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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>All I can say about these 2 cards I just got back from SGC is, WTF?!?!?! Elliot and number of other people saw these cards at the National. They are much nicer looking than the scans indicate, and certainly far better than the grades indicate.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.attic2cash.net/cards/wtf.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.attic2cash.net/cards/wtfb.jpg"><br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Cummings</b><p>I can see how the centering might have hurt the Clark, but what am I missing on the Manion? The image viewer on my work PC isn't worth a darn, but that still looks a heck of a lot nicer than FAIR.

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Posted By: <b>david</b><p>i would guess there is a wrinkle that is not showing up. sgc has become very strick and hesitant to grade cards vg that have creasing or wrinkles, no matter how subtle

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I agree that centering is the culprit with the clark - that is the downside of not having qualifiers such as OC (which, by the way, I cant stand). That looks no better than 80/20 centering, if that. Though the card looks great otherwise, if the centering doesnt justify the higher grade, it wont get it.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If you read SGC standards, you can get an 84 with the centering that card has. So why the 50? These cards were scrutinized under a loupe by several people before I submitted them. I had about a dozen cards I planning on submitting and ended up only submitting 4 because the other cards had minute flaws that missed on my original inspection. <br /><br />I'll still slab my valuable cards to protect them from myself, but I've given up on submitting supposedly high grade cards. Not one of the cards I submitted graded higher than 50 and everyone thought they would all pull at least 80.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>No comment

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Posted By: <b>Brent Butcher</b><p>It might be my computer or just the scan but it looks like the Manion use to have a piece of tape on the front over LEAGUE. If that's the case then that would explain the low grade. The centering and corners on the Clark appear to be the reason for the vg/ex grade although I could see it pulling an ex grade as well but not much higher. Stll nice cards for the grades escpecially the Manion.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...the grade that came back on the Manion is a perfect example of why we need responsible third party grading. If you had listed that card raw on ebay advertised in EX-MT or higher condition, you might have a very disappointed buyer (with better eyes, or at least higher standards, than you). While you may have looked at that card through a 10x loupe, you're missing something, be it creasing, wrinkles, paper loss, glue/paper stuck on it, a pinhole.... something. If you think it was a mistake, resubmit it for a reevaluation -- either by cracking it out, or in holder. SGC will give you an explanation, I am sure, one way or another.<br /><br />Just a couple of anecdotes, from the two times I was confused about a grade I got (yes, in my 200 or so submission to PSA and SGC, only two confusions total). First, I submitted a VG condition T206 card of Miller to SGC. It came back a 10/1 Poor. I couldn't believe it. I was furious. What did I miss? Well, after closer inspection, I noticed that there was a piece of paper that had been glued onto the front of the player's jersey, as if it had been stuck upside down into a scrap book at one point and then carefully removed. I'm not sure why I missed it after countless observations, but I did. Had I sold that card on ebay without SGC's help, I would have duped some unsuspecting buyer. I might've had an angry client on my hands. SGC erases the doubt.<br /><br />Second, I submitted a VG-EX Chance to PSA years ago (I don't submit cards to PSA because I no longer find them trustworthy or responsible) and it came back with an MK. For years I thought the MK was because of a little stain on the back of the card, and I could never understand why that got an MK, because it certainly wasn't an intentional mark. Then, quite literally years after I had gotten it back, I was examining the card under a 10x loupe for the millionth time and saw it -- a very fine pencil erasure (a number and/or a few letters written in pencil had been erased) that I had never seen before. That's where the MK came from and that's why it only crossed over to an SGC 40. Had I never seen that pencil erasure, I never would've understood grading. Again, if I had sold that card as VG-EX, I may have pissed off a buyer. SGC removes the doubt.<br /><br />I guess my point is, when I'm buying vintage baseball cards of any value on ebay, they had better be graded by SGC or GAI (I will concede PSA is a real risk). Even the best sellers miss wrinkles and writing erasures. They aren't negligent or intentionally deceptive. But I trust SGC. Because when I bought my Chance, it wasn't graded and I thought I was getting a card without pencil erasures on it. <br /><br />Finally, you can bash grading all you want, but the simple truth of the matter is it has made many more collectors than it has taken away. And, it has restored a sense of security and honesty into an industry that was frought with fraud and deception. Are there exceptions? Sure. Does PSA suck? Totally, and they have done a good job of restoring fear and uncertainty in today's collectors. But there is a 100% iron clad unreversible never going away (and I really do mean never) need for trustworthy third party grading. The internet transactions mandate this. It is a paradigm shift -- like horse drawn carriages to automobiles. Were there people who refused to give up their horse buggies for cars? Sure there were. Were they wrong that horse buggies were safer and more economical? Of course not. Do most people own cars today? Indeed. <br /><br />I'll sign off with this metaphor: You are all free to stick with your horse drawn buggies, typewriters and rotary phones, but when you lash out at cars, personal computers and cell phones you kind of look senile to many of us. <br /><br />Cars are a joke. Personal computers are a joke. Cell phones are a joke. MP3 players are a joke. Airplanes are a joke. The wheel is a joke.....<br /><br />Paul (aka T206Collector)

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Posted By: <b>Howie</b><p>I agree with the tape/stain/removal on the Manion. With that centering on Clark the net grade is reflects the card's grade/value. Generally speaking when you show cards to your friends they will tell you what they think you want to hear. When you send them off for grading you get the grader's honest opinion of the cards. Your opinion of the grades shows why professional grading can be helpful in the marketplace. I wouldn't want to buy the Clark advertised as NM and I wouldn't want to buy the Manion advertised at a higher grade and find out later it had tape removed.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />They have left me scratching my head a number of times as well. I also have had similar experiences with PSA. I have a '34 Goudey Waner that I thought would get a least a 4 and it came back as a 2 (no creases or marks, just slightly soft corners). On the other hand, I have a 1935 National Chicle Football Dutch Clark which appears to be well worn (rounded corners, a bit of surface scuffing, but no creases) that I expected to get a 2 or maybe even a 1. It came back as a 3. Again, there are too many factors to be considered (including different individuals doing the grading from instance to instance) when cards are graded. As objective as the grading companies would like us to believe that their standards are, slabbing will always be a subjective venture. Sorry about your luck. Re-submit?

