Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p> Slightly off-topic but i know theres both Clemente fans and Leland fans here,and thought it was an interesting read<br /><br /><br /><br />Report: Clemente family upset with memorabilia auction <br /> <br />June 5, 2005<br />NEW YORK (AP) -- Roberto Clemente's family is upset that pieces of the plane he died in are being auctioned off, according to The New York Times. <br /><br />Lelands auction house is selling a light metal piece of the airplane, measuring 19 by 14 inches at its largest point, the paper reported on its Web site Saturday night. That section has a minimum auction price of $1,500. <br /><br />A gray steel propeller, 14 by 79 inches, has a minimum price of $1,000. <br /> <br /> <br />The high bid for the first piece is $1,650 and the high for the second is $1,210. The auction, which includes 28 Clemente-related items, is to end June 24. <br /><br />Clemente died on Dec. 31, 1972, when the DC-7 he was on during a relief mission crashed after takeoff from San Juan, Puerto Rico. The plane was headed to Nicaragua with supplies for earthquake victims. <br /><br />``It's disgusting,'' Roberto Clemente Jr. was quoted as saying. ``It's a shame that something so sacred to my family would go on the market like this. It's ridiculous. It has nothing to do with baseball. He's a human being. He lost his life. There's nothing funny about that.'' <br /><br />The Clemente family will talk about whether they should take legal actions. <br /><br />Joshua Leland Evans, the chairman and founder of the auction house, did not return messages from the paper seeking comment.<br /><br />

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I heard the story on the radio too and I was wondering just how pieces of the plane became available? Where have they been for the last 32 years? That may be the crux of the issue.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>i would think lelands would be above this type of thing.i find it disgraceful and morbid.no one should bid but i'm sure some will. SAD!

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Ty Cobb's skull?<br /><br />Babe Ruth's femur?<br /><br />I will not bid on anything in the Leland's auction if they include wreckage from Clemente's plane.<br /><br />Dan

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>That auction houses, in good conscience, would at least contact the family and get their feelings on the subject before doing this....I know money is money....but humanity is humanity.....Clemente died while doing charity work and was obviously a great human being....it would seem that would weigh in for something....regards<br /><br />edited for spelling

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p>Ted Williams' head?<br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Hollyfields ear?

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I just looked at Leland's website and both pieces have already gotten bids. Some people are morbid.<br />

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Shame on Lelands but, even more so, shame on the goofus who's going to spend $1500+ on a piece of the plane.<br /><br />Michael Jackson's nose?

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Capitalism.....Just GRRRRRRRRRRRREAT!

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Talk about a Group overreacting. Sure it's a tad on the distasteful side but welcome to the 21st Century. <br /><br />We live in a society where anything can be purchased. Last week a dinner fork that Derek Jeter used sold for $107. Neil Armstrong's barber is selling his hair. You can purchase swatches with blood stains from Lincoln's assisination. Thurman Munson's airplane parts have been for sale. Britney Spears' chewing gum that she chucked at a someone is always on sale. What about swatches from the Hindenburg. Or pieces from the Buddy Holly plane. <br /><br />As sick as it is, it's also a part of history...baseball history. <br /><br />DJ<br />

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Capitalism it may be, but Lelands should have at least informed the family and gotten feedback first. It's not like this is a million dollar item...for such a small piece of change wouldn't some sensitivity be in order?

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Overreacting? Hardly. I think it just illustrates how sick and twisted, not to mention money-driven, our society has gotten. The fact that you consider it overreacting leads me to believe that we've become so desensitized that it doesn't appear to be a big deal. Consider your own father dying in a car and some doofus trying to sell the pants he was wearing at the time of the crash.<br /><br />Just my opinon

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Andrew</b><p>Public Outcry:<br /><br />Clemente plane fragment, yes. Kennedy November 22, 1963 items, maybe. Artifacts from Lincoln assissination or other popular pre-1900 figureheads, no.<br><br>“A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.” - English Proverb

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Just my personal view, but I think that dealing in material like this is classless.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Anson,<br /><br />You are probably right. As a person who watches 'pop culture memorabilia real close, I have become used to this to a certain degree. I remember reading about a passerbyer scooping up pieces of glass from Princess Diana's mangled automobile and selling the bits. <br /><br />I can tell you that I'm easily offended but this doesn't bother me much. I'd be bothered if it was Ted Williams' head or if it was bone fragments from Clemente or something of that nature. <br /><br />To me, it's what the piece represents in a historical sense, the end of ONE life (where there others on that plane?) and is it of poor taste? Yes, I'm not interested. So we should wait until all of Clemente's relatives pass away before putting this up for auction as to not offend them?<br /><br />To me, it's a 'sick piece of sports history' that some person will show up in his collection to friends as to say: "Hey Bob, What Is That Hunk Of Plane There?" and Bob will happily tell the story in a proud fashion.<br /><br />The beauty of the human being is the opinion and I seem to be alone on this island. <br /> <br />DJ<br />

