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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>As long as we are airing subjects like this.<br /><br />Player. OK, it's heresy, but MICKEY MANTLE. How does he, playing for some of the greatest teams ever most of his career and batting cleanup, only have FOUR seasons of 100 plus RBIs. That's the same as Minnie Minoso that renowned slugger and fewer than many names who will be a footnote in history. Mays played about the same number of years if you take away the ones he lost to the Army and he was way ahead of Mickey in HRs. Now granted he had fabulous post seasons, and I am certainly not suggesting he was not a great great player, but I am saying given his icon status he is OVERRATED. I would put him on my third team outfield maybe at best.<br /><br />Pitcher. Nolan Ryan. I don't think I even need to make my case.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>they pitched around mantle with men on base.NO TEAM let mantle beat them. don't lets stats sway you.mantle was one of the best players ever.he was a switch hitter, he was faster than mays,more powerful than mays,got on base more than mays,and was mays peer as a fielder. also mantles teams WON because of him. he led the league in runs scored all thru the 1950's and even tho his rbi's were not high,he was top 5 every year.it was a different era. any one who says mantle was over-rated just never saw him play. check out his appearences on the leader board. hall of fame moniter he is # 15 all time. <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mantlmi01.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mantlmi01.shtml</a>

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Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>Wasn't this topic locked?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>This was locked but it wasn't fair to Peter. I just want to let it be known that off topic stuff shouldn't be as frequent as it's been lately. As for most overrated player I think it's any of the cry baby steroid injesting home run hitters of recent.....regards

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Im probably the last person you'd expect to defend a Yankees player but saying Mantle only drove in 100 runs 4 times means he was overrated is a ridiculous statement.The reason for that is simple,he drove in 92 runs or more 9 times in his career.Those 5 seasons he finished between 92-99 were all seasons with the 154 game schedule so right there he's losing 8 games as compared to todays players.Four of the seasons he walked over 100 times and the one season he didnt he only played 121 games and had 92 rbi's and 79 walks.Four of the seasons the Yankees ran away with the division so he wasnt in there all the time near th end of the year,the one year they didnt win by alot,he had 99 rbi's and 113 walks in 147 games<br /><br />I wouldnt have him higher than 4th all-time outfield either.Thats because theres people named Ruth,Mays,Williams on my first teams and Bonds,Cobb,Musial on my 2nd and Aaron/Speaker/Dimaggio on my 3rd team.Its not because he wasnt a great player.<br /><br />My most overrated player has to be Reggie Jackson who hit for a low average,struck out more times than anyone by a large margin when he retired,and he wasnt a good fielder.<br /><br />Hes followed closely by Mark McGwire(steroid issues aside) who had more bad years than good years.High strikeouts,low average,average fielder until the end of his career when he was below average(he was a failed 3rdbaseman),he was slow before he had foot problems,then became the ultimate base clog.He had a high home run per at-bat ratio and that was his hall of fame ticket.I never understood how he could be a definite no question first time ballot hall of famer and Fred McGriff wont get enough support to make it.Theres a huge difference in a 1st time ballot HOFer and a guy who doesnt make it,but i dont see a difference between McGriff and McGwire that warrants that.McGwire was great for a spurt and all McGriff did was put up 15 straight seasons where he had 81 or more rbi's(8 100 rbi seasons) and his lowest total(81) came when he was with a very weak Devil Rays team<br /><br />Most overrated pitcher is Koufax.Im not getting into why,ive discussed it way too many times and i wont anymore.Its no fun to get into the same discussion constantly when my views havent changed.Thats just my opinion

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Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Which one of these doesn't belong:<br /><br />Cal Ripken Jr.<br />Tony Gwynn<br />Mark McGwire<br /><br /><br />The Hall of Fame is supposed to be for the best of the best. I'm a little concerned at some of the players that have squeeked in there. Compared to other professional sports, baseball seems to be a bit more lenient. Think of all the players with so-so or even sad stats who made it in. I don't believe McGwire should go but, then again, I don't believe Tinker or Lloyd Waner should be in either.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>No brainer in the pitching department, Koufax. As someone else mentioned, that debate has been reharshed enough, no need for anyone to some to his defense. Those of us that think is overrated have pretty much made up our minds, as have those that think he was the greatest pitcher since the curve ball was invented. This doesn't mean that he doesn't belong in the HOF. It jsut means that he is incredicly overrated.<br /><br />Hitting, I too would go with Big Mac. Strictly a one trick pony and that one trick is well represented already in the HOF. And at least Killebrew was capable of a few other positions in his career before finally ending up at 1B. Besides, can you seriously consider someone for the HOF that spent a season struggling to stay above the Mendoza line?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>Overrated: Don Sutton, Phil Niekro, Bert Blyleven, Don Drysdale, Tony Oliva.<br /><br />Underrated: Ron Guidry, Don Mattingly<br /><br />If a "Hall of Above Average Players" was created, Koufax certainly wouldn't be included because he would be too good, but you could induct on first ballots all of the players I listed above.<br /><br />But I think this was originally meant to be another Nolan Ryan bashing thread - Peter is getting ripped off!

