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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>will watson</b><p>first off, i don't want this thread to turn into a smack talking or grading company war. <br /><br />that being said, i was wondering why the majority of collectors on Net 54 dislike PSA. <br /><br />they are my grader of choice, both for prewar and "modern" cards. do i feel they're perfect? far from it. they have their problems, as does every grading company. i only have a few gripes with PSA: the way they sweep their problems under the table is annoying, as is their inability to properly holder cards in the correct sized slabs (i hate, HATE, cards in anything other than snug fit holders. i display my cards, and quite frankly some PSA slabs- especially with the dreaded "condom" - look like crap). <br /><br />that being said, i still like PSA. the cards i own are graded and labelled accurately, along with most i see offered on ebay. are there some instances of over/undergrading and mislabelled holders? of course. again, graders are humans, and humans make mistakes occasionally. <br /><br />i think PSA and SGC are both excellent grading companies (i have no experience with GAI, so i cannot comment). both make mistakes- PSA seems to be better at postwar stuff, whereas SGC seems to be better with prewar stuff- but overall, i believe both companies do their job well. <br /><br />i was just wondering why SGC seems to be infallible, while PSA seems to be the butt of most grading complaints.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>PSA caters to the modern [read: post-war] crowd because they generally charge the lowest prices and have driven the price of grading down over the past 5 years. They have done this by reducing service to the consumer - e.g. no longer do two graders look at a card before it is encapsulated. <br /><br />In driving down prices for grading, they had to cut costs significantly - and most of the senior graders at PSA flew the coop, so to speak. There are few, if any, truly knowledgeable graders at PSA these days. Certainly not like the list of names I can name from a few years ago.<br /><br />Also - PSA does not spend as much time researching issues. The pre-war market is a very subtle one. Alterations are rampant for a variety of reasons [many of them dating back to pre-1990s...], and some issues need to be carefully researched. As it specifically relates to pre-war issues, PSA often does not spend the time researching issues as other graders [like SGC] does. There are also enough allegations about some high-grade pre-war PSA cards that there is certainly a bell for concern. I know I have at least a handful of scans of important pre-war vintage PSA-graded cards that appear to be altered.<br /><br />Just like almost any other market, Will - there are niches for the different players. PSA, more than anything else, caters to the PSA Set Registry crowd, which encompasses primarily post-war collectors and super-duper high grade pre-war collectors. Beckett caters to the modern crowd, finding a miniscule scratch somewhere on a refracting, game-used autographed parallel card and calling it NM. SGC's niche is pre-war. They do it exceptionally well - much better than PSA, GAI and any of the other third-tier players. <br /><br />The majority of my graded cards tend to be in PSA holders - but I must admit that any of my pre-war submissions are not to PSA...<br /><br /><br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Wp</b><p>SGC is absolutely a superior service in pre war cards. They are also a superior service in post war cards, however more collecotrs want their post war cards in psa holders for registry purposes. In time, the post war SGC market will surpass the PSA market when collectors relize the superiority of the SGC product. The cards are just of a much higher quality especially at the high end.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>"the way they sweep their problems under the table"<br /><br />"their inability to properly holder cards in the correct sized slabs"<br /><br />Add to that their propensity for making mistakes on prewar cards, their lousy customer service and their flimsy holders.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Tom</b><p>Without question PSA is the worst grading company the past two years. From top to bottom they are just at the bottom of the barrel. They have done injustice to me by swamping a card. The reason all the old timers left either they did not want a part of what was going on inside the company are they were fired because they new to much. The is so much to talk about this company reputation it's almost unbelievable, but true. Look what the Better Business Report says about both companies UNSATAFACTORY RATING. Stay away from these companies they are nothing, but BAD BAD NEWS!
