How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>This SGC 40 was in an auction a few months ago and sold before juice at 7135.00. Now it has re-appeared in a different auction but as a SGC 80 and is currently at 13,155.00. I have never seen SGC regrade cards with this big of a difference. I wonder who the submitter was? I guess we need to buy the card and not the holder... Or pay someone to submit them for you.. Thought SGC was NOT like that???? <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1134017464.JPG"> <br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1134017549.JPG">

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>JudgeDred (Fred)</b><p>Holy Crap!!!<br /><br />You're definitely right... buy the card and then find someone that knows someone that will do a favor for them...<br /><br />I would really like to here the explanation on this one...<br /><br />Here's the current auction:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20 Information&LotIndex=54432&CurrentRow=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20 Information&LotIndex=54432&CurrentRow=1</a><br /><br />Which auction had the card as an SGC40?<br />

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Since you asked.... <br /><br /><a href="http://www.milehighcardcoauction.com/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=3232&getauctionid=46" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.milehighcardcoauction.com/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=3232&getauctionid=46</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.milehighcardcoauction.com/bid/bidplace.asp?itemid=3232&getauctionid=46</a</a>><br /><br />I see it happen more than most would realize. I bid on cards like this and they don't come up for sale to often.. Then when I see two or three in the same year going thru different auction companies.... You can pretty much figure it out... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Very freaking disappointing. SGC just is printing up money for its special friends. I expect this from PSA...but I guess I assumed SGC was a bit more pure. I'd love to know who the submitters on the two cards were...when they were submitted...who did the grading...

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Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>I guess the ink on the back is now missing...hence the higher grade.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Damian</b><p>Does anyone think this card was unaltered in between trips to SGC? How did they miss the alterations if so? I have carefully erased heavy pencil writing on a card and got away with it through PSA. Thoughts?<br /><br />Damian

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>JudgeDred (Fred)</b><p>Nice catch JC.<br /><br />Elliot, you're right (from the Mile High auction description):<br /><br />To start with, the card’s front is extremely well centered with outstanding imagery and focus combined with corners that rate between EX/MT and NM! The reason for the significant downgrade to VG is the presence of a small area of ink writing on the reverse of this already blank backed card and also a small barely noticeable wrinkle on the back. While the grading of sports cards is without question the norm of today, I must say that although the technical grade of this card is lowered due to the aforementioned negatives the overall beauty of this incredible rarity rises above its assigned grade and is without question one of, if not the best examples available in the hobby today.<br /><br />Wrinkle and Ink - GONE!!! Presto, cha ching = now it's worth $7K+ more... wow!!!

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Guys, guys, guys...we only talk about PSA guffaws here. What's going on? Seriously, that is really disappointing and I hope SCG sees this and brings forth some kind of explanation. <br /><br />DJ

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>Here is a scan of the back.. Mile high did not show the back so we have nothing to compare. I can pretty much guess and figure out where the ink lines were by looking at the Mastro scan..<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1134019302.JPG"> <br /><br /><br />Do grading companies buy high $$$ cards from auctions as well? Just a thought.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>HW</b><p>I bid on it in a prevous auction. <br /><br />I believe that one of our own forum members owns this card. I wonder if he disclosed the work that was done to it.<br /><br />Do you think that the removed blemishes are even visible?

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>It looks like pencil on the reverseof the card was erased was it ink??

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>JudgeDred (Fred)</b><p>Wally,<br /><br />Look a few posts up and you'll see a portion of the Mile High item description.... what happened to the wrinkle?

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>(censored) <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />(censored) <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/Smiles_smiley_62_prv.gif"> I could tales unfold...

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...submitted a T206 card to SGC without realizing that there was a small amount of paper glued to the front of the card -- it blended right in with the player's jersey. When I got it back as an SGC 10, I looked and looked until finally I saw the piece of paper. I cracked the card, soaked it, removed the paper and glue and then resubmitted it to SGC. It came back as an SGC 40/3, which is what I thought it would grade the first time. <br /><br />Soaking, by the way, will also reduce or minimize wrinkles in cards, and special erasers will remove writing without damaging the card. <br /><br />

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>This N403 is truly disturbing and I think SGC has an obligation to respond and acknowledge the error. No question they missed the cleaning the second time around (didn't anyone there have a vague recollection that they had seen this card before? How many Yum Yums do they handle?).

