Grading hits home
 

Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>Well normally, I choose to keep my nose out of threads having to do with grading controversies and ebay fraud, but I'm afraid that a blatant case of it hit home for me very recently. Please note that I do not intend for this post to be an attack on anyone, but it sure seems like someone has some explaining to do.<br /><br />In September, I traded my '14 CJ Johnson along with several other cards to Greg Schwartz. In my description of the card to Greg, I fully disclosed that I believed that the card was short, possibly trimmed. Also, the small hole above the "HN" in "Johnson" was duly noted. Here's a scan of the card as it looked before it left my hands:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1099430278.JPG"> <br /><br />Now this was all fine and good at this point. We were both content with the trade, and I thought that would be the end of it. But, on October 17th, this card was placed on ebay by a seller using the handle "mo.productions" :<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1099430291.JPG"> <br /><br />ebay link: <br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86837&item=5131978 625&rd=1" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86837&item=5131978 625&rd=1</a><br /><br />Having owned the card for a while, it was clear as day that this GAI card was in fact the same card I traded to Greg about a month earlier. How it got into a GAI holder is beyond me. But it is obvious that the card was altered at some point between the time it left my hands and the time it was listed on ebay. It is clear that the hole had been patched up, and that the card was possibly pressed out in some way (there was a wrinkle by Johnson's raised foot that is non existant on the graded card). Again, I'm not making any accusations or pointing any fingers, but I certainly believe that something fishy is going on here and that people need to know about it. Thanks.

Grading hits home
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>The card looks to have been professionally restored and then slabbed. This is a common practice among some dealers and auction houses. The restoration is so well done (there are a couple specialists in the area) that the card's alterations are usually never detected even by reputable grading services (wink, wink). <br /><br />It is a very touchy subject and most who utilize card restoration will not address the subject (including the identity of the restorers) at all, for fear they will be accused of deceiving their customers/bidders or have someone realize their "secret" and muscle in on their territory.

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Posted By: <b>Chris B.</b><p>GAI needs to explain why a card that is short and clearly had a hole repaired is sitting in one of their holders, plain and simple.

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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>Between this and the doctored Cobb, I'd be VERY hesitant to buy anything from BOTN ever, unless Greg comes up with an exceptionally compelling explanation to why this kind of stuff keeps happening...

Grading hits home
 

Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>See above. I already explained it. Those in a position to explain better than me are going to avoid this thread like the plague. Card restoration and its undocumented prevailing existence in the vintage card hobby is a taboo subject.

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Posted By: <b>Chris B.</b><p>No offense Aaron, but I think Greg, "mo.productions" and GAI need to explain this. Someone spent $511 on a card that is not what it is represented to be.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Have you turned the matter over to the authorities yet? Any idea who the seller is or where he is located? Did you email the winning bidder with the information? <br /><br />I would drop the evidence in the lap of the FBI and postal inspector--I think the San Diego FBI field office handled operation foul ball and may be the right ones to give this to. You could also look for the WIWAG case and see what office handled it; they should be eager for another go-round. Finally, have you sent this information to GAI yet? They may want to investigate the situation themselves; Steve Rocchi is pretty good about responding to inquiries. <br /><br />I have no idea who the seller is, but they appear to be in Los Angeles, so I took the liberty of emailing them with notice of this string and asked them to have a look at it. <br /><br />This sort of stuff just makes me sick...

Grading hits home
 

Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>I don't see "restoration" done on this card, certainly not like what happened to the E95 Cobb. An obvious pinhole has been made only slightly less obvious: this could be done with your finger by pushing the paper back in place if it still remained on the back. I've done it myself more than once. None of the other identifying marks on the cards have been removed.<br /><br />If the card is short (and it looks like it <i>might</i> be), then it's on GAI to explain why they graded it. <br /><br />Sometimes cards come back with grades that are unexpectedly good. Isn't that what happened here?<br /><br />Bill

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Posted By: <b>Chris B.</b><p>thats a pretty skillful looking thumb-push repair, and there has been a wrinkle near Johnson's raised foot that is no longer there.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>will see what happens...

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Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>My point is that you and I can see it easily and we're looking at a scan of the card through a piece of plastic, while the Cobb had a tear expertly removed. Apples and oranges on the restoration scale.<br /><br />"Going to the authorities" seems like a huge overreaction, in my opinion.<br /><br />Bill

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>...since I don't want to stir up the hornet's nest again, but I don't think Greg would have issue with my comments.<br /><br />First, I agree with Bill that this is a minor job compared to that other card we discussed. It's tough to tell if the hole was simply pushed "back together", which would be fine, or if something more was done - can't tell from the scan.<br /><br />Is it okay to press out wrinkles? It's been a while since we've had that discussion.<br /><br />I was reading Lew Lipset's Old Judge compilation and found several items about restoration. One that was particularly interesting was about a guy who restored Goudeys and t206s, building up the corners to NM using paper from cards from the same issue - when tested under a black light nothing was revealed! If this was possible in the mid-80s, I'm sure it would be easy enough to patch up a hole in a Cracker Jack using card material from a common.<br />

Grading hits home
 

Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>as i didn't catch it wasn't greg (or so it seems) that was selling this on ebay - it could just be coincidence that it was sold to him and then it appears on ebay being sold by someone else after apparent restoration, but it is more than a bit suspicious

