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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>The last time I had trouble (with ebay) a very kind gentleman on this board helped me out a great deal. Well now, I may have serious trouble. $6000.00 worth of a possible loss!<br><br>On May 17th I mailed 2 submissions in the same package to PSA. The submissions were separated because 1 was a 5 day service and the other was a 30 day service. On May 22nd, I receive an email regarding the 1 submission. I immediately called and spoke to a gentleman that told me that the fellow that logs the 5 day submissions just hasn't logged it yet. I wait another day, call again. Same fellow answers and remembers me, says the guy is gone for the weekend and that it should be logged Tuesday. I call yesterday at the end of the day, still no email. A young lady answers and says all are logged immediately by the same person. She checks with the receiver and the receiver says only 1 submission was pulled from that package. I lost it! Thank god I restrained from foul language but $6K to me is an enormous amount of $$$$. She takes my heat and tells me not to worry, there are cameras behind each receiver and that the boxes are completely checked and flattened out. I can't imagine I was the first person to send 2 submissions in 1 package. I nice fellow (manager) called me back and asked for 2 days to research this, his name is Peter. I still have hope at this point though after a sleepless night last night, here are the possibilities going through my empty head:<br><br>The Card is there, just misplaced and sitting by a terminal (god I hope so!)<br>The receiver yanked the 25 card submission and discarded the box missing the single expensive card (this is usually my type of luck)<br>The receiver or someone else, helped themselves to the card ( I doubt this but it is a distinct possibility. <br><br> My email is r337man@yahoo.com, please write me directly if you can help or have suggestions. I cannot get to this board as often as I would like. Thank you, Dan. <BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>JC</b><p>Sorry to hear that Dan. I don't like graded cards, but I realize it is neccessary to sell at higher values, in most cases. Please keep us informed how PSA handles the problem. I was considering submitting a 1000 cards for grading later this year.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Thanks JC and MW, I agree, I am not big on grading but when alot of the people buying the high dollar items are not knowlegable of what they are buying, I guess they are safer with it slabbed.<br><br>Yes MW, that is what scared me yesterday! The manager said he personnally trained each customer service person and this should have been a recognized problem right after the 1st submission's email came. The guy that answered all 3 of my calls last weekend, recognized me and told me so, I hope he tells the manager that and what he said to me. Maybe they tape for quality service? They do not know me, I am not a member so they are probably thinking: this chump is trying to stick us. I just left a message with the president and gave him a few decent references.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>...</b><p>edited as this was an anonymous post.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Adam J. Baxter</b><p>I consider myself a bit of a purest and I don't buy slabbed cards, however I see the need for grading companies when it comes to selling high end material and for detecting altered and counterfeit cards. I sincerely hope that your card is recovered. I'm sure that if it's not, no matter what the reason, that you would have some legal options available to you. One of the main reasons I myself never shined on grading was the issue of sending stuff through the mail. I have always feared that I would not get my card or cards back. Anyway, it seems like PSA is trying to cover their butts and their at least trying to work with you which is more then what some companies will do when they've damaged or lost your merchandise. I hope you get your card back soon, keep us posted on what happens and good luck!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I would hope that you had this package insured, and if so, you shoudl have recourse for reimbursement that way if PSA can prove they don't have the card.<BR><BR>Jay
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Gentlemen and ladies, maybe I misrepresented something here. The post office is completely out of the picture! The insrance on the package is no good at this point! Package was delivered and the 1 submission successfully removed from it, package was then broken down and recycled by PSA. If the package was damaged when it came in, then I would have thought PSA would have contacted me to check the contents. If I ever ship anything with no insurance and it doesn't arrive to its destination, then that is on me as the shipper. Whoever posted that I am scamming, get a life! This isn't funny at all.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Not sure what your problem is with Dan but it is the boards policy not to allow anonymous attacks. If you care to make yourself known, and act in a civilized manner, then there is no problem. I hope when Elliot reads this he will delete your post. We have our disputes and arguments but they are not anonymous....thanks ....btw, I have never heard that about the person you have a problem with and would vouch for him in any way possible in any situation...