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Paul;<br /><br />I hope you’re not comparing the advent of the automobile, airplane or personal computer to the advent of grading companies. Before the airplane it would take us a weeks or months to travel to certain destinations, I use to be able to buy nice un-altered cards before grading companies popped up. <br /><br />Have grading companies helped new collectors out in some ways? Yes and in some ways no. Sure for collectors who knew nothing before I guess the added comfort of a grading company slab may make it seem safer. The other edge of that knife for all the amateur collectors who depend on their information coming from population charts and grading company BS, take real chances getting burned these are the same guys who buy common cards worth a few hundred dollars for thousands with little or no chance of re-sell. Why because we have created a whole new breed of collector, the collector who collects and educates them selves more on the plastic containers the cards come in more than the cards them selves. <br /><br />I’m tired of bashing grading companies too, but I’m even more tired of hearing how they have saved the hobby, and made it such a safe and more pleasant place for the collector! I would have continued to buy cards and collect, regardless if grading companies were ever invented. I did it before they arrived and I’ll continue after they have gone. <br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />John<br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I seriously doubt anyone told me what I wanted to hear about these cards. As I mentioned, I had about a dozen cards with me, and I decided not to submit 8 of them for various reason. So it's not like everyone was feeding me pie int he sky observations. I knew both of these cards had a problem, i.e. centering and the glue on the front. But there is no way these cards should be carrying the grades they got. With the Clark, you could practically shave yourself, the corner are so sharp and the Manion isn't much worse in the corner department. <br /><br />t206collector, tell you what, you get all your cards slabbed, and I'll buy every card you get back that grades a 20 or 50 that looks like these cards. Only catch is, I'm only gonna pay you according to the technical grade the cards got. I'd love to have a collection of cards that looked like these 2. <br /><br />Jay<br /><br /><br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Grading should drop the numbers and just grade authentic/unaltered. This would solve alot of problems, still protect the online buyer from scams, and have true collectors stay in the hobby. Anyone paying $3K for a common T206, I don't care if it is in an 11 holder, needs their head examined.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>&lt;&lt;I hope you’re not comparing the advent of the automobile, airplane or personal computer to the advent of grading companies.&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br />It's a paradigm shift, more than it is an efficiency improvement. <br /><br />&lt;&lt;I use to be able to buy nice un-altered cards before grading companies popped up.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Grading companies brought a lot of people into the hobby, making your nice unaltered cards worth a lot more today. You can still buy nice un-altered cards. The only downside is cost, but that's high because of the competition.<br /><br />&lt;&lt;population charts&gt;&gt;<br /><br />I agree are an absolute waste -- a distraction at best, misleading advertising at worse.<br /><br />&lt;&lt;guys who buy common cards worth a few hundred dollars for thousands with little or no chance of re-sell.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />The flip value is still high in this area, and getting higher, isn't it? I do expect the bubble will burst at the high end, however.<br /><br />&lt;&lt;Why because we have created a whole new breed of collector, the collector who collects and educates them selves more on the plastic containers the cards come in more than the cards them selves.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />That is a negative offshoot. Eventually, I would expect that the plastic container collector will dig a bit deeper than the cases their cards are slabbed in. <br /><br />&lt;&lt;I’m tired of bashing grading companies too, but I’m even more tired of hearing how they have saved the hobby, and made it such a safe and more pleasant place for the collector!&gt;&gt;<br /><br />I think there is a fair balance to be drawn here. People who say that grading companies are a joke forget that they have made it safer and more pleasant for many collectors. Again, I admit that PSA and PRO have done a good job of fouling this up, too. But the SGC's and the GAI's are on to a good thing. <br /><br />&lt;&lt;I would have continued to buy cards and collect, regardless if grading companies were ever invented. I did it before they arrived and I’ll continue after they have gone.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />That's good. But the only way they're ever going anywhere is when people stop collecting cards. A better way of saying that is while we populate this good green earth we will be sharing it with good and bad grading companies. And I believe that the good ones will win out over the bad ones. <br /><br />&lt;&lt;t206collector, tell you what, you get all your cards slabbed, and I'll buy every card you get back that grades a 20 or 50 that looks like these cards. Only catch is, I'm only gonna pay you according to the technical grade the cards got. I'd love to have a collection of cards that looked like these 2.&gt;&gt; <br /><br />I don't buy or sell the slab. I buy and sell the card. Grading companies provide guidance along the way, that's all. I trust SGC and so far have never been burned by them. I keep one of every T206 card front. I once had two PSA graded Chief Benders (a 5 and a 4). I sold the 5 because I liked the 4 better. Happens all the time. But if I purchase a raw card advertised as EX-MT or better from you, and I find even the slightest fart of a wrinkle on it, you better be ready to send me a refund. You can buy all the SGC 20's you want with faint wrinkles, just don't delude yourself or others into thinking that card is better than VG.<br /><br />&lt;&lt;Grading should drop the numbers and just grade authentic/unaltered. This would solve alot of problems, still protect the online buyer from scams, and have true collectors stay in the hobby. Anyone paying $3K for a common T206, I don't care if it is in an 11 holder, needs their head examined.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />I basically agree with this, but I think the numbers provide guidance especially when the card's scan looks mint, but there's a stain, hole or wrinkle that can only be detected under close inspection. That's when the number tells you, "watch out... there's something here you won't see on first glance." It is like having an expert with you on a purchase of something expensive. It makes a ton of sense to me.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>if you are collecting to fill a hole and not investing, who cares if there is a hidden stain or minute hole that you can only see with the hubble telescope? Yes I think grading is a joke but I do see the protection value for the online buyer as I have stated. I don't like the fact that the grading companies haven't tried to hire or consult with experts who have been in the field much longer than their graders. Case and point, the 3 1910 notebook cards I had returned as counterfeits from SGC. If you don't know, consult with an expert or hire one even if only parttime. Sorry, but I have a huge problem with this part of grading. Yes the young graders can see corners and creases and alterations much better than I, but they should also know the issues they are dealing with. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>The centering is about the same as the Rhoades T206 I sent them back. I thought (and told SGC) the grade should be a 30 b/c of 90/10 centering. They sent it back as a 40 (for those who don't know, it was in a 60 holder). So, I think an SGC 50 is very generous for the centering on that particular card. <br /><br />As for the 20, glue on the front lowers a grade substantially, so I guess that one is technically graded correctly as well (though, it probably could have been a 30 with the eye appeal it has). However, it is one of those SGC 20's, like my Croft's Cocoa Cobb, that is very nice for the technical grade!<br /><br />Personally, I believe SGC is far more lenient on grading these days than they have been in the past.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>The more expensive the expert will be to hire. And, since the issue is rare, there will be very few submissions, so it becomes cost prohibitive. You could keep someone on staff as an independent contractor for piecemeal work, I suppose. And, I guess I thought that grading companies did that sort of thing. At least, I think I've read that they do. And if they don't, I agree that they should.<br /><br />Dan, you submitted those notebooks to SGC, but you were already comfortable in the knowledge that they were authentic, and you do not like numbers on slabs but would prefer that they just authenticate cards, then why did you submit these notebooks to SGC in the first place? It's none of my business, but it sounds a tad hypocritical.<br />