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>I don't think SGC owes anyone anything. Pencil and some pen marks can be professionally removed with no remaining evidence. When you pay someone ten bucks to slab your card they are not going to spend an hour doing it and they will hardly ever find evidence of this removal. <br /><br />"Doctor, doctor give me some news. I've got a bad..."(pencil mark?)<br /><br />BTW, who owns the card?

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>i think sgc does have some explaining to do. when i disagree with a grade or if sgc thinks a N, T or E card is altered their word is gospel and they dont want to hear it. They can't possibly handle enough yum yum's not to recognize this example, especially since sgc claims to only have a handful of graders that deal with pre war material. if sgc will reject a card that has had a pencil marked erased for being altered this card should be rejected as being altered. it should not matter if the work was profesional or not.<br /><br />grading is meant to bring consistency to the hobby. such examples demonstrate the short comings of the system

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>JudgeDred (Fred)</b><p>Does anyone want to guess how many of these Keefe cards exist? <br /><br />I would be willing to guess that the graded population of these cards is minimal so if there are two graded cards then the population report is off by 50%. Also, does this mean that SGC will now remove the SGC40 from their population report?<br /><br />

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>I would love to know who the submitter was???? Yes, SGC has some explaining to do... I think I will personally hand deliever some cards to them I want re-graded and have this Keefe example (photos only)on hand to use like "Case Law" on them. Great point on the how many will show up on population report... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Wasn't this card originally sold raw in a Mastronet auction in '03. I wonder if the winner of this card in Mile Highs auction and the submitter to SGC are the same person.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I think you are expecting an awful lot from any grading company if you expect them to recognize cards that they have graded once before - its not like they take pictures of the cards for future reference - rare or not. The see thousands of cards a week and its unlikely that they retain a photographic memory of every card that they see. Further, there is no way to know if the same grader even touched the card the second time around.<br /><br /><br />

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>I'm not sure I understand why removing a foreign substance (e.g., ink, lead, glue) should necessarily be regarded as altering a card. Suppose my kid puts a glob of silly putty on the back of a card and I remove it. I think we will all agree I haven't altered the card. Or suppose a piece of scotch tape is on the back. A skilled conservator often can dry-peel the tape off with no trace remaining. I don't think we would call that altering the card. Some might say that in the case of ink, lead or glue removal, another substance/object/chemical must first be applied in order to effectuate the removal and it is the application of that other substance/object/chemical that constitutes the alteration. But if that other substance/object/chemical is then removed without a trace along with the original foreign substance, why should that treatment be regarded as altering a card any more than when the silly putty or scotch tape is removed? In fact, in the case of the silly putty or scotch tape, another object was applied to effectuate the removal (my finger in the case of the silly putty and a tool in the case of the scotch tape). I don't think that there should be a distinction between an object (a finger or a tool) or a chemical effectuating the removal of the foreign substance provided that in both instances the object or chemical is removed without a trace.<br /><br />I guess my point is that if the treatment does not involve the permanent addition to or replacement of a portion of the card (e.g., paper restoration, retouching text) or the physical alteration to a nonoriginal state (e.g., trimming), I wouldn't regard the card as being altered. <br /><br />Perhaps SGC remembered the card as having that ink stain, but then felt that because it was removed without a trace remaining, they had to regrade it as if the ink stain never existed. If that is the case, in my view they did nothing wrong.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p><br />I don't have a problem with professional restoration which removes flaws from a card. It was just highly visible and profitable in this case. SGC clearly undergraded the card 1st time through, I'd have called it a 50. Appears to be a bit overgraded now, I would had called it a 70, it might be argued that Mastro got special treatment here. So a 1.5 improvement in grade is what you could had seen, rather than going to a "3" grade improvement.<br /><br />I do find it annoying that people claim SGC "grades conservatively". To me, that means that SGC undergrades cards, that they ignore their own guidelines and not delivering the service that they promise. But for people who put cards into their collection, SGC does have the more attractive holder.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Josh<br /><br />You raise an excellent point. Why wouldn't and more importantly why shouldn't the grading companies keep scans of rare high end cards they grade? Do any of them fact do this? (not have any high grade or rare cards, I seldom venture into this area, so my knowledge is limited) <br /><br />When so much importance (and bid prices, it seems) is put by people on population reports, I can think that the grading companies are only leaving themselves open to criticism about the accuracy of their reports if they can't account for re-grades. It would seem like the prudent thing to do.<br /><br />Max

