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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>...this time it's being sold by Wayne Varner in a PSA holder. This is truly pathetic. Wayne, if you are reading this board - kindly remove me from your catalog mailings.<br /><br />This is a true statement of how low our hobby has sunken:<br /><br /><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=5128907 885&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V" target=_new>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=5128907 885&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V</a>
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I would venture to guess with almost 3,000 positives and 1 negative this seller is trying not trying to do anything wrong...I have heard too much good about them....regards
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>and has a good record; it ain't him. If you want to post blame, put it on PSA and GAI for encapsulating a bad card. Oh, but I forgot, as Joe Orlando testified at the trial, they don't make mistakes... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>and if they have an unslabbed card that they think is a better "ex-mint" than a slabbed one, they'll charge the higher price for their unslabbed one. If two slabbed (graded) cards have the same grade, and they think one superior to the other, there will be a price difference.<br /><br />They've never sold me anything remotely questionable..I've probably bought 10-12 cards from them--conserevative estimate (out of their catalogue); they carry GAI, PSA SGC--I think that's it, besides ungraded.<br />This was a graded card they sold me, a 5 or a 6. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/N162Brot.JPG">
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Rob L</b><p>Sorry all. I'm clueless on this one. What's the story behind his card?
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>As you probably know by now, I'm not a slab fan.<br />I've known Wayne and Zimp for about 20 years.<br />They're members of the Nice Guys and Straight Shooters Club.<br /><br />Any newbie coming into the selling side of this hobby, would only hope to have their rep after X amount of years.<br /><br />Wayne, I may not be into slabs, but please keep me on your mailing list.<br /><br />Joe Pelaez -- (tobacco-r-us) <br /><br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>The previous owner of the card told me months ago (after the last controversy about this had subsided) that he had sold it to 'someone' for $200 and told them that it had been altered, and also that that person elected to send it to PSA anyway, and that it was slabbed as a '3'.<br /><br />Now it shows up as a Wayne Varner card. The person who last owned it is now telling me (email today) that he sold it to Wayne and elected NOT to tell Wayne that it had been altered, and that Wayne then sent it to PSA.<br /><br />I now have scans of this same e95 card in SGC, GAI and PSA holders, as well as a scan of when I owned it, prior to the doctoring. This is a truly sad statement about our hobby.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>ChuckkieB</b><p>...can someone kindly explain to me how the card has been altered?
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/catchme/Cobbe951.JPG">
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/042502_2178_1220_prv.gif"> <br /><br />Should be EASY to see with black light...fairly subtle--the borders just barely touched.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>there was a horizontal paper tear that was "fixed".
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, I can't blame the seller, I blame PSA. If you can get the card encapsulated by one of the few reputable graders, so be it. But Scott's before and after pics make it painfully clear that the card for sale has been altered (and frankly it doesn't even look very real in the PSA slab). How in the hell did this card get through?
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>jonnycat</b><p>"I blame PSA"<br />you might as well blame SGC & GAI too! Since the same card resided in their holders at 1 time. Ungraded is where its at!!!
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>runscott:<br />"I don't know Wayne, but I DO know this"... <br />*<br />*<br />The above is obvious.<br />-----------------------<br />runscott:<br />"The previous owner of the card told me months ago (after the last controversy about this had subsided) that he had sold it to 'someone' for $200 and told them that it had been altered, and also that that person elected to send it to PSA anyway, and that it was slabbed as a '3'."<br />*<br />*<br />The road map points to PSA<br />-----------------------------<br />runscott:<br />"Now it shows up as a Wayne Varner card. The person who last owned it is now telling me (email today) that he sold it to Wayne and elected NOT to tell Wayne that it had been altered, and that Wayne then sent it to PSA."<br />*<br />*<br />Now we have a picture of a Questionable previous owner, and the road map still pointing to PSA.<br />-----------------------------<br />runscott:<br />"I now have scans of this same e95 card in SGC, GAI and PSA holders, as well as a scan of when I owned it, prior to the doctoring. This is a truly sad statement about our hobby."<br />*<br />*<br />Scott, WHO DID THE DOCTORING?<br />Did any of the expert slabbers, SGC, GAI, PSA - indicate the word ALTERED?<br /><br />Scott, I want to thank you for updating us with information on a thread that you started.<br />Having said that.<br />Don't you think that you owe Wayne Varner of Shoebax an apology?<br /><br />Joe