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Please reference prior posts of my lost/stolen card. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1054127903&lp=1055 948439" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1054127903&lp=1055 948439</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1054127903&lp=1055 948439</a</a>>
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Tom, edit your post - "swamping a crad" should be "swaping a card" "new" should be "knew"
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>In the pre-war, I only collect Goudey cards. It seems PSA dominates in Goudey cards, the prices for equivalently graded Goudey cards are much higher for PSA than SGC.<br /><br />These comments regarding SGC being more knowledgable in pre-War cards - does it pertain to Goudey cards also? In the opinion of the board, does PSA do a good job with Goudey cards?
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>John J. Grillo</b><p>I have submitted quite a few times to each of the big 3. With that said, I truly believe it doesn't make a darn difference who you submit to. I like the GAI holders the best and their one-on-one relationship with customers (even the little guys like me) is superb. Everyone mentions Mike Baker, but Danny Fisher is great to deal with as well. <br /><br />I can say the same for SGC...Sean is absolutely superb in responding to questions and offering insight and advice. I love the in-depth description on the labels (i.e. year, catalog #, manufacturer, etc).<br /><br />I feel PSA doesn't get their fair due at times on this board. Their customer service with me is excellent, and although I have had one or two problems with service over the last 9 years or so, the talk of "bad customer service" is blown way out of proportion imo. Corsetta and BJ Searls have been excellent to deal with. I like the communication process as well (i.e. instant e-mails when my order is rec'd and when my cards are graded/shipped). I also like the simplicity of the design of their holder. My grades (and I submit vintage, pre-war boxing) have been mostly on par...some grades seem a little higher, some a little lower and some right on in my opinion.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>anonymousdave</b><p>...and everybody makes mistakes.<br /><br /><br />Heh.<br /><br /><br />edited: for Vargha
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Generally PSA graded cards will sell for more than their SGC and GAI counterparts but don't let price fool you as to who of the 3 does a better job and is more consistent.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Kenny Low</b><p>"Generally PSA graded cards will sell for more than their SGC and GAI counterparts but don't let price fool you as to who of the 3 does a better job and is more consistent. "<br /><br />If that is true, does that mean there is alot of money in buying SGC graded cards, submitting it to PSA, and selling them? That may sound "un-hobby-like", but there's a ton of people looking to make money. Are there a lot of people doing this?
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>My personal view is that all three companies are about the same in terms of their consisency in grading. They are all human and make mistakes. You see more examples of mistakes in PSA holders here for two reasons: 1) Some members on this board like to highlight every instance they find and 2) PSA has probably graded 10x as many cards as the other two companies combined so if all other things were equal there would be 10x as many mistakes in PSA holders.<br /><br />I don't think it is necessarily the case that more people on this board prefer SGC. There are about 600 lurkers on this board if I remember the number Leon posted a few months ago correctly. Just because there are some vocal advocates for one service or another does not mean they represent large numbers of people. I have conversed with a lot of people who lurk on this site who prefer PSA and get sick of all the PSA bashing.<br /><br />JimB<br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>"If that is true, does that mean there is alot of money in buying SGC graded cards, submitting it to PSA, and selling them? That may sound "un-hobby-like", but there's a ton of people looking to make money. Are there a lot of people doing this?"<br /><br />Kenny - that is not the case at all. If every grading company graded the same - then absolutely that would make sense. But most buyer of, say, vintage GAI 9.5 or GAI 10 cards know that they generally do not cross to a PSA or SGC counterpart. Also - there are certainly instances where PSA might think a card is not altered - but you would get a disagreeing opinion from GAI or SGC. I know many of us have had that happen.<br /><br />Your theory only works if a PSA 5 = SGC 60 5.0 = GAI 5.0. Many dealers make good businesses out of inspecting cards in person and making strategic crosses. But for an average collector on Ebay who is looking at scans, beware. Remember - people generally aren't stupid [although there is a fair amount of irrationality in this hobby] - and they generally wouldn't leave money on a table if they knew that they could cross a card and make a few hundred dollars.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Tom</b><p>Just hold on to your PSA cards because it's just a matter of time until they sink like the titanic. When this happens alot of people will be scrambling to remove their card (s) from their holder (s). Money is the driving force behind every company. That is why PSA started grading anything and everything just to make a buck. Go back and look at there stock CLCT when it fell below a dollar they had to do a four way split to keep the company floating. There was so much confusion about there grading style and how they handled the consumer cards they PSA put out a video on how they graded there cards from the time they received them until they were shipped. (What a joke). They do not have any policies what so ever or anyone in charge. They are just a bunch of clowns! I repeat STAY AWAY!
