Soaking (water only) - 1915 Cracker Jack?
 

I recently picked up a great 1915 CJ card here from a board member (thx Ian, great transaction) and wanted to ask this group about anyone’s experience with water soaking to try and clean some dirt from the back of the card.

I don’t want to get into the chemical washes that are out there but just distilled water, light touch cue tip to try and remove the dirt from the back. I’ve only done a few to remove glue, which seems to work well.

My question - I believe the 1915 CJ card stock is a little more hearty than 1914 but wanted to ask if anyone knows of risks like print running, etc. Not sure I want to try without first a test - but I hardly have any 1915 Cracker Jack Commons around to test this on!

Anyone ever give a water bath to a ‘15 CJ and live to tell about it?

Thx all

Jeff

Ive soaked 15' cj with stellar results.

Have any before/after pics?

One of my luckiest vintage bb finds...at the star of the north antique show in st paul, mn. A guy with a display case had a bunch of items from an old scrapbook...he recalled there was another CJ card of a big name hofer that was sold...in the fist 2 pics u see it as i saw it in the display case. 3rd pic wlters swimming with the fishes...and the final result. I knew it was real but it appeared to have back damage. After I got it home I realized it was positive paper on the back...and I got to business. It came off quite easily with no physical prodding and the card front does appear cleaner for sure. It's amazing to see all the dirt in the water after the fact. I have since purchased a large, heavy book press specifically for the occasional card soak.

Voila!

nice results!

I'll join in on the chorus. About 30 years ago, at the White Plains show, I picked up a scrapbook sheet with eight 1915 Crackerjacks. Among them were a Rabbit Maranville rookie and a Branch Rickey. Fronts looked perfect, but the cards were firmly glued onto the page.

A quick soak in my bathroom sink in cold water lifted all the cards off cleanly. I believe I paid about $20 for the whole lot, a pretty good price at the time even if I hadn't gotten the cards off!:)

Sorry, no before/after pictures.

And if you soak it long enough, those pesky caramel stains from 1915 will also disappear, but the card might also disintegrate... :p

Such thin stock... good luck with the soak.

Is it dirt or oxidation ?? Oxidation will make old cards look "dirty" and soaking them in water will do nothing.

Looks like dirt (and scuffing too). Here is Eddie’s backside (so to speak)

It's likely none of that will come off without doing further damage.
There are areas where it's been tried and there's some surface loss.

The stock is porous and the dirt gets into it and usually won't come out.

Someone has already tried to clean that card, just FYI.

As far as soaking them in distilled water is concerned, it won't damage them at all. 15 CJs soak just fine. Use warm water for better results. Put it in an ultrasonic cleaner filled with the warm distilled water for even better results, if you want. Be very careful though with a qtip on the back while it's wet. Wet paper is very vulnerable. Any amount of abrasion while it's wet will result in surface damage/loss.

Thx for the technique tips… and how can you tell someone already tried to clean this one? Just curious what you see.

Nice card, but the back has been damaged (paper loss) and I see no point in soaking it.

You guys have differing vantage points on this. One wants to get rid of some of the dirt, another thinks don't soak because it won't increase the value of the card.

Soak the card.

Truth is that any of us who have 1914 or 1915 Cracker Jack cards most likely have ones that were soaked. The old collectors would advertise in city newspapers that they'd be at such and such motel or hotel on such and such weekend buying old baseball cards. I've spoken in person with several that did that. People would come to the hotel room listed in the ad with all kinds of cards. Many would be pasted down in scrapbooks from years ago. The collectors would tear the pages out of the scrapbook, lay the sheets in the bathtub, then run water into the tub. Overnight the cards would loosen and float off. If any of you have a CJ with great corners, the corners were probably spared corner dings because they were on a scrapbook page for 40 or 50 years.

Cracker Jacks soak wonderfully well. Some don'ts: Don't soak for a week or two (long soaks would lead to a bit of fading), overnight should be enough. Don't soak if there's water soluble pen ink on the card, it will bleed and spread on the card you're soaking (quickly blotting could minimize that). Don't go scrubbing on CJ paper, they are fragile, especially the 14's (T206s are on sturdier paper and can survive that better).