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>I bought the card in the GAI holder and crossed it to SGC prior to knowing the history. The card sat on my webpage for months in both the GAI and SGC holders. It was also listed on ebay twice with a reserve and did not sell. <br /><br />In March I placed it up with no reserve and it sold for $750. At that time Scott identified the card as being one he had owned. He posted an image of the card illustrating its condition when in his possession. I told the buyer of the card I could not sell it since it appeared that it may have been restored and I refunded his money. I sent the card back to SGC who offered to buy it back from me at $750. I declined and asked they send the card back to me in an ungraded state. I received $200 in free grading for my gesture. <br /><br />In May I sold the card for $200 to a customer disclosing the history. He did not feel that the card was altered and sent it to PSA and they graded it. I informed Scott of this at the time and sent him a scan of the card in the PSA holder and Scott assured me he would not post about the card anymore and stir up controversy.<br /><br />In Mid July my customer's Father died and he needed money. I met him at the National and purchased his collection. At the same show I sold the card to Wayne along with several other pre war cards. As I told Scott today, I made a judgment call not to go into the history of the card with Wayne. The card had been graded by GAI, SGC and now PSA. To me it was now irrelevant.<br /><br />Contrary to what some of the board (bored) experts write, this card does not light up like a Christmas tree. I examined the card in an ungraded state under high band and low band blacklights after SGC sent it back to me. NO COLOR WAS ADDED TO THIS CARD. It seems the card was rolled out. There was still evidence of the tear or flap on the back as well. It appeared to be nothing more than a break in the paper stock from the surface crease.<br /><br />Wayne is owed an apology. Wayne is a great guy and an honorable dealer.<br /><br /><br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />Since when does my opinion, one that you have concluded is uneducated and inexperienced, trump that of GAI, SGC and PSA? I did not "roll out" the card and did not send it in for grading.<br /><br />It is easy to conclude that Wisconsin is not held to similar disclosure requirements. Of course this is just a small sampling. I assume <a href="http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewBidItems&sort=3& userid=buying_sgc_cards&completed=1&all=0&rows=200 &satitle=&sorecordsperpage=50&sspagename=h%3Ah%3Af item%3AUS%3FssPageName%3Dh%3Ah%3Afitem%3AUS&sofocu s=bs&nojspr=y&nojspr=y&pfid=0" target=_new>these</a> will be in significantly higher holders soon.<br /><br /><br />[edited to fix link]
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>You should apologize to Wayne for knowingly selling him an altered card and exposing him to the same reputation that you have.<br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Whatever
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>john/z28jd</b><p>Im not taking any sides Scott but your initial post still makes Wayne from shoebox look like hes also partly guilty which hes obviously not.So the apology part of Joe's post should at least be something to think about.Its not hard to go back and edit it or apologize.<br /><br />Ive only bought from shoebox once and had a great experience but ive talked to them numerous times at fort washington and as a group they are very nice and knowledgable people with a great reputation
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Wayne, I apologize. <br /><br />I think that anyone who is involved in our hobby should take advantage of every resource available to them, and certainly this board is such a resource.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>"It seems the card was rolled out. There was still evidence of the tear or flap on the back as well."<br /><br />You elected not to reveal this to Wayne? As I read it, you owe Wayne an apology and an explanation and should probably buy it back for whatever he paid you. <br /><br />MW, as far as California law goes, you have the right statute but the wrong locale. The transaction in question took place entirely in Cleveland, so Ohio law is likely to apply to it because the contract was formed and performed in Ohio.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>3 grading companies graded the card as VG. The card was therefore not altered. Apparently whatever was done to the card did not meet the definition of an alteration since it was holdered 3 different times. <br /><br />It was only due to this boards lynch mob practices that SGC thought it would be best to have the card out of their holder. <br /><br />MW<br /><br />Can you please explain <a href="http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewBidItems&sort=3& userid=buying_sgc_cards&completed=1&all=0&rows=200 &satitle=&sorecordsperpage=50&sspagename=h%3Ah%3Af item%3AUS%3FssPageName%3Dh%3Ah%3Afitem%3AUS&sofocu s=bs&nojspr=y&nojspr=y&pfid=0" target=_new>these purchases</a> to us? <br /><br />Back in March you explained to me in PM's that you never buy lower graded cards unless they are within collections. Guess you have to start somewhere. This is the beginning of the evolution of a MINT card. It will be exciting once the work is done and I can show the before and after images.<br /><br />[edited to fix link]
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Joe S</b><p>So, let me get this straight. This card is an issue, despite being graded by 3 company's, but the fact that WHEAT makes tons off of REPRINT cards that are a very serious problem within the Vintage collecting industry? <br /><br />MW, you may also want to go back to Legal School, you seemed to have missed some classes there.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>823dek</b><p>Iam not so sure that the MW"S that you are refering to are the same people !<br /><br />BE SURE !
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>823dek</b><p>look over your shoulder whatever it is that your doing then you too can sleep at night !
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Julie Vognar</b><p>sacrificing our daughters, and it doesn't seem so bad anymore...