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>I don't think we are saying inconsistent things about Mantle. In my original post I acknowledged he was a very great player. I just think that there is a disparity between his status as THE hobby icon (his cards sell for multiples of equivalent Mays cards for example, he is THE card to own in every set from 51-69, he has a mythical quality that greater players do not, and so forth ad nauseum) and his place in baseball history which is probably in the third or fourth team all time outfield. I would personally take Mays, Ruth, Cobb, Williams, Musial, DiMaggio, and Bonds ahead of him, and possibly Speaker and Jackson (Shoeless, that is) too. A great player can be overrated too. That was my only point. EDITED TO ADD You guys who think Koufax is overrated are in disagreement with no less an authority than Casey Stengel who called him the best pitcher he had ever seen.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I bet you Casey would have never said that about him in the 50s. That pretty much covers half of Koufax's career.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>How anyone can claim that Koufax is the "most overrated" pitcher is beyond me. His last four years of his career he averaged about 25 wins a season and an ERA well under 2. That, combined with 3 Cy Youngs (when only one was awarded for both leagues) and two back to back shutouts in the World Series (on two days rest) ends this discussion. Oh, and he also averaged about 300 innings per year during that period. Finally, in 57 World Series innings, he managed a 0.95 ERA. And let's not forget the 4 no hitters....<br /><br />All the while he had major arm problems and pitched in tremendous pain. The only basis to claim he is overrated is that the great majority of his brilliant carerr was crammed into these four years. If the four years were just really good and not, perhaps, the greatest four years a modern era pitcher has ever had in a row, then I might tend to agree with the sentiment of the naysayers here. Talk to me about a guy like Don Sutton, a HOF player who pitched for 23 seasons, over 5000 innings, and had one 20 win season. <br />Finally, we can all agree that we're couch potatoes. However, when players from Koufax's era were asked who the most dominating pitcher that they had ever seen was, they unanimously say it was Sandy.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>There are many who think the HOF should be based a player's ability to maintain at least an above average performance for a really long time period. <br /><br />To put this in "vintage card" perspective, compare prices on a Niekro rookie to that of a Koufax rookie - gives you a better idea of what "Fame" means.

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Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>Jerry Koosman only had slightly more wins and K's than Sandy Koufax, but have you seen the prices on his rookie card?!

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Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> that's pretty hilarious.<br /><br />Yeah, and what's up with the high prices for the Fritz Ackley and Ken McMullen rookies?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>And imagine how much Kooz's rookie card would be worth if he hadn't been paired with such an overrated pitcher....

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Koufax wouldn't be considered such an overrated pitcher if he actualy had a winning record his first 7 years in the league. It always amazes me how Koufax fans just dismiss his first 6 years, which are mediocre, at best. No longevity and no consistancy other than he was consistanly bad for 6 years and dominating for another 6. Thus, why many think he is overrated. <br /><br />there is no arguing that he was a dominant pitcher in his prime, but show me another that sucked so badly at teh begining of his career and is still regarded as a great pitcher. I looked at a bunch of lefty HOFers and none went more than 3 years before showing their greatness and lefties are notorious sor careers that start slow.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, I think you're not appreciating what Koufax went through with Walt Alston as his manager in the early years. Alston pitched him very inconsistently, pushing him in and out of the rotation for no good reason. This was a recipe for disaster for a pitcher like Koufax who was trying to get into some kind of consistent groove. This is not just my opinion; most baseball historians support this theory as the reason for Koufax's difficult start to his career. Once he began to pitch consistently, he took off.<br /><br />Also, it's not like Koufax's arguably slow start was such an aberration: Bob Gibson took many starts and innings pitched before he had a good season too. Maybe not as many as Sandy, but certainly within that range. And consider the fact that Koufax pitched a bit more than half the innings that Gibson did yet had 3 seasons with an ERA under 2 compared to 1 season for Gibson.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/tgk.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/Kouph.jpg"> WANNA FIGHT?