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I would think that PSA (or any other recipient of goods) would first check the packing list (your list of submitted cards) to make sure that everything on the list was there, prior to tossing or recycling the packaging. They have to be aware of how insurance works.<BR><BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>unfortunately, there were 2 different packing lists for 2 different services. 1 for a 5 day service (My expensive card) and the other, a group of 25 T206's. I am thinking they grabbed the group and possibly chucked the box. You can't put 2 different services on 1 submission so I sent 2 submissions. They are saying no way. Well then that leaves misplaced or stolen, bottomline. I am being told "This can't happen" and "This doesn't happen" well it did happen!!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>B C Daniels</b><p>For the E-92 Matty. This situation has occured before with PSA. It sucks. In the end they skirt unless you apply preasure.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Thanks B man, I love the way you signed your email! chat board something delux! That was funny. The unsigned post above Brian is me, sorry, i thought I signed in. <br><br>PSA has told me that this hasn't happened in the 12 years they have been in business! If anyone has any specifics of a similar incident with any value cards, PLEASE let me know. Thanks for all of the emails and concern I have received. I appreciate it. Dan
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Brian---If I were you I would request a copy of the tape of your package being opened. If this is not available then it comes down to your word against theirs which is not a particularily strong position for you. Good Luck!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Hi Jay, It is dan, not Brian with the problem. I have already requested that from the beginning but keep getting blown off. I am hearing legally that I am screwed and am not taking it well at all. I mailed them my items expecting them to professionally handle them. If I take this $6K hit, I am not sure what I will do.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Sorry Dan. Just a case of brain lock. Your situation points out the weak link in the mail submission of cards for grading. You are covered when the item is mailed via postal insurance. You are covered once the item is entered into the grading company's computer and you can see the entry on their web site. In the interim there is this little void where you have no proof as to where your item is. Even if you had only one item in your box I would be surprised (if it was high value and if it was lost/stolen) if the video tape would be available.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I am inclined never to submit cards again unless this loophole can be shut. Has anyone else ever had a grading company lose their card?<BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I can guarantee you that I will never do it again! I am just praying they are honest enough to recognize this and do something for me. I already see my other submission that was the 6 week service has been shipped today after just 1 week! Very little retribution in my book and not good enough! Joe the president seems like a decent Joe so I am hoping to be compensated. I have the emails showing the total I had it sold for, hell, at this point, I will just take what I have in it back! Best case scenerio is that it is located (notice I am no longer saying found!) I don't believe that it was lost. <br><br> Jay, you are correct! a major loophole that I had no idea existed and that there is NO PROTECTION from obviously! Peter at PSA kept suggesting that I never sent it but I ABSOLUTELY sent it! Instead of coming up with bullcrap reasons where or why I couldn't have sent it, they should be looking at what possibly happened to it at their end! Sorry, I am rambling but this really hurts the wallet!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>THAT LAST POST IS ME AGAIN, NOT SURE WHY IT ISN'T PICKING UP MY SIGN IN TIL AFTER THE FACT. MY BUST.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>""I am inclined never to submit cards again unless this loophole can be shut. Has anyone else ever had a grading company lose their card? ""<BR><BR><BR>Well -- I agree that you seem to have been screwed, and this is a very unfortunate situation.<BR><BR>The potential solution in the future is to send your submissions separately. Do not combine submissions in one package unless each submission is over some critical mass of cards (e.g. 20 or 100+ each). <BR><BR>I wonder if you would have a claim against the USPS at all...? You sent a package, insured for $6,000 or whatever -- but what arrived at the final destination was a package only valued at $400 or so. Doesn't seem morally right to go against the USPS, though.<BR><BR>Whenever I have sent a small submission as part of a larger package -- I always include it in a large box, with the smaller submission marked "5-day" or whatever.<BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Hi Marc, Unfortunately I rarely submit cards to grading and didn't know any better. I should have video taped me packing the box and sealing it with 5 witnessess. It is unbelievably rediculous to have to go through all of that. If the grading service isn't covering themselves at their end for this, then they should have some kind of in house insurance or something. As the customer, I shouldn't have to worry about this. The post office is completely out of the game here. The package was delivered and not damaged, their job was fullfilled. PSA called me last night at my job and cell at 8:20 pm so I missed them. I will call back today for the final decision. Over a week of not sleeping and eating properly and I have done nothing wrong! It just isn't right. Dan.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Peter at PSA just called. He states that their investigation shows that the card was never there and that I am out $6K. He didn't come out and say this but obviously they consider me a liar. There is NO FILM of the packages being opened but they are convinced that the 3 people opening the hundreds of packages that day did not miss it or take it. He stated they have insurance for lost cards but feel this one was never there! They have paid out on lost cards after they have been entered into the system and then lost. This grey area between the package being opened and the submission being entered is a DANGER to all! I hope my very expensive lesson helps to teach several people. I have found an attorney to help, that is my next step, then watch for my MANY articles in the respective trade magazines bashing this pathetic customer service!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>Truly sorry about your nightmarish experience. Could you post a scan of the card in question so we can keep our eyes open in the event it "surfaces"? <BR>regards..............Todd