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>will watson</b><p>apparently, you cannot read.<br /><br />"first off, i don't want this thread to turn into a smack talking or grading company war."<br /><br /><br />thanks to everyone else who responded.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Tom</b><p>Yes, I can read, but the truth is the truth and sometimes that hurts.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>I am no PSA fan. That being said, There are a lot of great cards in PSA holders. There are also alot of trimmed and overgraded cards in their holders. Unfortunately for PSA their biggest problems lie in their high dollar high grade cards. My advise is educate yourself and learn to look at the cards and make an educated evaluation yourself. Never just look a the flip and take it as gospel especially when buying PSA.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I thought I read somewhere that PSA and GAI merged..wait, scratch that. I agree with the above comment about Mike Baker and Danny Fisher at GAI, both are very personable and it was PSA's loss when they left. I took 140 cards to them after PSA changed the per card price of my sumission after-the-fact. Supposedly, the price change was mandated by Joe Orlando..the next day Orlando had nothing to do with it..who knows and who cares.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>tim Mayer</b><p>i don't get it, you bring up a discussion, but then tell people what they can and can't talk about,<br /><br />obviously you expected fireworks by posting this, and then you want to control the content afterwards?<br /><br />whatever...<br /><br />people dislike PSA for there own specific reasons,,,,thats the answer to your question
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Tom,<br />I think psa is great. I sent in a reproduction Thorpe rookie for grading and received a real one back in return. What is your issue with them?
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>and again ad nauseum has this same discussion been repeated on this Board. Isn't it getting a bit stale? We can all make our own judgments and buy what we like, and the result of those collective judgments is the market and the market prices. Is this a weekly ritual? Over under on how long it is till someone starts another virtually identical thread?
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>Conflict of interest - CU/PSA<br /><br />All of the grading companies have there moments but PSAs seem to be magnified because they grade so much material and there is a perception that management for the company could care less about the collectors. I haven't had any "personal" dealings with them. I've only had cards graded by them therefore I don't have much of an opinion about PSAs management. If I were to form an opinion based on what is read on this board I would probably think that they were a bunch of bumbling idiots, but look whose laughing all the way to the bank. <br /><br />You throw PSA/DNA into the mix and it really paints an ugly portrait of PSA. <br /><br />I'd take SGC as my top choice but I sure like the way that GAI puts that little item description tab at the top of their holders.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Yes, that item description on the top of GAI holders is nice - now if they could only learn to produce better fitting inserts. <br /><br />All of my cards either have or are in the process of being crossed over to sgc. Good looking and well fitting slab with consistent grading to boot. Cant ask for much more excpet good service - oh, they got that too.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>steve k</b><p><<< i was just wondering why SGC seems to be infallible, while PSA seems to be the butt of most grading complaints. >>><br><br>There have also been negative comments made here about SGC. But you're right, PSA gets the most complaints here.<br><br>The bottom line is that some people incorrectly believe that grading is a science. It's not a science, it's an art. Perhaps a better description of grading would be a "guideline" and that's what I use grading for. For the most part with the major grading companies, the cards are authetic and the vast majority are not trimmed. With that in mind, I then proceed to buy the card not the holder. There are a number of cards out there in my view that for example a t206 PSA 2 looks better than a PSA 3 or 4, etc., etc. If seeing a card I like, and it has good visual quality for the grade at the right price, I buy it. If not, then I don't buy it - it's as simple as that.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Why do I choose not to use PSA its easy two words…CHILD LABOR!<br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/child_assemblers_taiwan%20copy.jpg"><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/nike_child_labor_big%20copy.jpg">
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>LOL
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/.Pictures/Grading%20Mishaps/1895Shindle.jpg"> <img src="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/.Pictures/Grading%20Mishaps/Zeenut%20Weaver.jpg"><br /><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/.Pictures/Grading%20Mishaps/PSABenderredport.jpg">
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Wp</b><p>The Mayo says it all, utter incompetance.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>so why have the Mayo ad there <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Who would even dare send that Mayo in to be graded? You couldn't possibly expect it to get a grade- but you would be wrong. Did Mayo issue a set of minis?
