Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson Reinstated by MLB
 

Both are now HOF eligible. Good news for those who have their rookie cards... What is everyone's thoughts here...

Hell hath frozen over!

Long overdue.

Too bad it happened after Pete passed.


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i believe their cards are already HOF priced in!

+1

Yeah, the dude who was hooking up with a 14-15 year old when he was a married 30-something year old can miss me with insisting she was 16 when it started and never crossed state lines and therefore it was legal and cool.

Good for Shoeless Joe, though.

How can they let in a guy that took money to throw World's Series games?

Does it even matter if MLB reinstated them? The Hall of Fame is independent of MLB and as far as I know makes their own rules about induction and eligibility.

At least there will be something else to write about Hall of Fame voting besides whether PEDs should keep someone out.

Evidently the reinstatement is now a new MLB policy that "ineligible ends at death"...it's not specifically for these 2 guys...though political pressure most likely is why this is happening.

Based on current rules, no longer being on the permanently banned list should make them eligible for appearing on a Hall of Fame ballot. At this point, it would presumably be one of the Eras Committees.

Agreed.

A buddy and I were just texting about this. If I were either of their families I would tell the Hall to pound sand.


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Stupidity.

No doubt MLB sees some sort of money making scheme in reinstating them.


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I say continue to keep them out of the HoF.


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Manfred met with Trump last month. In February Trump was tweeting about "pardoning" him. He's spoken about it between then and now. He'll probably have something to tweet about it sometime between now and tomorrow.

Manfred didn't become commish recently, nor is this a new subject of debate.

Full list of those impacted, fwiw...

Eddie Cicotte
Happy Felsch
Chick Gandil
Joe Jackson
Fred McMullin
Swede Risberg
Buck Weaver
Lefty Williams
Joe Gedeon
Gene Paulette
Benny Kauff
Lee Magee
Phil Douglas
Cozy Dolan
Jimmy O’Connell
William Cox (executive)
Pete Rose

Honestly, isn’t some of the current value in most of the Black Sox that they were banned?

Takes a little of the infamy out of their names.

Certainly will be interesting going forward.


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Personally, I'm glad they are both in. Pete was my childhood idol...loved the way he played ("a try hard" as my kids call people like him) and since I was an average to an above average, I tried harder than others to excel.

Of course, later on in life, I learned Pete was not the greatest person in the world...far from it. I walked by the store he used to sign in Vegas and didn't give it much thought to bother to walk in and see him...but none of how I felt about him as an adult changed the way I felt about Pete as a player. Other than Cobb, I'm not sure any player wanted to win more.

None of us are old enough to remember what it was like seeing Jackson play, but I always felt like he got a raw deal more so than Rose. They say Jackson wasn't educated, was probably taken advantage of financially by Comiskey and my guess is that in the end, he didn't curtail his play based on his stats in the WS.

So better or worse, I'm glad they are both eligible...If they get in the Hall, great...they certainly deserve it based on their play.

Let's face it...we all have our skeletons....

Why would Hal Chase not be included?

Commish office didn't exist. He technically may be HOF eligable under HOF (different org) rules now, though.

Yes, this only makes them eligible to be on the ballot. Whether they get in or not is another question.

Ironically, you can probably place bets on whether they will be elected or not.

I'm really glad that Pete and Jackson are now eligible. In the mid-1990s I took my daughter to a card show in central Connecticut and we were in line to get Pete's autograph. She was about 7 at the time which was the same age as Pete's daughter. He told my daughter that he had a daughter about the same age as her, stopped all his signing to get his suitcase that was under the table, opened it and pulled out a picture of his daughter to show her. I thought it was an incredible moment and I have admired the guy ever since.
As for Jackson, I think his scarcer cards, like some M101s, will explode in value if he is elected to the HOF.

Have to wonder how much the card prices will plummet on the players on the list. Jackson may be an exception. Still, he did take the $5000.00.

I wonder what this means for Hal Chase - IIRC he was never formally banned, but it was assumed because of his gambling history. (see this was answered above, but still leaving)

He of the 23.0 WAR?

I can see why you would presume so, but my guess is it's bad news for those who have their rookie cards.

Why?

I think this great and good for baseball right now.

It only happened *because* Pete passed away. He took one for the proverbial team.

If they were priced as if they were Hall of Famers and they don't get in now, prices could go down.

The HOF *should* be independent, but they've always done whatever MLB says.

They will never get in!!

If Jackson and Rose don't get it, nothing will change. Collectors will continue to view them as persecuted individuals within the sport.

Anyone with any sense in their head understands that both of them absolutely deserve to be first ballot HOFers based on their statistical careers.

This is publicity, any way it turns out, and can't possibly be bad for the value of their cards. At least, I can't see how it would be.