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Great idea Todd! I hope none of you have to deal with Peter! He had me flagged a liar and thief from the beginning! <br><br><BR><img src=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bandache/psamagie.jpg><BR><img src=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bandache/psamagie2.jpg>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>mrc32</b><p>No offense but I would never ever ever send a $6,000 card in the mail. Why in the world wouldn't you take it there in person or wait to submit it at a show when PSA or SGC were there?<BR><BR>Seems like common sense to me. But it is to bad. I hope you can come up with a solution.<BR><BR>Nice card.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>I assume that if it was stolen that it will show up on the market sooner or later. I've saved your image for refrence and will keep my eyes open.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Brian C Daniels</b><p>Plus PSA should flag any Cobb card ( I think it was a Cobb ) that comes their way similiar to the one in question. (provided they do not already have it or tossed it in the trash of course). TBob-chime in with legal advise!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Obviously you are correct and my common sense was missing! I had the card sold upon it being graded and didn't want to wait for the national in July. I guess my haste or whatever cost me dearly! You are correct though, I had always submitted expensive cards in person. PLEASE LEARN from my mistake! PSA is either negligent or dirty! Either way, it would have been a nat to them to cover this on their insurance, meanwhile it has drastically affected my family!! Shame on them!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>botn</b><p>Dan,<BR><BR>I was under the impression that PSA has cameras everywhere. I am not sure if all cameras have video surveillance and for what period of time that footage is available for viewing. What would be the point of having cameras in only one part of the grading process? Makes no sense.<BR><BR>Based on what you are reporting from Peter, the customer is completely vulnerable from the time that the package is given to the employee(s) to enter into the system. It is not until PSA posts grades that you know that they have accounted for the same number of cards and the specific cards that you had submitted. So if there is a breach in security or someone inadvertently disposes of a card while emptying a customer's package the customer will not know until the day grades are posted, which can be up to 30 days depending on the service.<BR><BR>On several occasions I have had PSA call me when I have come up with an incorrect total. i.e. I write that there are 42 total cards and they count 43. It makes you wonder what they do if they find a discrepancy. You write down 1952 Topps Mantle and the card is a 1952 Topps common. I am not sure how much hobby knowledge the employees have that enter the info into the computer. <BR><BR>PSA should make the details of the submission available online with e-mail notification as soon the cards are received and entered into the system.<BR><BR>My suggestion is to contact Charlie Kahler. Charlie if you do not know him is an incredible man. He used to be in charge of Customer Service and is now the head of Special Projects. This is really not his field anymore but I can guarantee you that he will do whatever he can to get to the bottom of this.<BR><BR>Please keep us posted on what happens. <BR><BR>Greg<BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>botn</b><p>You may find this link to the PSA site interesting. It is a little vague.<BR><a href="http://www.psacard.com/grading/grading_process.chtml" target=_new>http://www.psacard.com/grading/grading_process.chtml</a>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Hi Greg! thanks for the input. actually, PSA does send an email as soon as the submission is logged. this is when I noticed I was missing a submission and I called immediately! Where does Charlie work? I am very desperate and will gladly accept any help! If he works at PSA he probably won't help me, I was told by Peter that Peter himself, and all of the executives agree that the card was never there, in other words, they all agree that I am a blatent LIAR and that there is no way their employees opening hundreds of packages could have made a mistake or taken anything. dan.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Thanks for this link! I didn't see this one and my lawyer needs it!! I really appreciate this, you are all the greatest collecting buds I could have. Thanks for helping me through this nightmare! dan.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Tim Newcomb</b><p>Many, perhaps most, of us have dealt with Dan and know he's a straight shooter. I'm perfectly certain that if Dan says he mailed the card, then PSA either lost it or allowed it to be stolen.<BR><BR>After hearing this story, I for one would not submit ANYTHING to PSA until/unless they deal more reasonably with Dan's problem. I will be happy to tell them this. Unfortunately since I have very seldom dealt with them anyway, my "boycott" will not mean much to them by itself. But if, say, two dozen of us wrote in to object to their handling of the missing Magie, it might make some difference. <BR><BR>I urge everyone who feels similarly to make their feelings known to PSA as soon as possible-- not just to help Dan but to help protect anyone who submits cards in good faith to be graded by this (apparently) soulless corporation.<BR><BR>Tim
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>edited
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>I should mention that Steve Rocchi was PSA's President at the time. Currently, Joe Orlando holds that position.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Botn</b><p>Dan<BR><BR>I know that PSA sends an e-mail once they receive the submission but you are not able to view what it is that they have logged in as far as contents of the submission. In your particular case the submission consisted of just one card so it was easy to tell that something was wrong. <BR><BR>Charlie Kahler works for PSA and I have found him to be extremely concerned with customer satisfaction. I have always known him to go the extra mile. I know of a Peter that works at PSA and he is in Customer Service. Your situation needs to be addressed directly by someone at a higher level. If this is not in Charlie's area any longer then he will tell you who to see. Just tell him that Greg Schwartz suggested that you contact him. <BR><BR>If this turns out to be an error on PSA's part they will make it right. It is not worth the money invloved, although material, to suffer bad PR over a situation like this. If I were you I would demand to have the situation explained to me directly from someone with authority.<BR><BR>Greg
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Greg has a good idea. I would take your complaint to either Charlie Kahler or Joe Orlando.<BR><BR>Charlie Kahler -- 800-325-1121 ext. 141 (email: KahlerC@collectors.com)<BR><BR>Joe Orlando -- 800-325-1121 ext. 170 (email: OrlandoJ@collectors.com)<BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Adam J. Baxter</b><p>Dan,<BR> Once again let me tell you how sorry I am to hear of this unfortunate chain of events. Like David stated earlier in the thread, I think we should all keep an eye out for your card, because if it was stolen, it WILL come up for sale somewhere. Most theft of this kind is done by morons who don't really know what they have, other then the fact that it's old, it's baseball and that they could make a fast few bucks off it. Having worked for the USPS I can tell you that despite their extremely strict policies, theft does occasionally occur, especially at the larger distribution facilities. If PSA is willing to stand by their story that the card never arrived, (you or your attorney should get that in writing), and the package was in fact insured through the USPS, then you should be able to recover your loss with the postal insurance, providing that you purchased the right amount of coverage of course. If in fact PSA does stand by their version that the card was never physically in their possesion, and whether or not you are able to recover your $6K from the postal insurance, I would definitly contact the USPS Inspection service and make a request for an investigation. I have used them on ebay sellers who have taken my money and kept my item and let me tell you, the inspection service doesn't play games. I had them go after a guy who sold me a book on ebay after he ripped me off for my 14.00 payment! I got my book in less then 30 days after I requested an investigation. They went after the guy like pirhanas and I would think that they would be all to eager to take on a case like yours. This is of course just a suggestion and I sincerely hope that everything works out for you. Good Luck
