please dont

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>In the days before scanners customers would always ask me for photocopies of cards and I would take them down to my local photocopy center which had a particularly good color machine. Let me say that to the naked eye this produced exact replicas of the actual card. All the machines do is copy what they see, they don't change anything. But as David Rudd pointed out, under high magnification you may notice some minute differences.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>Scanners copy the exact image, but modern printing machine drastically change the dot matrix as Cycleback has stated.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I assume that even though you use the term "drastically" it is still something that is visible only under magnification. Because the color photocopies I used to get were so true to form that I used to joke that I could sell them as real cards.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Genaro</b><p>I had asked a friend of mine whom is a tech at the crime lab here in Jacksonville. He said even if a press was even to exist the exact paper could not be reproduced. He also said the inks are also impossible to reproduce. A person could make a good fake to the naked eye but never pass any test under a microscope even a cheap one. I had showed him my best t206 card a card I think would grade to at least a seven he said it was almost impossible to separate the card to get the printing off to over print using original stock. He said it may be easier to counterfeit money from 10 years ago because a 20 dollar bill would never go through the scrutiny of a 6 figure baseball card.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>David,<br /><br />Just reduce the file size.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Duly note that collectors who specialize in an issue can identify most reprints and counterfeits even if the collectors don't have a microscope or blacklight. If you've been collecting 1971 Topps since you were a kid and have a box of them in your closet, you'll be able to identy 1971 Topps reprints with no trouble. The reprints simply won't look right.<br /><br />For the collector or dealer, a microscope is used to double check issues you are familiar with and check out issues you aren't as experienced with or have never handled before.<br /><br />And, of course, collectors also can use good provenance/second opinions, which can include buying from knowledgeable sellers, getting cards checked out by a reputable grader and getting opinions from folks on this board.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>...evening! basically hoping Cycleback can respond to this, but all comments more than welcome since I can't seem to find out much more about this piece: I have been to an experienced printer, and know for sure the process that was used to make the one I scanned and used for ebay that is above. He said "It was definitelly done with the silkscreen process, and not done with an ink jet/laser printer." As I know the T206's were done with lithography, I still can't seem to get any info on reprint production (how many, where, who did it, were they authorized, the printing techniques used, etc.) I have also done black light testing on this, and there are no floresence in the ink or paper. I have searched eBay everyday for the last forty days, and all I came across was a larger reprint that was being advertised as a small poster. His auction was not stopped, so I am also wondering why they stopped my aucton a while back, even though I clearly stated this was a reprint? Any ideas guys? Do you know anyone who has this reprint, or knowledge of the original? Thanks for your help.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p> Reproductions dont need to be authorized, most are not. Quality and printing processes will vary. Anyone can make a reprint.<br /><br /> Your piece really doesnt have any collector value, just a novelty piece for the wall at best. I dont pay too much attention to the reprint Wagner strip, but Ive seen many reprints of it on eBay over the last few years. There is only one authentic piece.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Is this guy related to the guy with Thorpe card?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>I am not asking for a value here. Some people feel the need to tell me it's a worthless piece.....that's not the question. I have been researching the reprints, and that's all. I am not questioning the fact there is only one original, and was just wondering if any one out there had more answers about the reprints. Thanks!

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Since anyone anywhere at anytime can make a reprint, there will never be a history of where all reprints came from unless the guy who made it recognizes it as the one he made and tells you about it. And since a printer has told you how the print was made, there is no further information about this print available from anyone else. <br /><br />Given the above, most of us are still concerned that you are really not researching the history of the reprint, but instead trying to find out if there is some way in h*ll that what you have is somewhat original or of any value. And, as you know, those questions have also been answered.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>....my main point is that my auction was ended early because ebay said there were trademark/copyright issues. I clearly stated it was a reprint, yet someone was obviously offended. I wondered why this was, because you say anyone can make a reprint and its only value is to the owner. I agree with this, but was also curious which of the few owners of the original decided to make as many reprints as those in this forum say there are. Also, and finally, with silkscreen printing, it is a bit more complicated process than just running down to the local copy store.......someone went through some effort, and I wanted to find out who, as a hobby curosity. I see nothing wrong this, but you seem a bit offended also. There is nothing wrong with questioning origins, thats what makes this fun. Thanks for your time...<br />-David<br /><br />p.s. This research has been well worth it thanks to Cycleback, I have learned a ton about early 1900's print identification, and also the use of blacklights. Kudos to him!