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>All that was done was a drop of water was added to the pinhole and the paper pushed back down. The hole is still evident as are the other surface issues. The wrinkle on the side was there too in grading. No paper or paint was added to the card. <br /><br />I did send the card in for grading and two graders who looked at the card felt it was ok. The card was measured and inspected by both graders. I mentioned that I thought the card was trimmed and expected it to go into a holder labeled Authentic. They were confident the card was not trimmed.<br /><br />The card was then wholesaled at a local card show. What Ben fails to mention is that in our trade we valued the card at either $350 or $400. The card was sold by me for less than that and sold on ebay for just over the value we had established.<br /><br />Hate to say it guys but professional grading has changed. Just the other day a regular poster mentioned a 52 Mantle that he glued back together that is now sitting in an SGC 30 holder. Nobody seemed to have any issue with that. Nor with another regular poster's open discussion of the removal process he uses on his cards. I think that grading services are taking into account some processes that you refer to as "restoration." <br /><br />Greg<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dennis W.</b><p>What is generally accepted as ethical treatment of cards? I know that myself and others here commonly remove glue/scrapbook residue from the backs of cards by soaking. A by-product of soaking is that it also cleans the card. Is that ethical? (I know - a huge can of worms) Another factor could be the financial status of GAI. Are they in a financial position to turn away a potential regular customer/dealer by rejecting a vintage card knowing that that same dealer would likely turn to a different grader? With market share at a premium and GAI generally accepted as the #3 company behind PSA and SGC would they relax their standards to enhance their bottom-line? <br /><br />Is grading a card that has a hole pushed back in with some water to help ethical? I don't know any of the parties involved but I do know there are many more problems plagueing our hobby other than this - especially ebay fraud. I also know that I've been asked to not initiate threads on that subject although it's common for long-time board participants to start threads on any off-topic threads they want. BOTN - I agree there sometimes seems to be a double standard.

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Posted By: <b>Ben</b><p>Greg, I appreciate your response. Quite honestly, I was shocked to see that card in a slab when I first came across the auction, and still believe it does not belong in one. But I do think this says more about questionable grading standards over at GAI than it does about any of your actions. The right edge seemed clearly trimmed to me since the first time I saw it, possibly the bottom edge too. I was very, very surprised when I read in your post that several graders at GAI thought the card was good. But hey - I could be wrong.<br /><br />Regarding alterations, I guess you're right...it just comes down to what one qualifies as an alteration. Cards that have been soaked, glued, rebuilt, pressed, and trimmed consistently make it into the holders of at least two of the three major grading companies for prewar cards. It just aint right. I try to skirt the issue by focusing on raw fr/gd-vg/ex cards, because they are far less likely to be altered than higher grade cards in slabs. But if you say that the hole on that card was covered up simply by pushing back excess paper, then I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Never occured to me the entire time I owned it. Anyways, I sorta feel a bit bad for swinging the spotlight back on Greg again, because my dealings with him up until now have always run smoothly. And I surely don't want another albatross thread like the infamous e95 Cobb or OJ Kelly threads.

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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>i guess it would stand to reason that if this card had been professionally restored, they could have done a lot more to take out other imperfections still evident. the doctored cobb for example looks like it had significant work to it, and if as greg says a drop of water was added and it pushed down (although i still don't know what happened to the crease under his foot - maybe it just doesn't show up on the slabbed scan) then maybe that's not so bad - nothing was really being added to the card and gai thought it worthy to grade - maybe (speaking for myself) i overreacted on this one.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Now that the collecting public is becoming aware that cards are being altered and subsequently undetected when sent to grading services, isn't it time to question why so much trust is placed in graded cards? Everyone sends cards in to be graded because they assume it means a seemless transaction will ensue, but now it is clear that even third party grading can no longer be considered the last word. What is the answer to this? Does every card in existence still need to be sent to a professional service? Will the hobby ever shift back to a time when experienced and ethical dealers can grade their own cards and collectors will readily accept them? To my knowledge, a substantial percentage of high end graded cards have had creases ironed out or other work done to them, and I'm talking about cards that eventually sold for five and even six figures. What do collectors feel now that their treasured collectibles, even those slabbed, may not be what they are supposed to be? This is a giant can of worms, the repercussions which we have not yet fully absorbed.

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>If I remember looking at comic grading, don't the comic grading companies offer slabbed comic in restored grades? As a person who has had many dust jackets restored for my own personal collection, there are many situations in which I would prefer to have a card or other ephemera restored for my own sense of personal aesthetics. <br /><br />The problem is when the restoration is not disclosed to a subsequent purchaser. Wouldn't restored grading deal in part with this, and allow the marketplace to adjust to the taboo? I realize this wouldn't eliminate the problem for those who wish to use professional restoration services to deceive, but it might otherwise give the honest person some market value in their restored slabbed card? How have the grading companies reacted in the past to such a suggestion?<br /><br />Max (preferring his books and his few cards to remain unslabbed)

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Barry, you are an icon in the hobby but DAH! When you have people grading pre-war cards that do not have a clue of what they are looking at, then this will happen. Has any of the Old Timers been approached to be hired by these grading companies???? Have you Barry, or Jerry Smolin or a John Ramierez or Lew Lipset or a Rob Lifson or anyone who has been in this hobby for 30 years and knows what they are looking at??? NO! College kids and young punks who have never seen a D304 or a Texas Tommy (who did he play for) are the ones grading your rare pre-war cards. Now these people are fine for the shiny **** but a knowledgable card person should be grading the pre-war stuff. I submitted a Honey boy that was Near Mint but since they were made on poor quality paper and the paper showed imperfections I received a 4. FUNNY! Grading is a JOKE! Grading is a CANCER! Educate yourself with what you are buying and don't rely on some punk that couldn't even recognize the issue if you didn't identify it on your submittal form. ok, I feel better now. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree with you Dan and I know that many of the graders are young kids who are being taught how to grade on the fly. But my question is: Why is the hobby a total slave to what these graders say? You know that the hobby today forces everyone to send their cards in. Could you imagine trying to get top dollar on NR MT/MT cards without getting them graded? You would get less than fifty cents on the dollar for them. And no, no one has ever approached me to grade cards, but you know what, I make mistakes too. I miss things such as imperceptible trims or tiny creases, I think we all do. But the grading services make the same mistakes too. The only difference is they don't own the cards and are not selling them, so the theory is they don't have the same bias that a seller might have. That is fine, but the opinion of any grader, whether selling cards from inventory or working for PSA or SGC, is just that, an an opinion, nothing more. But if it is my opinion versus their opinion, I will lose every time, and I know that. It may not be right, but there is nothing I can do. I am forced to send all my cards in to be graded, because the system tells me that is the only way I can get full value for them. It is a deeply flawed system, but what can be done? And I appreciate you calling me a hobby icon, but I'm just a guy who's been selling baseball cards for a long time. But thanks for the kind words.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>that the changes made to this card are MINIMAL? And not worthy of comment? And that GAI should have graded it a 3?<br /><br />What planet is this?