So much to say but Leon politely reminds us to avoid politics so I’ll just say, disappointed in the news today for my game of baseball and leave it at that.

Jackson and Weaver were always gray area but Cicotte plunking Morrie Rath to start the Series (and the fix) should never be pardoned in any way.

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Considering how Manfred & MLB have bent the knee and embraced gambling in their sport I see no reason these two should be kept out of the Hall for gambling, that horse has left the barn.
I'm ambivalent on Rose since he's not a very likeable human but Joe should definitely be in.
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Long overdue. Bet Rose is chuckling up there..

And still signing autographs, probably.

I still see a difference between embracing gambling for non-participants and embracing players and coaches who bet on games that they can directly influence.

I embrace the stock market. I condemn insider trading.

I also see betting against your team as an order of magnitude worse than other forms of cheating that affect the integrity of the game. If winning is the primary objective of a team sport like baseball, then purposely losing is a cardinal sin. At least steroid users, bat corkers, spitballers, and players banging on trash cans did so with the goal of achieving the best possible outcome on the field. They should get an asterisk for gaining an unfair advantage, sure, but there's a special place in baseball hell for people who tank for money.

:D:D

I was under the impression that Pete took the ban because it meant that the info on his illicit drug sales to cover gambling debts wouldn't have to be publicized.

Great news for Shufflin Phil tho.

Or down there

Looks like my "Free Lee Magee" campaign finally had the desired effect...

Financial decision - His own fault he was banned but he should’ve stayed banned , I know lifetime ban blah blah blah but have some integrity - Pete Rose was not allowed to be part of baseball while he was alive but now that he’s dead baseball can and will exploit him - Pete Rose night already scheduled for tomorrow .
https://www.mlb.com/press-release/pete-rose-night
Seems they forgot to do the bobble heads

Hardly the first time Cincinnati has had a Pete Rose night

I’m sure he is a regular at Coaches Corner.

I’ve never understood the argument that MLB accepting advertising dollars from Gaming Companies somehow makes gambling within the sport a lesser offense. It’s pretty simple, every major sports entity both professional and amateur forbids sports wagering and the cardinal sin is beating on your own sport/team. It’s not an ethical dilemma without an answer. My company accepts advertising dollars from Liquor and Beer companies, that shouldn’t somehow morally protect me from action if I’m drinking on the job. I wouldn’t somehow be in some deep ethos predicament if Jeff in accounting was fired for pounding airplane bottles of Tito’s all day long just because we advertise InBev corp.

But really Jeff, you need to cool a bit. You aren’t fooling anyone.

Yes the HOF is seperate from MLB and could have just said they would still be ineligible...but the HOF came out today as well and said they would allow the banned players to be eligible. They could be on the 2027 Eras Committee ballot at the earliest. BC they changed up the Eras Committees a few years ago hey would all be on the same ballot.

I think these guys items are already at HOF values or better...the only one I see that could get a bump is Eddie Cicotte...he has an outside shot at HOF and he is the lowest priced items of the 8 Men Out.


Is it possible 8 men out prices outside Jackson will drop in value???

Also this was not a new argument...Joe Jackson supporters have been arguing the ban should end at death for decades now and it all fell on deaf ears...

Also I was today years old when I realized Sherry Magee and Lee Magee were not the same person.

If the Hall of Fame truly wanted to show they were independent from MLB, they never would have changed their rules years ago right after Rose was banned and made him ineligible for the ballot. Since that's now their rule, it wouldn't make sense to keep him ineligible from being on a future ballot.

Being banned from baseball-related activities is perfectly reasonable.

Being banned from the museum about baseball history never made any sense whatsoever.

People like Jackson and Rose should have been in immediately, but their plaques should have described their time in baseball -- the good and the bad -- and let the fans/museum patrons decide how they feel about it.

I still don't think Rose is likely to be elected. As the documentary on him showed, he really doesn't have very many friends in baseball. The voters have kept Bonds, Schilling and A-rod out. I don't feel like Rose had a better relationship with baseball than they did.

May depend on who is voting.

I don’t know what voters think or who will be voting but I wouldn’t think Rose has a lot of fans in the people who are currently voting. He is recently deceased and from what I remember from the documentary during his visit to the Reds stadium when he was welcomed back he had a hard time finding friends to join him.

Well since you really want to know....

A pox on all those whose main interest in their rookie cards is profiting from them.

:mad:

Funny thing is, many on this board are perfectly willing to throw serious money at Shoeless Joe cards to get their Black Sox fix.

Brian

^ This! And a pox on the Hall of Fame for the hypocrisy of claiming to be independent of MLB yet acting as MLB's lapdog.

:mad:

I believe Pete Rose was guilty of far greater crimes than betting on baseball.