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Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p><a href="http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeoverrated.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/alltimeoverrated.html</a><br /><br />Phil Rizzutto and Nolan Ryan according to "The List". Pretty good choices if you ask me.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>And don't forget Koufax was only 30 when he retired. If he hadn't had such severe injuries, can you even imagine?

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>but I really don't believe that many people consider Ryan "the greatest (hurler) in baseball history." That's an absurd statement.

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Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Randy Johnson sucked pretty bad for his first 4 or 5 years.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>In my opinion, big time hitters who were bad fielders are often overrated. Many Hall of Fame voters beleive that a player's friendliness to the press is a more important quality than fielding talent when determing who is a Hall of Famer.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Koufax has Alston to thank for pushing him into the majors because without those first 5 years where he wasnt ready he wouldnt have enough seasons to even qualify for hall of fame induction.<br /><br />Jeff, we've(you and I personally) discussed this before in this forum about Koufax,nothing has changed on my part,nothing will,ive known about Sandy Koufax since before i went to the hall of fame when i was 6.My opinion on him was formed due to research over a long time and has been completed for years.You want to know anything from me go to the search function in the forum because this discussion has happened too many times to rehash it again

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Posted By: <b>Glenn</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />Perhaps you're surrounding yourself with too educated a crowd. Ask a random sample of ESPN viewers or co-workers (which I've done) or in-laws (which I've also done) who was the greatest pitcher ever, and I'd bet you dollars to donuts the most common response you get is Nolan Ryan. Half of them don't even recognize the name Walter Johnson.

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Posted By: <b>Brian H (misunderestimated)</b><p>I have to go with Nolan Ryan -- yes he belongs in the HOF ... but he really isn't one of the greatest Pitchers ever or even of my lifetime... If you had to pick one player to pitch one game for you to win from all of the starting Pitchers of the past 30 years Ryan doesn't even enter into the conversation for me.. Let's see we've got Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Jim Palmer, Roger Clemens, Gre Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson (once he got his game together)...

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>I think they get "favorite" confused with "greatest". Out of all the sporting event moments I have looked forward to, going behind home plate to watch a Nolan Ryan fastball come straight at me was easily the best - what a rush. And there was always the possibility of seeing a no-hitter. It was pure excitement to see the guy pitch.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'd agree with Scott on that. If I was told that I could only see one more game in person and had 2 games to choose from, one featuring Ryan and one feturing Clemens, I'm going to the Ryan game. Clemens is easily the greatest pitcher of our era, but for pure excitment, you can't touch Ryan.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>John, I don't think Koufax would thank Alston for "pushing him into the majors." More likely, he'd curse him for not letting him pitch consistently when it was clear he had major league stuff.<br /><br />I've never heard any major leaguer, manager or player claim that Nolan Ryan was the greatest pitcher they had ever seen -- yet I've heard a bunch say that about Koufax. And the word "overrated" never comes out of their mouths when discussing Koufax. Are you suggesting that you're in a better position to know greatness than they are?

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>The only thing im suggesting Jeff is you dont ask me to explain it again for the 50th time.Use the search function and argue with the results all you want,me from the past wont care.<br /><br />Koufax also pitched 12 seasons starting at 19,if he waited till 22 or 23 when he was major league caliber to make his debut then he wouldnt be a hall of famer because you need 10 years playing time.Thats all i meant by that.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I get it -- so if he had only pitched nine years and not the ten required to be HOF eligibile --thereby removing his first, few average years from his record -- that would make him less of a great pitcher? That makes sense. According to that logic, had that been the case, Koufax's worth as a pitcher would be about equal to Fred McGriff's as a hitter.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>You dont get it,if he pitched 9 years he isnt eligible for the hall of fame and then he doesnt get in SO hes lucky he pitched before hes ready otherwise he wouldnt be a hall of famer.Not too many guys pitch in the majors before theyre 22.Do you understand that? Is that too complicated? Dont read into everything so much<br /><br />I havent discussed why i think hes overrated except to say you and I have discussed this before on this board and nothings changed on my part.Why have the same discussion if theres nothing new to add when we have a perfectly good search function? I just used it,i found our conversation,we laughed,we cried,we had a good time....lets not ruin that