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>Three (3) different crack slabbers, count 'em three (3).<br />SGC - GAI - PSA sang together like a rap trio, and the Alter word was left in Rio.<br /><br />Even an 1980 - 1970 vintage collector newbie can walk right onto this forum for the first time and see the difference between the ungraded Cobb, and the thrice graded Cobb.<br />Same Cobb, but we now really know what they mean by plastic surgery.<br /><br />Questions abound.<br />1. Who doctored the card?<br />2. Who had it slabbed by GAI?<br />3. Why did a dealer on this board feel that just because 3 different morticians slabbed the card it thus became a cleansed card and there was no need to alert the buyer of same, namely another dealer.<br />Let me stop here and try to digest this tale.<br />Let me see if I can understand this correctly?<br />The SGC Slabbers, offered to buy back their mistake for $750.00 in an effort to protect their credibility -- an intelligent move.<br />The dealor generously declined the offer, wanted his card back ungraded and gracefully accepted $200.00 of free slabbing.<br /><br />In May the dealer sells the card to a customer.<br />Customer is advised of the sordid details.<br />Customer says, not a problem, and he sends the card for a PSA grading - card is graded - what else is new?<br />Dealer informs Scott of this and sends him a scan of the card in the PSA holder and Scott assured him that he would not post about the card anymore and stir up controversy.<br /><br />In Mid July the dealer's customer's Father passed away and the customer needed money. <br />He met him at the National and purchased his collection. <br />Whereupon, at the same show he sold the card to Wayne along with several other pre war cards. <br />As he told Scott, he made a judgment call not to go into the history of the card with Wayne. <br />The card had been graded by GAI, SGC and now PSA. <br />To the dealer, "it was now irrelevant."<br /><br />In other words, this particular dealer negated what he saw with his own eye's in favor of the mistake done by the 3 slab experts (sic) because their mistake inadvertently gave him the chance to deal.<br /><br />BOTN:<br />"Wayne is owed an apology. Wayne is a great guy and an honorable dealer."<br />*<br />*<br />You got that right.<br />At what point did you decide that he didn't have to know the details about that card?<br /><br />Joe<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>BOTN</b><p>Joe<br /><br />It was not a premeditated act and in no way was I trying to deceive Wayne. I have a very good relationship with him. I just simply no longer felt it was relevant. 3 grading companies saw the card in a raw state. All 3 agreed it was ok. Whatever has been done to the card did not warrant it coming back as restored. I am just not sure how much farther my responsibility is supposed to go when I was not the one who flattened out the card, not the one who sent it in for grading and not the one who encapsulated it with my 3 initials on the holder. <br /><br />If you had any idea of exactly how many cards in holders have undergone some kind of extra assistance, you might not be so appalled by this Cobb. Cards like the Cobb and ones that have had far more done to them trade hands countless times a day and also reside on numerous dealers' webpages, even some who post here. <br /><br />I sell graded cards. I cannot start to second guess every single card I have in inventory. That is why we have PSA, GAI and SGC. These are the experts and for the most part I have a great deal of faith in them. <br /><br />As for the Cobb, SGC was willing to buy the card back due to the negative publicity surrounding it. I did not want them to take a hit for $750 when they charge $10 to grade. My declining their offer was not in an attempt to get the card back either. Keep in mind they were not obligated to encapsulate it once I sent it in the GAI holder for a crossover, even after breaking it out. They could have said, "Sorry Greg but after we broke the card out we saw that it was restored and therefore we cannot holder it."<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>MW: I don't know Ohio law so I don't know if they even have a law pertaining to altered sports cards. My guess is not; CA often leads the way on laws like this. <br /><br />Greg: I don't follow your reasoning here: <br /><br />SGC was willing to pay your price on the card to get it out of circulation and you turned them down? <br /><br />You could see it had been altered but since it was graded anyway you decided not to tell Wayne it had been altered? <br /><br />If I cannot understand the logic, I cannot buy the reasons given. If I don't buy the reasons given I cannot believe the statements or trust the person making them. I've bought a number of cards from you without a hitch, but I am losing my confidence over this situation. I think it would behoove you to explain this a little better and tell us what you plan to do about it. <br /><br />Regards, <br /><br />Adam
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>First of all, when Greg told me back in May that he had sold the card for $200 and that it was now in a PSA 3 holder and he would send me a scan, based on his previous actions and correspondences, I had no reason to believe him, i.e - I thought he was "yanking my chain" in an attempt to get me to post something on the board that he would later deny...what would be better than getting Scott to start screaming "Now it's in a PSA holder!!!" and then it turns out to be a lie...and NO, he never sent me the promised scan of the card in a PSA 3 holder. I discussed this with at least two board members back in May and we all agreed that Greg was just ****ing with me. <br /><br />So I told Greg on May 18, and this is an email quote: "Greg, Thanks for sharing this - yes, please send a picture. I am taking a LONG break from the board, so I won't stir up any more controversy about it. Scott" ...and I never got a scan or any other response.<br /><br />And in fact, I basically DID take a break from this board for a couple of months (which is LONG for me). And yes, it was primarily because of all the **** I took from Greg back in the Spring, and the pathetic support from others on the board. <br /><br />When this card did in fact show up in a PSA 3 holder, I was amazed and I posted about it. And before, Joe P, you jump my ass again, for the umpteenth unprovoked time, I apologized to Wayne in an above post, basically because I was stupid enough to believe Greg's previous email once I saw the card in the PSA 3 holder that he had told me about back in May. How in heck was I supposed to know that Greg sold the card, bought it back in yet a third company's holder, then sold it again without notifying the purchaser of the alterations? It was EXTREMELY naive of me, and if I had any sense at all I would have deleted Greg's email without even reading it. I won't make this mistake again.