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>qualitycards.com</b><p>Don't know whats worse, Lelands offering this to the public or someone actually bidding on it!<br />We have all shown off items from our collections be it autographs, vintage cards or memorabilia. But a piece of a plane that once held Clemente before he died, thats horrible!<br />I guess the adage will apply, there's no such thing as bad publicity. Maybe so, But I won't bid on any of their stuff...jay

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Our society has become so obsessed with "owning a piece of history" that the boundaries of what really is a piece of history has been stretched to the limit. Not every fragment of our past has historical significance: I think we agree that Ted Williams' uniform or game used bat does, but that his frozen head doesn't. But if that mummified noggin' of his hit the auction block, there's no doubt that a shameless stream of bidders would get in line for it. It has become a national obsession- and we wonder why the rest of the civilized world hates us and looks at us with such contempt.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>One only has to look back at ebay on Sept 12, 2001 to see how low a person can go. To Ebay's credit they quickly pulled any auction having to do with the tragedies of 9/11. There was a person in Texas who tried to ebay a piece of the space shuttle....they got a knock on their front door from the FBI.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>tbob</b><p>I remember watching ESPN recently and seeing Josh Evan's smiling countenance talking about Ty Cobb's dentures. If they had a better provenance he would have bought them. I fully expect to see the bath tub that Jim Morrison died in coming up soon on Leland's memorabilia auction.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think that bathtub is still in Paris. Will have to work something out with the concierge.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>the death of a public figure should NOT be auctioned, sold, or otherwize used for prrofit.<br /><br />Other stuff, like Elvis' hair, just seem silly to me.Except the other day when i heard it was a dentist who bought Cobb's dentures, and had them displayed in his office, I thought it was sort of neat...dunno why. relevancy, I guess.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>martin dalziel</b><p><br /><br />This is Lelands folks, what do you expect. <br /><br />At the first National I attended in Atlanta, Josh Evans response to a Federal League silver brush that I had was "Get that esoteric bull**** outta here. We only deal in real memorabilia, not crap like that". <br /><br />That comment has saved me thousands over the years. I've never seen a need to share my monies with a company headed by such a classless blowhard. <br /><br />I hope this Clemente story makes big news and that people vote with their wallets.<br /><br />Tasteless and Classless - typical Lelands.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I have to chime in because everytime I turn on CNN, I see the story involving John Reznikoff of University Archives being interviewed about the Neil Armstrong hair. I think I've seen it three times today and I wasn't looking for it once. For those of you who don't know the story, the very personal Astronaut's barber sold the hair to 'celebrity hair' collector John Reznikoff for $3,000 and Armstrong's legal team has contacted the parties involved. By no way am I comparing the Clemente piece to Armstrong's hair. <br /><br />The question here, outside of the fact that you all think that Lelands crossed the line by selling this low dollar item with the item itself being of questionable ethics, is Lelands getting 'free' publicity from this and is this good for them?<br /><br />Didn't someone say that there is no such thing as bad publicity?<br /><br />Every news junket has picked up on this story.<br /><br />Just curious.<br /><br />DJ <br />

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>scgaynor</b><p>I really don't see the problem with selling this kind of stuff. This is no different than buying a piece of Lincoln's bed sheets, a piece of coal from the Titanic or a gold coin from the Atocha. It is a relic that relates to a legitimate historical event, even if that event ended in tragedy. <br /><br /> I doubt the bidders want to buy it so they can spit on it everyday. They want it because it relates to a person that they admire and they want a unique piece that relates to their existance. <br /><br />As far as asking the family for their opinion, I can tell you from experience that it is rare for a family to give an item their blessing unless they are getting a cut of the proceeds.<br /><br />Scott

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Good or bad publicity is not the issue. The children of Roberto Clemente lost their father tragically. If it hurts them to see these pieces sold, it should end right there. Leland's doesn't need the commission; they are quite successful. They should simply respect the family's wishes. I know Josh reads this forum; I assume he will have something to say on this matter. Scott, your message came up while I was typing mine, so I have to disagree with you. I know how families with famous ancestors like to capitalize on their fame, but I think this situation is different. There are no survivors of the Titanic; all Clemente's children and his wife are still alive. Big, big, difference!

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>scgaynor</b><p>Barry, I understand your point, but does it make it more legit if the owner waits another 50 years and then they sell it? <br /><br />If the money were going to a good cause, would it be Ok to sell it? Is the problem that somebody is making money on the sale of these items, or just the sale of the items in general?<br /><br /><br />scott

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Frank</b><p>Lelands simply has no class. If Nicole Simpson's slashed remains were available, they'd find a way to list them.<br><br>Frank

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Actually I think there are still living survivors of the Titanic.<br /><br />After doing some googling, it appears that there are at least three Titanic survivors still surviving.<br /><br />Dan

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Scott- Let me put it another way. My brother was killed in a boating accident when he was fourteen years old. My parents have never really gotten over it, and if someone tried to capitalize by auctioning off the boat, they would be beyond devastated- and I would be none too happy myself. Fifty years from now we will all be dead, so it would be a different matter. I don't have to tell you the pain the Clementes went through when Roberto, Sr. died. Please cut them a little slack and respect their wishes. And that is where I am coming from.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>The publicity this issue gets will definitely benefit the auction bottom line if public perception agrees that Leland's in doing the right thing. The final realized prices on the items wont amount to much and Josh is a pretty bright guy. I'm betting that he'll pull the items off the block. It's not like there's a lot of commission to be made. <br /><br />I know this sounds stupid but what kind of proof/provenance is being provided with these items? <br /><br />I'm curious, if the Clemente family didn't say anything about the items up for auction would anyone have criticized the sale of these items?