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Adam J. Baxter</b><p>Just one quick thing to add,<BR><BR>PSA may have NO FILM, But since the USPS trusts no one around the mail, even their own employees, the cameras at their facilities are always on.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Quote from Dan:<BR><BR><i>The post office is completely out of the game here. The package was delivered and not damaged, their job was fullfilled.</i><BR><BR><BR>Given this situation, and the fact that one usually notices if a sealed package has been opened during delivery, I think it would be extremely difficult to file a legitimate claim with the USPS.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>I do appreciate any possible avenues but can tell you that w/o the damaged box in hand, the post office is free and clear. Also, I have already contacted Joe Orlando directly so I believe my options are shot at PSA. It would be great if Charlie would still be interested and the PR they are going to get from me writing in trade magazines should be a thorn in their side. Dad has been doing this with me for 34 years and our combined reputation should make a difference, at least amongst the people that know us. Joe Orlando did sound concerned and compassionate but then had that stone personality that already had me as a liar call back for the final decision. So at this point, PSA has not made it right and have no intentions of making it right and I have no respect for Joe or Peter.<BR><br><br>The fact that there is a gap for this to happen and that they do not have that covered, should have been enough for the insurance route. Peter said "We are not just going to cut a $6000 check" Well, that wouldn't have been necessary, I have the original emails containing the amount that I had it sold for and after all of this rediculous stress, I would have been satisfied for receiving what it cost me. I may have even worked out in free grades, I have 775 more T206s I was going to have slabbed.<br><br> But no negotiation, no I am sorry for your loss, no nothing! just that "we are firm on the fact that it was never here" <br><br><BR><BR>For me to devise this as they are suggesting, I would have needed to know there receiving process wasn't filmed, or that the boxes weren't opened with a supervisor watching to log the submissions. I had no idea of their setup or process. And if someone offered me $6000 to go through this hell I have been through the last 2 weeks, I would tell them they are crazy!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>I'm sure you can put something together that would be very informative/helpful to other collectors (as this thread has been) - if you need help with editing for publication let me know.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Adam J. Baxter</b><p><BR>In retrospect, I do have to agree that blaming the USPS may be premature, However, if PSA is adamant that they never had the card and Dan is sure he sent it, then the USPS or one of their employees must be looked at if for no other reason then to rule them out. So far as to whether or not a package can be tampered with and go undetected, it can happen. Not often, but it is possible. One of the ways it could be done, under the radar, so to speak, Is if a mail handler finds the package in a distribution bin and seeing that it's headed for PSA, they could remove the package from the bin and bring it to the area where they examine AIRMAIL packages. In this area all AIRMAIL packages with improper or missing content tags are often carefully opened and examined for dangerous articles and then resealed. The USPS has been doing this regularly since 9/11. Damaged parcels are also repackaged either in these areas or close to them. <BR><BR>The scenario could work like this:<BR><BR>A mail handler by himself or with an accomplice could remove a PSA bound package from a bin, bring it to a repacking area as if it where a damaged package, then without doing anything blatantly obvious that would call attention to themselves by a floor supervisor, they could cut open the package with a boxcutter, remove the desired item, carefully remove the old tape, then carefully retape the box and then place back into a parcel bin. Then if the package arrived at PSA among the hundreds of others, the repackaged parcel could go unnoticed at a glance. Any mail handler could do this with any type of package (Priority, etc.) that comes in to a main distribution facility. The only type of package that would prove difficult is registered mail and I think Express, as they come through in locked fabric bags and are generally handled by special personnel. Keep in mind that if this does turn out to be the case, then chances are the guilty parties have done it more then once. I have actually heard stories of mail handlers and clerks at the South Postal Annex (a main distribution facility in South Boston, MA) going into the employees bathrooms during breaks and opening Christmas cards in the search for cash. This was a real problem for a time and the USPS put a stop to it. I'm not suggesting that the USPS condones this behavior, nor am I suggesting that it's rampant. It's just that it is possible. No security is 100% fool proof and people are people. I'm inclined to believe that the truth of where this card went lies somewhere between the USPS and PSA. I think that Dan is taking the right approach by contacting PSA, retaining legal representation, if needed, and asking for advice. This way every explanation can be examined and PSA and the USPS can be given a chance to say there piece and do there own investigating. I do agree with other members of the board that unless PSA can tie up this loophole, then submissions should be reconsidered by collectors. At least until PSA comments on this issue publicly. If they film the packages being opened and state that fact, then I fail to understand how they can tell Dan that there is no film. In my opinion, either they film these packages being opened or they don't. It should be either or, it can't be somewhere in-between, otherwise customer confidence is compromised. Anyway thats just my lengthy opinion. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Yes Scott! I believe I will need these proofread as I am in no way sure of what i can or can't say, plus my writing is horrific! Thanks for your time on this, I submitted 1 article to VCBC which will hopefully be in the next issue explaining the 4 variations of the 1938 Goudey Lombardi low number. Dan.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Scott, can you email me at r337man@yahoo.com thanks, dan.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>Can't taz go over there and do his thing? Taz and Coutore both seem to get results!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>carlacardman</b><p>This post was deleted due to it's anonymous nature. Basically the poster called the originator of this post a liar (easy to do, if anonymous). The person also didn't know how to spell the name of the card in question, and stated that a $6,000 loss was not so great.<BR><BR>Elliot<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><br><br>El liot<BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>david</b><p>i completely believe this story. the reason why there have not been other high profile thefts is because most people who submit cards of the value do it in person. also, as psa has expanded over the years their quality control has been non existent. and with their expansion i am sure that they are hiring people without complete background checks and that this probably happens more then the hobby hears about