<br /><br />Yes, the grading companies have a responsibility to do their best to spot alterations. It's odd and encomprehensible that all three companies missed this, but with today's technological advances we will start seeing even more professionally altered cards show up in "safe" holders - there is always someone out there who will do anything to make a buck.<br /><br />Regarding who altered the card to begin with...there is no proof as to who actually did this. I'm sure that some of you on the board DO know who altered the Cobb, but I don't expect that the answer is ever going to be posted on this board. For every unscrupulous card dealer there are dozens of normally honest collectors who continue to turn their heads the other way when things like this occur. Joe P - I would think that with your investigatory skills and incredible connections to everyone in the hobby, that you would have the answer for us by now? Get on it man.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>there ARE non-flourescing colors, too, made especially for the purpose of secret restoration. I think Greg should return Shoebox's money, and Shoebox should return Greg's card.<br /><br />The SGC 30 T202 I won from the Sloate auction could really use some ironing out--would probably turn it into a 50. It looks like a--SGC 30 T202! What did I expect, a miracle? <br />(no point in posting a scan; wrinkles don't show well enough).<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/jphotos/042502_2178_1220_prv.gif">
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>My T200 'Jints w/Thorpe, Matty. etc. I'm happy as a pig in poop...
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>BOTN</b><p>Adam<br /><br />"SGC was willing to pay your price on the card to get it out of circulation and you turned them down?"<br /><br />Yes. It did not feel right to me to have them pay me $750 when they did nothing wrong. They took the card out of their holder because of the stink that was made here. I did not want to be the benefactor. <br /><br />"You could see it had been altered but since it was graded anyway you decided not to tell Wayne it had been altered?"<br /><br />I never wrote that Adam. I wrote it appeared the card was "rolled out". If I could see that and 3 grading companies could see it, and holdered the card, then it is obviously not considered an alteration is it?<br /><br />"I've bought a number of cards from you without a hitch, but I am losing my confidence over this situation. I think it would behoove you to explain this a little better and tell us what you plan to do about it." <br /><br />There is nothing that I can say that will make you or anyone else who posts here have any faith in me. I lost that battle long ago and have moved on. I am not on trial here and I have nothing to explain to any of you. I resent your tone towards me. I am not your son and you are not the judge. Save it for your next case against CU.<br /><br />Scott,<br /><br />The e-mail was sent with the scan of the card in the PSA holder. You are a complete liar and I can expect nothing more of you. I have the e-mail. You have twisted the facts to justify your rants. I have no beef with you except that you have one with me. Get over it and move on. At first I thought this happened only when you were drunk but it seems to be a constant in your life now.<br /><br />MW,<br /><br />Are you going to ignore my questions about the auctions that you won under one of your buying ID's, buying_sgc_cards? I enjoyed the constant lies when you denied the Battery arrest in Rosemont in August 2002. I was hoping for more entertainment.<br /><br />And last but not least, my dear Julie...<br /><br />The card was not touched up. Like MW, you have never held the card as I have and PSA, SGC and GAI. I am more than happy to buy the card back from Wayne at any price. I can assure you that what I sold it to him for does not cover my car payment for 1 month. In fact I may just hit his Buy It Now and send the card off to each of you to inspect, as long a Scott promises not to spill any of his cheap beer on the card when he is looking at it.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>honus3415</b><p>more famous Cobb card in the world at this point?<br /><br />Beer doen't have to be expensive to be good, and I for one appreciate having Scott as the Ralph Nader of the hobby.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>your father. I mean you no harm and do not seek to create resentment. However, I think as a customer who has seen some troubling things here, I have the right to ask for an explanation as part of my decision as to whether to engage in further transactions with you. You've responded that you think the card was rolled out (i.e., altered by somebody to remove a crease) but because the slabbers ok'd it, you don't feel any explanation is needed to your buyer. Fine. You've made your position known, which I appreciate and understand. I happen to disagree with selling a card that you have determined to have been altered without a disclosure because the slabber passed it (I certainly don't do it), and consequently, I will take my business elsewhere in the future.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>BOTN</b><p>Adam,<br /><br />If you were really concerned and really wanted an explanation you could pick up the telephone and call me or send me a private e-mail. You decided the personal pursuit was more suitable in a public forum. This is not the first time that you took your concerns with me to a public forum instead of contacting me directly. I do not agree that you mean me no harm.<br /><br />Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I never wrote that the card was altered, nor did 3 grading companies think it was altered. By all means take your business elsewhere. One less bottom feeder customer I see as an improvement to my business.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>its not really like it went from vg to nm.,(and into a slab) now thats altering.that should be told under those circumstances...but a slabbed 3 vg. just my opinion.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Your words and actions speak for themselves. I have nothing further to say about this.