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I thought I read that the last survivor of the Titanic died a couple of years ago. She was 107 I think. How old are the survivors? That happened 90 years ago, so I guess they could be under 100. And who is to say they still don't feel the hurt if they were children who lost their parents that night? We don't know.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>While I can't relate to Barry's situation, I can see where he is coming from as far as his distress about the auction. I feel for him.<br /><br />Despite that, this is a piece of history that ranks up there with the Oswald bullet, the tipped over Wild Bill Hickok chair, the shreaded gun that killed Selena and more. Is it sick? Yes. Is Lelands doing something wrong offering this? I still don't think so and that's simply one person's opinion. <br /><br />I like Josh and he has never done anything to me. He has always been fair with me. Maybe I'm on my own Island on that one as well.<br /><br />Here's from 1999:<br /><br />An Internet auction of pieces of a plane that crashed in 1979 and killed New York Yankees catcher Thurman Munson was stopped when his widow complained. <br /><br />``How can people do this? This is so vulgar and disgusting. I guess there's a price on anything in life,'' said Diana Munson. <br /><br />Fragments of the wreckage were offered through eBay, an online auction service. Five bids had been received ranging from 1 cent to $12.54 for small pieces of metal and 2-inch pieces of nylon harness. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />Edit to add: I just looked up the Titanic count and all I could find is that according to sites from last year, there were three living members. From 2004 until today...who knows. <br />

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Hoffman</b><p>This is the lowest of the low. I can't imagine any reputable auction house ever thinking that this is okay to sell. The consigner is profiting off of Clemente's death, and Josh Evans is right there, ready to take his cut of the action.<br /><br />I will never, EVER buy anything from Lelands, and I hope we find out who the consignor is, so they can also be blackballed from ever seeing a cent of my money.<br /><br />There are some great people in this hobby, and there are some real chumps. <br /><br />Joshua Evans is a chump.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Wow, i posted this thread about a minute before i went to work and wasnt sure what kind of response it would get.I didnt really think of it at the time of posting but my initial reaction was who would bid on something like that.I think the problem is that people are willing to bid on stuff like that so auction houses will continue to offer them.I applaud auctions that dont sell stuff related to a famous persons death(or famous incident) just to make money off it.Eventho im not a registered bidder with Lelands, im not sure something like this would make me totally blow them off for good,but it will make me think twice about them.<br /><br />In a situation like this i think only relatives would have the moral right to sell something like this and assuming theyre not money hungry,it would probably be very distant relatives who never even met the person in question.<br /><br />If you follow ebay youll notice when ever a baseball player dies,his items are all over ebay,and the prices they get the first few days becomes outrageous.People who sell those items are no better than Lelands in this instance.I remember when Willie Stargell died,the amount of items for him on ebay went from 250-300 at anytime up to 900 the next night

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>William</b><p>Barry, your first post in this thread questioned where the piece of the airplance has been for the past 32 years.<br /><br />Atleast twice over the past ten years, a guy from Puerto Rico (I think) had setup at J. Paul show in Pittsburgh and had the piece of the airplane on display. I don't believe it was for sale, just for display. <br /><br />From my understanding he hired divers to recover some of the wreckage. <br /><br />I assume the piece in Lelands auction is the same piece on display at Pittsburgh shows, but who knows if it is the same piece or how many pieces this guy has.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>A plane could shatter into a lot of pieces. Who knows.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Adam J. Moraine</b><p>Josh Evans,<br /><br />PLEASE put the dignity, and class of the late Roberto Clemente, as well as his family before your own capital gain. You already have more millions than you know what to do with. Why benefit and capitalize from such a tragic event? DO THE RIGHT THING, JOSH!<br /><br />Best Regards,<br /><br />Adam J. Moraine<br />