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>John, you keep saying you don't want to discuss this issue further and yet you simply cannot keep your fingers off the keyboard. I'm guessing you have some other impulse issues when it comes to your hands, so I suppose we can all be comforted with the fact that your hands are on the keyboard and not someplace else.<br /><br />As for what you don't seem to get, the issue is which pitcher is the "most overrated." That Koufax is or is not a Hall of Famer is not the only thing that matters here. Had he pitched only 9 years, and not made the HOF, that would not diminish his greatness.<br /><br />Again, when you're not insulting me, perhaps you can answer the one question that you have conveniently ignored: if the great majority of the players and managers, coaches, etc. of Koufax's era believe that he was the greatest pitcher of his time, why do you feel that you are better situated to disagree? Are you actually a former player or just a bigmouth behind a computer? Now, I know you don't want to discuss this again, so I'm sure your response will only be added to this thread in about...ten seconds.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>No one is arguing that at his peak, Koufax wasn't dominant. But in order to be a truly great player, you need to be great for the vast majority of career, not half of it.<br /><br />Was he rushed to the majors? Most likely. Was he misused by Alston. Maybe. If he doesn't get rushed to the majors, he probably has a great 8 year career and not make the HOF. Not making the HOF pretty much puts an end to and discussion about greatness. We would just be wondering how great he could have been if he had stayed healthy. We still do that with him, but we will never know.<br /><br />Part of greatness is longevity. That is why when you look at the short list of truly great players they all have pretty much one thing in common, a career that lasted 20 or more years in which they were great for the vast majority of the time.<br /><br />Would we hold Cobb, Wagner, Johnson, et al in the same regard if their careers were only 12 years long instead of 20 plus? <br /><br />The big thing is that Koufax has going for him is that people are still alive to remember him pitching. greatness tends to fade when there is no one around that actually remembers the person playing and all there is left is the record book. We have testimonials galore to the greatness of various 19c and Deadball players that are not in the HOF, yet they get no respect outside of SABR and die hard fans. We won't be alive to see if this will happen to Koufax.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, it really depends on what you consider 'greatness' to be. I'm in the camp that holds that a lot of 'good' seasons strung together does not necessarily equate to greatness, i.e., Don Sutton. He was a really good pitcher but hardly 'great' at almost any given point in his career. Compare to Koufax who as brilliant as any pitcher has ever been for a four year period. Absolutely brilliant, courageous, and accomplished. No doubt that other pitchers that were almost as good as him over a four or five year period might have had better careers due to more years pitched; however, that does not take away from Koufax's singular greatness over not one season, not two, but really over like 5 years. He also won the Triple Crown of pitching. So, while you can criticize him for not putting up the numbers that some others have done, you cannot criticize his singular greatness over this period which is trumpeted by his peers. When people are asked "who is the greatest pitcher of all time?" -- and they mention Koufax -- they're not giving that answer based on all-time career stats on a piece of paper. They're saying Koufax because he was the greatest pitcher they ever saw in their lifetimes.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Show me where I've dismissed what Koufax did during his 5 years of greatness? I even admitted to it my last post. You obviously didn't read my post. Go back and reread it. And Forrest wonders why I repeat myself so much. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br />For you, greatness seems to include 7 years of being a .500 pitcher (he was one game over .500 after 7 years). You can have it. To me, and many others, you can't be great if you can't win half your games for a 6 year stretch. It took Johnson 4 years before he broke .500. At least with him you know he pitched for crappy teams. Meanwhile, he won the triple crown 3 times and won the MVP award twice. What's Koufax's excuse? The Dodgers were pretty good from 1955-60. I seem to remember a few WS appearances and a title in there. Using your criteria for greatness can we include Ken Williams and Benny Kauff as some of the greatest hitters ever? I know I wouldn't and love both of those players.<br /><br />There is a huge difference between between peak value greatness and career greatness. Johnson, Matty, Alexander, Grove, etc have both. Koufax has one. Thus, he doesn't belong in a discussion of the truly greats.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Can't remember who pointed this out first. MAy have been Forrest, but take a look at Gooden's career. You essentially have Koufax in reverse. Are you going to tell me Gooden is one of the all-time greatest pitcher too?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>for those first few years gooden was greatone of the best ever,94mph fast ball,big leg buckling curve,but arm trouble and maybe too much too soon...what could of been? and a great nickname too!