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>botn</b><p>David<BR><BR>I live in Los Angeles and I am a Authorized Dealer for PSA yet most of my cards are submitted through the mail. It is ludicrous to imply that Collectors Universe is only honest when we witness them taking the cards from us. This is a multi-million dollar company that has every intention of continuing their operations.<BR><BR>Many criticisms will be made of PSA but yours is certainly not one of them. <BR><BR>As far as Dan's situation, I would still like to hear exactly what Charlie or Joe have to say before I draw any conclusions.<BR><BR>Greg<BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>The only question is "where is the card?" and how did it slip through PSA's fingers?<BR><BR>I agree with Greg's defense of PSA as a multi-million dollar company that does not want cards disappearing, but I also think that if they determined that the card was lost or stolen due to their own inept control methods, that there is a good chance they would still proceed the way they have with Dan (cover-up or ignore). <BR><BR>Perhaps $6K isn't a "high dollar" card to many of you, but it is to Dan and it would be to a large number of PSA's customers - I also think that it will be even more disturbing to PSA customers if it can't be determined what happened to the card, so that it can be avoided in the future. Was it stolen by an employee who simply found an "opportunity"? ...or perhaps a disgruntled employee? Was the video-taping mechanism turned off when Dan's package was opened? ...or the camera blocked by an employee's back? <BR><BR>So how would you expect PSA to respond to a situation like this? Look at their response to the most recent scandal they were involved in and you might find your answer. Oh, and certainly this same situation could occur at SGC, but just like the last scandal, we're still dealing with PSA here.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>I will take the middle ground. I have never met Dan and I have never met anyone at PSA, so it would be impossible for me to come to a conclusion as to what happened and who is the guilty party-- and I have no idea how anyone knows what happens from 12 posts on an internat board. My pet peave is people who come to conclusions (guilt/innocence/the essential details) of a big headline-grabbing case from watching fifteen minutes of the trial on the television or watching excerpts/commentary from Entertainment Tonight. When people come to conclusions so hastily, this usually indicates that person had already made up his mind before the case started and often before the supposed crime was even committed (predilictions).
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>runscott</b><p>Some of us know Dan, and so we're voicing our opinions. Just like I know you, so I could voice my opinion as to your credibility if you got into a jam like this.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Way back when I used to use PSA, I had a similar experience. I sent them a 1959 Topps Don Drysdale that was just beautiful. When I got it back it was a 9(OC) with a noticeably crimped corner(looked like someone had picked it up from a flat surface from the other end of the card and had slightly bent the card in the process. I screamed bloody murder at PSA and demanded $$ to cover the difference between a 9 and a 7. Rocchi called me to explain that they would have to check the "grading records" before sending me $$ to cover the loss. I asked what these records were--and then found out that there were none. I was asked to send back the card for their review, which I did. A few weeks later I received the card back in a new holder still graded 9(OC) but with a perfectly straight corner. How it got that way I can't say for sure. I've still got it--given its history, I don't know what to do with it. PSA # 09003765, in case anyone is curious. <BR><BR>I'd be ok if these turkeys screwed up occasionally and took responsibility. What burns my @$$ is the way they squirm around when they make a mistake. Step up and be men about it (no offense to our female readers)!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>I have to agree with Scott on this one. Many of us have done business with Dan and some here have even done extensive business with PSA. To that extent, we are, as David suggests, expressing our opinions in this matter; but they are, in some cases, well-educated opinions, based on many years of direct experience with one or both parties involved. Frankly, I think this forum is great testing ground for these educated opinions and other statements that may even fall into the category of conjecture or mere speculation. <BR><BR>The bottom line is that a $6K card is missing and no one seems to want to take responsibility for it. Personally, I find it very improbable that Dan is not being completely forthright in this situation. He sent a valuable vintage card to PSA and it has completely vanished. Must we all go to detective school or have been direct witnesses in order to draw reasonable conclusions?
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Hankron</b><p>Scott, I think this was a case of clicking the 'respond' button two seconds apart, as my post was not in response to your comments. I'm not saying people can't have theories or opinions or takes (I certainly offer my own on this board). I was merely commenting on people who jump to conclusions.<BR><BR>If anyone does not beleive how one's biases and predilictions shape one's view of objective situations and even facts, post this Magee story over on the PSA board and watch the reaction. You will likely find that many on the PSA board had made up their minds about this case long before it even happened. If you were to post on PSA board this excact story except say that the grader was Beckett instead of PSA, I bet you will find that their interpretation of the facts will magically change. <BR><BR>My point being that, like trying to look through a car window on a sunny day, people's interpretation of external facts and seemingly objective external situations is often mostly a reflection of themselves.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i><< I don't think that anyone opening packages at PSA needs a Maggie card for their T206 set. >></i><BR><BR>You're absolutely right. It would be the "Magie" that they would be looking for. Although, come to think of it, the "Maggie" might be even rarer.<BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Hi Greg, I can appreciate and respect your position as we do not know each other. I read David's post meaning that most people hand carry the expensive cards in so there isn't many mailed and not that every expensive card that was mailed in would be lost or stolen.<br><br>If you know Charlie well, please feel free to discuss this situation with him, I will gladly provide you or Charlie any details that you may need. I have exhausted my contact with PSA since I called Joe directly so to then contact Charlie just doesn't seem like it would help.<br><br>I do agree that PSA is a large company that plans on being around awhile but to just blow me off and say the card was never in there without filming the box being opened, is crazy.