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I doubt that one pleading response (or even the opinions here) will get Josh to do the right thing. <br /><br />I think the Clemente's will put a stop to the sale and the item will probably be pulled. <br /><br />I like the fact that several of you say you will refuse to ever bid on any more Lelands merchandise. While Lelands isn't really a place to go for 'vintage cards', would that change your tune if suddenly they had a great find cardboard find? Hmmm... <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Bryan</b><p>Let's just hope one of the big card manufacturers doesn't buy the pieces and turn them into memorabilia cards.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>DJ,Josh Evans reads this board,occasionally posts, and im sure hes read how many people read this board per day, and its alot higher than you would think.He also knows many are not only bidders in Lelands but also potential bidders and while its not a consensus opinion,it is overwhelming in favor of the auction being in poor taste.I wouldnt doubt the power this board has among auction houses that deal in the vintage card/memorabilia area.<br /><br />Altho im a huge Pirates fan and therefore a Clemente fan,i didnt start the thread to make a statement towards Lelands choice to auction this item.It has however turned into that thread and when so many people agree,its happened for a good reason.I believe some sort of statement will be released about this topic soon,but probably not here,at least at first.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>what the hell kind of conversation would one say when mentioning the pieces???<br /><br />hey son do you see this piece of metal?...yes dad...well now see this 55 Topps rookie card of this player here... well he died in a plane crash and this is a piece of metal from the airplane in which he was flying in !<br /><br /><br />not in the least bit exciting to me. Matter of fact one has way too much money in pursuing these items.<br /><br />They should be taken to an ocean in a secret way and disposed of.<br /><br /><br />good evening<br />-Dan

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>John,<br /><br />I'm aware that Josh reads this. I'm also aware that only 30 lots in his latest catalog is dedicated to pre-war vintage cards out of the thousand+ lots.<br /><br />The question is: Why didn't Josh make some kind of 'removal announcement yet' (40+ negative posts here and all the 'bad' Press) and what kind of press did he think he was going to get from this by putting the piece into the catalog? Did he think it was a good idea? Did he think that everyone would embrace this 'amazing find'? He's been in the business long enough.<br /><br />The post above is correct. What do you tell your children with any piece like this? I guess you don't. Do you pass it on to them? Is it their graduation present?<br /><br />You tell your buddies at work (who think it's cool, but question the authenticity) and they tell their wives who think you are an idiot with too much money to waste. <br /><br />DJ

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Does Josh know who you are? Just curious as you have more than crossed the line of what the board allows for anonymous posts. Please let me know.....thanks (privately will be ok too)....regards

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>I cant answer any of those questions for Josh but i can say your post that only 30 items are vintage cards is a little misleading because youre assuming only one category of their auction appeals to this board.Theres probably a 100 items at least that appeal to most collectors here,the 19th century section,the Kid Nichols section,post war cards,individual team categories,Ruth,Gehirg,Dimaggio categories,Trophies,awards etc.<br /><br />Not everyone who reads the board only collects pre-war cards,in fact i would assume a majority collect something else(weve had specific threads in the past that have proven that true),and a large majority of the people who read the board dont even post.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>scgaynor</b><p>"hey son do you see this piece of metal?...yes dad...well now see this 55 Topps rookie card of this player here... well he died in a plane crash and this is a piece of metal from the airplane in which he was flying in !"<br /><br />Actually, Yes, that is pretty much exactly what you would say and the response would often be "Wow." I wonder what the response was when it was on display at Robert Morris. Did people turn away in disgust, or did they want to touch it?<br /><br />"not in the least bit exciting to me"<br /><br />Or me either, but in this day of "reality" television I think that alot of people would find those items alot more facsinating than gruesome. <br /><br />To many people, this kind of stuff is more interesting than a mass produced piece of cardboard with some guys picture on it. <br /><br />I would not want to own it, but I know seveal people who would.<br /><br />Scott

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Scott-- Just because some idiot would like to own something like this does not mean that it appropriate for inclusion in an auction. By including an item an auction company is making the statement that they believe the item is OK. Even Ebay has deemed some items inappropriate for sale on their site. Are all auctions driven that strongly by the almighty dollar that they lose touch with common decency? Are you saying that you would have no problem placing an item like this in your auction? I'de like to hear for other auction houses as to whether they would run an item like this.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Scott, would you auction an item like this off? Even if the family voiced their displeasure to you?<br /><br />A lot of people may think that it is cool to own such an item, but I think the Clemente family should be the final arbiter in this case. Personally I think it's gruesome.<br /><br />Maybe Josh can get a hold of the steering wheel from Dale Earnhardt's car for his next auction.

