That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>What is going on with Robert Edwards' T210 Jackson? Didn't Steve Verkman auction one of these off 2-3 years ago for about $5,000? Now it's $80,000 for one that PSA refused to grade. I know some people don't bid in Verkman's auctions, but geez what a difference.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>For being OUT of the Hobby during that Verkman auction!!!! $5k is a very SMALL amount for a T210 Jackson in any condition. The one in the Halper auction years ago sold for around $10k. The only good thing about your letting me know the cheap price of the Verkman example is that I cannot be setting around having had a chance at winning it and didn't.<br /><br />Personally, I would rather have a T210 Jackson than that Minor League Ruth that brought over $200k however. So, I guess it was a deal compared to that card in a sense.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>the jackson did go for more that i thought it would, my high bid was $20,000, i would have gone as high as $30,000, $80,000 is too rich for my blood, the REA jackson is the nicest of all the jackson's that have come up for auction, i will pay $17,000 for a beater, the series 8 cards went for $290 a piece, it seems t210's are getting hotter by each passing day!

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>What is the highest graded copy on the Jackson?

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>It wasn't graded Wally because the companies all thought it might be trimmed.<br /><br />It was slabbed as "authentic."<br /><br />That's what makes the final price even MORE remarkable.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Regardless of the cut, the card image and visual appeal are remarkable. I would rather have a AUTH card with such presentation than a SGC or PSA VG card with creases or image issues.<br /><br />Based upon the scan, the cut does appear to be vintage.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Does any body know what the actual highest graded copy is?

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p><br /> I checked the pop reports.....<br /><br />PSA has 2 cards in the 1-2 range and SGC list 0.<br /><br /><br /> Be well Brian

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Derek</b><p>So, what is the reason for the scarcity on this card? If it was issued the same as the other t210's, wouldnt it stand to reason that there are many out there? Or is this a tough series within the set?

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Zach</b><p>Don't know too much on the set but have heard and seen through prices that series 8 is the rarest and commands the highest prices.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Series 8 is much tougher than the rest......

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Brian,<br /> Where did you find it on the psa pop report, I had trouble locating it.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>series 8 cards are the most difficult to obtain from the t210 set, like REA stated in his auction which is true, every card in series 8 is rarer the t206 wagner, they just don't come up very often, there is not a known complete t210 set let alone a complete series 8 set, the series 8 cards in the REA auction were exceptionally much more difficult to obtain than most of the series 8 cards because they were chattanooga and birmingham players, that is another reason why the cards demanded so much money, i have never seen a chattanooga player ever hit ebay, so that should tell you something, i feel that the jackson is well worth $80,000, if it ever comes up again it will probably bring $100,000+, the jackson actually brought $92,800 with the juice!

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Are there any notable players in the T210 set besides Jackson and Stengel?<br /><br />

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>From my experience, every series besided 1,2, and 3 are difficult and I actually have seen the series 8 more than some of the others, but probably just because it hits the market more because of the Jackson card.<br /><br />This trimmed Jackson will probably do a lot for the sales of "authentic" cards in the future.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The other amazing thing about series 8 is that 47 of the 114 know players in the series made it to majors. This is a much higher percentage than an other series. Other names of note include Joe Berger, Gene & Lee DeMonterville and Frank Manush (Heinie's brother).<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I am almost certain there is one complete set of T210 in the hobby, and I can tell you that the winner of the T210 Jackson is extremely pleased with his purchase. He recognizes he has the finest known copy, and neither he nor I believe it was trimmed; it just presented too much of a problem for PSA to grade it. I feel it was simply poorly cut at the time of issue.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Barry:<br /><br />I agree with you 100% in that it was NOT trimmed.<br /><br />The grading companies are just wimps.<br /><br />I was bidding on the card up to a point, so it certainly was not just ONE crazy guy who thought the card had such significant value.<br /><br />Great photo on that card.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>"He recognizes he has the finest known copy, and neither he nor I believe it was trimmed; it just presented too much of a problem for PSA to grade it. I feel it was simply poorly cut at the time of issue."<br /><br />Agreed. The cut is vintage.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>the jackson is not trimmed and barry there is NOT a known complete set around, there's not even a complete series 8 set known to exist, i will put my money where my mouth is on that one!