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...just skeptical. I am happy you were able to find out about early 20th Century printing techniques and how to use black lights. The more education the better. No one is questioning that more education about reprint techniques is a good thing, absent the motive to commit fraud. And no one is questioning your interest in your own reprint, absent the motive to similarly commit fraud. It is your motive in each case that is in question.<br /><br />But putting aside all concerns about your motivation, the person who created your reprint was probably acting illegally, in terms of copyright, right of publicity and/or fraud laws. For these reasons alone the person who created your reprint does not want to be known. And for these reasons if you ever found out who it was, that person might not be particularly happy with you. But maybe that is your point because you are trying to find the person so that you can sue him to recover whatever you paid for it.<br /><br />I guess at the end of the day it is hard for me to buy that you are interested in the technology of reprints just for the greater good of growing your own mind. But if you are then I certainly did not mean to offend you either.<br /><br /><br /><br />

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>David knows more about printing than I do, but isn't the silkscreen process used to make t-shirts? I've never heard of card or anything else being printed with a silkscreen process.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>I am definitely interested in growing my own mind about counterfeits when there are so many different variations out there......how else would I ever know I am bidding on the real thing? So yes, it's an absolute necessity these days to know the difference. Also, I am not out to sue anyone.....I think the piece is pretty cool, and bought it cheap. <br />And to Jay, that's exactly what I thought. The reason I was so confused when this thread was first started is that, under a microscope, the print didn't match anything I was seeing on cards......early lithography-modern/or laser, ink-jet dot matrix like most people in this forum were telling me it was. So, it led me to question further why someone would go through the more complex process of burning plates and, "what not" for silk screening. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.<br /><br />p.s. I did learn that the 1930's Goudeys were made with "inexact" silkscreen process.....interesting, huh? Anyone know more about this? Someone must of had some pretty "interesting" equipment to make the T206 Honus Reprint I have. There's no doubt about this... <br /><br />Read article at:<a href="http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3910&universeid=314" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3910&universeid=314</a>

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Here's relevant information for your research.<br /><br />1) I do not know, but I was under the impression one of the owners of the original strip made repints and sold them. If so, I guess it would be his way to promote it or make some extra bucks.<br /><br />2) Offhand, it would would seem unlikely that yours is a screenprint. They do use screenprinting to make posters and prints, but it's relatively expensive and I don't know why someone would choose this process to make baseball card reprint ... And, no, an original 1909 strip would not have been a screenprint.<br /><br />3) Lithography used to make modern cards could be called a 'screen process,' as it uses screens to make all those little dots. <br /><br />4) If your reprint is a lithograph and if #1 is true, than it likely originated from #1. Due to expence and required print run, the average eBay reprinter wouldn't make lithographs. <br /><br />Unless it's something like a serial numbered Topps insert edition or the cover to the Hall of Fame dinner menu, a modern reprint of a T206 Wagner or 1933 Goudey has minimal value on the market. Trying to find the source of a reprint can be good clean fun, but will likely have little effect on it's market value. Several official organizations have reprinted the T206 Wagner-- including Wagner's estate, for the promotion of the PSA8 card and Fan Fest (I think)--, and these cards are worth a few bucks on the market. <br /><br />