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Posted By: <b>scgaynor</b><p>Jay, you are assuming that everybody feels the same way that you do about this piece. Other people obviously agree with you, but not everybody. Lelands has a history of selling controversal pieces, they usually have at least one each auction that gets this kind of media coverage. <br /><br />My guess is that if this item showed up one ebay, and the family complained to the right people, then ebay would pull it. They have done similar things in the past, they even did it to me over some player contracts that I was selling. <br /><br />If the item was consigned to me, I would tell the consignor that it was not a good ebay item. I don't have a problem with a Clemente collector adding this to his Clemente memorial, but I have a pretty good idea of what sells well on ebay, and this piece would be nothing but problems. <br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>these mass produced cards with players pictures on them are why you are driving a <br />Gallardo. Geez, makes us hate our hobby now.<br /><br />Everybody has an a right to their own opinion, but when a family has a reminder of something very tragic thrown in their faces ,where does your compassion for the hearts of them come in ?<br /><br />Scott....after doing my Charlie Chan chit, confusious "says" that you are the consignor,right???<br /><br />Regardless of how this world has aggressed to where most people cant even sit at the dinner table together....the fat kids are inside watching MTV and playing video games, eatin nem twinkies....causing MLB to go to the Dominican Republic to get players, cause we cant the kids on the ball field anymore and we have boring dads who come home and his topic for the evening is um..."gather round everybody "DADDY" has just bought a chunk of a plane that a famous baseball player died in,"WOW",your kidding , right?....no ,thought you all would enjoy this and wanted to share this with you. <br /><br />Hey dad?....can we play catch with this?...no son, it goes next to the big screen TV for display only, what are you stupid kid????...go to your room and turn on MTV, dont you know art when you see it ? LEAD BY EXAMPLE and not by REALITY TV !<br />

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Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>There are few things that actually create a sense of irratation of this magnitude in our hobby..this is one of them..<br /><br />There is no way this is sports memorabilia, this is a tragic event that is being glorified by a company that I had tremendous respect for, especially since they are directly across the street from one of my stores...I sincerely hope that Lelands pulls this item from their auction out of respect and integrity, we all must look into our concience and as Barry Sloate stated, we would not want our family tragedies to be sold as historical collectibles...Does anybody really want Ed Delehanty's mangled body for their pre 1910 collection?..I hope not...I very rarely write on this message board, I just respect those that care about humanity and this IS important..Josh..Please pull that listing for the Clemente family...

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Posted By: <b>scgaynor</b><p>Dan, I have no financial interest in this piece at all. I didn't even know that Lelands was selling it until I saw this post. <br /><br />I am simply playing devils advocate and trying to explain that just because some people find these pieces to be evil, does not mean that others will not appreciate them. About 60% of my business is autographs, but I have no interest in having an autographed item in my personal collection. Running an auction is not about selling items that only appeal to the owner of the auction house, it is about offering interesting and unique items to the customers. <br /><br />I was not in any way trying to put down cards either. They are how I got started collecting and the staple of the sports memorabilia hobby / business. The truely rare cards are the items that I still get excited about selling. One of the reasons that I visit this forum is because I like seeing what other people have recently added to their collections. <br /><br />I also agree with your assesment of todays kids. That is why I don't watch Reality TV and I take my son out to play Baseball, Tennis, Frisbee, or something else every nice day after work. <br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>I really wouldn't have expected anything less of a person then your claim...<br /><br /><br />but I did think in a harmless way that you deserved a small poke shot...sorta a tooth for tooth hit.<br /><br />This is about his family .Their feelings should matter on this dealing.<br /><br />I know you care about the hobby , you have a great service as well !<br /><br />Dan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Is this morbid? Yes it is. Is this something I would buy? No probably not. Is it wrong to sell hell no. <br /><br />This is no different than many mainstream forms of collecting. I’ll name a few below and you tell me how it’s different or less offensive. <br /><br />Military Collectibles: How many medals are sold every day, many of these very medals were given posthumously. Uniforms how many of these uniforms belonged to loved children who watched as there buddies were mowed down in battle. <br /><br />I myself have a large collection of antique swords. Many of my Scottish claymores weren’t used to carve Thanksgiving turkeys they killed people. Every old gun, sword etc has a morbid past of some sort. <br /><br />Example: The “Enola Gay” is on display at one of the National Air & Space hangars in VA. This very plane killed around 1.4 million people when it delivered the atomic bomb over Hiroshima. Should it not be displayed because it offends Japanese people? <br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/small/use.jpg"><br /><br />Historical Documents & Collectibles: I recently saw a group of correspondences of Adolph Hitler’s on the auction block. Are there no Jew’s alive that remember the holocaust? Should I not own or ever sell my German Tobacco Propaganda cards (below) because I might offend Jews? How many Titanic collectibles are sold? If you found a second copy of a Zapruder film detailing the Kennedy assignation would you not sell it? Al Capone letters must really put you people over the edge huh? <br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/websize/1930qusper20Germanper20_Hitler_per20Propagandaper2 0Cards.jpg"><br /><br />Take a look at a few of the items in this Auction. <br /><a href="http://www.juliaauctions.com/firearms/jp/hi.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.juliaauctions.com/firearms/jp/hi.html</a><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/websize/use%202.jpg"><br />Battle of Little Bighorn Gun (No people died there huh?) Nazi SS Uniform (Should be a big hit at the next bahmitzva I go too) Dutch Schultz’s own handgun (The only non-violent gangster in history I guess)<br /><br />Antiquities: How many devices of torture are on display in the Tower Of London and museum’s around the world. If you stumbled upon a piece of Aztec sacrificial art that was worth millions would you not sell it, because of the innocent people who were sacrificed? How many religious artifacts from the crusades are around and sold everyday?<br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/small/use%201.jpg"><br /><br />I could go on and on. <br /><br />I understand the sensitive nature of the Clemente item. However<br /><br />This is like freedom of speech if you have freedom of speech you have to give racists & idiots the right to talk out as much as we have the right to speak out. You can’t censor things because you don’t like them; unfortunately selling of a piece of a crashed plane is no different than any of the above items being sold or for sale in my mind. But maybe I’m just crazy. <br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Just woke up and missed a good deal of this thread. Not only has Leland's used poor judgment but I have to also say I am disappointed with Scott Gaynor's response. Scott, I've always respected you and I know how hard you have worked to build your terrific business on ebay. But you are just way off base on this one. You said in so many words who is to say what a collector might appreciate, suggesting that if there is someone who might find the pieces of the plane interesting, then that makes it O.K. This discussion is not about the desirability of an artifact; it's about how the Clemente family feels about it. I'm sure there are many people who would like to own a piece of the World Trade Center. Put a piece of that in an auction and see how the 2700 families of the victims feel about it. We are not talking about the Clemente family complaining about the sale of a uniform or a signed contract because they aren't getting their cut. We're talking about a piece of a plane in which Clemente lost his life. There are some things that are taboo and this is one of them. It's all about the family, it's not about the collector.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The Associated Press reports this morning that the Clemente family has decided to take legal actions to prevent the sale of the plane. Roberto Clemente Jr said the family "will not tolerate anyone trying to benefit from my father's passing."