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>Someone said, in considering whether a player should be in the HOF, you should ask the question "Was he the greatest in the game AT ANY TIME during his career?" (I assume he didn't mean for one game.)<br /><br />I keep thinking I'm perfectly happy saying he belongs in the Hall, but isn't one of the greatest...but then I'm not<br />The years during which he was great, he was SO great. Bob has no interest in the Dodgers, and he's even sorta anti-Semetic (having been married to me since '66), but he goes NUTS trying to describe how great Koufax was...<br />"Upon Never Having Seen Koufax Pitch" R.B. Kitaj, 1967<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/BUNHSKP001.jpg">

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>"a look at Gooden's career. You essentially have Koufax in reverse"<br /><br />I took a look at Gooden vs. Koufax at www.baseball-reference.com. This site allows you to look a appearences by a player in leader boards amoung their contemporaries. I'm not seeing that Gooden's beginning career say from 84-88 is anywhere near as dominant as Koufax's end, say from from 61-66.<br /><br />Gooden led the league in wins, and era once, K's twice. Won 1 NL Cy Young award.<br /><br />Koufax led the league in era 5 times, wins 3 times, K's 4 times. 3 ML Cy Young awards. 1 MVP.<br /><br />I understand Koufax did not have the career numbers of a Johnson and perhaps he is a little over rated by people who assume that without injury he would of continued at his 61-66 pace forever. However his greatness over a six year period has been approached by very few.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Sorry Jeff i was at work.Your response is very immature and doesnt help your side of the story,but i will answer the one part.<br /><br />When i said he wouldnt have made the hall of fame if he played 9 years thats all i meant by that.I didnt mean if he didnt make the hall of fame he wouldnt have been a great pitcher.I didnt say he wasnt a great pitcher.I only,solely,singularly,meant if he only pitched 9 years he wouldnt have made the hall of fame because theres a minimum requirement. Lets review:<br />9 years or less-not eligible for hall of fame<br />10 or more-eligible<br /><br />Thats all i meant by that,it had nothing to do with any stats he put up,nothing to do with any records he held,it had nothing to do with anything except explaining the fact if he played 9 years or less he wouldnt have made the hall of fame.If you cant understand that now then i cant help you.<br /><br />I did also give my side of why i think hes overrated.Its in the search feature,enter Koufax,enter my vintage handle(z28jd) enter overrated,enter whatever you want that you think will bring up an old discussion about this.Heres another point,if you ask me questions,ill answer the post.It doesnt mean anything other than the fact i check this site often.If you want to continue an immature conversation go right ahead.If you want my answers to your repeated questions despite me constantly emphasizing im not going to type it again use the search function,if you want to ignore this post then good for you,i dont care.<br /><br />For some reason you like having deja vu all over again with me.We've had the Koufax discussion twice before on this board do we really need a third,its obvious if you dont remember the first 2 im just wasting my time telling you especially if my initial post said (paraphrasing)dont ask about it.<br /><br />I hope i explained this well enough and you can move on about it because no one wants to read the same thing over and over again<br /><br />Just to add a note in case you want to continue this for some reason,I wont be home from 11am-10pm(estimated) on July 4th,i work till 8 then im going to go see fireworks afterwards so dont expect any answers from me between those hours.

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Posted By: <b>calvindog</b><p>John, I'm sorry you think that my post was "immature." My advice in the future so that you won't be offended again: don't insult me first unless you don't mind getting your ass kicked out here again.<br /><br />As for deja vu, I'll try again to ask a question that you still haven't answered: take a step away from your job on July 4th weekend and tell me how is that the great majority of Koufax's peers claim that he was the best pitcher they ever saw yet you think he's overrated. Do you think that you're better situated to discern greatness than they are? Why is it that your cold dissection of a player's stats counts more than professionals' opinions? Can you at least admit that in any discussion of greatness a player's peers should have some say?

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Sandy Koufax is the greatest pitcher ever.If there was one game only in baseball history left and i was the manager for that game and i could pick any pitcher it would be Sandy Koufax. If i was a girl and i could pick anyone to father my kids it would be Sandy Koufax so i could name him Sandy Koufax Jr and people would come up to him and say your father was the greatest pitcher ever,heres $5 and he would be the happiest kid ever!<br /><br />If i was ever a comedian id start everyone one of my jokes with the following line "So this moron tells me Sandy Koufax is overrated...."<br /><br />See this whole time i thought we were talking about Randy Slovacs(I have bad hearing) who was on my t-ball team.His father was the coach and he got picked for the all-star team eventho i was much better and ive been harboring a deep resentment towards him since i was 6.<br /><br />7th game of the world series,no doubt in my mind,in anyones mind,i would have Sandy Koufax out there,even today at his advanced age,because hes the greatest and you and I Jeff, can watch from the stands,and ill buy you a beer because i feel bad about this whole thing.What do you like on your hot dog? oh no, put that wallet away, its on me silly! I dont want you to miss one pitch of the game.<br /><br />If anyone questions Sandy Koufax again youve got Jeff and I to mess with! Question Randy Slovacs all you want tho.You out there Randy,bring it on!