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Wp</b><p>Its almost as rediculous as the Honus/Henie Wagner PSA 2. Any scans?
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>PSA has also graded an N172 Billy Sunday with the ad cut off the bottom. They've placed a T201 in a holder - FOLDED. The list goes on.... lets not forget about the Wrong "Hans" Wagner PSA labeled incorrectly. <br /><br />Is this a PSA bashing thread? The funny thing is that I haven't seen too much in the way of SGC errors in grading. Does anyone have any examples to share?
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I returned a trimmed T213-1 to a bad ebayer and argued for weeks. I think I even posted it on the board. After it showed up in an SGC holder I called SGC. They said they would have to look at in person to confirm it but it did look suspicious to them. They said it was overpriced so what could they do? I thought it was handled wrong. That is one issue out of thousands of cards I have seen graded by them. Being that they are human I would guess there are more....regards
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Wp</b><p>This week there is a PSA beauty selling. An E93 Ty Cobb PSA 6, it appears to be blatantly trimmed.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>Seriously, you need to come out of hibernation. The first two sentences in your post totally contradict what you HAD to know would happen. I think there are way too many people on this board who start threads EXACTLY like this one, knowing exactly what they are doing. If this is even a semi-democracy, I vote that Leon immediately removes such blather as soon as it appears. <br /><br /><<first off, i don't want this thread to turn into a smack talking or grading company war.<br /><br />that being said, i was wondering why the majority of collectors on Net 54 dislike PSA. >><br /><br />edited by leon to say I was going to stop it in it's tracks but some good posts came out in the thread and I will always opt to not censor it it's close....it's just the way I do it...right or wrong...
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Will comes from a board(LTS) where many consider 1980 vintage and where PSA is considered by many to be infallible.<br /><br />Virtually all my cards are graded by PSA but I consider them to be third in quality of the three major grading companies.<br /><br />Over a year ago I submitted nearly 500 cards to PSA that I thought had a shot at psa 8(1960s vintage). Roughly half came back less. A dealer then went through these--broke out about 85 cards that he thought were wrongly graded--and about 85% came back with a higher grade--some went up by 2 or 3 grades.<br /><br />Like a previous poster, I believe that the quality of their service started deteriorating when they reportedly went to the "one-and-out" system where just one grader looks at a card before it is slabbed.<br /><br />I think Baker is the premeir grader in the industry overall bbut like a previous poster I think that for pre--war I would rank sgc first. Hooray for Dave Forman for emphasizing quality.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Wp</b><p>Agreed. A one and out system is crazy for a service like PSA. The potential for altered cards to get in holders and massive overgrading is huge,
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>They do not care, it is about volume and money.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Three anti PSA posts within the space of maybe 15 minutes!!!
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>I think Dan summed it up very concisely - although it's clear from other posts that he doesn't like PSA, his statement was totally factual.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Who said anything about attacking Dan? I was just impressed that he managed to find a way to sound a similar theme on three different threads almost simultaneously.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>someone with "PSA" in their handle posting about someone else making anti-PSA posts...gee, sounded sort of like an attack. But I guess I was wrong - sorry about that!