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Posted By: <b>scgaynor</b><p>Barry, thanks for your comments, it looks like we just have a different opinion. We have had a number of conversations abou the hobby and have pretty much always been on the same page in the past. I think that your opinion based more in emotion and he feelings of the family, and mine is based in the mind of a collector. <br /><br />I think that the response of the Clemente family says it all. First they seem to think that the sale of these items are more of a joke and that they are being sold to get a laugh. The last comment tells me that they are upset that somebody is making money off of the items. I think that is what most people are upset about. Not the sale of the item itself, but that somebody is making money off of the tragedy. I wonder if they would be so upset if somebody just gave the stuff away.<br /><br />The last that I heard, it was illegal to sell piece of the World Trade Center because it was considered part of a crime scene. I don't know if that is still the case though.<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Well Scott, I guess we agree that we disagree. I can't go any further with this. My guess is the family is hurt a lot more than that. Obviously, we don't know, we can only assume. Let's see how it all unfolds over the next few days.

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>I've been trying not to post, but finally caved in. I know the consignor (I don't know if he consigned this stuff or sold it directly to Leland's) and was offered these items one time when I was at his house in Puerto Rico. They were literally just lying around his house. Chunk of the Clemente plane here, chunk of the Clemente plane there...<br /><br />He had several different pieces. The stuff in the Leland's auction are not all of the pieces he had in his house. <br /><br />There are a number of hard-to-believe stories about this guy and the things he's done to get his hands on valuable collectibles. If you like the Clemente plane chunks, you might be interested in this: Many people have not heard of Francisco Coimbre, but he and Perucho Cepeda (Orlando's father) are widely considered the greatest Puerto Rican players of the pre-Clemente era. Coimbre lived to be an old man and ultimately died in a fire. For the right price you can also own several burned and melted items from the Coimbre fire. They are currently hanging on this guy's wall. A burnt piece of metal, a melted notary stamp, some damaged buttons, some charred keys. All in a display with a few pictures of Coimbre and even a couple of his cards! I have a picture of it somewhere that I'll try to post later. This would make a great addition to any "How'd They Die?" Puerto Rican baseball collection. Just think, if Ivan Rodriguez dies in a car wreck you might be able to hang a mangled bumper on the wall next to Clemente's propellor and Coimbre's keys. The collecting opportunities are endless as long as players continue to die tragically. <br /><br />Oh, and if you're a Clemente fan but find the plane pieces to be...not within the scope of your collecting, for $20,000 you can own the front door to the house he used to live in. No joke. This guy actually went to Clemente's old house and bought the front door from the people living there. They were not related to Clemente. I'll post some pics of the door if I can find them. <br /><br />-Ryan

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Posted By: <b>hrbaker</b><p>This story is getting a lot of play on sports talk radio here in Atlanta this morning. Most of the press is negative.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Barry & Others;<br /><br />I’m not trying to beat you up and I respect your opinions very much. I’m just trying to understand yours and some of the other folks thinking here. <br /><br />“It's all about the family, it's not about the collector.”<br /><br />“There are no survivors of the Titanic; all Clemente's children and his wife are still alive. Big, big, difference”<br /><br />So are you saying that as long as no one is alive to be offended by the items it’s ok to profit from death and morbid curiosity? But its not ok if you going to hurt someone’s feelings in the process. <br /><br />I just see it as either you have a moral issue with profiting from anyone’s misfortune or death or you don’t period. Timing and feelings shouldn’t be a changing factor in your moral beliefs. <br /><br />To me that’s like saying I only steal small things like candy bars and soda’s I would never steal a car. You either have a problem with stealing or you don’t little things or not your still a thief if you steal.<br /><br />Scott brought another good point would the family be up in arms if the piece was donated to Cooperstown. Or are they angry that someone is profiting from their misfortune? <br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>what is so historic about these pieces to be in Cooperstown?<br /><br />I sure hope that the undershorts that Dillinger crapped in when he died arent up for grabs....I guess that there are many different morals of collecting .It certainly may tell of ones proper upbringing!