Grading hits home
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Well Barry, you are an icon to dad and I. Anyway, you are absolutely correct! Though I think the new INVESTORS not necessarily collectors, have supported this pathetic change. People (and I will be nice here) are buying the grade or number on the slab instead of the card, that is the problem. I watched Bill Huggins pull a 1963 topps common out of his $4 binder and have it slabbed at the PSA booth in Chantilly some years back. It came back a 9 and he sold it at his table for $400. Now I don't care what that card slabbed at, a 1963 common is worth $4 no matter what. I just hope that one day, the bottom drops out of this pathetic course and the morons carrying around the 9's and 10's they paid a thousand times more than they are worth, become only what the card is worth again.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>First of all I don't really want to get into a 189 post-thread about who did what. The top card, not in the holder, is larger than the bottom one, scanwise. That will make it show some imperfections a little better. To me the bottom one is a little darker than the top one which makes it look a little better too. Having said those things it looks like the pinhole was dealt with very nicely. If nothing was added so be it. It looks "cleaner" in the holder too. There are a couple of spots that don't look as bad on the card in the holder as opposed to the one without. Who knows? <br /><br />On the slabbed issue my stance is that the grade/authentication is only as good as the folks performing the service. I know each of the 2-4 graders at SGC. I have known them for about the last 4 years or so. I respect their work even though I don't always agree with it. The percentage of outright mistakes made on vintage cards is far fewer with their company than either of the other big 2. Of course they will make mistakes but if I am buying a card I would rather have one of them "guaranteeing" it than not. I know of folks that want all of their high end cards graded and I think it makes sense. Not because I have a few high grade cards myself but because I want a "good" 3rd party, and as ya'll said, unbiased opinion. It just makes sense to want this added protection...but only if that protection is trustworthy......and I could break all of my slabs tomorrow ....the cards would still be the same. I know of one collector who get's them slabbed then takes a picture and cracks 'em out....

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Posted By: <b>823dek</b><p>I didn't bid on this card, cause it looked short at the bottom . As a collector , I must like the look of the overall card. The borders are to me the most important and the size just didnt look good to me. The corners looked fine and the "BIG POOP" stain on the card is tolerable. The fact that paper was pushed down and water to help it , may not be an issue, but if the card is trimmed and graded...ugh !<br /><br />I have heard that some cards may have been trimmed yrs ago and the aging created a<br />somewhat undetectable perforation ,perhaps. It is still my theory that many pre war and some post cards that get passed as 10 and 20's or 1 or 2's were trimmed sorta corner snipped like and the aging created the perforations. I will not buy severely rounded corners, cause for the umpteenth time ,explain to me where the hell the paper loss goes...if it not trimmed!...you can't !<br /><br />Have of my collection is graded, goes back to what is acceptable to you.<br /><br />Cards are graded for money, ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY !!!!! GRADED CARDS BRING MORE MONEY !!!!<br /><br />If you are skeptical of a card, leave it alone and move on to something else. <br /><br /> Good evening<br /> - Dan Koteles<br />

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Dan well put! I agree with you completely. How long have you been collecting? Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Dennis W.</b><p>15 or so years ago the hobby changed permanantly and for the worse. The market was flooded with worthless cardboard and the dealers changed. They changed from friendly helpful guys/gals that enjoyed trading and chatting with their customers to guys/gals that became desperate for profitibility and a way to stay in business. Some are still as friendly as ever but are they in business for fun or for a living? When someone's living is in jeopardy some people make bad/dishonest decisions. That's the nature of business. Then the mighty Internet came into being. People were now buying cards from faceless dealers. The same dealers that they had already lost faith in. The need for a a third party "unbiased" evaluater became apparant. The ability to ultrasonically seal a card between 2 slabs of plastic evidently was the primary prerequisite for that need.<br /><br />I think it's obvious that there are numerous folks on this board that are more qualified to grade pre-war cards than the graders. The graders know that and that's why they lurk this board so much. This board carries clout. Let's not screw that up.

Grading hits home
 

Posted By: <b>823dek</b><p>Dan.McKee- Hello again ! Collecting since 68 and prewar since 87, wow do the years go by and the wants... SURE DO CHANGE !!! <br /><br />Waiting for some good stuff again from you ! Thanks Dan

Grading hits home
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Let's not screw that up?? If you are referring to me than all I can say is that I and only I am responsible for my words. I am complete, regular issue sets from 1920 to 1990. I have about 6 slabbed cards, one is my 1952 topps Mantle that was in 2 pieces and I elmers glued it together. It is now professionally slabbed. Let me repeat myself, GRADING IS A CANCER!!!

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Cool dan! enjoyed the transaction. Unfortunately, most of the good stuff I sell is consigned, I am a hoarder!! Dan

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Posted By: <b>Dennis W.</b><p>My comment "let's not screw that up" was not directed at anyone just merely a maybe poorly worded suggestion that as long as this board maintains it's credibility it carries a significant amount of clout in pre-war collecting and trends - especially where grading companies are concerned. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

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Posted By: <b>Mark M.</b><p>I buy most of my vintage cards on ebay and have been buying pre-war cards for just a few years. Aside from posting a link on this forum or looking to see if a card says "Dover," I do not know how to tell an original from a reprint for most types of issues. I once bought an n162 Anson that turned out to be fake - but since it was the first n162 I had seen, I had no idea what type of font, paper, etc. an original would have. So I can either (i) buy only graded cards or (ii) buy ungraded cards and be unsure whether they are real or not. And let me tell you, it's a rather uneasy feeling to pay $1000+ to get a card that may or may not be real. And there are many new collectors/investors of people like me. Hence, the demand and need to grading companies.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Hey no problem Dennis, I am just venting. Mark, there are several fake cards that are graded. Though your method may be percentage wise better, it is far from fool proof. I have seen several fake fro-joy cards that are slabbed. How about the poor bastard buying those junkers???