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Posted By: <b>Charlie</b><p>Who's Sandy Koufax?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>John, I knew you'd see it my way eventually. I think you're just working too hard on a holiday weekend. Glad you got some rest to clear your mind.

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Oh thats it Charlie,we are about to trade punches like baseball cards!<br /><br />God Bless Sandy Koufax<br />Man that i love<br />Stand beside him<br />and admire him<br />"threw" the night<br />he was sent from above<br />from the NL,to the Yankees<br />to the Giants,white with rage!!!<br />god bless Sandy Koufax,<br />he wont allow home runs<br /><br />Sorry about my voice cracking near the end,but i get emotional everytime i put Sandy Koufax's name into God Bless America

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Posted By: <b>calvindog</b><p>And John, just think how much brain power you're saving not having to answer the question I kept asking!<br /><br />Now isn't it time to get back to work?

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Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>I told you why hes the best ever.Do you know of any player who had their name put into the words of one of our countries most sacred songs? no! I dont think i need to put any stats down for you to realize that Jeff,the historical significance alone of the song should be proof enough.Now ill have no more of you saying hes overrated Jeff.Hes not,theres no way he could be and its just silly flimflarm<br /><br />Im going to work now but if i come home and youre still a doubting Thomas about Sandy Koufax well ill just sit here and type till im blue in the face just so you realize how great of a pitcher he was!<br /><br />Happy July 4th!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>John, you're logic really is brilliant. I'm surprised such brilliance hasn't allowed you to find a job that allows you to take the day off on July 4!

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Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>Tony Oliva the most overrated player?????<br />That's just nuts. If he had played anywhere else but Minnesota he'd be in the Hall. Even with all the injuries he was better than Kirby Puckett, who's in.<br />Scott you need to listen to Jim Palmer, Whitey Ford, and the other great pitchers of the era who almost to a man said that Tony O. was the best hitter in baseball in the 60's. Oliva was fast, had a rifle arm and was to the American League what Clemente was to the National League. Put him on the Yankees and he would have been an easy HOF pick, even with the crippling injuries which shortened his career. I saw you also had Blyleven listed as overrated. I guess you forgot about Carew and Killebrew or you could have dissed the whole Twins team of the 60's.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>There is one HUGE problem with taking the word of peers as to who the greatest ever is. All they have to reference is who they actually faced/saw. Ask a kid today who the greatest pitcher is and you probably get Randy Johnson, Clemens or Pedro and even some votes for Dontrell Willis. Does this also make them among the greatest ever? No! <br /><br />the reason people think Koufax is overrated is because people like you, Jeff, seem to just dismiss the first 6 years of his career as if they never happened. When talking about greatness, you can't. They happened and nothing you do or say will mitigate the fact that Koufax sucked for the first 6 years of career. <br /><br />Jim Rice was the most feared hitting the game in the late 70s and early 80s. More so than Schmidt, Brett and other hitter that are acknowledged as being great. Yet you never hear his name brought in conversations of greatest hitters. You know why? He didn't sustain his greatness for very long. But sustained it for a lot longer than Koufac did. So why isn't Rice mentioned among the greatest hitters ever. As kid growing up, no one wanted to face him the way peole don't want to face Bonds today. <br /><br />So until someone can adequately explain how a pitcher can be sub .500 for more than half their career, still be considered great. I will always consider Koufax overrated.<br /><br />True greatness is long term proposition.<br /><br />Bob, great point about Oliva. I can't believe I forgot about him when he was my favorite player as a kid.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, I appreciate the Rice comparison as I grew up a baseball fan in the 70s. However, Rice, while a great player of his era, only had 40 HRs or more 1 year in his career. He had some fantastic years but not on the level that Koufax did during his hot period. Rice never led the league in hitting, never won a Triple Crown, etc. Close comparison but not that close in my opinion. That being said, I have a hard time understanding why Billy Williams belongs in the HOF and not Rice.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Jeff, once again, you dodged the crucial question, how does a pitcher that is sub .500 for the first 7 years of his career warrant being considered one of the greatest of all-time?<br /><br />As to your Rice knocks. The comparing of the hitting Triple Crown to the pitching Triple Crown is like comparing apples and oranges. I think between Johnson, Koufax and Matty they had more Triple crowns than all the hitting Triple Crowns combined. Also, knocking Rice for hitting 40+ HRs only once is also an invalid argument since 40 HRs wasn't done that often when he played and winning the HR title with less than 40 was standard. From 1975-88 only 13 of a possible 28 league leaders hit 40 or more HR in a season. 4 of those 13 were in 1986-8 when Rice's skills were already rapidly deteriorating and the juicing of the ball and other things started.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />The first six years of Koufax's career when he was a sub-500 pitcher comprised a total of 689 innings. I think we can agree that being used a bit more than 100 innings a year for a guy who threw 311 or more innings three times in his career suggests something was amiss in how he was handled. That being said: Randy Johnson, before he became Randy Johnson that we know, pitched five years and 816 innings. I'm sure there are other great pitchers with similar starts. Tom Glavine, a borderline HOF pitcher who will certainly make it if he wins 300, pitched 645 innings before he became "Tom Glavine." Before he became a .500 pitcher, he needed to pitch 891 innings. Of course, the Braves sucked during Glavine's rough period but so did his ERA. I'm not suggesting Glavine is even in Koufax's neighborhood, just trying to make a point with a pitcher that is very likely HOF-bound. I think, as I stated previously, our difference lies in what we define "greatness" to be. I think that while greatness can be acheived over time, the truly greatest of all time period that Koufax had just overwhelmes anything else in his career. You'll clearly never get me to say that Koufax's career numbers are "great." But that doesn't stop me from claiming that he is one of the greatest pitchers to ever live.<br /><br />Jeff<br /><br />P.S. And how does Billy Williams make the HOF and not Rice?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Mishandled or not, he should have still been winning games with those great Dodgers teams of the late 50s. <br /><br />No clue on the Billy Williams thing other than Williams was liked by the media and Rice wasn't. Sadly, that has a lot to do with HOF voting. I personally think Rice belongs. He was the most feared hitter in the game for over 5 years, but is penalized for being disliked by the media and not having a long enough career. He was a better hitter and player than Puckett, but Puckett got in becuase of his ability and the fact that he was a media darling and lead the Twins to 2 WS titles.<br /><br />At least don't have to worry about Canseco getting in this way, but we do with McGwire.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>The irony of course is that Rice never cared how he was perceived and Kirby was all about being media-savvy -- and it ends up that he was probably a much worse guy than Rice was.<br /><br />When I think of the 70s, I think of Jim Rice, Steve Garvey, guys like that. It doesn't seem fair to penalize guys like this who were consistently at the very top of their era just because they weren't around during the juiced ball times. To be fair, a HOF player should be judged on how they performed relative to their peers during their playing career. At least with Rice, both he and Williams had lifetime slugging percentages that were about 100 points higher than the average player in the league during their respective eras. Puckett's was .67 higher....

