Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>I know the topic of grading is about as heated as the Bosox/Yanks rivalry. However, I'm really leaning towards only buying graded cards. While I really appreciate them out of the plastic holders, it's getting VERY tough to find unaltered cards otherwise.<br /><br />Recently, I've acquired several raw cards in hopes of completing my set. I purchased these cards through honest, reputable sellers. However, nearly all of them had some mild to major trimming and/or altering. I know there are raw examples that are untouched floating around somewhere. I don't blame the sellers as they probably don't spend a lot of time examining a lower-grade common. <br /><br />Grading companies are far from perfect. But, I would guess that you have a better chance at getting an unaltered card buying it in a holder.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>The sad fact is that a slabbed card has more value to certain buyers...<br /><br />so a seller would be foolish to NOT get a card slabbed and graded as high as possible.<br /><br />Thus, I am at the point where I believe that any UNSLABBED card has "something" wrong with it that kept the seller from having it slabbed and having the value increased.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>scott</b><p> i'm with you on that fact anson.at times i feel confident in buying a great raw card but something in me keeps me from doing it.nothing would stink more then plunking down a couple hundred $$ or more,then have a grading company break the bad news.i'm torn at times but everytime i read about another bad experience i forget about raw.i don't blame reputable dealers either because they probably do not go over the low to midgrade cards like the higher ones.i feel like a have raw vs. graded bipolar disorder!<br /> <br /> scott

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>the raw E101's you bought from me all graded and were unaltered (even though PSA was a little strict on a few of them).

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Although top notch ungraded cards can be found they are few and far between. Until a person has sat down and really talked with a grader as to what they look at on a card they are really just guessing. Grading is not a perfect thing as i have owned many cards that to me the grade is off, but it does weed out the majority of the trimmed and altered cards. Some collectors will disagree but grading is here to stay. My opinion is to only buy graded cards.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I too have purchased cards from reputable dealers only to find mild trimming. I play the devil's advocate when I'm looking on eBay with cards that's only flaw is that a seventeen year old surfer doesn't give it a grade. Back in the 1980's, you (at least I)never heard of trimming. When did it become 'vogue' to put nail scissors to cards 80-100 years old? <br /><br />DJ

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Scott E's cards all graded and were exactly what I expected. I've had a few other purchases that didn't go quite as well with other upstanding folks. Luckily, they've all been understanding and professional so far. If anything, I believe it was just an oversight being that they were lower dollar commons. <br /><br />It's not so much about money for me. But, I really want to have the cards in the used condition that they're supposed to have. Round corners are much nicer than recently sharpened ones.<br /><br />Someday I'll finish this darn set. Thanks to all the folks who have helped me so far!<br /><br /><br />BTW Scott, Nice Boss Schmidt <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>"Thus, I am at the point where I believe that any UNSLABBED card has "something" wrong with it that kept the seller from having it slabbed and having the value increased."<br /><br />I personally have the same reservations about buying unslabbed even cards later than prewar, but at the same time PSA is slabbing high numbers of new cards every day the majority of which must be "good," and they can't all be resubmits looking for a higher grade, so where ARE they coming from. I believe that even with the advent of ebay, there are still a lot of local type dealers and shop owners who just don't do grading. A good friend of mine who is a major national dealer keeps amassing a huge inventory of PSA 8s (ok mostly 50s and 60s but still...) so he is getting the raw cards from somewhre.<br />

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Adam J. Moraine</b><p>I prefer ungraded (raw) cards because they are more affordable than graded cards.<br /><br />Best Regards,<br /><br />Adam J. Moraine

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>Hope you like the Bergen you acquired from BCD (that one originated from me as well)! Find a Croft's Cocoa Seigle (any grade) and I have a super nice GAI 3.5 (looks nicer) E101 Seigle to trade!!!!!!!!!