Grading hits home
 

Posted By: <b>Dennis W.</b><p>Dan, let me repeat myself - Dealers and the Internet established the need for third-party evaluators. They didn't elbow their way in they filled a need. I never said I was in favor of them but like it or not they're here to stay.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>They may be here to stay but a knowledgable collector has a choice not to use them. Is there any market for the hundreds of broken slabs I have?? You can take those pop reports and wipe your rump with them. They are all wet!

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Speaking of fakes being graded, isn't there some shiny McGwire card that has a graded population report higher than what was actually printed?? What a bunch of idiots!

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Leon, how long have you been collecting? I rest my case. Newly entered collectors/investors will go the slabbed route because that is the way it is now. I would guess, and could be wrong, but if you polled the people who have been collecting 30 years plus, I would say most are not impressed with the slab craze. Dan.<br><br><br />I am done, sorry if I fired anyone up. Good night all and please enjoy the D304 ad piece, it is one of my favorites. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>How does a card with a hole even get a grade of 2? If the rest of the card is MInt I still don't think it can receive a grade a Good. The grade itself is a joke.<br /><br />It was brought up that in the past you could go to a card shop and talk to the dealer and get information and they were quite friendly. Well as a person that ran a card store from 1988-1992 (the end of the hay days in the hobby). It is fine to talk to your customers but if no one is buying it tends to turn the dealer sour and eventually out of business. We had a great run for 4 years, but got out at a good time, too many talkers and not enough buyers. I loved the job (hated the new cards) and the people but if you are not making any money you can't stay in business.<br /><br />The internet is made out to be this great evil in the hobby but what it has done is create an arena to be able to actually collect vintage cards at a price that is more reflective of the market and not what the price guide or some dealer this the price should be. I would have NEVER been able to get close to completeing a T202 and T206 without the internet, very few vintage cards were around the shows in Minnesota. I think that selling graded cards on the internet prior to scanners was the way you almost had to use to sell your cards but now that scanners and cameras are so good that the need is no longer there to get a card slabbed just to sell your cards.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>at least one guy writes and offers to buy it. None of them are slabbed. Is slabbed. <br /><br />Eleven thirty. Home from the collection point. Timne for some single malt scotch. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>hankron</b><p>Dan, you may have been thinking about the 1995-6 Finest Hockey Gold Refractor Jaromir Jagr. Topps advertised that they produced fewer than 150 of the cards. The problem being that a Jagr fan accumulated 159 of them!

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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>"Newly entered collectors/investors will go the slabbed route because that is the way it is now."<br /><br />I don't know about that. I might be an unusual case in that I collected cards (including some vintage cards) when I was younger, but got out of it at age 16, and now here I am 19 years later back into it. Maybe that wouldn't qualify me strictly as a "newly entered collector/investor," but I have little interest so far in slabbed cards. I have TWO slabbed cards that I have almost by coincidence, and I have never submitted, nor do I have plans to submit any of my vintage cards for slabbing. If I was doing it for investment, that's one thing, but so far I'm collecting just for the love of doing it. There's something about taking a nice card and forever incasing it in plastic that seems kind of cold to me. Oh sure, I could sell it for more, but I can never touch or smell the card again. It's almost like the boy in the plastic bubble. You can see him, you can talk to him, you can even hug him through plastic, but it's just missing something, you know? <br /><br />This is my problem with buying cards through the internet. Don't get me wrong, most all my purchases are through the internet as I have no choice - card shows around where I live are few and far between, and even then there is little selection of pre-war cards, and when there is it tends to be too pricey. The VERY few card stores that are within comfortable driving distances have very litle in the way of pre-war cards, and their prices are just astronomical, totallly out of touch with reality. I passionately miss being able to see a card in person, talk to the person selling it about the card and then buying it, but how can I justify spending $70 on a card that I know goes on ebay regularly for $15-$25? The card is right in front of me, it looks great, I can even hold the thing, but how can I in my right mind spend the money on it? Indeed the hobby has changed dramatically - some for the worse (can almost never buy a card in person, card grading), some for the better (hard to find cards are accessible at much more reasonable prices) - you win some, you lose some...