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I completely agree with Corey - I do not consider removal of pencil/ink to be an alteration. It is the removal of something that never should of been there in the first place - completely different IMO than trimming, bleaching, retouching, etc.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>the point is that if i causually erase a pencil mark sgc will reject the card as being altered. you can not have it both ways and be an objective third party

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Manos</b><p>Jim,<br /> That is incredible. It is amazing what people can do with paper. I have had a few similar experience with cards I consigned, ie... slabbed. I am always the guy selling them at the lower grade though... Great post...

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>&lt;&lt;if i causually erase a pencil mark sgc will reject the card as being altered&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Just not true.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I have to say that both sides for this argument have made valid points and I share some feelings with each- I think it is okay to remove a small foreign substance from a card without comprising its integrity, and I also feel that having the same card graded twice at two entirely different levels raises some serious concerns. But to take yet another perspective, how do you think SGC feels if they have read this post? Regardless of your individual position, this is not good public relations for them and they can not be happy about it.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>below is a list of sgc rejection codes<br />SGC Rejection Codes: <br />Code Description Tag <br />A Altered ALT <br />B Bleached BLE <br />C Color Added COL <br />E Power Erased ERA <br />G Minimum Graded Not Met MIN <br />L Too Large to Holder (Oversized) LRG <br />N Miscut MIS <br />M Cannot/Do Not Grade NO <br />P Pressed PRS <br />R Rebuilt REB <br />S Too Small to Holder (Short) SML <br />T Evidence of Trimming TRM <br />X Counterfeit COU <br />Z Resurfaced SUR <br /> <br />A rejected card may exhibit additional alterations in addition to what is identified by the rejection code. SGC will reject a card upon identifying the initial evidence of alteration.<br /><br /> so i guess there is a difference between power erasing and regular erasing? where one is acceptable and one is not.<br /><br />the reason psa gets bashed is because when they make a mistake the refuse to acknowledge the mistake and cover it up. in the past sgc has been more forthright with their mistakes and it will be interesting to see if they address this issue.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>David - that is incorrect. I have removed pencil marks with an eraser (by hand) and had those cards graded by sgc. I have also tried to erase pen (which of course really doesnt work). The result was an obvious lightening of the area around the pen. Still graded by sgc, but no benefit since the mark was still there. I think the only time sgc will reject a card is when it was bleached to remove the mark or power erased.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I will also add that I do not think sgc made a mistake here - they graded the card the first time a 40 due to the pen. The second time, finding nothing to downgrade, it rec'd an appropriate grade for how the card then appeared. My guess is that there was nothing obvious in their examination of the card that would lead to a rejection for alteration - and absent any knowledge that it was the same card (which is the most likely scenerio), there would have been no reason to inquire further.

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>if that is the case then sgc is completely useless as an objective third party. you can not selectively apply the grading guidelines. case in point two years ago REA auctioned off a G and B which had dirt erased around the portrait and as a result would not grade by sgc. how is that different then this case? the point of erasing errant marks it to visually enhance the card and by proxy increase the grade. according the third party guidelines this is unacceptable.