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>BOTN</b><p>Gosh Scott. Does this mean that you too will not be spending $259.45 with me every 6 months? Good news for you--more money for booze.<br /><br />Just get off my back, really. Before you can become the Hobby Protection Committee you need to report the facts. Why have you STILL not come clean with the contact information of the people who you know owned the card after you? Instead you decide to take your personal vendetta out on me and make me the bad guy.<br /><br />The hobby has changed. This is not 1974 anymore. Any of you who think the Cobb is an isolated event need to wake up too. I sold a card that you feel is altered but was graded by 3 grading companies and I did not tell the buyer of the card that the experts on the Network 54 board feel the card is altered. I only wish this were the most unconscionable thing to have occurred in the hobby. Take a look around. When the card goes from Good plus to EX or as we have seen EXMT to MINT (for a certain Old Judge), let’ talk.<br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>you're ramblin' Greg ... but I do think I'll have a beer.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p>Thanks, Eliot.<br /><br />DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>gcalex</b><p>I would love to see evidence of an ebay post, or any other communication, where any of you people faulting Greg for his supposed lack of ethics have advertised and sold a graded card while at the same time expressing your opinion that you had reservations about the grading company's opinion as to authenticity, or expressing your opinion that the card was overgraded, or otherwise doing anything less than trying to garner the full benefit of the third party grade. Surely given the volume of prewar cards out there and the prevalence of alteration (however one defines it), you must at some point have encountered a card that in its raw state (or even its graded state) you weren't sure about. I would be very interested in proof that you guys follow the same standards you would now impose on Greg.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I think it's obvious where yours are.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>BOTN</b><p>Scott, would you mind disclosing to the board the identities of the individuals who owned the card after you?<br /><br />MW,<br />I am relieved that you do not mind my revealing the truth about you. Would you care to address the purchases you made under ebay id, buying_sgc_cards? It is one thing to be criticised by members who do not engage in the practice of altering cards but I do not have to take this from the likes of you.<br /><br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Greg,<br /><br />Despite what you continue to say about me, I wish you only the best. I'm sure this was only a benign mistake.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>gcalex</b><p>VERY refreshing to see. I commend you. Now I suppose there are folks out there who would say you should not have sold the card in the first place given your concerns, but what you did certainly appears more than sufficient.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>BOTN</b><p>Examples such as this were merely done in an effort to continue your long battle with PSA. The history of your anti-PSA campaign is only second to that of your history with embrassing card restoration services or performing the tasks yourself.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Greg,<br /><br />I'm not here to start a fight with anyone and I willingly accept your salacious criticism. I think the words you speak reflect some of the anger and personal problems you have recently experienced so in no way do I fault you for them. The link I included was only meant as an illustration. I ran this auction on eBay approximately two years ago. Again, I wish you only the best.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>gcalex - this is not a matter of someone having a personal opinion that differs from that of three grading companies. When the card popped up on Greg's web-site, I recognized it and posted. Greg was shown the before and after pictures of both the front and back of the card - he "understood" at that point (despite what he currently claims) that the card had been altered prior to encapsulation. The grading companies did not have access to the "before" pictures at the time of grading, or they too would have realized that the card had been severely doctored. In fact, Greg returned the card to SGC and they took it out of the holder and sent it back at his request. So you see, this isn't a matter of personal opinion about alteration.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>gcalex</b><p>OK, I have no knowledge of the history of this card (never heard of it till I happened to read this thread) or the personal dealings involved, but it appeared to me that the criticism of Greg was ASSUMING his version of the facts, that is that he had an opinion that differed from PSA but no first hand knowledge that the card actually had been altered. I obviously can't speak as to what he knew or didn't know, I was just commenting generally on what seemed to me to be too high an ethical standard being suggested by folks, namely that one has to disclose one's own opinion when a card has been third party graded. That was my only point.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>BOTN</b><p>Scott<br /><br />Get your facts straight dude! I owned this card since June 2003. It was on my page until it sold on ebay in March 2004. Your thread about the card was posted on March 3, 2004 after you saw the card listed on ebay. You never brought it to my attention. I happened to stumble upon the before scan while looking on this forum. SGC took the card out of the holder due to the beating they were taking here. Not because the card was altered.<br /><br />What is your malfunction that you insist on changing the facts? Whay are you hiding the indentities of the guys who you know owned the card after you? Everything that you do is done in an effort to make me look like the creep that you are.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>If I were selling a graded card and was sent "before" scans showing that it had been altered, I would either modify my description to state that the card had been altered, or I would pull the auction and if possible get a refund from the person who sold it to me. I would expect similar behavior from anyone with ethics in this hobby. And I'm sure based on what MW says, that you are one of the good guys. (it's hot in here).