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Damian Anderson</b><p>You just have to look hard and be prepared to deal with the hassle of returns to the sellers over the internent. I have never had refund refused from a seller on a card that I deemed altered or third party deemed altered. Just watch feedback closely and ask questions upfront. There is an element of time investment here though. I buy almost exclusively raw cards and get them graded myself. I have encountered many altered cards doing this and many unaltered. I have learned alot about trimming doing this (and by reading this forum). It has cost me some in grading fees, but at this point I consider it money well spent from the knowledge acquired. I also have learned that my semi-trained eye is often as good as or better than the opinion of the grader. Cards I questioned and wasn't sure about came back graded and cards I know weren't came back as. This is a huge plus when buying in person. Of course this applies only to issues I am familiar with. Third party graders aren't perfect for sure. Just my thoughts. <br /><br />Damian

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>People started taking scissors in hand when Jim Copeland started paying $100 for NM t206 commons. I remember dealers going through my inventory and specifically asking if I had any oversized t205s or t206s. There also a person looking for totally beatten up 33 Goudeys. He wanted them so he could use the paper in cards that he was restoring. This is around 1987. Because of this, I've always been very leery of high grade 33 Goudeys. Who knows what other sets this person has been performing restorations on.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>raw cards are a true crapshoot. Every bum deal I've had has been on raw cards or lousy grading service [PRO] cards. I still buy raw cards but rarely from anyone I don't know. Mostly I buy them in person at shows. There are a surprisingly large number of trimmed raw cards out there and even reputable dealers can carry them, some of whom don't care even if the cards are IDed as trimmed. I once had one spotted at a show by Global's authenticators [felt pretty dumb not spotting it myself, BTW], returned it to the dealer, who I knew and who refunded my $$, AND THEN HE PUT IT RIGHT BACK IN THE CASE FOR THE NEXT SUCKER! Needless to say I don't buy from him anymore.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>You feel safer having someone else, usually with far less vintage card experience than yourself, put a card in a holder and tell you it's NOT trimmed ?!? Or is it that once a trimmed card is slabbed, you are fine with it? i.e, it somehow magically becomes "virgin" again? <br /><br />If you can't trust your own judgement, then you have absolutely NO idea what's in that slab you are so proud of, ESPECIALLY with the high-dollar slabbed cards you see in major auctions. I think there is a lot of rationalization going on among people who have committed major chunks of income to this hobby...and to cards in slabs.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I disagree slightly. Since I know the guys who do the grading at SGC I respect that companies work. I am quite sure that Bob and Scott are better at telling a trimmed card than I am. I think I can tell them fairly well but they handle far more cards than I do. I have handled several thousand vintage cards but I am sure they have handled hundreds of thousands.....(even if not all were slabbed). As for the 2 other major services I have far less confidence in them....although PSA does a good job most of the times. GAI is all over the board and I don't trust them too much ..and I think they grade rather leniently. As for buying raw cards it is really a crap shoot. Almost all full time dealers overgrade according to today's grading company standards, imo. I haven't had too much of a problem with trimmed cards (knock on wood). regards

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>I'm simply making the point that a larger number of graded cards AREN'T trimmed compared to those that are raw. The holder isn't my security blanket other than the fact that statistically it has a better chance of being intact.<br /><br />With all the beating up of the card companies that goes on, MOST of their graded cards are at least unaltered. I don't buy anything (graded or not) that doesn't suit me. But I'm not going act like a bitter old trout over slabbed cards either.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>not to you specifically. Yes, in general the posters on this thread seem to be using slabs as security blankets - I like your analogy.<br /><br />Also, I'm glad to hear you aren't going to be a bitter old trout - A nice fresh plastic aroma sounds much better. <br /><br />Leon - you know exactly what I'm talking about, and we're in agreement.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I've onloy bought one slabbed card on eBay, my 33 Goudey Gehrig. The rest have all been raw and the few I've submitted to slabbed have come back OK. As far as I can tell none of the cards I've bought raw are trimmed except the ones that were stated as such in the auctions like my 41 PlayBall DiMaggio. With my budget, I've learned to develope a tolerance for trimmed cards, especially the die-cuts <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://www.attic2cash.net/cards/t3devlin.jpg"><br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>No one's going to look at a fellow board member's $10,000 PSA8 card and say "hey, isn't that quite a bit short?" - it's bad form - but we'll certainly do that to images in a major auction house catalog (or have we all forgotten?). I know, I know - the plastic case somehow ages the cut.<br /><br />As for lower-grade cards, you buy those slabbed to 'protect' yourselves? Yikes.<br /><br />(By the way, you can buy old trout shrink-wrapped in plastic.)