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>David,<br /><br />I believe that a "power erase" is quite different than a regular erase. <br /><br />I once had a card that had been "power erased" which basically was a 1957 Topps which was off-center. Apparently someone had used an eraser, or electrical power eraser, to actually wipe out about a 1/8" strip of the entire image to make the image appear more centered. The ink is gone and the white card stock underneath looks like it is part of the border.<br /><br /><br />

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>there should be no distinction between power erasing, erasing and bleaching. is bleaching acceptable, that has the same effect as erasing. all methods alter the card from the present condition to visually enhance the card and increase the value. this is one of the purposes that sgc serves, to detect alterations. they can not selectively apply grading criteria and still remain legit. if they want to accept cards that are erased, bleach alterterd trimmed that is fine but then all such cards should be treated the same. sgc as an objective third party can not say it is okay to ignore alterations in one case and not in another.

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>I understand what you are saying. <br /><br />However, my point is that in a regular erase, one may be trying to remove a pencil or pen mark that has been added after the manufacture of the card (something that was not intended to be there). <br /><br />In a power erase, the whole image (or size of image) is altered by erasing the original ink for the picture - altering the card from how the card left the manufacturer. I think that this is a distinct difference. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>There is also a distinct difference between using an eraser by hand and using chemicals such as bleaching. Bleaching whitens the entire card - it doesnt erase marks. <br /><br />David, I guess you also have a problem with soaking a card in water to remove scrapbook paper from the back?

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>There, I said it; happy, you PSA fans? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Just goes to prove that a really good removal job can beat the grading system of even the best graders. I think we've had threads on this exact issue before. Asking a grader to pick up a professional-caliber wrinkle or writing removal in many cases is asking the most difficult task for the grader. Not a justification, merely an explanation. <br /><br />I've noticed that none of the graders are consistent w/r/t handling of writing on cards, removed or otherwise. Sometimes they grade them, sometimes they refuse to grade them as altered. <br /><br />I do not fault any grading service for not keeping a photographic archive of graded cards. It would be impossibly expensive to go through an archive looking for every card submitted to see if it was the same. No one could afford to pay for that kind of time.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Regular erasing to me is clearly different than bleaching or power erasing. Regular erasing, if done well, does nothing more than return the card to its original state. Powering erasing or bleaching changes the card to something it never was. As Richard said, there is a distinction, and to me this distinction makes all the difference in characterizing the power erasing or bleaching as an alteration and the regular erasing as a nonalteration.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>The distinction is returning the card to factory condition, not altering what the card looked like when it came out of the factory.

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Power erasing is a mechanism to make cards appear better centered by removing part of the image to equalize the appearance of the borders. It is done using an electric power erasure and is different than using an art gum erasure to remove stray pencil marks. <br /><br />As to removing stuff on cards that was not supposed to be there in the first place, like glue, ink and pencil...if it can be done without detection and without chemicals, why not? There are many types of ink that cannot be removed without using a professional restoration service.<br /><br />I think you need to give the grading companies a break and trust that they (except for PSA based on the board consensus) put the cards through enough of an examination to determine if the cards have been altered. If you don't and have either lost confidence or never had any to begin with, then stay away from graded cards. I think they are more capable, certainly those at SGC and Mike Baker at GAI, than they are given credit for. Not sure I see the incentive for them to consciously holder a card that they even suspect might be altered. They make more money rejecting it and making the submitter try again (if he feels the card is worthy of grading) and absolve themselves of a potential liability.<br />

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>T206- The distinction is not exactly accurate - as I dont believe anyone would condone retouching a card or rebuilding a card to return it to factory condition. <br /><br />But I do agree that erasing a stray pencil mark is not altering the card. If anything, the pencil mark itself was an alteration to the card.<br /><br />I also agree with Greg completely. There is nothing here to suggest that SGC missed an alteration that would prevent grading. We can only guess as to how the mark on the back was removed, how big it was, etc. Finally, as Ive repeated, unless they missed an improper alteration, there is no reason to expect that they would immediately recognize this card as one they have previously graded. I mean, sure, they may recall grading another yum yum keefe, but to remember what it looked like, how it was cut, or what distinctive marks were on the card - you got to be kidding.