Cracker Jack cards soak very well indeed. And if you want less dirt on the card, go for it! You're not working on a surviving copy of the Declaration of Independence. Most of the CJs that survive today were soaked before many of us were born.

THAT Collins card looks like it has a dirty scuff on the back, as if it fell to the floor and was stepped upon. Ground in dirt might not loosen and release from the paper. Some dirt might. A soak won't hurt that card, and it may well get rid of some of the dirt. What Doc Ulman and AK said in their posts above is absolutely correct. If you want to take a shot and getting rid of some dirt, soak that card.

I would leave well enough alone. You're going to do more harm than good.

Peter, how many times have you soaked an E145?

The OP appears to have no experience soaking any card at all. Does he even know how to prevent cards from warping? A Cj of a hall of famer does not sound to me like a wise place to start just to get a little dirt out, possibly. I am not questioning your thoughts, as an expert, on soaking CJs generally.

Well, that is a good point. Practice on something cheap first. Find a crappy CJ on ebay and give it a shot.

Scratch that advice from the previous post - there are no CHEAP CJs on fleabay :eek:

I once tried to remove ink from a CJ. Didn't go well.

Went from a PSA 4mk to a PSA 1mk. Doh!

Peter, being the precise and exacting person that you are, you didn't answer my question. Perchance it was because you have never soaked a Cracker Jack, you have no experience in soaking any card, and you deem soaking a card in only water to be altering a card and deceitful.

The collector who started this thread, Jeff G, was talking about water only versus dirt on a Cracker Jack card, a card that easily soaks. You're just again taking exception to something I've posted, ignoring the fact that you have no experience in the matter and your response conveys your bias instead of what you know. Jeff, you should be good to soak that card in water. Keep in mind that soaking isn't scrubbing.

Ink on a Cracker Jack, which wasn't on the card that CJ posted, AJ, is a totally different matter. Most ink in use around the WW I era were fountain, and they'd be using a permanent ink that won't soak, or a water-soluble ink that would bleed all over the card during a soak. Ball point pens usually have ink that is oily, you'd need a nonpolar solvent to tackle that, and you'd be likely to make a mess of the card. I don't think ball point pens would have been used very often for card signing in 1914/15. Ball point pens became readily available just after WW II. AJ, that looks like someone soaked the card in water then rubbed on the ink, creating a smudge. Nonpolar solvents, Bestine (rubber cement solvent), heptane, hexane, isopropyl or ethyl alcohol that is 90% or more the alcohol... they would work. But that looks like it was signed in the 50s or 60s, with a ballpoint pen, so that oily ink smudge was a likely outcome. I think I would have left that alone, but anyone could say that after seeing the results. NB, using that list of chemical warfare weapons a few sentences back, those bad boys will diminish the bright red fronts, the ink of the letters, and the image. Even if you slowly and carefully dabbed your solvent of choice with a Q-Tip, it would instantly permeate the paper and affect whatever is on the other side. I think it's a horizontal pose, so you could tell that there is a faded line from the top of his head down to his bellybutton. But again... the original poster was talking about using water only.

Jeff G, I've soaked about 30 Cracker Jacks. Zero problems doing that. It's worth mentioning for whoever reads this tomorrow or years from now, be careful with the 1915 cards, and VERY careful with the 1914 Cracker Jacks. The 1915 cards are fragile, and the 1914s are thinner, more like paper instead of cardboard. Be gentle with those.

Talk about reading into a post, you are way off base Frank. I have no objection at all to soaking in water, my only concern was that someone completely inexperienced might not want to start with a CJ Hall of Fame card. I pesonally have not soaked a CJ, I've done some nonsports with mixed results. My post was solely motivated by concern that the OP with no experience not make his card worse, not any so-called bias. But as long as you are dispensing good advice, perhaps you can advise Jeff of good practice so the card dries properly and doesn't warp? I've seen CJ's soaked by others that ended up looking like the waves at Waikiki.

Jeff
Soak away!!
I've never had a reason to soak my CJs as I like them the way they are...but the card is yours and you seem like you are leaning that way.