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>But is the old trout trimmed?<br /><br /><br />I have muc more confidence in an SGC card than one in the raw. Sorry, that's just reality. Nobody is perfect and an occasional mistake will be made. However, I would not be happy with a graded, trimmed card either.<br /><br />I will gladly accept anyone's slabbed cards if the plastic fumes are making them dizzy.<br />

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>SGC does a pretty good job. They are human like all of us and will make occasional mistakes, which in my experience they fix pretty readily and with a minimum of hassle. The GAI graders caught one for me at a show, for which I am thankful. I trust my eyes most of all, but I trust SGC to turn out a good product the vast majority of the time, which is a hell of a lot better odds than I'v experienced on ebay with raw cards.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>Are you guys baiting me? You know I haven't said anything about SGC, and you know how I feel about their work. Don't push - I'm not biting <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />And Anson, the trout in the shrink-wrap might stink and it might not - the plastic sort of hides the "smell".

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p><br />Slabbed (not shrink wrapped) post-war.<br /><br />Generously Graded? <br /><br />Bids at $19.95 for a five cent common card only twenty-five years old.<br /><br />DJ<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1120873342.JPG">

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Is that Trout or Napolean Dynamite?

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Anson...<br /><br />Vote For....<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1120890461.JPG"> <br /><br />DJ

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Adam J. Moraine</b><p>WHY would someone bid almost $20.00, for a PSA graded 10 card of Steve Trout? Which IF NOT graded, you could find at your local card shop/show for about 5 cents.I mean come on guys, Who was Steve trout anyway? I have not even heard of the guy!<br /><br />best regards,<br /><br />Adam J. Moraine

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>C'mon Adam, the famous and great Steve Trout? 12 years in the bigs...88-92 with a touch over 600 lifetime strike outs? Who is being silly here!<br /><br />It's all about the Population Report! I do 'high price' searched on all the grading cards companies when I look on eBay and it amazes me how much $.03 cars sell for in '10' slabs. A Paul Householder 1984 Topps sold for $28 in PSA 10 form a few weeks back! If you don't know Steve Trout, you ain't going to know about a guy who played like ten years in the bigs and averaged three homes a year! The funny thing is that the seller had a PSA8 Householder that sold for $2.11! <br /><br />DJ

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>so there's something more to these plastic slabs than simply the "safety blanket" effect? Perhaps people are actually buying PSA labels? <br /><br />...a perfectly good "Trout" gone bad.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Scott, <br /><br />When you are trying to put together a 'cherry' set from the 1980's, hell yeah it's all about the slab! 792 cards in a set...multiply that with PSA grading fees for each card...then recognize that some schmo is disappointed with their PSA8 Britt Burns and PSA9 Ron Hassey and you have to question the sanity of those gathering 'the slabs' in a world where you can buy a box for less than $200 and create a nice little NM-MT (some 10's) set worth about $175. No worries about trimming or re-backing, just try and locate the baseball card dealer at the show who still brings commons! He may be as hard to find as the Yetti!<br /><br />DJ

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Yeti's are easy find, but you are right, yetti's are really tough :-p<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>quan</b><p>if you do your homework and know what to look for, buying raw can save you a bundle just from the decreased competition. clear scans, ask for detailed physical description of cards. from my experience you save at least 40-50%, the 2 cards below were bought raw or i would've never been able to get it.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1120971174.JPG">

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Adam J. Moraine</b><p>DJ,<br /><br />Thanks for the Steve Trout bio. info. I have not even heard of the guy. I ALL means I am dead serious, I did not now who Steve F!@#$% Trout was. <br /><br />Best Regards,<br /><br />Adam J. Moraine