<BR>I packed and shipped 1 box that day containing 26 T206's and 1 being a very expensive 1 that belonged to me that I had paid alot of cash for. The day PSA received my package, 3 or 4 people are opening the packages and they received hundreds that day and none of those packages contain cards that belong to the people opening them. I was told by Peter that the receivers are not collectors but normal people who answered help wanted ads from the paper. Now which end of this shipping process would know exactly what was shipped? The sender or receivers?<br><br> Please feel free to email me directly if you think you can help. Thanks again. dan.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>David,<BR><BR>I don't think there is any question that a certain amount of subjectivity is involved here...just like there is when Supreme Court decisions are written, those who govern us draft new legislation, or the plumber you called attempts to unclog your sink. But let's apply a modicum of common sense here -- we could effectively nullify ANY Network54 "resolution" or statement of earnest by arguing that "we just don't know for certain" or by claiming that "those who argue a certain way have done so with bias."<BR><BR>I do, however, agree with your analysis that those on a different forum might very well argue a different problem causality; but keep in mind that there are differing degrees of experience, knowledge and expertise involved here. For instance, if I were to argue that no employee of PSA would EVER attempt to pilfer a vintage card and yet I was unaware of what a T206 Magie was, I had no personal contact with any PSA employee, I was unaware of PSA hiring practices and I had never even visited PSA "headquarters," that might be a good indication that I was arguing more for effect than out of respect for reason.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>botn</b><p>Hi Dan<BR><BR>You are correct that we do not really know one another but I know many people who do speak highly of you, which is why I wanted to help.<BR><BR>I did speak with Charlie about this matter the other day as part of a conversation on another matter. I do not feel that it would be appropriate or fair to either of you for me to discuss what was said in that conversation before PSA has had their opportunity to complete their investigation.<BR><BR>I also called Steve Rocchi, President of GAI and former President of PSA, to discuss the internal controls that he had established while at PCGS and PSA. In that conversation he gave me a very detailed description of the grading process from the time that packages are picked up at the PO Box. Without knowing that I had even spoke to Steve, Charlie did tell me that the process employed while Steve was President, is still in use at PSA and PCGS.<BR><BR>A couple of people have brought up a great point. A few posts on this or any other board is not enough to exonerate or condemn PSA of negligence resulting in a $6,000 loss to you. At this point I have made no conclusions based on what I have been told. I have merely been gathering information. <BR><BR>Rest assured that while Joe and Charlie have not called back, and Charlie will not really be able to because he is no longer head of Customer Service, they are working on a resolution. I give you my word that you are not being avoided or cast aside. They will reply. Again, Peter in Customer Service is not the final authority on this matter. A decision of this nature will have to come from Joe. <BR><BR>From personal experience I have certainly had my share of problems and complaints about/with PSA but I still think that they are a good grading service and I still endorse the use of their service along with GAI and SGC. Even at my most contentious they have always tried to do what was best for both of us.<BR><BR>Best,<BR>Greg<BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Thanks again Greg, I really do appreciate what you are doing. Peter told me the decision was final and that PSA was finished with the matter and that the "executives" agreed with him so I assumed that meant Joe and the rest. I also feel that PSA, SGC and Global which I am not too familiar with but I like what I see, are the leaders and are decent companies. I by no means feel PSA is out to rip anyone off purposely but I do feel my unique situation obviously exploited a weakness in their system and that I was brushed aside based on Peter's final call.<br><br> Thanks to all that have said good things about me, and Greg, your last post at least bought me a comfotable night's sleep tonight I hope since it was some relief.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Seems like a pretty darn expensive card to me. . . <BR><BR>You are correct that PSA has been handling this stuff for years, which makes their lack of a systematic record of their activities all the worse. Casinos have extensive systems to record the activities of their employees AND have personnel structures that avoid granting single individuals sole responsibility for money handling. These systems are hardly revolutionary and they are not secret--there is practically a documentary/travelogue a day on the Travel Channel about these systems. The card services trade on the public trust in their honesty. This can only be fostered by convincing the public that the service takes the same care of their cards as the owners would.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>TBob</b><p>First off, I HAVE dealt with Dan in the past and know him to be soldily reputable and trustworthy. If Dan tells me he sent a T206 Magie and even has the image of the card, I believe him, whether or not he had the Pope personally witness the card being sealed in the package and submitted or not. Second, who the hell thinks a 6k card is not a "high dollar card????" What universe are you living in? <BR>I have had my own run-in with a grading card company, though not PSA. The slabbers of the world are quick to point the finger and deny liability. Cards come back in lesser condition or marked or mangled or worse yet don't come back at all and somehow it is the veracity of the submitter which is called in to question. It is a damn shame that Dan is out 6k because of a mistake (maybe) by an employee which borders on fraud and is at least extreme negligence. We have given too much importance in our hobby to the all-powerful slabbed grading system. I would personally take the opinion of a Pete Calderon or a Leon Luckey or any of the other hobbyists on this board as to the legitimacy or aletration of a vintage card over some twinkie eater who is busy thinking about his date with Tiffany that night and has better things to think about and do then carefully and accurately grade a card from someone who doesn't fit the profile of a frequent submitter or high rolling company. <BR>Sorry if I am ticked and sound a little peeved but Dan is a good guy and if I had just experienced the loss of a card worth $6,000.00 and was impliedly (or overtly) called a liar, I would be on the edge. The bottom line is I will never again submit a card for grading by mail to any card grading service. If you want to buy a "raw" card from me on ebay, I'll happily provide unretouched and detailed scans, but I will never submit any cards to a grading company even though I know the net result will be a higher yield on ebay for the card. Losing my business will be just a drop in the bucket to the slabbists, but Dennis Purdy was right on the money so long ago when he published his article in VCBC condemning the grading companies. I will still buy cards which have been slabbed (if they appear to MY eye to be o.k.) but never again will I submit one. <BR>Just my 2 cents, fire away...