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Power erasing is definitely different than using a simple hand eraser, both as to mechanism and intent. That being said, the questions remain whether "normal" erasures comprise an alteration or simply a downgrade, to what extent the grading companies should stay consistent, and to what extent SGC should have spotted this change in card appearance.<br /><br />First, it is my understanding that non-power erasures are treated the same as marks, and downgrade the card but still lead to a numeric grade. A mark is technically an alteration, and its erasure would be as well, although the aesthetics could be remarkably different. I believe (but am not sure) that PSA will give a mark qualifier to a card that has been erased. A mark is a mark, whether a faint pencil stray or a barely visible erasure (assuming no paper loss). For purposes of a technical grade, they must be considered, but should not lead to rejection as altered, IMO.<br /><br />Second, for grading card company consistency, standards must be adopted and followed. For example, as I understand it, a card with any kind of crease cannot grade greater than ex, and that's if it's a wrinkle. So too a a card with a mark should not exceed a lower to mid-level grade, regardless of appearance. Thus, IMO, the card in question should not have received an 80. We all know to buy the card and not the holder, and to that extent, much of this discussion is irrelevant. Still, there is a reason why we expect a more objective set of criteria, and the grading companies profess to follow that criteria, so consistency would require a lesser grade for that Keefe.<br /><br />Third, as to whether SGC should have spotted this, I think the answer is yes. It certainly would be different, at least realistically, if we were talking about a 1961 Topps Chico Cardenas card, where dozens of examples have been submitted and thousands or more are laying around unslabbed for possible future grading submission. Here,the card is scarce and valuable, and extra attention warranted. I do not believe it unreasonable to expect a scan database of such cards, although it would be an interesting twist were this card to have initially graded low by PSA and then submitted to SGC after erasure--they certainly should not be expected to keep a database of cards they had not graded previously. BTW, I wonder how this thread would read if the SGC 40 card had turned into a PSA 6. <br /><br /><br /><br />

How do you feel when you see this in an auction
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Regardless of the grading company, if they find evidence of alteration, they will reject the card as having been altered. If they do not find evidence of alteration, they will grade the card.<br /><br />It is entirely possible for a card to be altered or restored without leaving any evidence. All you need to do is look at many of the major auctions and then read the disclaimers to know that.<br /><br />Part of grading a card does not involve searching through every conceivable auction that's happened in the past to try and figure out if that particular card had once been in lesser condition. A collector submits a card to a grading company, the grading company makes an assessment of the card, and then either they put it in a slab, or they don't.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I agree Al.<br /><br />People want to make all kinds of assumptions regarding this card that are unfair regardless of the grading company involved. To name a few:<br /><br />1. SGC must have known the card had been graded before - thus requiring some sort of institutional knowledge and oversite. If this type of research were required for every card, how much do you think grading will cost - $50 a card, more? And how long will it take to get your cards back from grading - a month or two is my guess.<br /><br />2. The "alteration" or erasure must have been evident. Since I doubt any of us experts have viewed the card in person and we dont have a scan of the back of the sgc 40 card, it is impossible, despite our best guesses as to where the pen may have been, to know if the erasure is detectable or not.

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>It is not the first time, nor will it be the last.

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>By the way, if the card had writing and a crease, even if it were otherwise NM-MT, can it be considered VG? It would suggest that the "flaws" were fairly minor if SGC felt the card was still VG.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I have had a few conversations today with executives at SGC about this card. They called me, I didn't call them. Their policy is, and always has been, that they will stand behind this card, or any of their graded cards 100%. They might come on the board later but their response is the same as it's always been, if a card is misgraded they will deal with it. If the scan is accurate then they admit it "could" be slightly overgraded. They will not grade cards definitively from scans, and rightfully so. They are very concerned about this matter and want all to know that they stand behind this, and every card they grade, 100%. As the moderator of this board for several months I have never got a call from anyone at GAI or PSA concerning issues. I think that speaks volumes.....I will give my personal comments on this card's grade, and erasing vs. altering, in another post...possibly. Best regards....