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Son of Dizzy Trout

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p>Seriously, if you followed baseball in 1980, you should know who Steve Trout is. But my question is, who cares if somebody pays $20 for his card? Why is there this constant harping about what others choose to spend their money on? Isn't it just a little silly that any of us spends our hard earned money on pieces of cardboard? I'm glad those collectors are chasing things I don't collect. It's already hard enough to compete for the cards I do want. <br /><br />Also, why is that collector any less foolish than someone paying hundreds of dollars for an e107 Breisch Williams card of Herm McFarland? I mean, who has heard of this guy? And why would anyone pay such money for a beat-up card of a guy who managed a paltry .266 career average while everyone seemed to be hitting .300 or better? Maybe it was his .191 BA as a rookie. C'mon and get off of the condescending, high-horse.<br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Quan, I'm curious about those two raw cards you had slabbed: what condition were they advertised as when you purchased them?<br /><br />And furthermore, any self-respecting baseball fan recalls Steve Trout as one of the many guys in the 80s that, in the words of George Steinbrenner, 'spit the bit' while having a disastrous short-lived term as a Yankee pitcher.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>David,<br /><br />C'mon, you can't compare an e107 Breisch Williams card of Herm McFarland and a 1980 Topps card of Steve Trout? <br /><br />In one instance you have a 'very rare' card that you may only see 4-5 in a lifetime (if that...and I've never seen one yet) and in another case, there are perhaps millions of these 1980 Topps cards out there.<br /><br />The difference is that when people attempt to put together a 'perfect' (10's) set from only twenty years ago, what they are doing is obviously purchasing the slab. <br /><br />If slab's and population reports didn't exist, they would be just as happy purchasing a box for $200 Or buying a nice set from a dealer for $150 or so. <br /><br />Hey, I don't care what people spend their money on but this is a Board and we have to talk about something so let's pick on those who purchase the 'slabs'. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />DJ<br /><br /><br /><br />

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>LOL; that's good <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Let's also hear it for the much maligned sets of 1974-80. They are a challenge to assemble in well-centered top shape, have lots of great players, and are not too expensive until the slabheads start on them.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Adam J. Moraine</b><p>David,<br /><br />There is NO WAY I could have followed baseball in 1980. I was born November 3, 1980.<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />Adam J. Moraine

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I guess my entire personal collection has been altered. All complete sets Goudey, Bowman, Topps, Playball, many T and R sets, all altered, as they are all RAW and will stay that way.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>mark bowers</b><p>Thanks Dan. There must be two of us and I've been stashing stuff away since 1947 ! Not one slab in this house. Wonder who snuck in and spent weeks trimming without being seen ?

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet</b><p>I'm getting discouraged just buying cards. It seems 10% of the time I'm getting crap or a run around.<br /><br />I've just about confined myself to dealings only with sellers I've had positive experiences.<br /><br />I enjoy scanning new listings on Ebay, and finding that "rare jewel" rarely offered, only to be disappointed because its offered by a seller I don't know.<br />I should avoid the temptation and scan only credible sellers listings.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Here's a reason to stop buying raw cards on ebay: I just sent in to PSA 7 vintage cards to be graded; all were bought on ebay in listings describing the cards as "Near Mint" and they all looked great in the scans. My grades: 5, 5, 5, 3, 7, 7, 7. Enough said.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>actually I am shocked the other way. it is shocking you had 3 of the cards come back as PSA 7. You should be happy, as you were lucky to get almost half of them back the way it was described.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>3 out of 7 at NM is not exactly a ringing endorsement for the overall honesty of ebay sellers, especially when there is a VG 3 in the bunch. This is why you can't buy expensive raw cards on ebay. You need to adjust your bidding at least 2 grades lower (if you're lucky) when going after these cards due to the rampant dishonesty that exists on ebay.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>your experience has been much much better than mine.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>When you received the raw cards did you feel that they were near mint? Or did you not feel competent to express an opinion and looked to PSA to do it for you? I'm not denigrating you if the latter; I am merely trying to understand your post. I've gotten lots of raw cards described as near mint that were 5's at best, but I knew it the instant I looked at the cards. I like to have my cards slabbed for the protection and look of it but I don't need them to tell me what the card grade is (except on rare occasions when I want a third party opinion because I can't really decide).

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>Based on his ebay experience, and his resulting disappointment, it sounds like he should definitely stop buying raw cards. If he buys only slabbed cards in the future, he will always know exactly what condition his cards are in according to a grading company.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I am with Adam, does Jeff need a young kid who doesn't know what a vintage card is to tell him the grade of it? Were they NM to you Jeff or 1 VG, 3 EX and 3 NM?