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>As in my initials (Peter A. Spaeth). Tough on the old eyes though.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>sorry Peter! perhaps I am dyslecix.<br /><br />In any case, I stick with my defence of Dan - perhaps this one time it was an accident, but his criticism of PSA was factual. Does anyone here really think PSA is purposely alienating customers? It is in fact completely about money and volume - well said Dan.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>It is about business and however lacking they are in customer service, grading and accuracy, it has not hurt them in their popularity and profitability.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>If PSA exhibited better customer service and improved business practices, they would be more popular and make larger profits.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>I agree Scott but they have never really demonstrated that since day 1. Collectors have never made them accountable. The dealers submissions are what is keeping the company afloat. The results of the submissions are gobbled up by the consumers (collectors).
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>I have never seen any evidence to the contrary. While it might not have been true at day 1, PSA now has competitors who DO consider customer service and quality. Some collectors are no longer gobbling up PSA slabs - the SGC slabs that are being gobbled up instead represent dollars that PSA could be pocketing. Perhaps at some point those dollars will be significant enough for PSA to change their attitude...but maybe not. Mr. Orlando's "I can do whatever I want" attitude certaily indicates that PSA isn't too concerned about competition.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>CU has demonstrated plenty of arrogance and I am sure it has cost them, though one would not think so when you look at the Set Registry and the prices being paid for cards (I know we have had that discussion many times over). <br /><br />I would have thought that certain events that took place would have had a profund impact on CU's marketshare but I just see them continue to shake off bad publicity and leave the competition in the dust. <br /><br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Has anyone done a comparison of the number of cards each of the big three grade a month?
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Mike P.</b><p>Keep in mind that when this was listed on ebay and PSA was notified they immediately deleted the serial number so it's no longer in their database(at least not the public online one), I wish I took a screen shot of that.<br /><br /><img src="http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-3/127815/honusheiniewagnerpsa.jpg">
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>They did the same to my partner who bought a T206 Red Cobb PSA 7 in which the flip indicated it was the Ty Cobb back.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>JIM C - just curious if the cards that were resubmitted, were sent by the dealer back to psa (indicating that he may also get some sort of preferential treatment as has been surmised).
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Rick</b><p>business seems good at CU, if you add their other divisions (PCGS ,PSA/DNA etc)the numbers look even better.<br /><br /><br /><br />"PSA Units <br /><br />PSA units authenticated and graded grew by approximately 17% to 283,000 units in the quarter ended March 31, 2005, or 38% of the aggregate units authenticated and graded, from 242,000 in the same period in 2004. For the nine months ended March 31, 2005, PSA units increased by approximately 10% to 801,000, or 38% of the aggregate units authenticated and graded, from 730,000 units in the same nine months of the prior year."<br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>MikeP,<br /><br />You think that is something I have a T206 PSA 9 Heinie Wagner(Bat on Right Shoulder) that is labeled Honus Wagner. Now this has got to show incredible ignorance and/or carelessness on the part of PSA to take a PSA 9 card of Heinie Wagner and label it Honus Wagner--imagine, a PSA 9 card of the most famous card in history.<br /><br />JoshK,<br /><br />This dealer got back my 500 or so submissions and couldn't believe all the 7s I got. So he went through them all--picked out about 85, broke them out and resubmitted. To my shock, a number of psa 5s turned into 8s, 6s turned into 8s and 7s turned into 9s. In total about 85% went up in grade.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Jim,<br /> With experiences like that how do you continue to have faith in their product?