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If the Clemente family were asked about this prior to the sale, and gave their approval, then I wouldn't have as much issue. I would leave it up to them. If the pieces were sold and the monies donated to charity (which Roberto obviously felt strongly about) then maybe that would be ok with them, don't know for sure though. I don't doubt there will be a lot of interest in these items but I have to go back to the Clemente families feelings on the matter.....once that's cleared, and they are ok with it, then so be <br />it.....just my opinion......regards all<br /><br />edited to add- John, yes it is all about the Clemente families feelings, imo....

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>John- You made an interesting point and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, since I think this whole issue falls under the umbrella of what is the ethical thing to do. As far as capitalizing on the death of someone, it's probably never an ethically sound policy. But if you sold an artifact belonging to Attila the Hun, who was a ruthless killer, it's safe to say that something that occurred in the 5th century is less likely to offend than something that occurred in 1972.<br /> When Jackie Kennedy passed away she left some confidential information about her past (and President Kennedy's, for that matter) that was to remain a guarded secret until the death of her children. Similarly, until Mark Felt stepped forward last week, the identity of "Deep Throat" would have been unknown until he too died. There is something about waiting for the immediate family to pass that changes the dynamics of an event. Lincoln's assassination was a national tragedy but his children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren have all died, so the issue is a little more tied up in history than say the tragedy of 9/11, which is still an open wound for everyone. Never great to make a buck off of someone else's misery, but I think time is an important factor and now is not the time to sell the Clemente plane with his wife and children still alive. A hundred years from now, still not classy but a different story.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Dan;<br /><br />I hope you weren’t taking a shot at my upbringing. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/128.gif"><br /><br />There is no reason for the pieces to be in Copperstown. My point was a question that Scott brought up. Would the family of Clemente have an issue with the pieces if no profit was being made, and they were donated to a museum of some type? <br /><br />Not to long ago some pieces of James Dean’s Porsche 550 Spyder he died in were sold. To me this is no different. Lets also make one thing clear I’m not saying I agree with or that I find the items even remotely interesting, because I don’t. <br /><br />I just have a more black & white view of this issue. There are hundreds of collecting genres, which many people could find offensive (veterans, holocaust survivors, Native Americans, African Americans etc.) on personal or moral levels. The last I checked the T203 baseball comics weren’t too politically correct. <br /><br />And Leon I understand your point. My point is if we have to take everyone’s feelings into consideration when it comes to historical items of any kind. We wouldn’t be able to display, purchase or learn about many historic events. Its sad sometimes it has to take an ugly face, but if you don’t allow Leland’s to sell this. Then by the same token you shouldn’t allow other major auction houses to sell many of the items I posted above which they do on a routine basis.<br />

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Barry;<br /><br />You make a very good point. And for the most part I agree with you on this. It’s funny how society has changed. Today we are more plugged into death and destruction than ever before. But in many ways we are so removed from it as well. Today we say that we have crossed the lines when something like Clemente’s plane parts are up for sale. <br /><br /><br />You brought up Lincoln; during the 19th century it wasn’t uncommon to sell locks of hair of famous people Lincoln included. In fact many people wore hair of a loved one or famous person in a morning broach a type of jewelry, which they publicly displayed with pride.<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=409&item=618386957 7&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=409&item=618386957 7&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW</a>

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>We probably feel pretty much the same way on this. ALL I am talking about is the families feelings.....my wife calls me a "soft heart". What can I say? And yes, it might make a difference to them if the proceeds were donated to charity as it would have been Roberto's wishes, most likely. After the family is taken into account I don't have as much issue with this scenario. You know what they say...."funerals are really for the living". In this matter I am only concerned with the family going through anymore pain..regards