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think someone on this thread touched on an important point when he said he bought his first N162 card, an Anson, and it turned out to be a fake. He felt at a loss because it was the first N162 he had ever seen. I think there is an important service that would be incredibly useful- one that both authenticates cards and looks closely at real cards for tampering. That would benefit and protect evryone. But grading is a completely different issue. A card is either 100% real or 100% fake, so authenticating a card could conceivably be an exact science and save collectors much grief. But a grade is always an opinion, and not necessarily the right one. I think an authentication service is badly needed, a grading service less so. I think we can all learn to grade cards, and the veteran collectors and dealers know about as much as anyone. Yes, unscrupulous dealers always tend to overgrade, but this will catch up with them and in time they will either improve their skills or their business will suffer.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p><br /><br />Certainly the most valuable information in card evaluation is the authenticity of the card and identification of the degree of modification the card has undergone to yield its present state.<br /><br />However, also valuable is the opinion of a third party on the present condition of the card. This opinion is useful in minimizing overestimates by sellers. Unfortunately, our hobby typically places too much emphasis on the opinion of third party graders. I believe that the degree of emphasis on their opinion is "too much" because I do not agree with the criteria being employed by these third parties, the weighting of their evaluation parameters, nor their overall approach to the grading of baseball cards.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Forrest</b><p>But it seems like a lot of "new collectors" want to jump right into the high-dollar items, and that's just not wise. I spent a full year buying and selling inexpensive vintage cards before I ever spent more than $200 on any single item. I held, smelled, and cataloged every card I purchased, comparing characteristics of each issue, comparing similarities in printing, lithography, cuts, etc., between issues, reading hobby publications and card boards, and exchanging calls and emails with other collectors. So when I hear about someone like the Anson purchaser you describe, well...his "sink or swim" technique obviously didn't work.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Scott, what you did and what everyone should do is teach themselves the business, and there is nothing wrong with a beginner buying a few inexpensive cards and if he gets burned, he learns a quick lesson. Just chalk it up to the cost of learning what's what. But too many people do jump in spending too much money before they learn anything, and they are led to believe that if they are buying slabbed cards they have nothing to worry about. Of course, there is yet another problem in that these neophytes are often badly overcharged and lose out anyway, but that touches on a completely different issue. I've always said that graded cards solve some problems but create a set of new ones. People are badly taken advantage of under the guise of: "if you buy a slabbed card, you are buying insurance against fraud." But what they don't get is insurance against price gouging. What it boils down to is Scott's original point- teach yourself the business, learn to make your own decisions. That's how I started and everything I know I learned myself, sometimes the hard way. When new investors jump into the hobby and start buying up all these overpriced slabbed cards, I think they are missing out on the learning experience.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"So when I hear about someone like the Anson purchaser you describe, well...his "sink or swim" technique obviously didn't work."<br /><br />Scott - the thing is, most people new into vintage collecting just aren't aware of the huge scam problem and people selling fake cards as authentic. What brought me back to card collecting awhile back was someone selling a Cobb and a Ruth strip card for what to me seemed like a great deal. I had already agreed on a price with the person, but wisely decided to do some more research before handing over my cash which led me to this board. I was quickly told they were undoubtedly fakes, and of course now I would know by looking at the scans of them for a 1/4 of a second they were fake, but it took me awhile to build up my knowledge to recognize this. <br /><br />It's all well and good to warn people to start slow, but people either don't find that warning at first or are hesitant to believe that the person is ripping them off (after all, who wants to believe THAT?) - sometimes it just happens that a person gets ripped off before they know enough to find the right information that would have prevented it happening. It could even happen to a veteran, though it's FAR less likely - still with ebay you never know unless you're ALWAYS dealing with an established long-term seller, but honestly, if it was limited to just those people, it would be very limiting, at least for someone like me who doesn't buy very high dollar items.<br /><br />Barry also has a point about newbies getting overcharged - I can say from being somewhat of a newbie, and a year ago being much more so, that I would guess most newbies are bound to get burned, or at least overcharged, unless they're willing to do a great deal of research before purchasing anything, and generally the level of enthusiasm that leads one into buying something like that for the first time will outweigh patience, especially if you're talking about $50-$250 - it's not like a person is buying a house here.<br /><br />The issue of cards being tampered with adds yet another wrinkle that is obviously a tough one to ferret out even for qualified professionals - take the doctored cobb that was independently graded by the 3 major companies - if it's being done so well that it fools experts (although of course it could be argued that there are more expert experts than at the grading companies), then how does one REALLY know what they're dealing with ever? What can we do but proceed cuatiously, at least rely on our own personal integrity in what WE do and hope for the best understanding there are many pitfalls out there to watch for?

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Posted By: <b>Darren J. Duet MD</b><p>Grading is a virus and collector's are the host. Look to its evolution and you'll see it kill it self by destroying its host(in the sense that we'll find a cure -- old school collecting). I know many you are prominent dealers and gurus of the HOBBY and business and I have grown to respect many of you. I have been active in this hobby since the age of 5 and I am 34 now. There are many of us out there that you guys know little about yet we know a great deal about cards and the card business. I long for the time when you actually held and examined a raw card and made your own decision on condition and value.<br /><br />I give credit to internet sales for expanding the market and allowing me to have access to cards I would have traveled far and wide to find. BUT I am sickened now by this virus and soon it will be cleared from my system.<br /><br />Thank you to all the honest dealers, you have a friend in me.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>It is my understanding that if a new collector follows this board's tips, he will come out with a genuine card 99% of the time. <br /><br />Similarly, anyone who does not research the price of a card before bidding on it is subject to potential overpaying. <br /><br />The above two sentences simply point out that good judgement and research are applicable to the effective purchase of baseball cards, just like the purchase of anything else.

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Posted By: <b>Bryan</b><p>I will be the first one to admit that I LIKE graded cards. I know, I know the hate mails can start now. But let me say that I also collect cards because I love them and not for investment even though I have asked the dreaded "investment" question in past threads. Most of the cards that I own are graded, and most of them are graded a 1. I buy graded cards for a couple of reasons. <br />1. They look better - to me anyways. especially SGC graded cards.<br />2. I have no choice but to put my trust into a few selected grading companies. We all know that the internet has forever changed the way this hobby will be. It is almost impossible, for me, to tell certain things about a card just by looking at a picture of it on my computer screen. I need to feel the card, smell the card, and just plain have that first reaction to something when you see it in person. But, that is impossible for me because the internet is the only option that I have for finding the cards that I want because you just can't go down the street in the small town that I live and pick a couple t204 HOFers or anything like it. Grading companies are always going to have their troubles and everyone is not going to be happy all the time. I do not have the expertise of many of the collectors of this board do but I feel that I fall into the "normal" collector level on the scale. <br />I was speaking to collector friend of mine not to long along and he mentioned that he has a collector from North Dakota that will fly down to him from time to time just to sell him high dollar cards that he picks up. He rarely buys cards off the internet - he doesn't have to! His cards are brought to him and he has the money to pay for them. I don't. <br />I realize that I may have dropped off the subject a tad, but I think that beginners and "old timers" rely in some ways what a third party grader has to say whether or not they want to make a profit.<br />Just my 2 cents.