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I agree whole heartedly with what many of you have said and your concerns. Being "old school", I at first rejected the idea of grading my cards but I lightened up over the years as my personal views wouldn't matter and the hobby would live on. There are still a lot of people who know nothing of eBay and would rather utilize the want ads. I don't want to be like that.<br /><br />Would I prefer the old days? Yes! Grading is a necessary evil and does make collecting easier for the novices and dealing without being able to view the card. Today we depend so much on scans that even a bad scan can add reassurance to the potential buyer. <br /><br />The analogy is: eBay has made the baseball card show a dinosaur as graded cards and the population report has made the price guide a dinosaur. <br /><br />Would I ever pay $7K for a PSA9 of a T206 common? Hell No! <br /><br />Would I pay $500 for an n172 John Ward that is visually appealing but has an ever so small wrinkle and corner pinhole that has been graded a 40 because of this? Hell Yes!<br /><br />I will leave this transmission with the philosophical (sp?) of the 1980's Tv Show "Facts Of Life":<br /><br />You take the good, you take the bad,<br />you take them both and there you have<br />The facts of life, the facts of life.<br /><br />Also, if you want to see a documentary on the PSA Grading process, check out the link:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.psacard.com/grading/process.chtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/grading/process.chtml</a><br /><br />DJ

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I submitted the notebook cards for the simple reason that people are paying more for slabbed cards. My keeper collection has 1 slabbed card in it and my for sale stuff is about 50% slabbed. As hypo as it may seem, since people will pay more for slabbed, heck, I slab crap I am selling. And just an authentic/unaltered would be fine for me for everything I submit. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I would like to add that I do not care what is on front of that Goudey on the left, that card is much better than fair.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Old school, yes that Manion is much better than fair. However, the grading companies have established what are intended to be objective standards. If their standards significanly lower a grade for tape stain and you submit to them, you have to be prepared to accept a grade based on those standards. Its not much different than a nice front with paperloss on the back - the paperloss is a killer even though the card looks great. Here is the perfect example (this is also posted in the Johnson thread by the way). I have absolutely no argument with the technical grade this rec'd - even though its a much nicer looking card than the grade would indicate.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1123723651.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1123738826.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Sorry, call me whatever you like, that grade on your Johnson is ridiculous.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...is a good analogy, indeed. I would like to state that it is very easy to keep a card crease free and with sharp corners for 100 years if you glue it into a scrap book. In a sense, it's cheating. So, while it maintains the beauty of a card's front, some of us like to have the whole card's condition be maintained. That is what truly makes a rare vintage card.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />How much glue is on the front of the Manion?

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>really? A rare vintage card is a card that there isn't many of in ANY condition. A true collector wouldn't care in my opinion. Do you want the card or only the card in perfect condition? I guess I am just not catching on with the current idea.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>T206collector,<br /><br />Good point. While SGC's treatment of back damage may be seen as too severe by some, take a look at other antiques and collectibles as a point of reference. Generally speaking, when an item is "incomplete" (i.e., something is missing) the value (and grade) are substantially lower. In the same way that an 18th century antique desk is worth less (and graded much lower) if each of the legs have had 1" sawed off or if a mural has been removed from the surface, an early 20th century baseball card is worth less (and graded much lower) if there is paper loss on the reverse side.<br /><br />(I should note that exceptions sometimes occur if an item is extremely rare or unique).

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Are you serious? Or are you just being argumentative. This is not ground-breaking news here. Condition drives value because of scarcity.