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Jay,<br /> I agree with you about Rice and Puckett, but what about Mattingly? His 84-89 is probably comparable to Koufax's run. Mattingly was routinely voted best player by his peers for several years in a row, but his back kept him from dominating long enough for the HOF. He was my favorite player during the 80's and I miss seeing him play. Be well Brian

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Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>that is one of, if not the, WORST song I ever read (and heard, putting <br />God Bless America"s tune to it!

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Posted By: <b>Bob Donaldson</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />Greatness is greatness. Sometimes it is delayed. Look at the first 5 years of home runs for this player; 0, 4, 3, 2, 11. When he retired he was universally acknowledged as the greatest slugger ever. Guy by the name of Babe Ruth.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Bob, get real. We all know Ruth wasn't playing the OF full time and given the era, the HR totals aren't out of line. At least try to be a bit more creative and realistic in your comparisons. As full time Of, Ruth had sustained greatness. Even as a pitcher he had sustained greatness. This is why he is considered the greatest player ever.<br /><br />Mattingly certainly had a great run. I am truly surprised by the apathy shown towards his HOF candidacy given all the hype he got as a player. I fully expected him to get elected just because he was a Yankee. Glad to see the voters wising up a bit.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>H Murphy</b><p>Don`t chime in on too many posts, but I have to defend my all-time fav. player, Harmon Killebrew. He was never a gold glover, but when he retired he had 573 Hr`s when 400 was an auto HOF #. The total was just the start. A 6 time HR champ, 40+ eight times when 40 ACTUALLY meant somrthing! 100 RBI 9 times and I believe when he retired his HR to AB ratio was second to some guy named Ruth. All done with style and grace matched by too few players over the last 30 years. Overrated, I think not.