When you do soak your card please post the results!

OP Jeff...

If you've never soaked a card, try it with a T206 that has no ink pen or rubber stamp marks on it. Soak that. Then go through the drying process. That could get you familiar with the process. Then try your nice 1915 CJ Johnson. I'm not worried about you messing that card up. But others are, and I concede that it's possible to cause harm.

Distilled water is not necessary, use your tap water unless it has iron, rust color, or obvious particulates.

If that paper scrap loosens, once you're done soaking, run tap water on the card at a gentle temperature, neither cold nor hot, and gently rub a finger where the paper was, if you feel the flour paste still there, the flow of the water should soon wash that away.

Try to use a clear glass for soaking. If you see dirt or dust settled in the glass, or if the water no longer looks clean (because the water has acquired a coffee ting to it) then lift out the card, rinse the glass, then add water and card. (It just occurred to me that with water in glass with card in water, sometimes with a wet finger I'll move my finger across the front and back of the card, usually when it seems that there are a few air bubbles clinging to the card with surface tension. By touching those bubbles away I then have water adjacent to the entire card surface.)

Drying. 1- Nothing is exactly like anything else. 2- Analogies are useful to understand an item or process, if it has similarities with what the original something is. So, think of a bale of straw or hay. If you soaked a bale in water (ignoring that it would be much heavier than before) you could squash that bale much flatter than it was when dry. The paper of that 1915 Johnson Cracker Jack isn't solid, and it has a measurable thickness. If you soak it in a glass of water, then squash it in a vise to flatten it, then you've weakened the paper fibers and many collectors (and most graders), could notice, just by feel, that this card has been flattened. The point is to not try to mash the water out of that card. Put the glass you used on a smooth dishcloth or a couple of paper towels, then lean the rinsed card against the glass. A fair amount of water will gravitate down to the paper towels. Then lay the card down flat on a paper towel, and add paper towel over it, then blot on that with your hand.

Now you have some choices. Some paper towels have flat surfaces, some have a texture with swirls or some decorative pattern. You don't want to have your card conform itself to that pattern, so get something smooth. Printer paper will warp and unevenly absorb water, leading to wrinkles. you could change printer or copier paper often, but I find that it takes lots of paper changing. I usually use cardstock. You can get that on Amazon, at Walmart or Target, other places. Quarter that with scissors, maybe use double layers. I stack up several hardbound books; one on the bottom, then my blotting cardstock with the card sandwiched in between, then the rest of the books. I find the stack of books help me not forget about drying that card. I can change the blotting paper after a few hours, and again a few hours later. Too much weight pressing down on the card will unduly flatten it out and potentially transfer some card ink onto the blotting paper (this occurs very seldom, but if you use the weight of a safe, bookshelf, or couch that could happen).

Be patient, small steps are better than trying to rush the process. Private Message me here and I'll answer questions as you encounter them.

No need to keep y’all in suspense… splish, splash, Eddie’s taking a bath. His backside deserves a little less dirt.

So far, so good… lots of dirt removed, as we had hoped. Scuffed areas remain, of course. But looking good after first try. As many experienced here have suggested, taking it slow and gentle.

Will post updated photos when done.

Thx all - several many detailed and experienced replies, and a few well intended words of caution. It’s all helpful, so thx again.

Photo update about this time tomorrow night

(Bonus - get to hold a raw CJ for the first time)

Excited to see the results!

Good luck!

Have you researched a good technique to dry out the card properly, Jeff? I can't give any advice here, but I do recall some threads in the past where members explained some tricks of the trade.

Looking forward to seeing the end result.

Frank offered a detailed guide just a few posts above.

I have a slightly different take on the drying process.
(This is for Topps-era cards, so may not be pertinent to a 1915 CJ.)

After I soak something, I'll sandwich it in a folded paper towel, weigh it down a bit on an extremely flat surface and wait a short amount of time. This basically soaks up all of that 'extra' water right from the get-go.
Then (with that paper towel now sopping wet) I'll replace it with a dry one and weigh it the f*ck down in a permanent position and leave it for days - without replacing the paper towel again - until it's dry (and flat).