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Al and Josh. First, altered cards are given numeric grades--the fact that this card was graded SGC 40 when it had a pencil mark and the fact that PSA uses a mark qualifier are evidence that such marks will not lead to rejection as altered (see also 1921 Herpolsheimers). To say that altered cards are per se rejected then is untrue, unless you don't consider pencil marks to be alterations. Second, and again, I am pretty sure that the mere fact of erasure is not sufficient to cause rejection, but I'd like to hear others' views on that. I know it's a slippery slope when trying to glean intent, but it generally seems silly to me to turn a pencil-marked card into an erased pencil-marked card and have it go from graded to rejected strictly on that basis. If so you are allowing one alteration but not another. If intent to deceive is the test, then I suppose all erasures should be treated as alterations and rejected. In that case, the Keefe card should not be in an SGC slab at all.<br /><br />As for what SGC should know, my point was that yes, in some instances they should know what they have graded, and probably have scans, where the card reaches a particular level of value or scarcity. Saying that such data cannot be kept on all cards and that grading costs would be probitive misses the point--in this particlaur case they shoould have known, IMO. <br /><br />BTW, don't they already charge you more for grading when the card values reach a certain point? What are you getting for that extra charge? I would think they are giving the card a higher level of scrutiny, as the card itsef is not intrinsically different from a common, low valued card. Why shouldn't that include a heightened examination, and why not a scan database of their own, previously graded high-value cards? If they truly could not detect the erasure here, a quick review of a scan database would have shown that they graded this exact card previously. Seems like a prudent and not overly burdensome task.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Just wanted to say that none of my remarks are meant as a slam of SGC--they get all my slabbing dollars for a reason. Just hoping that procedures or systems might be implemented or improved so that this doesn't or most likely won't happen again, at any grading company.

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>I would characterize a perfectly-done erasure of a pencil mark not as an alteration but instead as a removal of an alteration, thus returning the card to its original state (and by original state I mean the state it was in upon manufacture without anything being permanently added (e.g., touchup, bleaching, paper restoration)). I think the semantics here are important because if upon the removal of the pencil mark the card is characterized as having had the original (temporary) alteration removed and being returned to its unaltered state, then no one should take issue with the card receving a numerical grade. If on the other hand the removal of the pencil mark is regarded as a subsequent alteration, some might regard the card as having undergone two alterations and thus not suitable for a numerical grade.

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>As I understand it, and I could very well be wrong:<br /><br />* A marked card (a card with ink or pencil) is not treated as an "alteration". The word "alteration" is a word that's reserved for a modification of the card with intent to deceive, or, in the case of "in period" trimming (or whatever you call it), a modification of the card in general. A marked card is treated the same as a card with an extreme blemish, like a heavy crease or a pinhole. Therefore, a marked card can be graded. PSA treats the mark by grading the card and then assigning a qualifier. SGC treats the mark as part of the overall condition of the card, and drops the grade accordingly.<br /><br />* A card with a visible erasure, like an eraser line from the eraser on the back of a pencil, is usually treated the same as a marked card. The eraser left a visible mark, and may not have been done with intent to deceive. For example - I have a card that someone had drawn an offensive symbol on. I liked the card, but didn't like the symbol, so I erased it with a pencil eraser. You can plainly see that I did it. It's a marked card.<br /><br />* If someone attempts to remove a mark from a card with intent to deceive, but the alteration is detectable, the card will be rejected. For example, if someone tries to rub off a mark by soaking the card and rubbing it with a Q-tip, but in the process removes some gloss or paper, the alteration can be detected by the graders. In this case, the card is rejected as having been altered. Someone tried to conceal a defect in the card, and in the process, wrecked the card.<br /><br />* If someone expertly removes a mark from a card with intent to deceive, and the alteration cannot be detected, then there's no way for the grader to tell that the alteration took place. So the card is assigned a grade.<br /><br />Seems to make a lot of sense to me. I think it's possible to debate the philosophy, and some of the debate might have merit, but I also think it's pretty easy to understand.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>William Heitman</b><p>Oh, the irony. I really hesitate to bring this up, but I've noticed something very strange about this card just by looking at it. I used to spot Yum Yum's in larger groups of Old Judges because they were always a little larger than Old Judges. I've not seen a Yum Yum with a border so small as this one. Trimmed?