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Hi Eric, how long have you been in the hobby? Dan

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'm pretty sure that the late Bill Haber completed the T210 set and it was purchased by a well known east coast collector. Some of you know who it is, but I'll respect his privacy on this board. But I think you might lose that bet.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Wp</b><p>Why would the card in the Vekman sale only sell for 5000? Does he not attract the same caliber of bidders as Robert Edward?

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>He probably doesn't, but the perception that REA's was the finest known copy brought out a whole different tier of bidders who would not have been interested in a lower grade example.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>i have been collecting since 1977, i have only been collecting t210's for a little over 3 years, 312 cards to date which includes the stengel, no jackson of course, the closest completed known set is a hair over 600 cards, i go by proof not hear say, barry i know that your a well respected dealer and a very nice person to deal with, i am not saying that your story is not true but i go by facts, i understand your policy for not wanting to reveal a persons identity but until there is proof that one does exist, it will always be debated, some say bigfoot and ufo's exist, show me the proof and i will show you the money!

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Art M.</b><p>I couldn't resist...<br /><br /><img src="http://members.aol.com/rebelsart2000/t210bf.jpg">

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Boy oh boy, Art...<br /><br />I haven't laughed that hard in a long time!!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Robert Cook</b><p>So Art, where's that T206 book?<br /><br />I couldn't resist... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>art, i can't stop laughing, i'm in tears, wow, now that's proof!, art would be getting paid right now if it was that "so called" completed t210 set he was showing!

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/110103_diving_prv.gif">

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Mark Macrae</b><p>In the summer of 1996, Mastro & Steinbach auctioned off the estate of legendary hobbyist Bill Haber. Included in this collection was a group of 640 different T-210 Old Mill cards, representing every different known player at the time, or now. The collection breakdown was 20% Execellent, 45% VG-Ex, 25% VG, 7% good, 3% lesser. The minimum bid was $4000. According to Sports Collectors Digest, who printed the results of the sale a few weeks later, the group sold for $13,801. I know the collector who purchased them and he still has them. Much like Barry Sloate, I will respect the privacy of the collector, but if push comes to shove, Barry & I will gladly accept your wager.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>HW</b><p>Yes, the complete set exists as I know who has it. I believe that Mastro auctioned it off 10 years ago or so. It was fairly low grade, but still complete.<br /><br />Here is a scan of another that I am aware of. It sure looks as though it is much larger than the REA example. The borders on the bottom and both sides look much larger.<br /><br /><img src="http://img60.echo.cx/img60/637/t210jackson6nx.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://img235.echo.cx/img235/6061/t210jackson25ng.jpg">

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Hate to say it, but that looks better than the REA copy.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>barry, it looks like i owe YOU and MARK some money, thanks again fellas, who says bigfoot doesn't exist!

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>REA Jackson is "TRIMMED" I know the current owner of the PSA 2 T210 Jackson and it is MUCH MUCH larger than REA's copy. Sorry to say Eric I too know of a complete T210 set.<br />

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>That other Jackson is much larger, and the coloring on the borders is much more vibrant. Maybe PSA knew what they were doing.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>I agree that the REA Jackson appears trimmed and if I had just spent all that money on it I would be a little upset by the comparison.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Douglas</b><p>The comparison between the two T210s is certainly compelling evidence that the REA "Authentic" once is trimmed. <br /><br />Doug

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Not to say it is or isn't trimmed...but with the slightly rounded corners what would the motive have been? I could see it being trimmed unscrupulously to make it better condition but, if this is a trim job, it didn't. I have seen many cards trimmed top to bottom to fit in sleeves but not too many from left to right. regards

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>david</b><p>it would be nice if most of the people who are strongly asserting the card is absolutely trimmed have actually seen the card in person and inspetcted the card.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>robert a</b><p>I'm definitely not a t210 expert by any means, but cards within the same series of the set have a lot of border variance. Some are skinny and some are fat. Some look painted on with squiggly border lines and some are a more faded color. <br /><br />The card does have a trimmed look, but I haven't seen it up close and the fact that the borders are small is not enough in a set that has tremendous variance to prove that it is trimmed.<br /><br />Although, if it was trimmed a long time ago, the corners could have rounded since.<br /><br />