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Posted By: <b>Zach</b><p>I have to agree...Killebrew is very underrated. As for pitchers I think Warren Spahn is also very underrated as well.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I grew up watching Killebrew, Carew and Oliva. Killer was a great HR hitter. I'll also give him credit for being able to play more than one position in his career. But he was still essentially a one trick pony, like McGwire. He hit HRs and that's just about all he did. Carew was the opposite, all average and speed, no power. Combine Killer and Carew and you get Tony Oliva. A beautiful blend of power, speed and average.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, the Killer did his damage in an era when HRs were not hit at the rate they were when McGwire hit his. Also, he didn't have the advantage of being a drug-taking freak.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>i don't remember who said it, but if you look at the names on this thread it sure is true. "you got to be awfully good to be considered overrated."

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>It is difficult to convincingly argue that a player who is very good, is actually overrated. Perhaps it is easier to identify a player who is crummy that shouldn't be in MLB at all.<br /><br />One of the most evident players of this caliber is Bill Bergen, .170 lifetime battiung average. How did he get 3000+ at bats in the big leagues? It wasn't his slugging ( .201 SA ).<br /><br />Maybe he is the most overrated.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>If a player is very good according to his stats, but people treat him as if he's excellent, then he is over-rated. Sometimes this happens with players who were especially popular for reasons other than their actual performance.<br /><br />Same for "under-rated" - many times a player quietly does the job and doesn't receive the respect he deserves because he isn't flashy.

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Well Scott, I will try to clearly explain my thinking. But, I may miss because my thinking is not always clearly explainable.<br /><br />Here goes: It is comparitively easier to establish the rating of a player relative to other players, than it is to quantify what others think of him.<br /><br />By this I mean that I can state accurately that Mark McGuire hit homeruns at a rate higher than any other MLB player in history. But I can not accurately determine what conclusions are drawn from this fact by fans, sportscasters, stat-nuts, nor others.<br /><br />However, if I note that Bergen does not hit as well as many pitchers (who earn their keep by means other than hitting); and then determine that Bergen was good in an "other than hitting" capacity; I can then attempt to establish the relative merit of Bergen's non-hitting capabilities and conclude whether they justify being considered for a major league position.<br /><br />I hope that helps<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />I think Mantle is simply a very popular player. I further think that most appraise his performance accurately.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>&lt;&lt;...But I can not accurately determine what conclusions are drawn from this fact by fans, sportscasters, stat-nuts, nor others.&gt;&gt;<br /><br />I'll buy that. It's much easier when you lived through the same era as the player in question. I know that Mantle was almost a god during the '60s when I was growing up, but I also feel that his stats and value to the Yankees seemed to justify his popularity.<br /><br />Another thing to consider is the emphasis that certain generations put on the skills of their ball-players. For instance, if you went back and read interviews and newspapers from the early 1900's you might think that Jimmy Archer was over-rated compared to the stats we view today. But at that time fielding the catcher's position was considered much more important than it is today, and Archer was considered one of (if not the) best catchers of his generation.<br /><br />(edited to add)<br /><br />Bill Bergen must have been able to stop lightning bolts.

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Scott: what I should have said (but didn't) was that in analyzing a player like Bergen both the players actual performance and the minimum acceptable levels of performance (identified as the other Mendoza line players - who hit &gt; .030 points higher) are established, and measureable.<br /><br />Since both are identifyable, if the stats do not indicate that he performs at major league levels, while accumulating &gt; 3000 at bats, then he is overrated by a measurable amount.<br /><br />No other player is overrated by a measureable amount.<br /><br />Based on the reading which I have done on Bergen, he was good, but not a top tier catcher. But then again, his team did not have much of anything. He certainly could not catch lightening bolts.<br /><br />The measureable amount that I contend that Bergen is overrated at is the 0.030 or so, batting average points difference between him and other good field/light hit players.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>"over-rated" and "under-rated" can't be measured using stats as you just tried to do - it's simply not what these two terms mean ("evaluated too low" and "evaluated too high"). <br /><br />You can make such measurements if you want, of course, and I'm sure they have value, but you'll have to define the results using different terms (perhaps "above average" and "below average" would do).

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Posted By: <b>Tim Mayer</b><p>Bonds or Sosa and Schilling <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>To me Scott, if a player is accepted into the major leagues by his team (for an extended period), eventhough his performance is below major league standards; then he is overrated by his team. <br /><br />This is "evaluated too high".<br /><br />And the amount that he is evaluated too high is the difference between the level of his play and the next worst performer.<br /><br />In Bergen's case, that difference is substantial.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>I think you know what the post wss about.