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>gcalex</b><p>Yes I agree there is a difference between actual knowledge that a card has been altered and merely having an opinion based on the appearance of the card or whatever. I was speaking only to the second circumstance, which I thought was Greg's situation. The fact that grading companies do get it wrong sometimes is unfortunate, but I don't think each of us is obligated to second guess them when we sell one of their cards. Of course noone hesitates to express his view that PSA UNDERGRADED his cards (PSA 7++++++; PSA 7 (8???) etc.), but most buyers probably discount that I would guess.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Greg, okay since you've dropped the ravings about drunkenness, I'll respond to you...<br /><br />You are right - I spotted the card on ebay and posted in this forum. You were a regular poster at the time and you got involved immediately and we had a rather heated discussion. You happened to "stumble" on the thread?! (where the heck is the laughing smiley?)<br /><br />And SGC, after taking it out of the holder, could NOT tell that it had been altered?!?! (where's the incredulous, head-scratching smiley?)<br /><br />No, I don't remember who I sold it to - I forwarded you a defunct ebay handle or address that I dredged up from my 'sent' folder, which didn't do any of us any good - I no longer have it, but perhaps you do? And no, oddly enough, I don't know who that person sold it to (the 'what, are you thick-headed?' smiley goes here) ...does this make me guilty of something? <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14> (I finally found a useful smiley)<br /><br />Greg, I haven't done anything to make you look like the creep that anyone else is (insert the brain twisted in a knot smiley here)
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>MW discloses his opinions about slabbed cards he is selling, because he is very knowledgeable about the card issues he deals in. So he feels obligated to state his opinion, even though it will almost certainly have a negative impact on a sale. <br /><br />Let's just say that someone like Greg has much less of a burden in that area.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>BOTN</b><p>Wentz "discloses" negative information about cards in PSA and GAI holders. Have you ever seen him do that with an SGC card or does SGC not make mistakes or overgrade anything? Additionally, why does his description of the N172 Kelly PSA 9 go into the history of that card? Shouldn't perspective buyers know the card was EXMT?<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Greg,<br /><br />I describe cards based on how I grade them. Some grading companies grade differently than I do. Thus far, I have found that SGC grades cards closest to how I grade. There's a level of consistency that I don't see with every grading company.<br /><br />As for the N172 Kelly, you're talking about the original PSA grade which was inaccurate and which Mastro and Steinbach also thought was inaccurate (they described it as the best condition N172 known). It doesn't happen often, but this was one case where I agreed with the catalog description of both the flaw on the reverse side (which is still there) and the overall assessment...independent of the grade on the holder. If you look back at the actual catalog description, Mastro and Steinbach <b><i>also</i></b> mention that everyone who viewed the card at that year's National also thought it was the best Old Judge they had ever seen. That's no small coincidence.<br /><br /><br />No one ever characterized the card as EM after it was initially graded. Mastro didn't. Steinbach didn't. PSA didn't. BMW Sportscards didn't. SGC didn't. And many forum members who have seen this card in person at the last two Nationals didn't. Combined, those individuals and entities know considerably more about grading than you do. I say this not to aggravate you or diminish your stature in the hobby but to clear up your misconceptions. My description of the card always has been and always will be accurate and those who have seen the card know it. Thank you.<br /><br /><br /><i><font size="2">edit: grammar</font></i>
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>I don't know everyone here exactly but I know the response in offense to the Wentz's are not at all accurate. I have bought tons of pre war vintage from them over the last few years in lower and mid grades. They ALWAYS disclose anything questionable on their product. Matter of fact I have NEVER had a card not grade from them. I have purchased cards like M101-5 Ruth rookie, Wide pens, Caramels, tobacco, Bowmans, Leaf, Goudeys, Play Balls, etc........As far as your "grading companies" go on the other hand I did buy a t206 set from SCP auction last DEC in which several of the SLABBED PSA cards were trimmed in the holders. To simply say that the cards that Mike may purchase off of ebay will soon turn into mint slabbed holders is just a ridiculous statement to make. Sounds like someone is trying to make far out false accusations to get the heat off their ass! BOTN- I think you should burn the stinkin card in a ritual ceremony with members of the forum at the next National. If this continues to be a problem I will take the card off your hands for $200. Mike, if you and Brian have any nice pre war groups in mid lower grade available email me. Greg- your statements about the Wentz's are just not accurate. I am sure you are a swell guy but you shouldn't make rash statements without knowing exactly what they do and sell.<br /><br />Jason