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Ok look at REA's lot of series 8 T210's. I know they say they are not trimmed but come on just look at these cards. I know that if even one of these cards were in lets say a PSA or SGC number graded holder all we would be reading about is how PSA has graded bad again. Ok they night have been hand cut or trimmed a long time ago but that still dosen't change the fact they where not that way when they where pulled out of the cig boxes!!!! Plus these look a lot like the same cut as the series 8 Jackson. Do you think thay came for the same group <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> Yes they are very rare and worth every penny. But they are not they way you would have found they right out of the box. Boy PSA grades right and they get **** on for that as well.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Good Point, Snider4prez.<br /><br />People say that large auction houses get special treatment from PSA...<br /><br />but it sure would have been BETTER for that particular auction house to have the card GRADED rather than authenticated...<br /><br />so no favors were given in this instance.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>trevor, how many t210's do you have in your collection?, t210's are just like n172's, they just happen to come in different sizes and are sometimes miscut, cut at an angle, cut short, other times they appear to be handcut from a sheet, i love how all of these opinions come from people who don't even collect t210's, the jackson is rarer than the t206 wagner, t210's come in different sizes, i have some in sgc, psa and gai holders, all of the ones that are slabbed are shorter than some of my raw t210's, the REA jackson card is a beautiful specimen, yes it is shorter than the other jackson and the other jackson is nicer, but you cannot deny it's rarity and beauty, this is the holy grail of t210's and jackson cards!

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Eric,<br />Yes the Jackson is one of the greats in our hobby. I was involved with the sale of the PSA 2 Jackson as well as a complete T210 set. I know these cards very well. It sounds like you have great knowledge as well when it comes to T210's, but you said it best when you said many have been hand cut. That's what I'm trying to say the REA T210's where hand cut!!!! The size is not the issue the issue in the wavy cuts and I guess I will take back the size is not the issue thing because it doesn't help the cards to have wavy cuts and being shot at the same time. Was I there when these cards where made NO!!! Do I know the collector who could have cut these down NO!!! Just some common thought. Eric I'm sure you know far more than the average collector about T210's as I'm sure you love them as much as I love N172's but just admit you think these could be hand cut. Dose that take away from the REA Jackson being one of the coolest cards in world, NO WAY. That cards KICKS ASS. And is worth every penny!!!! But it is hand cut!!!

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>The grading companies also "think" that these "wavy" cards were also "hand-cut" long ago... but I could care less:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.lewisbaseballcards.com/classes/baseBallCard/images/888Lg.jpg"><br /><br /><img src="http://www.lewisbaseballcards.com/classes/baseBallCard/images/763Lg.jpg"><br /><br />As long as the cards are REAL... just like the T210 Jackson... then the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.<br /><br />Sure, a "hand-cut" Topps card from 1995 would be worthless...<br /><br />but a "hand-cut" card from the olden days is just something that happened every so often due to primative printing and cutting devices.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>Hal you said it!!!!! Buy what you like. I have many trimmed N172's of very tough cards some one of a kinds do I care NO!!!! I was just making the point that the card is TRIMMED. HAND CUT, what ever you would like the call it.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Trevor:<br /><br />The ONLY time I would be concerned about a vintage "hand-cut" card is when there is a possibility that it came from a poster of some type and was NOT originally printed to be cut as a card.<br /><br />This would NOT apply to the Jackson.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>The issue with the word "trimmed" is the connotation that someone tried to deceive and/or improve the condition of the card. <br /><br />I would argue that "hand cut" carries a completely different connotation to some people -- the cut is vintage and its purpose was not to deceive and/or improve condition.<br /><br />I don't know a thing about T210s. But I have many T212-1 cards that were hand cut in 1909. I don't consider them "trimmed" in the sense that the word is used in the hobby today. The cut is vintage and the cut's purpose wasn't to get a higher number on a slab to command more dollars.<br /><br />Given the connotation that "trimmed" carries, I would not say the REA Jackson is trimmed. I would say it appears to be hand cut. I would say there is a strong likelihood the cut is vintage and not intended to deceive a buyer by unfairly improving the condition.<br /><br />