I prefer this one and done (even though it's actually a quick two :eek:) scenario, because the process of removing any wet, pliable card and trying to resituate it inside of a different (dry) paper towel without messing things up opens the door to human error.

In my book, the less interaction with a wet card the better.


ETA: it obviously works better if the sun shines relentlessly (like out here in CA) or if it's summertime and/or always hot enough.

I just soaked a group of about 20 mid-1950s Topps and Bowman with mixed results attempting to remove tape. Whoever taped these cards used awful tape, like masking tape only super thick and strong. The tape came off during the soak, but where the tape lifted off came with it. Cards pretty much ruined, but I guess they look better with the tape gone.

Paper towels and pressure. This! +1
Overnight for step 2 usually suffices.
Screw down acrylic holders are f*cking great for Step 2

Paper towels and pressure. This! +1
Overnight for step 2 usually suffices.
Screw down acrylic holders are f*cking great for Step 2 after the initial squeeze. :D

Ok, here is the big reveal… I have to say, I like it! Of course, the card back scuffing is still present but I think it presents much nicer without that ground in dirt on it.

(First 2 pictures are the “before” obviously)

I will be keeping and enjoying the Eddie now that’s been de-soiled. I will probably send him in for an SGC tux to match my other 2 1915 CJs. Ironically, I am prepared to get a lower grade but that’s ok as I like the look much better this way.

Thx again all for the advice along the way - and my bonus of handling a raw CJ for the first time out of a slab was kind of cool and educational too.

Jeff

Did you lose some of the lettering on the back?

Yes, it looks like more lettering came off.

Yep, lost a few more letters in the process... for me, its an OK trade-off. If I originally had NO words or letters missing, I might be disappointed.

But for me, I already had some word and letter loss PLUS a big dark dirt stain.

Now, the dirt is largely gone along with a few more letters. Was an OK risk for me with a net plus in the end for me/my PC. I expect that the grade will take a dip but I'm OK with that.

Thanks again, all, for the extensive thoughts and advice/experience. Now, add me to those who have given a CJ a bath.

But I thought soaking doesn't alter a card. :eek:

It would be interesting if our experts weigh in on why this might have happened?

I'm by no means an expert, having precisely zero soaks to my name. Of any issue.

But I almost wonder if some of those letters were just barely hanging on, with the dirt acting as a bit of glue to sort of help to hold them in place. Take away the dirt acting as glue, and some small bits of the paper come off with it.

Agreed. Zero soaks here as well but doesnt that back already look rather compromised from what Travis said was a prior cleaning?

Don't know that I'm any "expert" but I'd guess he did at least little light rubbing or dabbing on that area.

That would be my non-expert guess as well.

yep, he did... very light. released dirt and a few extra letters here and there.

This was one of those times where you should have left it alone.

I said that in post 16 and was rebuked.

Yes you were unnecessarily shamed repeatedly for suggesting it. Was not too hard to see the outcome. Well on the bright side at least it was not a Jackson.

OP was obviously too trigger-happy to soak that card without trying his hand on something else as was suggested, but it's his card and he says he's fine with the damage, so that's that.

And yet somehow, you still passed the bar exam?

From abrasion. Not from soaking. Hope that helps.

Really? You'd honestly prefer the before photo than the after photo? I think most people would definitely prefer the after pic.

Go take a bath with your altered cards.

I provided you with irrefutable proof that paper getting wet and then drying fundamentally changes the structure of the paper. Soaking a card alters both the structure and the appearance of a card, which happen to be the two most fundamental aspects to card condition. So if you can play mental gymnastics to justify your alterations, more power to you. But don't insult my intelligence in the process. It is YOU who couldn't pass the bar exam with that logic.

"Hur dur, I'm altering the appearance and structure of a card to make it more valuable, hur dur, but I'm not altering it." :rollseyes:

Peter, how many Cracker Jacks have you held under a black light to see if they fluoresce?

Back in the late 80s, when I got back into cards, blacklights and loupes weren't in wide use at all. Now I have both, and have examined all my pre-war. If any are indeed fake, they're so good I can't tell. Good enough for me.