Still another 6 hours to go for 5/13/25 and already 30 - 1963 Topps Pete Rose rookie cards sold on eBay today. This compares to the typical 1-2 daily. At least this time nobody died but how crazy/sick are we collectors? And these are all 4-figure cards, not everyone can afford one.

I agree with you, but NBA teams purposely lose games toward the end of each season when they're out of contention, simply to try to get a better draft lottery position; and I'm sure the same thing is going on in the other pro sports. What about players on those teams?

Steve

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We've come a long way from Bowie Kuhn, motivated by a desire to distance Major League Baseball from any trace of gambling, banned retired superstars Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle from working for both major league clubs and gambling casinos at the same time. And they were just shaking hands and kissing babies in their roles at the Casino.

The Black Sox and Joe Jackson were acquitted in a 1921 court, it was Chicago so you can't put a lot of stock in that decision but acquitted none the less. Kennesaw Mountain Landis chose to ban them to send a message to "Gambling" that baseball was off limits.

And now we have Sportsbooks in over a dozen Stadiums with more to come, owned by Fanatics, DraftKings, and FanDuel, to name a few, the same fine folks that lined the pockets of congress to change the gambling laws in this country.

MLB and Manfred have embraced gambling to the point that the ESPN commentators and play by play guys, are quoting betting lines.

It's insidious. Gambling ruins lives, families, and futures. There's a reason Kuhn and Landis took such a hard line on it.

I don't think gambling should be any part of baseball, including advertising, but if baseball is going to cozy up to the gamblers then Joe Jackson should by all means be the first voted in the Hall. Hell, they should retroactively induct him in the 1936 class and make it the first 6 instead of the first 5.

Back in the day such things, I don't think, were viewed as seriously, particularly if a famous athlete was involved.

Yes, and it's really sad to see a whole cohort of younger fans who literally cannot enjoy a game without making at least one bet from their mobile phones.

Dunno that Jackson was better than Lajoie or Speaker who made the second class. I think his notoriety has made him perhaps greater in people's minds than his actual numbers.

It’s bullshit , it’s a chickenshit power move. MLB deemed him undesirable and unworthy but when it comes to making a dime let’s ride him , he made some bad decisions for sure but he bust his ass for 25 years playing baseball and MLB wants to benefit from his efforts - how cute .
A Bunch of amorals in a think tank wondering how to increase revenue - “ how about that Pete rose fella he’s dead now he can’t do nothing about it , we throw his family some peanuts and make a killing “
He was unworthy while he was alive but now that he’s dead he’s welcome - Did MLB’s perception of a change ? of course not but now he’s a cash cow .

Yeah we all like to say how great things were back in the day, but the level of shielding female high schoolers from older predatory males was not one of those things. Pete could’ve been Wander Franco … except Franco was much younger.

Checked. His actual numbers are pretty damn good.

Is that you Marty Brennaman?

Who said they weren't? It's still my belief his valuations which have gone off the charts reflect his notoriety as well as his player value. Had he been plain old Joe Jackson and not Shoeless Joe, and had he just sustained a career ending injury in 1920 and not been part of the Black Sox, I don't think you would see the astronomical numbers.

Bill James, for example, rates him 66 (and that's as of 2003 so would be much lower now presumably).

I agree with this 1st paragraph. The Bill James list is just ripe for debate though.

Oh, no question about that.

"Crimes"? :rolleyes: Don't be silly.

Which is why sexual mores including age of consent vary over time and across both cultures and jurisdiction. They're not by any means universal laws such as "Thou shalt not kill/steal etc."

I agree wholeheartedly with all of this!

The Sporting News rated Shoeless Joe Jackson as 35 way back in 1998.

Well, he's a convicted felon for tax evasion, for one.

Joe was already on the ballot, receiving 2 votes in 1936. And then 2 more in 1946.

Which we all know is the #1 crime in every government's eyes.

:(

I dunno, man. Maybe I'm a prude and a cultural philistine, but when you're a married 34 year old with kids and are accused of statutory rape -- and your best defense is (i) that the sex only started when the girl was 16 and (ii) the sex only occurred in a state where the age of consent happens to be 16 -- you're basically a douchebag. If they elect guys like this -- who were also banned for betting on baseball and convicted of tax evasion -- in the Hall of Fame, then they should also elect guys like Dale Murphy into the Hall.

So, I was curious how collectors felt about the news yesterday, minus the color commentary… if given a simple binary only choice regarding Rose’s eligibility for the HOF, would your position generally be:

“It’s about time, long overdue”

or

“Sad day for baseball, bad decision by MLB”

I am quite surprised that that the tally of these 2 options was so heavily weighted in one direction:

80% selected “overdue”

Of course, there is nuance between these choices and lots of comments followed below the choices above. But I was more curious directionally from the vintage collector community how “we” all felt.

I would have guessed much closer to even split - maybe influenced by our own Rose card collections and visions of value escalation??