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Posted By: <b>DeanH3</b><p>All 3 grading companies hammer cards with glue or paper loss. GAI hammered my Cobb that has glue/paste residue on the back that is virtually invisible unless you tilt the card against a light. Still then almost impossible to see. BTW I paid alot for this card and I have no regrets.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1123795828.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1123795976.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...I am not just entering this hobby. I purchased my first Goudey card when I was 16 in 1989 and have been a regular purchaser of T206 cards since 1997. When my friends and I were trading 1987 Topps cards of Pete Incaviglia for 1987 Topps cards of Kal Daniels, we understood that cards with bubble gum stains on the reverse were not worth as much as ones with clean backs. It was pretty basic stuff and, in my opinion, continues to be.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Dean,<br /><br />Ive been looking for a low grade, but nice looking green cobb for awhile - that is a freakin beaut. and I too would take that in a second regardless of the grade.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Since were cutting and pasting…<br /><br />“The more expensive the expert will be to hire. And, since the issue is rare, there will be very few submissions, so it becomes cost prohibitive.”<br /><br />At between $5-10 a card to grade and $50 a card for on site grading, I really don’t feel that its that cost prohibitive to have someone who knows what their doing. Labeling something as fake when you have no idea of what you are doing takes all creditability away. I was always taught if you don’t know the answer say you don’t know, don’t make things up. They should have returned Dan’s cards with a note that said we don’t know enough about these to authenticate them. This also raises the question if they missed this one what makes me think that they didn’t miss the trim on the NRMT Ty Cobb I’m about to buy?<br /><br />“I think there is a fair balance to be drawn here. People who say that grading companies are a joke forget that they have made it safer and more pleasant for many collectors. Again, I admit that PSA and PRO have done a good job of fouling this up, too. But the SGC's and the GAI's are on to a good thing.”<br /><br />Ok but another guy uses this same sentence but switches it around to say that SGC and GAI are jokes and PSA is on the ball. Another guy feels GAI is the only way to go. Well looks like were right back to subjectivity, which is what we had before grading companies, so, what have they solved? Saying one company is more trust worthy than the other is scary as hell to me! We used to do that with dealers and sellers, we would say “Blank” grades tough and “Blank” over grades etc. Which was fine with me, over time you knew who to trust and who to inspect closely. But it seems now we have replaced “Blank” with a three-letter abbreviation. The problem here is the card from “Blank” was a lot cheaper than the mistake or over graded card from “PSA” “SGC” etc. <br /><br />“Grading companies brought a lot of people into the hobby, making your nice unaltered cards worth a lot more today. You can still buy nice un-altered cards. The only downside is cost, but that's high because of the competition.”<br /><br />I’ll be the first to go on record that I would agree with you to a point. I’ll also say that many of my cards are worth too much in my opinion. There is just no need for some of the prices these cards are pulling, is it because of rarity? (On some cards sure) Is it because of supply & demand? (Once again on some cards) The main reason for these prices is the influx of un-educated collectors and grading company hype. Collectors who know very little about the items they are collecting who are chasing pop reports (which are pointless) or are buying into the highest ever graded hype. There are a whole new breed of collectors who are only interested in the price realized and bragging rights regarding value/grade of a card (Adam J. Morine), and this is driving the regular collectors out of the hobby, and will have a very negative effect sooner or later. <br />

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>I was thinking of posting something on this topic previously but I no longer thought it was relevant once the thread died.<br /><br />I agree with SGC's analysis of Dan's cards as "counterfeit". To me, a counterfeit card isn't just one that is laser copied and pasted to a piece of card board. I believe the word "counterfeit" can also refer to a scrap of paper that was never meant to be collected or traded as a baseball card. In this way, the word counterfeit should not be limited to that which is merely "reprinted" or "fake" or "fraudulent". I think it can also mean that which would be deceptive -- seen as a legitimate baseball card -- if professionally graded and encapsulated. In my mind and using a definition that is very much within the bounds of reason, there is no question that Dan's cards were "counterfeit" in the sense that they were not legitimate or authentic baseball cards.<br /><br />Could SGC have come up with a better word to describe what Dan submitted? Sure. But I don't think the word "counterfeit" is unsuitable or problematic when seen from a context of what is a real baseball card and what is not.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Absolutely. But the idea is that the grading company doesn't (or at least shouldn't) have a vested interest in the ultimate sale of the card. Dealers who grade the cards they sell have an inherent conflict of interest. Third party grading is much more reliable. And of course we'll have to find graders that are trustworthy. Heck, I started with PSA, and then listened to the horror stories and bought some PSA graded cards with obvious flaws that did not factor into the grade. I don't buy PSA cards any more if I can help it. And if I do, they get crossed over to SGC so fast it would make your head spin. <br /><br />BUT... and I have no qualms about this... I realize that in five years from now the SGC name might mean fraud/dishonesty/etc. And if that's the case, I will have to pony up some significant cash to cross my collection over into a company that is trustworthy. The alternative would be to establish through SGC serial numbers that my cards were graded at a time when SGC was at it's prime. That is, if I were going to sell them. I could always keep them, content in the knowledge that they were graded by the best at the time of grading. And, to me, that's all that matters.<br /><br />Finally, people competing to fill out set registries is a short term boon that will burst, I agree. My best example of that is a T206 Mathewson portrait in PSA 6 condition. I saw one sell on ebay two years ago for $3,500. I was thrilled because I own one too in that condition. But lately, the prices of PSA 6/SGC 80 Matty portraits has been a lot closer to $1,500 than $3,500. Trends come and go, so do collectors, but card grading is not a trend ....it's a paradigm shift, and it's here to stay.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Interesting take MW. But a lot of grading companies grade or authenticate items that aren’t collected in the traditional way that baseball cards were. What would be your take on Scrapps, Silks, Stamps, Cabinets, Premiums or Autographs?