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Glen V</b><p>I'll admit I've skipped parts of this thread. Forgive me if I get the facts wrong, but... Does PSA really video tape every package being opened. If they don't have the video tape, it seems like their defense is rather weak.<BR><BR>Changing subjects, why doesn't VCBC republish the grading article. It was by far their most popular, and the #7 issue is the only one that has ever sold out. Maybe an updated version?
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>TBOB, thanks bunches for the support! I really do appreciate it!<br><br>Glen, I was told by a customer service lady that there were cameras directly behind each receiver. Then when I brought this up to Joe Orlando, he stated that there were NOT cameras behind each receiver but that there were cameras scattered all over and that he would have his operations manager check the filming of my box. Well then mr. personality called me to crush me and said there were no cameras, no film, and that the card was never there and they were "FIRM" on that. WHAT A RUN AROUND! They may have cameras there but then didn't bother to check them. Yes I am miserable over this, I am out $6K, been considered a liar and a scammer by a supposedly professional, customer service based company.<br><br>To make matters worse, I am hearing that 1 of our publications wants no part of this story, which was going to be 1 of my only means of retaliation. dan.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Dan,<BR><BR>Stay vigilant. You have many supporters on this forum and elsewhere.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>thanks MW, that is what keeps me going!! take care, dan.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Al Zouky</b><p>My last submission was presented in person at the Ft. Washington Show. The rep checked every card against my list and I double checked it as well. Several weeks later, I got a call from PSA that the 1951 Hank Sauer card was missing. They had no idea where it could have been misplaced. They reimbursed me $65 for the card and have no clue how the card was misplaced.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p>Joe Orlando's response from the CU forum:<BR><BR><b><i><BR>Tuesday June 10, 2003 10:58 AM <BR><BR>Hello All,<BR><BR>I just wanted to make something very clear about this situation:<BR><BR>There is absolutely NO evidence that this card was ever sent to PSA. While PSA is certainly capable of making a mistake, in this situation, no mistake was made. <BR><BR>There were no documents that even referred to the card in the package and, let me ask the users this question, "Would any of you send a $6,000 card with no tracking capability or insurance?" The card was not registered, insured or sent by any method such as Fed Ex or UPS, etc. where it could be tracked.<BR><BR>Unless I am missing something, we have no responsibility in this situation - period. I am not making a judgement about the character of the submitter here, I am merely making a call based on the evidence presented. There is no evidence that this card ever existed.<BR><BR>PSA has made it a policy to compensate customers where certain mistakes are made and we stand behind that policy today.<BR><BR>Sincerely, <BR><BR>-------------------------<BR>Joe Orlando <BR><BR></i></b><BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>carew4me</b><p>According to what I am reading from JO, PSA has no culpability in this matter.<BR><BR>The card as mailed, seemed to violate most rules clearly stated on the submission form.<BR><BR>Unless JO is flat out lying I would grades Dan stupidity a 10.<BR><BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>In response to Joe's garbage and this other gent, I have had a registered package and ripped open by a postal employee, what is Joe's response to why the other $1500 worth of T206's that were received were not insured???? I have tracking, I shipped priority with signature confirmation. I have just shipped $7800 worth of cards to JC the same way and a $4000 E.R. Williams set priority signature confirmation to Rhys. Both of these individuals can vouch for this. Over my many years of experience, I have found the safest way to ship is this way yet not enticing a $12 per hour postal employee from ever ripping open another one of my packages. I have the scans from the registered box that was delivered empty and barehanded ripped open. I also have the word of JC and Rhys who are 2 well respected collectors.<br><br> So my only stupidity here was trusting a trash company with no customer service who has had this problem several times before (thanks for the many emails I am receiving by others who were ripped off by this) and decides not to do anything about it! Watch for my articles and customer awareness and hopefully dateline as well who I have already contacted. Let the games begin! You hosed the wrong dude this time!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>that last post is me again. dan
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Again! I have tracking via priority signature confirmation, Joe is lying! I have the emails where the card was sold if returned graded, Joe never asked to see these or anything else. I have the scan of this card and the other 15 dated May 17th which Joe also never asked to see or cared about. I have my original note with both submission numbers written on it. I have tons of things showing I shipped this card, and anyone who knows me knows I am not going to go through all of this crap to try to steal money from a large company. I have a current Top Secret clearance through the Army and I have been doing business in this hobby for 34 years. I will gladly post a scan of my tracking slip and anything else. I scanned the card immediately as requested. This is an insult, an outrage, and a down right joke by one sorry company and it's president!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>carew4me</b><p>Dan,<BR>Look at it objectively. You seem yo have a fine reputation and extensive hobby knowledge.<BR>I dont doubt you for one moment.<BR><BR>Legaly however, PSA is under no obligation to you.<BR>You sent the package the way YOU chose too and not the way that PSA CLEARLY states you should.<BR><BR>Anyone, who doesn't have your morales or rep could come up with the same yarn. (and secretly be an SGC employee to boot!)<BR><BR>I will admit Dan, that I sent a small box of cards to be graded in the exact manner you did and they never made it to PSA. Maybe an employee PSA or USPS, preyed upon me too but I have no way of knowing that. I did have insurance however and was re-embursed.<BR><BR>I have since submitted over 10 different invoices in the correct manner without incident.<BR><BR>All I am saying is it would be easy for anyone to claim the conditions you do and hold PSA's rep for ransom in the process.