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>WP,<br /><br />I don't but I am kind of in a box.<br /><br />PSA cards have the highest resale value for most of the post-war sets I collect(not necessarily true in pre-war).<br />I am trying to complete sets in nrmt-mt or better. It is impossible to find the graded cards of SGC or GAI that I need.<br />There would likely be some cost of conversion although if enough of my PSA 8s cross to GAI 8.5s or SGC 92s this could be offset.<br />The number of slabbed cards I have make a full-scale conversion problematic.<br />I have though stopped giving PSA my raw sets.<br /><br />Dav<br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Tom Papa</b><p>"Jim,<br />With experiences like that how do you continue to have faith in their product?"<br /><br /><br /><br />Correct me if I'm wrong Jim but I'd say you don't have faith in their product anymore and haven't for a long time. But since your collecting goal has been 100 vintage sets in PSA 8 or better condition you have to stay with the grading company that has the cards in the holders ....correct?<br /><br />Why not collect the cards ....and not worry about the holders Jim? How 'bout a revised goal of 100 vintage sets in NMMT condition? That way you can put the nightmare that is PSA behind you.<br /><br />I just want to see you happy. Seriously.<br /><br /><br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />I am the happiest guy in the world.<br /><br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Tom Papa</b><p>edited ....by me<br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p><br /><br /><br /><br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />In response, first I like the competitiveness of the Set Registry. Second, I do not consider myself an expert in judging if a card has been tampered with. So I like the idea of having the cards authenticated. Thirdly, I also like my cards nmt-mt and like to have an independent judge of that.<br /><br />Jim
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Jim,<br /> In response to your prior post. What percentage of cards that you own do you think will not cross to SGC or GAI if you choose to cross? The 92's would add alot of value but how would you feel if you find out that a substantial part of your collection is either overgraded or altered.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>WP,<br /><br />As to what % of my cards would be GAI 8.5s or SGC 92s, Mike Baker came over my house and gave a ballpark estimate of 40-45% would be 8.5s.<br /><br />He also said that GAI would be willing to set up shop for a week in my basemennt to grade them all GAI.<br /><br />Dav
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>What amount wouldn't grade 8 is what you should be concerned about. Surely they wouldnt just blindly cross your entire collection without examining the material.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim has some incredible sets in the registry (I know as I am behind him on just a very few of his), so I would second: a) his general happiness; and b) the reasons why he's sticking with PSA. I have a fraction of the graded sets that he has and once you're in the registry deep you're in the registry probably forever. While I would probably rather have my sets all in SGC (mostly due to the looks of the holder), the pain associated with crossing them over makes such a prospect impossible.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>I remember PSA a few years back would set up at a Tuesday night show in Parsippany NJ essentially because Solomon Cramer promised them a huge supply of cards to grade if they did, but setting up in someone's HOUSE is taking it to the next level for sure. On the one hand, I guess you can't beat that for customer service. On the other hand, something about it seems a little inappropriate.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>will watson</b><p>in my initial post, i tried to make it clear i didn't see PSA as perfect. far from it. i know they make (often stupid) mistakes, and frankly, the way the deal with those mistakes often makes them look like idiots. as far as the registry goes, it's a genius marketing tool. has it helped PSA immensely? of course. does it make people pay insane prices for "low pop" cards? yep. that isn't PSA's fault. blame the collectors who pay these prices. remember- cards are worth whatever someone will pay for them. if a '54 Ben Wade PSA 8 regularly sells for over $2k, then that leads me to believe thats a true indicator of its real world value- regardless of the huge discrepancy from its raw price guide "book value."