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>Brian <br /><br />Sorry but hand cut is trimmed. I get your point we all hate people who try to rip ignorant people off for a quick buck, but we also hate people who massage words to make it sound better to hear. Sorry Hal I know you do that for a living <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> But lets get to it hand cut means someone went and cut these cards with there hands. So if I had a Pro Graded 11 Minty Mint T206 Cobb and cut it with same crappy tool that somebody did in 1911 to get the same result as a T206 hand cut scrap from 1911 it would make it a justified hand cut card to you? I don't get it however you say it, it's still the same thing.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Should be 'their' hands, not 'there' hands. This use of language isn't up for debate.<br /><br />No reason to be sorry. You believing something different than I do will not diminish the hobby at all -- for either of us.<br /><br />For my T212-1s, I will collect anything with a vintage cut -- even if PSA or SGC don't see it that way. I don't call it a vintage cut to make it seem better than it is. I call it a vintage cut because that is the more accurate term. I hope that you don't hate it that I make that distiction -- if you do, then so be it.<br /><br />There are people that use different words for their cards -- no big deal. I can agree to disagree. <br /><br /><br />A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square.<br />

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>regardless of your feeling of the card being discussed, handcut from a sheet 90+ years ago is NOT "trimmed" trimmed is taking an already produced card and reducing it's size to deceive someone. a handcut card is exactly that, a card that was cut from a sheet by hand with scissors. as many have mentioned, several issues are known for that characteristic.<br /><br />the card in question has obvious normal wear and comes from a well known and documented find in which all of the cards shared the same characteristics. it does not take a rocket scientist to determine that the cards are vintage and as originally found. would a full size square cut card have been more desirable? perhaps? but this particular card has excellent eye appeal, normal wear for the grade and more than a reasonable amount of examination that leads one to the common sense conclusion that is a genuine card with a different cutting process than normally used. <br /><br />i think most would agree they would much rather have this card than one creased in half or with back damage. and again most(almost every collector on this board) would consider it the centerpiece of his collection. as a barometer this is a card where probably 10-20 exist and that may be very optimistic. as a comparison the t206 wagner has at least 4 times that many and the average wagner(G+/-) pales in presentation to this card. <br /><br />scott<br /><br />

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>eric p.</b><p>i wish i was the proud owner of this extremely rare and elusive card of the legendary "shoeless" joe jackson!

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Bob Marquette</b><p>So is GAI now once again (on again off again on again off again) slabbing cards as "authentic" or did you get this dome a while back?<br />PSA refused to grade the T207 blank backs which sold on ebay and since SGC says they won't grade them, I am wondering exactly where the seller got his graded since he claims he had (at least) one of his graded. PSA refunded the money I sent in to have the T207 graded but refused to grade it. It says in the label "REFUND DO NOT GRADE NOHOLDER"

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>These were done a while back... and even then took some begging to get done.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>I spoke with the grading dept. at GAI yesterday (checking the status of my latest submission). Before hanging up, I thought of asking them the question of whether they still slab cards that are trimmed Authentic (since I remembered seeing some of Hal's scans). YES - they do! However, on the submission form (or a note included), you must state "Authenticate ONLY". Hope this helps you out.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>I captured both images and used Microsoft Digital Image Pro 10 to make the raw card image 50% transparent. I then lined up the raw card over the PSA 2 card and rezied proportionately until the images lined up. The Jackson images line up almost perfectly. I then separated them so you could see how the cards look proportionally. The PSA is very short top to bottom and has wavy, narrower side borders. Here is the resulting image (bear in mind that the Jackson images line up; the variance is strictly in the borders):<br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1115240367.JPG"> <br /><br />IMHO the PSA version is significantly trimmed.

That T210 Jackson
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>It was long ago established the REA version was smaller and "trimmed" (cut from a sheet, hand cut, etc possibly many decades ago) and therefore will never warrant a numerical grade.