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Paul; <br /><br />I here you and you make some valid points, I guess I’m just of the school of thought that I would rather spend the thousands of dollars that it would take to get someone’s opinion that my cards are ok, and buy that Magie I’ve been needing for years. The Magie would bring me much more happiness than knowing I had the 14th highest graded example of a card. And dare I say make my collection more valuable in the long run vs. having all my cards in little plastic holders. <br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Yes I am serious. And that is my point. You started in the late 80s when the hobby was booming. You are a newbe to me. In the late 60s and 70s, we collected to fill sets. The value didn't come in to play near as much. You are driven by value, I collected to fill in the number I was missing. You are not wrong, just different. Yes, I am very serious Mr. T206collector.<br><br>MW, that is incredible. How can you say those notebooks were not issued in that format so that kids could cut off the players and collect them? Counterfeit means fake, reprinted, bogus to most people I know. Of course I hang with people like myself, uneducated.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>John,<br /><br />Dan submitted his notebook cover cutouts to be graded as baseball cards, not as Scrapps, Silks, Stamps, Cabinets, or Premiums.<br /><br />In the same way that Roy Huff's Spalding and Whitman paper scraps are "counterfeit baseball cards" so too are Dan's notebook cover cutouts.<br /><br />The issue isn't whether or not Dan's items were legitimate or real (they were). It was whether or not they were legitimate or real <b><i>baseball cards</i></b> (they were not). The label counterfeit, while exclusive when applied in a limited way, is appropriate in its proper, baseball-card-specific context.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Holy sh$t Mike, I think you gave me a headache. You know Mike, your point would make more sense if that was why they said they were counterfeit. But when I referenced them in the standard catalog, they apologized and gave me a $24 credit. Dave are you reading this again??

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i>"Counterfeit means fake, reprinted, bogus to most people I know."</i><br /><br />Dan,<br /><br />In a general sense, I agree. But when applied specifically to submissions to a company that grades baseball cards, it can also mean "deceptive, simulated or feigned." An item need not be made (or cut out) with an intent to defraud in order to be counterfeit. <br /><br />I would also note that not everything that has a baseball player's picture on it is suitable for grading, although it may be suitable for collecting or scrapbooking. SGC's grading standards are developed, in part, to protect the consumer. If an item is not a baseball card then it should not be graded as such.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Mike, I have no problem with them not grading them, my problem is with the why they didn't grade them. I was the first to state that the items shouldn't have been cataloged. But they are and no matter how you say it, they are not counterfeits which means fakes of an original item to me. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Dan, <br /><br />Didn't you talk to Sean about your issue at the National or while you were setting up your ad in the magazine? If not, please do so.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Sean who? I spoke to Dave Forman and Scott. Dan

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i>"You know Mike, your point would make more sense if that was why they said they were counterfeit. But when I referenced them in the standard catalog, they apologized and gave me a $24 credit."</i><br /><br />Dan,<br /><br />OK. I'm glad everything worked out. But I don't think you're giving the graders enough credit. Granted, you have some very good reasons to be anti-grading just as I have some valid reasons to favor it. Given the amount of material they've seen, I'm quite confident SGC's graders can distinguish between something that is period and something that is not. Unless you spoke directly with Bob and Scott I don't think it's fair to presume what they were thinking as they examined each item.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I spoke directly with Scott and they didn't think it was period Mike. Sorry, you won't sell me on this one. Plus they are cataloged in the Standard Catalog. A professional grader of vintage cards should know that book in my opinion. I am by no means upset by how SGC handles my items and problems. They are wonderful people to deal with and I have known Dave forever. I am just making a point, a weak part of professional grading in my opinion. The pro's should know what they are looking at. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />Is it the cut-out player pictures that are catalogued or the entire notebook?

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>The individual players are cataloged and I personally do not agree with that. I have always told people they were from a notebook but who listens to me?

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Hate to get in the middle of the battle over symantics but here is a link from SGC's page on Explantion of Rejections. SGC could have rejected Dan's items coded as NO, which means Cannot/Do Not Grade. Based on that option available to SGC, it would appear they felt the items were not legit at the time of submission. <a href="http://www.sgccard.com/default.asp?PageID=2" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccard.com/default.asp?PageID=2</a> Clearly SGC, as does GAI and PSA, distinguish between "questionable authenticity" and an "inability to grade."<br /><br />With all of that said, I feel that SGC does a remarkable job.<br /><br />Greg<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />I don't agree with that either. If period player pictures cut from a notebook cover can be catalogued then why can't player photos cut from a Spalding baseball guide also be catalogued?<br /><br />Also, I had no idea that Bob told you he didn't think the items were period.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Bob? Scott the grader told me they looked like the laser fakes that scammers are doing. I told him I think I would have known better. They do favor those laser copies but I still must make my points here. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />Sorry, I meant Scott, not Bob.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Here you go -- a GAI 2 of Clark Griffith for $115.00 as a Buy It Now. Looks Nearmint, or so the seller says. But careful of that back damage...<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-Clark-Griffith-Portrate-GAI-2-Looks-Like-NM_W0QQitemZ5229415520QQcategoryZ106178QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-Clark-Griffith-Portrate-GAI-2-Looks-Like-NM_W0QQitemZ5229415520QQcategoryZ106178QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem</a>

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>A HUGE pet peeve is when a seller places a dishonest value on a card. <br /><br />The same seller as above has a: 1909 T206 Mordecai Brown GAI Graded BV $500. He says "BV$500". <br /><br />Too bad it's a GAI2 and worth about...$60-70. <br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-Mordecai-Brown-GAI-Graded-BV-500_W0QQitemZ5229410772QQcategoryZ106178QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-Mordecai-Brown-GAI-Graded-BV-500_W0QQitemZ5229410772QQcategoryZ106178QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a><br /><br />DJ

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>You all have very valid points and I do understand where you are coming from. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this subject with all of you. Thanks again for a super discussion and happy collecting no matter how you collect. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Jerry Spillman</b><p>I had many cards graded by SGC and was satisfied with a few of exceptions.<br /><br />One of the exceptions was the grade given on the T206 Cobb that is the last card below on the right. The explained reason given for the low grade was due to an indentation above the "nt" in Piedmont on the back of the card. <br /><br />When I later examined the card with a magnifying glass I could only find normal wear in that area.<br /><br />For comparison I am showing a few other cards that I found that were award a of grade 40 by SGC. <br /><br />Consistent grading?<br /><br /><a href="http://home.tampabay.rr.com/jspillman/sgc.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://home.tampabay.rr.com/jspillman/sgc.htm</a><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Jay,<br /> In the scan it appears as if there is actucal tape remnance on the card which would justify the grade. Is the tape still on the card?