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Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Bryan, you shouldn't get any hate emails. You have very valid points and it is your right to prefer graded cards. I must agree with you, an SGC card has by far the best looking presentation. Leon has made valid points to me on the phone, with the internet and the large hike in value, a 3rd party service can help weed out the doctored cards. I must agree with that in general, though they won't always be perfect, they have probably seen just about every type of alteration that you can imagine. I like Barry's idea of no number assigned. Dan.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I really like the SGC "presentation", and since I'm not a set collector, it also helps makes a bunch of cool cards that look nothing alike, look like they sort of go together...and the slab protects them.<br /><br />When I first started collecting I didn't even consider slabbed cards, because I thought it was stupid - I wanted to be able to hold my cards and look at them with nothing in the way. I understand your points about newbies thinking the slab ensures the product is legitimate - I never had to deal with that issue until later so I didn't consider it.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>Would be great. Never happen.<br /><br />It seems to me that a beginning collector IS likely to start out buying cheaper cards. Why should the idea enter his head to suddenly spend a K on a piece of cardboard? The other things he spends that kind of money on still crowd his consciousness--another hobby, stocks, a vacation, a present for someone. I'm suspicious of people who jump in with both feet and then moan because their 5K Cobb is a fake...<br /><br />"I could" "care" a lot "less"!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>In the end if people like their cards slabbed, there's nothing really wrong with it. Ultimately, every card in the hobby will one day be slabbed, and there will be no raw cards left. Maybe it's not my favorite part of the hobby, and I think we all agree there are definitely problems with it, but I suppose if that's what collectors like, then there is a need for it. There will probably be other changes down the road that we don't anticipate even today, and with ebay, it's clearly too dangerous to buy raw cards from nameless and faceless dealers who may be selling out of the back of a station wagon with a laptop, so I guess they serve a useful purpose.<br /> Just a quick question: for those collectors who own thousands of cards, and consequently thousands of slabs, how do you store/display them? I recall years ago having my T205/T206 sets all fit in plastic pages in one binder. Do today's collectors have these sets in 800 slabs? You would need a flatbed just to move them around the house.

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Posted By: <b>Mark M.</b><p>I might still think the card was real today if I hadn't sent it in to SGC who informed me it was counterfeit. In other words, if not for a grading company, I would not have even known to press the seller for my money back.<br /><br />I have bought a lot of vintage cards by now, but I simply do not trust myself to be able to tell a counterfeit from a legit card in person, let alone over the internet. I certainly would not be able to tell a trimmed or altered card on the internet. I'm not in "the business" (and I work 60 hours a week which leaves little time to apprentice under a bb card dealer), so I'm not going to be handling lots of n162s and Texas Tommys and learning about vintage cards on the job. Rather I'm an attorney trying to collect all the HOFers and the last thing I want it to toss and turn, wondering if my n28 Comiskey is real or not, or whether it has a nasty "paper wrinkle" that I can't detect because I do not own a microscope or infrared lighting.<br /><br />I could be mistaken, but I think with the advent of the internet, there are many new collectors/investors who, like myself, cannot tell based on a scan whether a rare card type is authentic. I would likely stop collecting tomorrow though if grading companies did not exist because it's gut-wrenching to think you might have spent $1k on a reprint.

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Posted By: <b>Mark M.</b><p>"I'm suspicious of people who jump in with both feet and then moan because their 5K Cobb is a fake..."<br /><br />Julie: I'm not sure what you're "suspicious" of. I can tell you that, in my case, I jumped in with both feet when I got out of law school, found I had ample discretionary income to purchase baseball cards, a hobby I had while growing up, as well as stocks and vacations. It also seems with ebay and the internet, that the dealer mark-up is no longer so dramatic - I remember when price guides reflected both a "buy" price and a "sell" price, and any card one bought from a dealer could only be sold back for half as much - this fact makes spending thousands of dollars on cards less foolish in my mind, not that I have any immediate plans to sell my cards. <br /><br />Yes, I did moan (and even groan) when I learned the $1k+ Anson was a fake. But that's precisely my point - I buy even rarer cards today and, because they are slabbed, no more moaning!<br />

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>???<br /><br />O.K. So I started out fairly poor, and didn't have any hobby experience. But maybe, even if you have the dough, you should start out slow. If you follow the often repeated dictum of buying the card, not the holder, I guess you're safe enough..but the cards I've bought graded, I don't reslly feel I KNOW them till I've liberated them...and somewtimes, the encounter is not as pleasant as I thought it would be! (You buy on the internet, you KNOW you don't know what you're going to get, since every scan can tell a thoudsand lies.)

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>if you had the ability yourself to tell if a card was fake. I quit collecting '34 Goudeys because I never trusted anything I got in the mail. Now I'm more confident and might start collecting them again. It is really no fun whatsoever to get an item and have doubts as to its authenticity - I have had cards that I wasn't sure were real, so I sent them to a grading company and they were slabbed...I'm still not sure. <br /><br />But I don't understand your buying an Anson, just because you had the money. If I became wealthy right now, I would definitely want a Mantle rookie. But I wouldn't buy one, the reason being that I have never collected '50s cards and wouldn't have a clue if it was legit or had been trimmed. Actually, I have enough contacts that I could buy a legitimate one easy enough, but if I was a newbie - no way. I'd buy some commons first - cheap, beat-up ones that a seller would have had no incentive to alter or fake. Then I'd buy some nicer condition ones, similar to what I was looking for in a Mantle. I'd loupe the hell out of them, then I'd ask some questions of other collectors, like: "Is this card commonly reprinted?" "Does this issue vary much in size?", etc.

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Posted By: <b>Dr. Koos</b><p>"No, Scott - Mantle rookies are rarely reprinted, and size varies greatly...I have one for you, and it's slabbed."<br /><br />(above is runscott trying to be funny, and is in no way meant to be taken as a re-entry of the real Dr. Koos to this forum)

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p>Personally I have no interest in becoming an expert in authentication. That is what third party grading/respectible dealers are for. You pay them for their knowledge and expertise. I really don't get the whole start off slow and learn how to authenticate for yourself bit. Why waste that time when you can pay a professional to do it? We all get sick often enough, but not many of us have been to medical school and can write our own prescriptions. I myself don't have the time or desire to learn how to authenticate all the issues I am interested in. That is why I pay someone else to do it.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>think about it

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>...but cards aren't medical perscriptioins. I have a small (75 items) 19th century collection, and not one of them is slabbed. Like all the rest of my cards.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I agree that they SHOULD be experts...the problem is that they aren't. If pharmacies ran their operations the way the grading companies do, there's no telling what we'd get in our prescription bottles - might be fun.<br /><br />And as others have pointed out, a problem is that newbies THINK the grading companies employee people who know more than the average collector, but I think the exact opposite is true.