At least 17 but I will have to check my notes.

Thanks again for the opinions and help with this - this card is for my PC and I happen to like the look better this way but understand it may not be the same view held by all… and that’s ok. 99% of the time, I’ll only be looking at Eddie from his front side anyway so this is largely moot.

(Now, where is that “turn off comments” button so I can help prevent this thread from deteriorating into a Net54 scrum?)

In my opinion, it does look better, sir!

the back wasn’t gonna look good no matter what - it’s either gonna have some paper loss or it’s gonna look like somebody wiped their butt with it

It's almost as if you believe your own bullshit

I don't think even you believe yours.

This Ohio Lawyer is another one of these guys who is going to argue anything, no matter. Just ignore him. They hate that.

Pot, meet Kettle

I admit I enjoy a debate. Unfortunately, you and snowball aren't very self-aware.

Purists don't like to hear this, but most prewar (tobacco/candy) cards were once glued into albums and this is the reason why they survived this long. In other words, keeping them in albums is what preserved them. And soaking them is the reason we all enjoy these cards today. So, I'm all for it. :)

I'm all for it, too. As long as we acknowledge that we are altering it by soaking it. Sometimes, altering something is necessary to preserve it. Doesn't make it less of an alteration, though.

Curious - does removing a card from the pack alter it?

Touching it with your fingers with no gloves on?

Seems like the bar could be really low when it comes to altering.

Is removing something that wasn't part of the original card as issued truly altering? Using chemicals to do so, then sure. But plain old water, cotton swabs and the like? Is polishing a wax stain off the glossy surface also altering?

The bar can be anywhere we want it to be. For me, the distinction is are the things done to the card intended to enhance the condition or appeal of the card or not. If I drop a card and ding a corner, I have altered the card by definition. That isn't the type of alteration I'm concerned with. It's those alterations that increase the perceived market value of a card but aren't disclosed to potential buyers that I have a problem with.

Brushing something off the surface of a card is fundamentally different from removing something from within the very fibers of the paper. Water penetrates the surface of paper and removes things that have become intertwined with those fibers.

But this has been discussed ad nauseum here lately. I see no need for us to have this debate again. No one is changing anyone's mind.

I guess for me, you're right that alterations could be just about anything, including simply breathing on the card.

But if we're going to use it in a pejorative fashion, then it seems like calling everything an alteration might cause the word to no longer be meaningful.

Just for the record, I'm not in favor of altering cards, and the only cards that I've altered have been those cards that people are okay with altering - trimming down a box cut card like a Bazooka, for example.

Which is why I said I draw the distinction at intentional acts designed to enhance the condition or appeal of the card.

But again, my problem isn't the alteration. It's doing that without disclosure. People can di whatever they want to their cards. Just don't sell an altered card without disclosing the alterations so the buyer can decide how to appropriately value the card.

Hey, guys.... gentlemen...


Not long ago someone told me that a relationship isn't about what all a couple has in common, or what the both of them like and agree upon. A relationship is built upon the two hating the same things. That's what an ex-wife told me not long ago... and it makes some sense.

OP Jeff texted me and sent me before and after pics before he posted them here. To me, the card looks better now. I had previously, and off the board, sent a bunch of info on drying a card after its soaked ("allowing a card to dry" is a more accurate phrase.)

Time out for a definition: Altered. A ball card becomes altered the moment it is taken out of its original packaging and the card then is exposed to sunlight or fingers or anything else-- it then has become altered, or so it seems according to some of us.

Ya know, there could have been something in that dirt that was, in the long run, more harmful to that card than water. Thank goodness that's now gone.

I'm about to get to what I want to say. But one more meandering thought. I wonder how one side of that Cracker Jack card got so dirty over the past 110 years, yet those corners seem so firm and free from dings or wear... HAD to be by spending a majority of its life with flour paste on its back while it was pasted in an old scrapbook.