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>It seems all three of the major grading companies are tough on Cobb cards. I had a nice VG T206 Lenox Cobb Bat Off Shoulder graded a "1" by PSA (later cracked it out and traded it to Lipset, who sold it as VG in his auction). <br /><br />Last year, I had an SGC 20 E98 Cobb I thought was a SOLID GD and might get a 2.5 from GAI. I sent it in with several other cards to GAI. GAI graded it a 1.5 and the rest of the cards graded EXACTLY what I thought they would grade (Tbob has this Red E98 now - you can ask him - much nicer than "Fair").<br /><br />The one good point is that if you are buying Cobb cards, you can almost rest assured (unless a major auction house sent them to PSA for grading) that you are getting a nice card for the grade.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Jerry,<br /><br />I agree with you 100% - all the other cards are 40s in my opinion. The last cobb should easily be a 50. I would seriously consider breaking it out and resubmitting it.

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Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>i'm with you on this Jay.<br />at least you know how great the cards look---and that's what matters<br />most ultimately.<br /><br />all the best<br /><br />Barry

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Mike, it goes down into the red about 1/8". It is no where near as noticable as in the scan. There is no tape left there, just residue. This card comes from a collection that I am working on buying that has this same residue on the back. It looks more like the residue from a stamp hinge than a piece of tape.<br />t206col, you don't have to worry about ever buying a card from graded Ex/NM or any other grade. This becuase I do not state grades of cards I sell. I provide large, hi-res scans with my auctions and note any flaws the card might have that doesn't appear on the scan. <br /><br />The thing that is most disconcerting about the grade of Manion card is that when I putting together my N2 set, I submitted a card with glue on the back that looked like grill marks to see what grade it would get even though the corners were mint and had no creases. This card came back a 40. I got to see Andy Baran's n162 Ewing that has the same glue marks on the back and it also got a 40. Did this card get a 20 becuase it's on the front? I've looked at this card again and I cannot find any hidden flaws.<br /><br />The big question with Clark is, SGC says a card with this centering can get no higher grade than 84. Does this mean that they start 84 and then start deducting from there? If so, that is fine. This means the card would have graded 86 with normal centering if you start from 98 and work down or 88 if you start at 100.<br /><br />The only problem with deducting grades starting at 84 is that grade drops are much more drastic starting at 84 than 100 or 98. Starting at 100, a card dropping 4 grades goes from Pristine (their term) to NM/Mint. Starting at 84, you go from NM to VG. If this is how they are doing it, and seems to make sense, then this very flawed since the speration of grades after NM is huge and gets even worse the more you move down the scale.<br /><br />SGC has 100 point scale, why not make use of it?<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>RC Mckenzie</b><p>I begrudgingly like sgc because the cards look better in their holders, if PRO comes up with a cooler holder, then i'll probably send my cards to them. GL all.

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>If I bought that Clark sight unseen as a SGC 84, I would literally throw up the second I saw it. I don't buy cards sight unseen, just making a point. At best it should be a SGC 60 with that centering. I have no problems with SGC grading it a 50. If the corners are good, PSA may give it something like PSA 8MC or PSA 7MC. But if you wanted a NQ, I have no doubt it would be a PSA 5 or PSA 4.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>I would bet it has a very, very tiny surface wrinkle, possibly on the back where it doesn't show well. I have had a couple of similar beautiful cards come back from SGC as vgex, and knew immediately that I had missed a very tiny wrinkle. These aren't creases, and aren't bends, but rather tiny folds that were created originally with the card and that sometimes can barely even be seen once the card is slabbed.<br /><br />If there is no such wrinkle, then SGC missed one, but I doubt it.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>The lower the grade, the more variance there will be in appearance between two cards graded equally. All SGC 100's of the same card will look the same. SGC 10's of the same card will be like snowflakes -- no two will look the same, as they will have lots of reasons for being graded poor, from a tack hole, to paper loss, to rat chews, to shredding, etc. So, it is not at all surprising that two cards graded SGC 40 will look different, or have been graded that way for a reason. <br /><br />&lt;&lt;t206col, you don't have to worry about ever buying a card from graded Ex/NM or any other grade. This becuase I do not state grades of cards I sell. I provide large, hi-res scans with my auctions and note any flaws the card might have that doesn't appear on the scan.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />The point was not that you would assign a grade, but that your description of the card would omit certain flaws that you yourself either did not see or did not consider a flaw. <br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I just cannot understand those who dismiss the population of a card as a indicator of value. IMO, it has become the single most important indicator of value in mainstream pre-war and 1948-69 graded sportscards.<br />Simply put, price is a function of supply and demand. More collectors are getting their sportscards graded and indisputably more collectors are looking to put together high grade sets whether it is 1933 Goudey or 1957 Topps.<br />For example in 1962 Topps without question the most valuable card in high grade is Don Landrum which is a pop 1 in psa 8 or better.<br />In pre-war, pop 1 T206s in psa 8 have sold for over $5,000--how many nrmt-mt T206s are there that have not been graded? There are commparable examples in most other mainstream sets. As vintage collectors look to put together high grade sets in 8 or better, it seems to me that the demand for high end low pop cards will exceed the supply(and prices will go up). It has certainly worked out that way so far.<br />Thus, I feel the best investment you can make these days is low pop high end vintage graded cards.<br /><br />\Dav