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Of course I could tell that most of the cards were not near mint once I received them; I sent them in to be graded just to sell them easier on ebay. I wouldn't just turn around and re-sell them as near mint when they clearly weren't. My point is simply this: if you want to spend a few dollars on raw cards your potential loss when you realize that the cards were wildly over graded by the ebay seller will be small. If you care to spend big dollars on raw cards that are described as near mint there is a high likelihood you'll get screwed. Every card I had purchased from that lot looked perfect in the scans. I think the majority of the buyers of raw vintage cards on this forum do not purchase high condition cards. When you're buying a card described as VG there is a great chance it will be VG upon receipt. When you buy a card described as NM it almost never is....(and of course, this gripe does not reflect issues of trimming).

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>I've had it go both ways - purchased an ungraded NM t206 Joss portrait on ebay and took a bath when SGC slabbed it as EX+. I've also purchased cards slabbed as NM that had undisclosed paper loss/scratches on the back. <br /><br />And most of us have purchased ungraded vintage cards on ebay that ended up being spectacular bargains - ask Jay about his Mint t206 Keeler.<br /><br />It really depends on what you feel comfortable with and how much research you want to do before making the deal. I was serious when I suggested that, based on your post, you personally should only buy high-grade cards in slabs. Reduce stress whenever possible.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Does anyone buy cards to collect the cards any more? Or is this strictly an investment. Who cares what it slabs from some idiot that doesn't know vintage cards. If you checked the number off of your want list, then you have made a good purchase. If you paid the insane graded NM price for a raw card and then you do not get the grade, then I can see your point Jeff. No one likes to throw money away. If you purchased them at a low price hoping to slab them as NM and make a killing, then I do not feel for you. When I buy a card as EX raw and it has a slight crease, I will still be happy with it because I won't pay the ridiculous slabbed prices for cards. Dan.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I almost always make it a practice to ask a seller of a raw card for a larger scan F and B. This will give you a better idea of the condition of the card. If the seller refuses, that should give you an idea that the card isnt as nice as described.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, I've never bought a card in my life with the intention of selling it. All of my sales are cards that have been upgraded. That being said, I'm not in the practice of throwing money down a rat hole. Eventually, either myself or my kids (or their kids) will sell the cards. And why should they get ripped off?

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>that I could be just a collector. Given the acquisition costs, however, I feel it necessary to consider "value" beyond the value to me. <br /><br />Does this mean that the "real" collectors are the folks who are, gasp, collecting modern cards, because those cards aren't ever going to be worth anything and are bought simply because they like card collecting?

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>Will we (or our kids and/or grandkids) have trouble selling our collections if all the cards (even if high grade) are raw ?

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>you will be leaving money on the table so long as someone is willing to pay a premium for a slabbed card.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Agreed, as long as there are IDIOTS out there paying $4K for a T205 graded 8 or 9, then Adam is correct. It is very sad that the hobby is no longer a hobby but all people care about is what number is assigned to a card and that several of the people assigning the numbers have no clue about the issue, very sad indeed!

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, I think you're mostly right. It really is sickening that a great card in PSA 8 is worth x while one in PSA 9 is worth 5x; after all, there's like virtually no discernable difference. And think of all the money that is wasted on picking up a PSA 8 common card that just happens to have a low population in the pop report. However, at least for me, I don't mind paying premiums for expensive vintage cards in high grades to ensure (for the most part, I know) that the card being bought hasn't been trimmed by some greedy nut. Nothing is worse than getting an expensive card sent by an ebay seller and looking at the edges (something you can't tell from a scan) and realizing that the card is trimmed....

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I wouldnt assume that any high grade psa card isnt trimmed just b/c its been graded. As many people on this board are aware, I once owned a very nice psa 3 e95 plank that was later rejected by another grading company as being trimmed.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1121301624.JPG">