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...that SGC called Leon to discuss this card and this thread. Their customer support and 100% backing of their graded cards are huge reasons to rely on them.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The borders don't look that small to me as far as Yum Yums are concerned...<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1134086674.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1134086710.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>William Heitman</b><p>That O'Rourke sure looks familiar. Got to admit, Leon, very hard to tell. Yum Yum's were always pretty obscure. Thanks for the look.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Right up there with Tinker's bat wings in T206

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Posted By: <b>Jim Clarke</b><p>I wish I could have seen the card's back in the Mile High auction. I do believe whoever bought the card purposley broke it out of the holder... made improvements to it and did it just for a financial gain. They could not even wait a year or so to put it back on the block... It sorda saddens me to see them get rewarded with where the price is now on it... <br /><br />That's great that SGC is made of aware of this deal. However, it seems like nothing can or will be done.. I mean.. Are they going to re-grade it down to a 60 where it probally belongs????Everything is going to work out this time. Maybe the consignor of the Mile High card is a little miffed by watching what happend to the card. I will be watching to see if they change the population report on it.<br /><br />Here are other Yum Yums to compare borders on... When I get mine graded at SGC.. WHo should I ask for? JC <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1134099036.JPG"> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1134099058.JPG"> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1134099077.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>FYS</b><p>"That's great that SGC is made of aware of this deal. However, it seems like nothing can or will be done."<br /><br />Although none of us know what the exact final outcome will be, it is 100% clear that SGC backs the cards that they grade. Simply put, SGC will/would do more than any other grading company that exists to fix an error. Nuff said! <br /><br />They make mistakes, but they make them less frequently. When they do make mistakes, they do not stick their head in the sand, but to the contrary are rather proactive.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>It seems inconsistent on the one hand for people to say they don't have a problem with erasing pencil marks, removing ink, etc. (as distinct from trimming rebuilding corners etc. etc.), but on the other hand for people to complain about someone doing this on a crackout and then resubmitting the card to SGC. If the "restoration" or whatever neutral term we use is permissible, then SGC graded two different cards, in effect. Why does it make any difference that the card came out of a slab? Analytically isn't it exactly the same as if the card had never been graded and the same "restorations" performed?

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Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>There have been several comments to the effect that the grading companies differentiate between power erasing and mere erasing by hand with an eraser. I don't think this is true. I once submitted an E94 Cobb which "acquired" a tiny mark in the white border. I carefully erased the mark with an expensive art eraser and the card came back from SGC as "altered" although what was removed was not something on the card when it was made. The mark could not be seen but apparently under the microscope or loupe or whatever, it showed signs of an erasure. Again, this was in the border and very small.

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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>SGC...Best Holders, Very intelligent and personable, hard working owner..one of the hobby's trend setters, deservant of the utmost respect...however....<br /> I recently graded a RARE N172 Old Judge HOFer, card had excellent front, great corners, clarity, image etc...at Phila...7 high end dealers and Bill Mastro himself all felt card was at least a 3, up to a 5... knowing that the pencil erased name was there at one time...<br />Was told by grader that card would only 1.5(SGC 20) due to an erase residual marking on a blank reverse that could only be seen under light,was not obvious and had no tears, no paper loss or glue...absolutely ridiculous when SGC 20 cards could have tears on fronts, stains etc..that really pissed me off.<br /><br />I have seen SGC cards graded with paper loss and or glue, miscuts and heavy rounding grade 2 to 4 consistantly...My card should have been a 3 or 4(looked like a 6)<br /><br />I fault the entire grading industry including GAI, SGC and PSA( and I support them!) for the stupidity of lumping blank backed cards that have a minor eraser from a pencil that should never been there anyway and down graded to a 1.5 or 2 regardless of the front which could be near mint..Why should a creased and rounded card with pencil on back and an ex/mt card be lumped into same category..it makes no sense..<br />Blanked Backed cards with no print should not be given the same scale as cards with full reverses, fronts should be considered and although there is so many things SGC does right, their head grader should be realistic not simplistic, tech grading is really getting impractical when dealing with blank reverses.