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Mike,<br /><br />I am quite certain that the N172 appears to be, then and now, one of the finest examples of its kind. Fortunately there are no high definition images of the back and front of the card to compare it to in the raw or PSA 6 holder and the holder it now resides in. I am however puzzled about why you now use Mastro and PSA as endorsements to confirm the condition of the card--two entities that you have no respect for and openly criticize at almost every chance you get. <br /><br />Also on April 22, 2004 in this forum you wrote:<br /><br />"The N172 Kelly first publicly appeared in a Mastro auction many years ago. Despite the grade of PSA 6, Mastro proclaimed it to be the best Old Judge on earth. Those who had viewed the card at the previously National agreed with this conclusion. And, based on the barcode, we know that it was a very early PSA grade. I purchased the card raw and submitted it to PSA. PSA graded it a 9. When I stopped submitting to PSA, I converted the card to an SGC holder."<br /><br />You stopped submitting to PSA (and are clearly an SGC supporter) but the card back in the PSA 9 holder? You do not need to address any of this as this really is my witch burning and I hate sharing the spotlight.<br /><br />Hi Jason,<br /><br />Careful calling me a swell guy. Around here that is punishable by weeks of endless public ridicule. My inquiry to Mike about his purchases of the lower graded cards on ebay, was not my way of taking the heat off of me. I was trying to illustrate again that Mike is not being honest. I have a PM from him from March 2004 where he told me he never buys low grade cards unless they come in a collection. The purchases were also made under an ID that did not directly identify them as the buyers.<br /><br />I have already stated that I did not feel there was any relevance in telling Wayne about the history of the card given the thrice- graded Cobb. That was a judgment call that I made and I did not feel anyone was being injured in my doing this. I thank you for your offer of the $200 but it is not necessary. I have already contacted Wayne and the ball is in his court as to what he wants to do about this.<br /><br />I can assure all of you that this card would grade every time it was submitted. I understand it appears slightly different than the image Scott provided but it does not appear to have been changed as drastically as some are making out. Admittedly I have become jaded being in this hobby. I am not going to throw anyone under the bus but those of you who are making an issue over what you feel is a lack of ethics by selling the card to Wayne, really have no idea what really is going on in the hobby.<br /><br />I have read several threads on this board and PSA’s where folks are openly talking about removal and restoration and what they are doing to their cards to “improve” their appearance. Do we know with absolute certainty that these cards will not make it back into the hobby at some point? One day it is a collection, the next it becomes a vehicle to make a buck or upgrade to a better one. This is the stuff at the collector level. What do you think goes on at the dealer level where guys make their livings? <br /><br /><br /> <br /> <br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Greg,<br /><br />The Mastro-Steinbach catalogs had different verbiage and varying content years ago. I don't think any knowledgeable vintage collector would argue with that statement. Also, the fact that I disagree with someone on one particular issue does not mean that I can't agree with them on a different issue. For instance, if Bill Mastro told me that he found you to be repulsively odorous and hideously ugly, I just might have a difference of opinion. I think you smell just fine. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Finally, the Kelly is not "back" in a PSA holder. Please check your facts. Thank you.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>"Finally, the Kelly is not "back" in a PSA holder."<br />What does this mean?<br /><br />"I purchased the card raw and submitted it to PSA. PSA graded it a 9. When I stopped submitting to PSA, I converted the card to an SGC holder."<br />If it was in the SGC holder as you admitted, how is it now in the PSA 9 holder?<br /><br />"Also, the fact that I disagree with someone on one particular issue does not mean that I can't agree with them on a different issue."<br />I would say that you have more than one particular issue with both PSA and Mastro. Guess it is all a matter of convenience. I am sure you do not want me to start opening old wounds.<br /><br />"For instance, if Bill Mastro told me that he found you to be repulsively odorous and hideously ugly, I just might have a difference of opinion. I think you smell just fine."<br /><br />I am relieved that you do not find me attractive but concerned that you have been so close to me that you know I smell fine.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do have to say that it strikes me as extremely odd that three seperate grading companies would look at and grade this card if it was in fact altered. If they did, it seems to me that raises a bigger issue, one that encompasses more than just this card.<br /><br />I will be the first to admit that I am not a fan of grading companies or of graded cards. However, that being said, one thing I thought that most of them could do at least moderately well was to authenticate cards and detect alterations. At least they all tout themselves as being able to do so, and they don't have a problem charging for that service. Up until now, I generally credited them with the ability to at least do that.