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>there are plenty of trimmed cards in slabs....but they are in slabs so they must not be trimmed.sometimes it depends on who sent them in.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>I hear alot of nonsense like "people only buy the slab" and all that, but that is not completely true. Yes, the number on the slab has something to do with it, but the card still matters.<br /><br />Example: A card I recently sold. A 1933 Goudey Heinie Manush PSA 8. SMR is $1250. PSA 8 cards of 1933 Goudey have been going for higher than SMR for the most part. I sold mine for $660. Why? Because it was a "low-end" PSA 8. <br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5214310149&category=86 843&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5214310149&category=86 843&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1</a><br /><br />If people only bought the slab, I want to know where the rest of my $600 is? Obviously a lot of people still care about the card itself - to an extent.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>You guys are 100% correct and this is the most infuriating part of collecting. T206, Freshest Man On Earth:<br /><br />A PSA7 of Arlie Lathan will sell for $200-250.<br />A PSA8 of Arlie Latham will sell for about $700-800. <br />A PSA9 of Arlie Latham will sell for $1,400-1,500. <br /><br />If all you want is a nice example, raw (and untrimmed) and non-graded and you have to dig through the grading BS to get an example that you know if you crack open and resend (or send to another Grading card company), the card's value could fluctuate several hundred dollars. <br /><br />Ay Caramba! Nobody is buying CD's because people are downloading their music...Nobody is watching commercials because of the Digital Video Recorders...Nobody is going to the movies because they come out on DVD a few months later...Everything has changed over the last five years, why not this beloved hobby!<br /><br />DJ<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>cmoking:<br /><br />When I say 'People only buy the slab', I feel that is true when people are trying to put together sets that really don't desire a slab.<br /><br />Take 1980. Why would you want to purchase a complete PSA10 set of that?<br /><br />People are paying $20-30 for commons that are 10's. You multiply that by 792 and you have what...$16-19,000 (not counting the stars...with stars...probably $25-27,000) for a set that books at $150-200? How much do you really have to love that set to invest that kind of money in something that will really never capture a return of any kind on that investment?<br /><br />I don't think it's a slabbed purchase when dealing with PSA 1-8's (or maybe PSA 1-7's) but when you pay 6 times an '8' for a card that was graded in favor of the owner and should be an '8' but it's graded a '9', that's when prices spike up. You've all seen 9's that should be 8's and 8's that should be 9'. <br /><br />DJ

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Dan (McKee) your the Man.....your repeated posts on this thread<br />says it all. Almost all, here is a few more comments:<br /><br /> 1) The liberal use of the term "Evidence of Trimmed" by some of<br />Grading Co. turned me off long time ago. Because in many cases,<br />due to the variability in card sizes (1933 Goudeys and 1941 Play<br />Balls come to mind), some cards will never pass muster. Most graders<br />give no consideration to card manufaturer's tolerances.<br /><br />A converse example of this was at the Philly Show several years ago. <br />A collector opened up a pack of cards and brought them over to PSA.<br />PSA rejected 8 of these cards because in their opinion they were<br /> "over-sized". It's crazy out there in the "Grading world"; you really cannot win.<br /> <br /><br />2) This "paranoia" over altered, or trimmed cards can simply be minimized<br /> by attending the major BB card shows where most of the Grading<br />Services are on premise. Buying RAW cards only from well known reputable<br />dealers and for just $5. GAI (for example) will pre-grade the RAW card.<br /><br />At the Philly Show if a customer questions a given card of mine<br />that he is interested, I allow him to get it pre-graded and then<br />when he returns to my table we complete the transaction.<br />And,if the customer decides not to buy the card, I refund the $5<br />he spent to pre-grade it.<br /><br />

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>I suspect that in many cases "evidence of trimming" means "I don't know what I'm doing, but it measures short".

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Anyone want to comment on the PSA graded HARRIS collection of T206 cards? Is it at all possible that maybe, just maybe there were one or two "modified" cards in the grouping? <br /><br />Ok, PSA is not PRO, but that doesn't mean that they are immune to these mistakes, nor are the other grading services.<br /><br />Not only should you be concerned with raw cards, you might also consider being concerned with graded material. <br /><br />

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I think the old adage "a fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place" applies to people who chase $0.25 commons in 10 slabs. Let them piss away their money having the best Ron Hassey cards; keeps them out of our prewar stuff. <br /><br />Edited to say:<br /><br />In no way do I mean any disrespect to Ron Hassey, who may be a very fine gentleman.

Getting Discouraged with raw cards
 

Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Scott Forrest<br /><br />Your point is probably more accurate than you think.<br /><br />Take my personal experience at a show 4 years ago. I submitted to PSA what I thought<br />was a really sharp 1949 Bowman Stan Musial that was part of my original collection.<br />PSA rejected this card due to "evidence of trimming".<br /><br />Since I knew this card was never tampered with I tried to reason with PSA.<br />A heated argument ensued with a couple of people at PSA. So, I took<br />this same card over to SGC. And, SGC graded the card with an 88 grade.<br /><br />Grading cards has become an ARBITRARY ART.<br />