The point>> I quickly noticed missing letters on the back. From the few comparisons I made between the presoak and post soak images it seemed that whatever was missing after the soak had not been there before the soak. But I did this comparison in a rush during lunch, squinting at the images with tired eyes. Can someone with better eyesight and an unbiased approach look to see how many letters got washed away in the process. The issue isn't how many letters are missing post soak, but rather how many existing presoak letters are now gone. I've seen where a soaked card seems to have been rubbed with undue vigor. I have an open mind about how hard Jeff rubbed, and if that did happen was it done immediately after immersion, or did the card set in the water a fair amount of time for the dirt to loosen and fall away.

So will some eagle eye sighted and fair-minded person count how many additional letters are missing, and report back to us, please?

Dr. Geisel's story about those Star Bellied Sneeches comes to mind.
Haters gonna hate.

What truly matters is whether Jeff is satisfied with his result. He likes the postsoak card better, I think. He learned A LOT. I think he'll cautiously do it again one day, just in the right (his definition) situations.

Just for clarification, are you saying you can just breathe on a card and improve its condition? Can you do that with any card or only certain ones?

I paid $40 for Kurt's Card Care Kit. Your breathing technique sounds way more impressive. Hopefully, you can figure out how to bottle it.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

It only works on CJs. Not 14s though, breathe too hard they will fall apart.

If one consumes sufficient quantities of alcohol before the breathing exercise, I’m pretty sure it alters the chemical structure of the card.

Whether the hooch costs more or less than $40 probably depends on your tastes in booze.

Good take, Frank… and for me, trading a few extra letters (since several were scuffed away already) is worth the trade to have lost the big ol’ dirt stain.

I doubt I’ll do too many washes but in this case, I prefer the “after” results.

All jokes aside, yes, you can absolutely improve a card's condition by using your breath. In fact, that's precisely what the little black straw is for in that kit you bought from Kurt's Card Care.

well
 

having soaked hundreds of N, T, and trade cards - rubbing even to the slightest degree can remove some of the surface AND if there already was an abrasion - the loss would likely be worse. Different issues used different paper stock and so the quality and densities reflect those differences as do the fronts and backs of many cards.
Full disclosure - I have never soaked a Cracker Jack (or a watermelon for that matter).
I believe there are a couple of archived threads about soaking and another thousand about what is an alteration. Similar information on the non-sport side.
I would only add to the DRYING admonitions. I always used a few sheets top and bottom of simple computer paper - pressed under of 5/6 weighty books (not the cerebral kind). I changed the paper after about 15/20 minutes and every hour or so until it seemed that the cards were mostly dry to the touch. I then changed the paper again and left them overnight. I changed the paper again the following day and left them about a week - looking in after a few days. That was to insure they were all the way DRY and wouldn't subsequently warp. I always kept the books on them.
Don't soak too long, warm water, don't rub, handle wet paper VERY carefully, dry completely.....and if possible test prior or listen to someone who's done it.

Jeff, here are before and after pictures of your card, side by side.

How did Collins get a mole next to his eye? I also see what looks like wrinkling or scuffing on the right side of the after pic, under the lettering and to the side of his face. Is that from the card saver?

Ditto all of this...tons of archive on the topic.

I attempted to soak a 19th c non sports card that had back residue from removal...the colors were incredibly vivid and brilliant. After soaking the whole shine was removed...card is now faded and ugly...oops!!!

Also as far as drying goes...I initially would place a few layers of paper towel on both sides of the card...then a few pieces of printer paper and i'd stack books. After maybe 1 day i'd change the paper towel and repeat until dry.

Frank was kind enough to send me some plastic slabs he used for pressing and this was much easier.

But ultimately I found a bookbinding press...and this is the ultimate!!!!

Well, when you put it this way... the front before image here DOES look better but am guessing the mole and wrinkle are penny sleeve related. I sent him in to SGC for his tux fitting so I can't pull it out to see what gives here.

'twas an interesting experience for me, still glad to have tried it. Like they say, you either win, or you learn.

I'll post Eddie again when he's done with his Tux fitting in Boca Raton -

Jeff

I'm assuming the "before" image was saved from the listing and was created using a quality scanner. The "after" appears to be a phone pic, which will never do anything similar justice.

Are you sure you sent it to SGC?