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Posted By: <b>Colt McClelland</b><p>I totally agree with Larry's post. Check out these cards I had graded at the National this year:<br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/cmcclelland/oldjudgebrownschampions/websize/zoom-Kemler2.jpg"> <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/cmcclelland/oldjudgebrownschampions/websize/zoom-Welsh2.jpg"><br /><br />They both appear EX or EXMT from the front, but have paper loss on the back from being glued in a scrapbook. Both were graded SGC 10. In my book, they should be SGC 30's for sure. At the least, they should be SGC 20's. I had a long discussion with them about this, and they absolutely would not budge. Ridiculous. As much as I like SGC, I think they sometimes go way overboard and grade cards unfairly.

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Larry's point is well taken.<br /><br />It's my understanding that SGC is giving serious consideration to changing their grading standards for blank-backed cards. Under the contemplated change, the card's grade would be based on the card's front with notations on the grading label as to defects in the back. Perhaps SGC would consider coming on the board and themselves describe this contemplated change.<br /><br />On a similar note, perhaps for photographic cards such as N172s grading companies should take into account the contrast of the photo in assigning a grade. It seems crazy to me to give a N172 with a very light photo but an otherwise great front a higher grade than a N172 with a great photo but with an otherwise soso front.

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Posted By: <b>zach</b><p>Corey-very good point. You see this all the time, a very faded N172 but is in otherwise nice condition graded high. I dont understand this. Does the quality of the photo mean nothing ? I would much rather an SGC 10 N172 Anson with a great photo and maybe some writing on the back than an SGC 80 Anson that was sharp with no writing but faded.

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Posted By: <b>Colt McClelland</b><p>I totally agree with Corey's point as well. This card received a grade of SGC 50:<br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/cmcclelland/oldjudgebrownschampions/websize/zoom-Judge-Browns%20Champ-Nicholl.jpg"><br /><br />How can this be a 50, and the two cards above are 10's just because of back damage? Something is not right about that.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I dont think there is any inconsistency - I think the people who have no problem with hand erasing are the same ones who have no problem with the fact that this card now resides in an sgc 80 slab.<br /><br /><br />Tbob, <br /><br />I think SGC just doesnt like you very much - they seem to always want to reject your cards for things that the rest of us get graded (i.e. trimmed but authentic slabs; erased markes, etc). For example, I just sold this card, but its the most obvious erase job in the world (not done by me though) and yet it graded no problem (though it did get an appropriately low grade):<br /><br /><a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/9227/1910e93dooinf9qm.jpg" border="0" width="395" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/GALVIN.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I feel like I want it.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think grading is still an evolving art and not yet a science and the grading services that want to stay on the cutting edge will recognize that changes need to be made. Every serious collector of Old Judges and similar photographic cards prizes the quality and contrast of the photo over some corner rounding or a little back damage. SGC, among others, will eventually take this into consideration, and whoever is first to recognize this will get the most submissions from collectors, and justifiably so.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>To add to my last post- when a card such as an Old Judge is auctioned and it has a deep rich photo, it always sells for a premium above others of the same grade; and when a card with a light photo is auctioned it typically underperforms. This suggests that buyers are ignoring and disagreeing with the grade assigned to it. That alone should tell the grading companies that they need to reevaluate the process.

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Posted By: <b>Colt McClelland</b><p>Barry, I couldn't agree with you more - or, as we say at my daughter's Indian Princess meeting, "How How."

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Josh- I have no clue why the Cobb was rejected as altered for the tiny erasure in the white border. They circled the spot on the holder to make sure (I guess) that I knew what was altered. This was idiocy to me. The card now rests in a GAI holder and the card (otherwise beautiful) had its grade lowered because of the erasure, but still had a decent grade and looks nice in the slab.