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Posted By: <b>dstudeba</b><p>I understand there is an anti-grading contingent and that is fine. I have plenty of cards that I have no intention of grading. I just don't understand the "You shouldn't buy a Mantle Rookie you want until you can authenticate it yourself" <br /><br />Sorry my analogy didn't work for you, maybe stocks and investment advisor is better. <br /><br />Unfortunately like stocks, there are plenty of strange things going on that you only learn after being in the hobby a while. I learn things every day, and realize there are more shortcomings of grading companies than I knew of when I started. This website has been especially helpful in that regard. Fortunately I am interested in cards that most folks wouldn't take the time to reprint!<br /><br />edited to account for runscott's reply

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>It's good you can afford the consequences of relying on non-experts to certify your purchases - many people (such as myself) simply can't afford to eat a fake Anson. And I hope you aren't serious about feeling more comfortable with the grading companies' certification of more obscure high-dollar stuff - no, they aren't all reprinted, but some of them ARE forged...and there is even MORE incentive to alter or restore expensive cards.<br /><br />In all seriousness, it is your money and your decision to spend as much time as you desire educating yourself about the cards you buy. That's a lot of the fun for me.

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Posted By: <b>Pcelli60</b><p>Livin on reds, vitamin C and Old Judge....

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Posted By: <b>Mark Holt</b><p>Just about everything that can be said has been said on this string but what the heck, I'll throw my 2 cents in. I've collected since 1959. I have a good mix of T206 to 1994 baseball and plenty of other sports cards. Most of my stuff is 'raw' and when grading started I thought it was ridiculous. Now I'm in the process of getting my T206s, Diamond Stars, C55 Hockey, and other old sets graded.<br /><br />Why? <br />1. Because there are no card stores near me. Buying on eBay is the only way I'll expand my collection at what I believe are reasonable prices. No offense to dealers reading this but thanks to eBay I don't have to pay your overhead any more. There are a batch of eBay resellers I trust and I buy raw cards from them. But I'll buy graded cards from anyone with decent feedback. There are millions of graded cards from the top three services and while the grade itself is subjective I'd bet that less than 1% are fakes or altered. I bet the % of raw cards with problems on eBay is 30% or more.<br />2. My son has no interest in cards. When I croak my wife will sell the stuff off and she'll get some decent money with the older stuff graded.<br />3. I like the PSA Set Registry, call me nuts if you want but its interesting to see where your sets are ranked.<br />4. The look of the slabbed cards grows on you (although it did take me about 6 years). <br />5. Slabbed cards are not going to get further damage (I know some move around in some inserts but how many corners have you dinged just looking at them or putting them in albums?).<br /><br />In summary, my collection will always have both graded and raw cards. I can't see going to the expense of grading all my Topps sets so I'm getting them in Roop albums. But the older stuff can be stored in a few boxes and a few of them displayed nicely. Grading is here to stay and as Rodney King said 'Can't we all get along?'

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Posted By: <b>Mark M.</b><p>I don't really understand the "start out slow" advice myself. Are posters saying if I bought some cheap n162s, examined the cardboard, I'd then be able to detect reprints over the internet? If I did manage to purchase a cheap n162, chances are it would be cheap because it was fake. Anyway, I too cannot afford to eat a fake Anson (I actually got my $$ back from the infamous eagle8016) so I set up certain prerequisites for buying expensive cards: (i) good feedback, (ii) pay through paypal (credit card protection) and (iii) slabbed. I appreciate the advice because I realize posters are just trying to save me money (isn't this website an offshoot of the SGC site..haha), but it just isn't very practical/possible for me to learn about all the different pre-war cards. Even experienced collectors on this thread admit to sometimes not being able to detect reprints - I'd rather pay more for cards I know (or am very confident) are real and (pretty often) unaltered.

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>".......ain't it a shame!"&lt;br /&gt;(that's ther very end of the "Truckin'" verse about "reds and vitamin c and cocaine, but I couldn't remember the rest of the line--something about Jane...)<br /><br />Red Sox WS pin arrived today; it couldn't have picked a better time!<br /><br />Should I get it slabbed?

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Posted By: <b>Tbob</b><p>Waaaay up this thread, Dan talks about the relative inexperience of graders vis a vis vintage, scarcer cards and how the graders are more comfortable and knowledgeable grading McGwire rookies and cards from the 80's and 90's and 00's. I agree 100%. A case in pint is the 1909 Obak set. Unlike the 1910 and 1911 sets, the 1909 Obaks were almost all hand cut and yet nice 09s which have sat in a collection for over 25 years are routinely sent back as "trimmed." I have tried to get the whole 1909 set graded by the 3 bigger grading companies, PSA, SGC and GAI, but it is almost impossible for this reason. <br />I also shake my head in wonder when a vintage caramel card from an E94 or E98 set or an M116 Spoting Life card is sent back with "evidence of trimming" and yet I see certain collector/dealers having their obviously trimmed cards sail through. It's very frustating for the small time collector. I guess there is no answer, thanks for letting me rant...

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Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>........I mean, they have to keep up with SGC, and they don't know enough to do it legitimately...

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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>"Red Sox WS pin arrived roday; it couldn't have picked a better time! Should I get it slabbed?"<br /><br />Julie - I would say you have to in order to protect its value in case you ever want to resell it. It will, however, look awfully funny pinned to your sweater incased in a big rectangular block of plastic with an SGC label on the top, but it must be done, otherwise how will anyone know it's real?