<br /><br />Assuming for the moment that there's a problem with the Cobb card, PSA, SGC and GAI ALL graded it. What are the odds of that occurring? If the "professional" card graders are as good as they hold themselves out to be, and if they use all of the resouces they say they use, I would think those odds to be infinitesimal. If the Cobb card has issues and everyone at 3 separate grading companies who looked at it missed those issues, shouldn't that be a major cause for concern? How many cards with issues are missed, and therefore graded, when they are only sent to one grading company? <br /><br />I've never sent in a card for grading. However, as I understand the theory, you supposedly do it because the neutral and impartial grading card gods are there to tell you what you have. Consequently, if you've got qualms about a card and it comes back graded, I suppose that should normally mean its fine. I've never quite figured out how some cards could be repeatedly sent to the card gods and receive different grades, but I can understand a slight difference in assigning a grade to a given card much better than I can 3 companies missing what is claimed to be an altered card. How many more are out there? How do we tell which ones they are (I thought that's what they were sent in to determine in the first place)? Why are people paying for a "service" that, at least based upon the comments in this thread, they cannot trust even to determine whether or not the card they submit has been altered? Are the card doctors getting that good? <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i>"I am relieved that you do not find me attractive but concerned that you have been so close to me that you know I smell fine."</i><br /><br /><br />Greg,<br /><br />It was a hypothetical. I concede the fact that you might not.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Kenny makes some very valid points and ones that I have argued repeatedly to no avail. <br /><br />Mike you can view the card despite three qualified grading companies already having done so, I would like others to see it as well as I know you do not have my best interest at heart.<br /><br />"I am relieved that you do not find me attractive but concerned that you have been so close to me that you know I smell fine."<br /><br />Greg,<br /><br />It was a hypothetical. I concede the fact that you might not.<br /><br />Even more disturbing that this was your hypothetical example due to the rumors abound.<br /><br />
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>"Finally, the Kelly is not "back" in a PSA holder."<br />What does this mean?<br /><br />"I purchased the card raw and submitted it to PSA. PSA graded it a 9. When I stopped submitting to PSA, I converted the card to an SGC holder."<br />If it was in the SGC holder as you admitted, how is it now in the PSA 9 holder?<br /><br />"Also, the fact that I disagree with someone on one particular issue does not mean that I can't agree with them on a different issue."<br />I would say that you have more than one particular issue with both PSA and Mastro. Guess it is all a matter of convenience. I am sure you do not want me to start opening old wounds.<br /><br />Care to address the above? While you are at it can we openly discuss one of your ebay buying ids, buying_sgc_cards.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>My concern isn't primarily with this card. I don't care one way or the other about it except insofar as it affects my more overriding concern.<br /><br />If the card has alteration issues, 3 seperate companies shouldn't have missed it, simple as that. If they did, that doesn't say much for them. In fact, to my way of thinking, it raises huge red flags about the competence of all 3. I can see maybe one company missing what Scott and others are saying is a clearly altered card. But all 3? If it is truly altered, that's simply ridiculous. And, it raises all of the issues I alluded to in my earlier post.<br /><br />I don't have a problem with your suggestion of sending the Cobb to yet another grader. However, I really don't know what that accomplishes. The problem I see is that, at this point, I'm not sure who that almighty authority is. The 3 purported authorities have evidently already screwed it up, so who is next in line? If someone doesn't like the judgment of grader no. 4, does it then go to grader no. 5? <br /><br />That was sort of my point. If all of the purported best graders around missed on this card then, as best as I can tell, the available options are that: 1) three seperate card graders missed it; 2) the card is OK; or 3) the card doctors are getting so good that the card gods can no longer tell. Anything other than #2 isn't really calculated to build my confidence in the abilities of the people who slab for a living.
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>A question: If you clean a dirty item is it considered altered?
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>on whether you're talking about clothes, catfish or cards. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Simply amazing - the doctored Cobb is back
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I know you can bleach clothes and cards but can you bleach a catfish?<br /><br />A cleaned catfish would definately be altered, but I don't know why you would ever want to clean one? Kenny what did you have for supper? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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