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Leon;<br /><br />I hear you. You big softie. I know what you mean I’m Scotch/Irish the best party I will ever be thrown will be my funeral to bad I’m not going to be able to enjoy it.<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Yes John, but selling a lock of Lincoln's hair would not have been as offensive as selling the bullet that killed him. After all, he didn't die from a haircut.<br /> Pieces from James Dean's car are equally tacky (this September 30th is the fiftieth anniversary of his death, for those who are counting) but Dean had no children and I don't know if any of his immediate family are still alive. Again, each issue has to be looked at independently.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Good point Barry, however Oliver Stone has a new movie coming out which un covers a government cover up that Lincoln did die from a bad haircut. And that Booth was framed.<img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"><br /><br /><br />Speaking of reality TV. How many police or law enforcement widows are sickened each time they flip pass “Growing Up Gotti” on TV. While she lives in the lap of luxury from dirty crooked money on national TV, while they are trying to survive on a pension or life insurance payout.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim Hoffman</b><p>This isn't the same as selling a piece of Jackie Kennedy's estate. Those items weren't associated with her death. The Clemente wreckage is unique in that it is a tangible piece of material that is tied directly with his death. I'm not at all opposed to selling Clemente's autographs or game used equipment or even mementos from his life, but this plane wreckage is completely different.<br /><br />The fact that he died prematurely, and on a heroic, humanitarian mission makes these auction lots completely sacred, and they should never be sold. <br /><br />I can't even imagine anything else that could compare to the wrongness of this sale. Even those who sold WTC photos and books, etc. after 9/11, those people weren't selling actual wreckage or office equipment, etc. <br /><br />I suspect the person who brought up Dale Earnhardt's steering wheel probably came the closest in describing the absurdity of the sale.<br /><br />Maybe it might compare to slavery leg-irons or pieces from Nazi concentration camps.<br /><br />Several months ago I noticed an auction with at least one lot of artwork from John Wayne Gacy, the Chicago mass-murderer. I don't remember the auction house, but that lot also left me aghast. <br /><br />Those who trade in this ghoulishness are nothing short of grave robbers, and deserve their names and reputations to be dragged through the mud.<br /><br />Just like the despicable Joshua Evans.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim Hoffman is right on the money. Does anyone see an ethical difference between selling the gun that Booth used to kill Lincoln or selling the gun that Mark David Chapman used to kill John Lennon? With Yoko, Julian, and Sean still alive, isn't there a distinction between the two events?

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Posted By: <b>Adam J. Moraine</b><p>Hey Guys (and Julie),<br /><br />73 posts now, and STILL no response from Josh Evans. How cowardly from someone who is "SUPPOSELY" a "RESPECTED LEADER, AND AUTHORITY" of our great hobby! Be a man, and face the music Josh because YOU have A LOT of explaining to do.<br /><br />Best regards,<br /><br />Adam J. Moraine

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Yes I see a difference timing that’s all. I brought up the Enola Gay for a reason, not to long ago a group of Japanese wanted to have the plane removed from display and dismantled. They found it morbid and dis-respectful to Japanese people. They found it to bring back to many (rightfully so) horrific memories. <br /><br />So what are we to do wait until all people who were alive and can remember WW2 are dead? Then wait until even more time passes so that direct descendants of those veterans are dead as well, before we display an import piece of history. <br /><br />History is history gentleman good, bad and sometimes even ugly and sickening. How many churches in the world have relics (body parts) of saints or claim to have a piece of the cross. If there really was a piece of the cross would you be as disgusted or would you want to see it?<br /><br />“Those who trade in this ghoulishness are nothing short of grave robbers, and deserve their names and reputations to be dragged through the mud.”<br /><br />Jim give it a few years and what you call grave robbing becomes Archeology. And its still grave robbing no matter how you dice it. <br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/King_11537.gif"><br /><br />So you guys are ok with grave robbing, murder weapons, items of historic tragedy just as long as no one gets their feelings hurt or is alive that could be offended. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>If the family is pursuing legal action, it may be judicious for him to remain silent.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Boy, that King Tut gold mask would sure look good on my mantelpiece. Is it for sale? Truth is, people will continue to capitalize on other's misery as long as there is a buck in it for them. It's up to each and every buyer and seller to make his own moral decision. There's no easy answer to this.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Barry its for sale but I have to honest with you I think its been trimmed.

Lelands/Clemente family problems
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Trimmed or not, it sure is shiny. I might go as high as $750 for it, but that's my best offer.

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Posted By: <b>Jim Hoffman</b><p>John, I appreciate your point of view. I don't have anything to counter the King Tut stuff. I don't feel any reverence toward the Tut relics. Someone else might be disturbed by the trade of those items, but that's not my issue. I CAN see how people might look at the Enola Gay with some strong emotions either way, including how they might be disturbed that the plane is "celebrated". <br /><br />I agree that history is history. But that doesn't mean that every historic fragment needs to be brought to the open market. There are some things in the world that need not have a price tag, or an 18 percent buyers premium.<br /><br />Joshua Evans cannot have a free pass on this. <br /><br />If there was a hotel that knowingly rented space to the KKK or the Aryan Nation, shouldn't they be called on the carpet?<br /><br />If a travel agency was selling travel packages for men to travel to Thailand to have unsavory relations with children, shouldn't they be called on it?<br /><br />Would you buy products from a company that you knew was violating even the most basic pollution standards?<br /><br />Would you buy products that you knew were made by sweatshop employees?<br /><br />I have never met anyone from the Clemente family. I never even saw Clemente play. But the fact that some anonymous person is selling airplane wreckage, with Josh Evans' blessing is wrong.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>I can't precisely define the line, but I know when something is on the wrong side of it. Particularly now that the family has expressed their revulsion, the item should be pulled, and anyone who has bid on it or is considering bidding on it should examine their conscience.