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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>If you don't trust the grading companies, and feel that you are capable of making authentication judgments for yourself, buy raw cards. If you don't feel that you are capable of making judgments for yourself, either take your chance on raw cards, or buy slabbed ones recognizing there is still going to be a significant error rate but at least you have some protection in terms of resale value because for better or worse the market has more or less commodotized graded cards. Card graders vary widely in experience. I have no doubt that they make lots of mistakes (hopefully innocent ones), but on the whole I also have no doubt that they do a much better job of authenticating than I could do. So I buy graded cards. If you feel otherwise, don't buy them. But why people are so shocked and outraged to see a card that superficially looks ok end up in a TWO holder (and why someone would suggest "calling the authorities", I read it quickly but didn't think it was tongue in cheek), I do not understand at all.

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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>"Livin on reds, vitamin C and Old Judge...."<br /><br />Creepy - I was just listening to Truckin' by the Grateful Dead not 1 minute before I saw these words you posted...

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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>would be if someone created a website (or even a thread here) where they put up good quality scans of cards in different grades - for example, 4 or 5 cards from different issues that were poor, 4 or 5 that were poor/fair, then fair, fair/good, good, good/very good, very good, very good/excellent, excellent, excellent/nr mint, near mint, near mint/mint, mint, gem mint, etc. - it's hard to depend on websites for card dealers or ebay to get a sense of this as people tend to exaggerate when selling, and people's standards vary so drastically - if someone who was very good at this did this as a service of what they thought were accurate examples of each grade, it would certainly help me to be able to more accurately self-grade my own cards and other ones i'm considering buying. anyone up for it?

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Posted By: <b>Bill Cornell</b><p>Gary-<br /><br />Check the collector sites that are in the Vintage Links page. There are lots of examples across these sites.

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Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>I don't think that will necessarily work. Scans are very subjective - and often don't cover nuances like wrinkles, creases, etc. If you are ever very interested in the subject - Levi Bleam has a very nice run of 1952 Topps Mickey mantle cards in almost every grade from 1-7. If he no longer has them in inventory - he might have the scans stored somewhere. <br /><br />Especially with the lower-end graded cards, it can be such a variety of things that knock it down. A perfectly-centered strong card with great corners that has a crease. A card with great corners that is centered very poorly, and the submitter did not want a qualifier. Sometimes a minute pinhole on a T3 makes it a 1, but nonetheless very beautiful. Back damage can often misalign a card. A good example of a card with back damage is shown below (owned by Jay Wolt - a great guy in the hobby):<br /><br /><img src="http://www.qualitycards.com/pictures/11498466.jpg"><br /><br />Thus - I think, at the end of the day, especially with grades 1-5, you may see cards with great eye appeal, and you may see cards that look like they've gone through a washing machine. Scans only do so much - and (in my mind) they tend to focus people too much on centering - and often mask other concerns (light corner wear).<br /><br />Best-<br />~ms

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Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>If you have a fake slabbed isn't that grading company responsible in compensating you? I'm pretty sure SGC will...<br /><br />Anyways I live in Saskatchewan. There isn't a dealer in 100's of miles so I'm forced to use the internet to buy 19th century baseball cards. (Not that I don't mind the internet) When it comes to Ebay its nice to have cards graded. I've bought raw on Ebay before and only had one card trimmed (Got my money back)<br /><br />Anyways I'm not that trusting on Ebay. I'm fine with buying raw from a site like Lipset, Mastro, etc...

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Posted By: <b>Gary B.</b><p>at this stage in my collecting, i'm really not over-fanatical about grades, and card grading holds very little interest to me, especially since most of the cards i buy are under $50, usually under $25 - seems silly to spend $10 to grade those unless i want to resell them, and i'm not collecting to resell.

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Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>first, it's possible to be okay with the "concept" of what grading companies "should" be, but not like in the least what they actually are.<br /><br />As far as the other stuff - you guys spend your time and money however you want...my fingers are getting tired.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>keep truckin’, like the do-dah man<br />Together, more or less in line, just keep truckin’ on.<br /><br />Arrows of neon and flashing marquees out on main street.<br />Chicago, new york, detroit and it’s all on the same street.<br />Your typical city involved in a typical daydream<br />Hang it up and see what tomorrow brings.<br /><br />Dallas, got a soft machine; houston, too close to new orleans;<br />New york’s got the ways and means; but just won’t let you be, oh no.<br /><br />Most of the cast that you meet on the streets speak of true love,<br />Most of the time they’re sittin’ and cryin’ at home.<br />One of these days they know they better get goin’<br />Out of the door and down on the streets all alone.<br /><br />Truckin’, like the do-dah man. once told me you’ve got to play your hand<br />Sometimes your cards ain’t worth a dime, if you don’t lay’em down,<br /><br />Sometimes the light’s all shinin’ on me;<br />Other times I can barely see.<br />Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it’s been.<br /><br />What in the world ever became of sweet jane? <br />She lost her sparkle, you know she isn’t the same<br />Livin’ on reds, vitamin c, and cocaine,<br />All a friend can say is ain’t it a shame? <br /><br />Truckin’, up to buffalo. been thinkin’, you got to mellow slow<br />Takes time, you pick a place to go, and just keep truckin’ on.<br /><br />Sittin’ and starin’ out of the hotel window.<br />Got a tip they’re gonna kick the door in again<br />I’d like to get some sleep before I travel,<br />But if you got a warrant, I guess you’re gonna come in.<br /><br />Busted, down on bourbon street, set up, like a bowlin’ pin.<br />Knocked down, it get’s to wearin’ thin. they just won’t let you be, oh no.<br /><br />You’re sick of hangin’ around and you’d like to travel;<br />Get tired of travelin’ and you want to settle down.<br />I guess they can’t revoke your soul for tryin’,<br />Get out of the door and light out and look all around.<br /><br />Sometimes the light’s all shinin’ on me;<br />Other times I can barely see.<br />Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it’s been.<br /><br />Truckin’, I’m a goin’ home. whoa whoa baby, back where I belong,<br />Back home, sit down and patch my bones, and get back truckin’ on.<br />Hey now get back truckin’ home.