<BR><BR>As far as PSA is concerned, you are not being honest with yourself if you fail to realize the significant positive impact this company has had on the hobby.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>The PSA impact on the hobby is not in question here. Where did that come from? If I hated them, I wouldn't be sending them cards? Are you reading the posts? No package was lost! Package was received and undamaged according to PSA. 5 million or $1 insurance would not be paid. The post office is completely out of this, they did their job and did it properly. PSA admits this by stating that any damaged package is immediately refused and the customer contacted. This boils down to their employees who answered newspaper ads to open boxes are not being watched or filmed as to what they are doing. I have other emails of the same situation yet Peter said "this has never happened, this can't happen, this doesn't happen" Well, it happened! And the post office has NOTHING to do with it! If the package was lost and never arrived, yes, I would eat it. But I work for the government and I have great faith in the postal system as long as an employee is not tempted by $$$$$$$.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>MW</b><p><i><< There is absolutely NO evidence that this card was ever sent to PSA. >></i><BR><BR>Dan, can you post a copy of your receipt for the USPS signature confirmation service? If I'm not mistaken, the actual signature of the person who received the package can be accessed online.<BR><BR><BR><i><< Unless I am missing something, we have no responsibility in this situation - period. >></i><BR><BR>I have reviewed PSA's written policy on this matter and have found three specific restrictions that seem to apply to shipping methods and this particular situation: (see PSA's "Shipping Instructions") <BR><BR><li>"PSA does not accept U.P.S. deliveries – no exceptions!"<BR><BR><li>All Federal Express Shipments must be sent to a specific address (PSA, 700 East Alton Avenue, Santa Ana, CA 92705)<BR><BR><li> "PSA shall have no liability to the customer for any loss or damage while the item is not in the custody or control of PSA if the customer selects their own carrier."<BR><BR><BR>Under the "PSA Grading Terms and Procedures" section, I also see the following applicable statements:<BR><BR>"4) If PSA determines that the customer's card was lost or damaged while in PSA's possession, the customer will be compensated in accordance with PSA's standard procedures and not necessarily based upon the insured value the customer assigned to the card at the time of submission."<BR><BR>"8) It is absolutely essential that cards submitted to PSA be packaged and shipped strictly in accordance with the requirements of the PSA shipping instructions as are in effect from time to time. PSA disclaims any liability whatsoever for any damage to any card shipped or delivered to PSA in a non-conforming manner."<BR><BR><BR>Based on Regulation #4 (above), it would seem that the insurance value, either stipulated on the package or on the submission form, would not be of primary importance in this (and other) cases. Instead, the most important factor would be determining if PSA actually had the item in its possession before it was allegedly lost. To that extent, I think the burden of liability can best be examined by comparing USPS regulations governing its signature confirmation service to safeguards established by PSA to protect the contents of incoming packages.<BR>
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>This is interesting, U.P.S. is not accepted at all, ok I guess they would have refused it and returned it to me, I should have used this carrier! I would still have my card. I will have a scan of the USPS signature confirmation up tonight, I can't do that from work right now. But it can only help so as soon as I get home, I will get that scanned and up. Thanks Dan.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>Jay Miller</b><p>Dan--Save your efforts. There is no way that you can definitively prove that the card was in the box. The only proof could be at their end and since the cameras were not on there is no possible proof. The system is set up so they are never at risk at that stage of the slabbing process on postal submissions. BTW, this is no different than if you sent cards to dealers, auction houses or fellow collectors. Now there's a pleasant thought!
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>You are correct Jay, how can a person prove they packed something and mailed it? It is quite impossible. This is a problem from all angles. Unfortunately, if I would have realized this as I do now, I would have never sent them any cards or anyone else any cards for that matter. I shipped these cards having faith in the poastal service and PSA, only 1 let me down. I will never submit another card again for grading to any company. I have learned a very expensive lesson and my efforts now will be to hurt them for at least $6000.00 Via articles, interviews, word of mouth, yo name it, I know and am respected by alot of people in this hobby and believe me they will all hear about this. Also what bothers really bothers me is the way I was treated from the first phone call to management, as if I was immediately wrong! The case was closed before it was open and I never had a chance.
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>This reminds me so much of problems I had with UPS in the 80s when over $100k worth of material magically disappeared from boxes being sent to me over a 2 month period and UPS treated me like dirt, saying that my clients should pack their stuff better, etc. and would not investigate any possible theft by their employees. I didn't want the insurance money and neithre did my clients. They wanted the items, several of which were one of kind game used items.<BR><BR>Hopefully I've done $100k worth damage to them in the past 15 years, but I doubt it. I do know that I will not ship anything with them ever again. I don't care if the company has changed or not. Pissed of customers have a very long memory<BR><BR>Jay
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Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly
Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>Objectively speaking, I have put myself in their shoes: I am the President of a fairly large company that provides a service. I receive a complaint from a customer, and this part shouldn't matter! A well respected customer who has been doing business in the hobby for 34 years that my company performs the service for. I would immediately identify that there is a problem, have that problem corrected so that this could never happen again, ask my customer what it would take to rectify this. None of this happened, What happened is that I am a liar and trying to scam them.
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