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>will watson</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />do you really think it's a good idea to publicly state that Mike Baker comes over and sets up shop in your basement? what kind of mickey mouse operation does GAI run? i don't think graders should have any contact whatsoever with submitters, especially coming over for morning coffee.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Scott Ingold</b><p>I agree with goodriddance...... How can M. Baker show up at your house for gradding purposes ? I have been using GAI for the part year or so do to the BS with PSA. But if this is true I might have to rethink this also. <br /><br />I talk to Mike on occasion as well as Danny Fischer and think this is something i'd like to learn more about before sending more of my sets to them.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>WP,<br /><br />What amount would not grade 8?--I hope very little. My guess would be 2% GAI 9. 40% GAI 8.5%, 57.9% GAI 8 and .1% less.<br /><br />Of course thwey would look at every card carefully--it would take at least a week.<br /><br />Jeff,<br /><br />I agree that the odds are that I am in them forever--what sets are you on the registry in?<br /><br />Scott and PASJD,<br /><br />Nothing has happened or is even likely to happen. We are however talking about the potential conversion of over 20,000 PSA cards anjd I do have a big basement.<br /><br />Dav
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>to the rest of us, or at least me, as to what to look for in getting all high-end 8s. After all, if you have over 20K graded PSA 8s and less than .1% would fall below GAI 8 (the equivalent of about 20 or so cards), you have by far a keener eye than anyone with whom I've shared collecting experiences.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Only buy 8s that look like 9s to the naked eye -- perfect centering, razor sharp corners, no apparent defects -- and you should be OK. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>In response to the following, considering how large your collection is and how many t206's you own, I'd be surprised if you weren't a much better judge of tampering than the guys at PSA. The "independent judge" that you seek (the god-like cheetoh munchers) does nothing but add re-sell value to your cards. You are buying a plastic value add-on, nothing more.<br /><br /><<In response, first I like the competitiveness of the Set Registry. Second, I do not consider myself an expert in judging if a card has been tampered with. So I like the idea of having the cards authenticated. Thirdly, I also like my cards nmt-mt and like to have an independent judge of that.>><br />
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />I do not mean to represent that I have a sharper eye than anyone else.<br /><br />What I meant to convey is that I don't think that GAI would mark many of my cards down. If they really felt they had to then I theoretically would pull it.<br /><br />Dav
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>the cards are either nm/mt or they are not, whether graded by PSA, SGC, GAI or the members of this board. If the gripe is that PSA is inconsistent (a point with which I agree, BTW), then it seems to me that 20,000 graded 8s should show a lot of divergence if submitted to another company or to the collecting community at large. Yet by your remarks, only 2.1% would score outside the nm/mt grade at GAI. That to me suggests that you'd get basically the same result at GAI. <br /><br />As for Will's inital post, I'll chime in with my two cents, which is basically nothing new.<br /><br />1. SGC is not infallible--they have taken their shots on this board from time to time.<br />2. PSA has made some monumental gaffes, and no, the members here don't seem to miss many of them.<br />3. SGC is the preferred grading company here, although many don't put much or any stock in graded cards period.<br />4. The members here would probably not hesitate to buy a PSA card if they really wanted it, subject to #5 below, as this board truly seems to adhere to the buy the card not the holder philosophy, which is often at odds with the driving force behind the PSA set registry.<br />5. PSA's customer service and overall attitude is basically horse-hockey, and some will not do business with a company that treats them or their collecting friends so poorly.<br />6. There is a vibe generated here that may come across as superiority or condescension toward non-prewar collectors, that may in act be genuine or may be misunderstood by both sides. There is a bit of a "it's our sandbox, go play somewhere else" in that regard. Some take that more to heart than others, and I believe it's a function of what one collects. It is simply uninteresting to have a whole bunch of discussions about things that you do not not care and do not collect. Post-war questions in general and PSA set registry type questions tend to bring out some harsh sentiments that way.<br />As for PSA feelings about prewar cards, I dare say that their grading isn't criticized a whole lot more vigorously than SGC, except for their labeling goofs, which call into question their ability to grade in the first place. That should be fair game, IMO.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>Howie</b><p>How does one glance at 20,000 cards and estimate that 40%-45% would receive 1/2 point or more upgrades if crossed over to a new service? If another service bid 50%-60% would it make them better? That shows an extreme amount of confidence in the quality and consistency they expect to find in their competitor's product. It also shows that a .5 increase in grade may not be all it's cracked out to be.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Well, they did grade most of my cards while they were at PSA.
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PSA discussion
Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>Jim, on the one hand, in a prior post, you appear to say PSA is the least reliable of the three grading services, very inaccurate, etc. etc. Yet by your own estimate GAI would agree that 97.9 percent of your PSA 8's are accurately graded -- 2 percent would grade higher and .1 percent or less would grade lower. That is an astonishing degree of accuracy for PSA, no? What am I missing here? Thanks in advance, PETER
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