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>If the population numbers were an actual reflection of the number of those cards in that condition in the market, you would be right on. But those population numbers do not reflect that at all. Indeed, especially with pre-war, you would have to include all SGC and GAI cards along with the PSA cards, to start. And then you'd have to have some understanding of how many ungraded samples of those cards were out there. Since no one knows the answer to that, it's all a big guess. And the numbers do not even provide you with any accurate direction there. <br /><br />All you have been seeing is people without an understanding of supply and demand thinking that if there are only two PSA 10 Nap Lajoie Throwing cards graded by PSA, then there must only be two Nap Lajoie Throwing cards in that condition in existence, when, in reality ... no one really knows. And plenty of people on this board have and will chime in that they have minty mint tobacco cards that they keep unslabbed -- and there are a lot of these collectors, perhaps more than the fools who still rely on PSA (as opposed to SGC or GAI) to grade their pre-war cards.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>"Thus, I feel the best investment you can make these days is low pop high end vintage graded cards.<br /><br />Dav"<br /><br />Jim:<br /><br />An interesting premise, for sure. I don't know if "investment" is what I would call it - although you [and others] have benefited from purchases made years ago that have subsequently been flipped to such collectors.<br /><br />However, I think it would be highly remiss for a card investor to spend $5,000 on a Pop 1 PSA 8 T206 common today. A population increase will surely decrease value - and it is hard to suggest that such a card would be worth significantly more anytime soon. Realistically - there are only three or four collectors I think who pay those amounts for a T-206 card. For that sort of money, I think a nice Cobb or otherwise might be a better investment.<br /><br />With low population commons - one only needs to look at certain 1952 Topps PSA 8 cards [Del Crandall, etc.] to see how precipitous the drop in 'value' can be when populations rise.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>T206 Collector,<br /><br />I agree that SGC and GAI pops should be combined with PSA. <br /><br />I don't agree with the following:<br /><br />1)I do not think there is much high grade pre-war material that has not been graded. By high grade I mean nrmt-mt or better. I have found that most collectors who think they have nrmt-mt cards or sets don't--at least by the standards of the Big 3 grading companies.<br /><br />2)To the extent that there is more than I am estimating, the sample size is large enough for most of the popular pre war sets(and all of the popular post-war sets) that the distribution of newly graded 8s and better is likely to be similar to the distribution of those already graded. Thus, the cards that are condition rarities today are likely to be the condition rarities tomorrow.<br /><br />Regardless, the market is telling us that pop is the key driver of pricing in vintage graded sports cards.<br /><br />Dav

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Posted By: <b>brian p</b><p>People who believe in the accuracy of vintage population reports probably haven't been in the vintage hobby for long. Collecting vintage cards didn't just spring up with the advent of grading companies; trust me, there are plenty of collectors out there who have never used a grading company, who gave up on the hobby years ago, etc. Also sometimes on this board I think there is a tendency to believe that we board contributors are the only collectors who are interested in these cards, while there are countless lurkers and plenty of people who have never heard of this board. I am a low grade collector, never used a grading company, but after over twenty years of collecting damn if I don't got a handful of cards that would top the grading charts. Do I plan on getting them graded? No. Maybe when it comes time to sell 30-40 years down the road, but until then they and my other cards stay free of any population reports. I think population charts will only be closer to an accurate indication of condition availabilty of a particular card in about that time frame, when cards from long time collectors have filtered through the system, and then at this time sadly the real condition rarity will be the vintage card that is not suffocating between slabs of plastic.<br /><br />Brian

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>&lt;&lt;I do not think there is much high grade pre-war material that has not been graded.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Many would disagree, and I am sure will make their voices known below.<br /><br />&lt;&lt;To the extent that there is more than I am estimating, the sample size is large enough for most of the popular pre war sets(and all of the popular post-war sets) that the distribution of newly graded 8s and better is likely to be similar to the distribution of those already graded.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />The sample sizes you were talking about were 1 of 1's or 1 of 2's or 1 of 8's. That's not a very large sample size. You're likely talking about the sample size of, e.g., all Lajoies that have been graded. And I just do not think the verdict is out yet. You're looking at the exit polls to see who is going to win the election. I'm saying there are way too many that are too close to call.<br /><br />&lt;&lt;the cards that are condition rarities today are likely to be the condition rarities tomorrow.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Again, who knows.<br /><br />But I don't dabble in PSA 8 or higher T206 cards, because I believe, notwithstanding what PSA or SGC or GAI think, that most of those cards have been altered in some way. Call me a skeptic, but I'll take light fuzz on my corners any day over the sharp in my pre-war collection. Plus, it's easier on the wallet!

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Marc,<br /><br />Yes its true I have flipped low pop T206 psa 8s recently for 15-20X what I bought them for a frew years ago but since I am not trying to complete that set in 8 or better, I wanted to use the funds to completeb the 33 Goudey Sports Kings set in psa 8.<br /><br />Anyway, I think you will always see volatility in pricing but there is a huge gap that has opened up in literally every set I collect in the value of commons based on their population. I think that will continue and even widen.<br /><br />Yes, Del Crandall's 1952 Topps cards in psa 8 are down from the peak as are Wehmeier's but they skyrocketed when Marshall and Charlie just had to complete their sets. If you look at the most recent sales, those cards are back on the rise....as are the cards of most other low pop 52 Topps cards.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />One other thing about the pop reports that makes them suspect is the constant crossing of cards b/t grading companies. I take all my psa's and cross them to sgc - does psa subtract from their pop report when I do this? Of course not. If I then sell the card to someone who crosses it back to psa - you suddenly have an extra card in the same grade that doesnt really exist (of course that is assuming psa, or for that matter any grading company, is consistent enough to give the card the same grade twice)