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>There are no, "dots," on my piece that resemble any piece of printing or card I have. I do not have any Goudeys, so I have not been able to compare the two. The color schemes seem very similar. <br />I know it would seem likely that my piece was made with an inexpensive process, but it appears to be the screenprint, not the screen process of dots. Any ideas of why they would go through the expense of this procedure? And if they did, wouldn't they have made many "reprints" to even make it worth their time? Something is not adding up. Any more ideas Dave? Should I go back to the printer I talked with about this piece and find out exactly the process used in more detail (Steps and complications?) All theories welcomed. You can see now why this has been stumping me....<br /><br /><br />Additional Goudey History:<br /><a href="http://www.psacard.com/articles/article3886.chtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.psacard.com/articles/article3886.chtml</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/articles/article3886.chtml</a</a>>

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Maybe it's a Warhol. If you look in the auction catalog you will see that Barry Halper owned a Warhol screen print of the 1985T Pete Rose baseball card. Plus, Warhol was a native of Pittsburgh.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>...or are you just being sarcastic. Its hard to tell in this forum sometimes.<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />That would be quite interesting...

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>...the fact that under a black light, the ink, nor paper give off any florescence like the Honus reprints I have, or many other cards I have? I have been using a 1912 colliers for some comparisons also...thanks Dave.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>1912 Colliers? Whats that? Just wondering. It isnt one of the cut out pages from a magazine "pseudocards" is it?

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>1912 Colliers is the entire magazine. It does have nice of all the top players of the time. I was just using it to see an example of paper that old under a blacklight...

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>martin dalziel</b><p><br /><br />David,<br />Has no one helped you re you posting scans of your strip? Thats not like this group.<br /><br />If you'd post a scan i think people would be able to help you much more than now, as we're all flying blind. As Jay said eons ago, its also why people still wonder about your motives.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>yes, please just post a scan and that will help solve the "mystery"

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>A few of us have asked throughout this post. I don't think we will see any though.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>.....you keep asking for a scan, when I have said many times, the one posted within this thread is my scan from ebay. Another memeber put it in here, after he recorded it. Everytime I attempt to put in another scan, it says the file size is too big......and that is scanned at 72 dpi.......can I scan for high dpi and then shrink the file to post here? <br />I mean, it is intersting my motives are being so questioned, when the scan above is mine from ebay??? <br />However, if you can help....I'll get you as many scans as you want. Just researching the reprints.....of which mine is a very interseting one, for many reasons stated above. Let me know, thanks....-Davidhttp://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1142747998.JPG

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>This thread is a moot point. The reprint pictured above is just an average reprint of average quality, nothing special. Its most likely homemade and made from a scan of the authentic piece. It has that foggy look to it when compared to the authentic piece. I have seen it listed dozens of times on eBay, but not recently. Mostlikely wont see anymore unless the guy makes more. <br /><br />This thread should be dead <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>David</b><p>Why you got to be like that? I am researching the reprints......it wasn't made like you say it was, and thats what I find interesting. I am not saying it is the authentic piece, I just had some questions on why this one is different? I know why it is, and if you have a problem, maybe you're the one forging them. <br />If you can't help, don't comment and be a jerk.<br /><br />p.s. If you think you know how the one shown in this thread was made and who, tell me wiseguy? I would love to know.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Assuming it's printed, normal size and on carboard, what way it was printed will have little effect on it's value. Whether it's a computer print, lithograph or screen print, a modern reprint of the stip is worth a few bucks at most.<br /><br />If it's a well done 30x16 inches oil painting reproduction, then it would be worth more.<br /><br />If the theory is that it's some 'special' old time reprint, I'll bet a reprint of the strip didn't exist before the 1999 Sotheby's Halper auction.

Mystery Of The T206 Honus Wagner Uncut Proof Strip
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Nice job killing your own thread dumb-a**.<br /><br />You did all right getting some info and answers for 78 posts, even while you appeared to ignore valid questions by long-time board members. You even managed to beat it back to life a few times for more comment.<br /><br />Then you go and imply that Frank Ward is a forger. Way to go, dust. <br /><br />Joann Kline<br /><br />