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Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>There is no question this is true. <br /><br />Unfortunately, when you start getting into the lower grades, you start talking about things like "technical merit". In other words, there are a number of different things that can drop the grade of a card, despite the card having fantastic eye appeal. As we've all seen with the examples in this thread, a card can have dynamite centering, beautiful corners, and a very crisp image - but as soon as it has glue residue on the back, or the tiniest tear, or a small indent, or a small erasure mark, the grade drops.<br /><br />The upshot of this for us as collectors, is it's entirely possible to get a gorgeous card for a low price, simply because of the number on the slab. I've got a number of cards like this in my collection, and I'm thrilled to have them.<br /><br />However, I can definitely understand disagreeing with the grade. I've got a bunch of 1938 Goudeys that have graded PSA-2, that are some of the nicest-looking examples from that set that I've seen. I've got T206s that look gorgeous, but are sitting in low-grade holders. That's fine with me - I bought the cards for my own collection, they're mine, I'm keeping them, and so the number on the slab really doesn't matter as much to me.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>T206 Colllector,<br /><br />Do you really think that "most psa 8 T206 cards have been altered? Thats quite a statement. You are saying that if you took the entire psa population of psa 8s that over half have been altered?<br /><br />On the sample size issue, I am saying that if their were 1000 1933 Goudeys graded PSA 8 and a particular common had a pop of 3, that the sample size is big enough for the mainstream prewar sets that it is going to continue to be a low-pop card in the future. There is a reason at this point that certain cards are low pop and it isn't just by chance.<br /><br />Could there be a lot of nrmt-mt cards lurking pre-war that will become psa 8s or SGC 88s and alter current value perceptions? Perhaps--but I doubt it.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>steve k</b><p>Yes - the Manion most probably has a filled in pinhole. Certainly worth resubmitting, but would probably come back the same grade. Cards such as this are one good reason exactly why grading is needed.<br><br>I have stated this before, that when cards appear way undergraded, like this Manion, the reason should be listed in the description.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>&lt;&lt;Could there be a lot of nrmt-mt cards lurking pre-war that will become psa 8s or SGC 88s and alter current value perceptions? Perhaps--but I doubt it.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Again, you may doubt it, but I have no basis to doubt it. In fact, evidence from this board (a pretty significant amount of information) suggests otherwise.<br /><br />Let me share a couple of links with you:<br /><br />This is my T206 set registry (with scans) on the SGC website.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/index.asp?action=3&setcategory=1&setid=243&usetid= 1015" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.sgccardregistry.com/index.asp?action=3&setcategory=1&setid=243&usetid= 1015</a><br /><br />And this is my T206 set registry (with scans) on the PSA website.<br />(As point of reference, compare my three Mathewsons on the SGC website and on PSA's website).<br /><br /><a href="http://www.psacard.com/set_registry/display_cards.chtml?rsetid=35985&alltime=no&rank=3 2&tied=0&requesttimeout=9999" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/set_registry/display_cards.chtml?rsetid=35985&alltime=no&rank=3 2&tied=0&requesttimeout=9999</a><br /><br />I do not own any of the PSA cases that holdered the cards on this link any more. I haven't in over 6 months. But right now, SGC and PSA would tell you that there are two sets of Mathewsons out there, when there are only one. And I am certainly not the only person that has done this.<br />

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>I am not making a blanket statement about "most" "some" or "all" PSA 8's having been altered. But I view with suspicion every T206 card that grades higher than a 6. It's just my nature. It's a gut feeling. A skepticism. There have in the past been a zillion posts on the topic of whether the T206 Wagner PSA 8 (you know, Gretsky's old card) was trimmed. I have no knowledge independent or otherwise, just that there is a lot of suspicion over that card.<br /><br />I have had PSA cards fail to cross over to SGC because of evidence of trimming. If it happens to me with PSA 5's, then it of course happens with the really sharp stuff.<br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>The point about the pops not being exact because of multiple submissions of the same card or because of submitting one company's holder to get in another is fair. However, most collectors are dealing with the pops as they are and act accordingly.<br /><br />I too have had a number of altered cards come back to me--mainly from psa when I used to collect ungraded sets. I did not look at the cards I bought under magnification and bought them from some of the most reputable dealers in the hobby--also bought some from some dealers who are not so reputable.<br /><br />Because of my experiences, I do see the grading companies as the "saviors" of the hobby--I know a large number of collectors who would not have continued in the hobby or gotten into it without the advent of reputable grading companies.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>rob</b><p>One can have a very eye appealing VG-EX card with a light wrinkle on the back, clearly such a card should (and usually does) get a higher price on ebay than the usual rounded corner off centered graded VG-EX. I got a NrMt-Mt grade on a card which had a huge bubble of paper pulp in the middle of the card, which would had been a Mt condition card otherwise. Getting dropped 1 grade on a bigger flaw a light wrinkle, which can be 2-3 grade drop doesn't seem right. I don't have a solution, as changes in grading standards would probably bring more grading inconsistencies than what can be noticed now.<br /><br />My experience with SGC has been rather bad, about a third of my submissions were a grade too low, and about a third of these undergrades were 2 grades too low. In those cases, I cracked the cards out of the holder, got more for them raw than the horrible SGC undergrades. SGC does not know their British issues, and that is reflected in their population reports.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>It's actually worse than that - the industry standard is that a card with any type of wrinkle, regardless of how small, cannot be higher than "VGEX". That includes any pack-fress mint card with a tiny, tiny factory surface wrinkle on the back.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>These cards are also perfect examples of why the slabbers need to send a report card along with the slab so that people can understand why the card got the grade it did. It wouldn't be that much more work and I'd be more than willing to pay a bit extra if they offered that service.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.