When Did the Last Surviving T206 Subject Pass Away?
 

I randomly came across the baseball reference page for t206 player Charles Seitz and realized he passed away in August 1980 when I was 2 years old, making him the only player from the set (that I am aware of) who’s life overlapped with mine.
Thought this was cool and frightening all at the same time! Were there any others who lived into the 1980s? Couldn’t seem to find that info.

Rube Marquard was the last living T206 subject that played in the major leagues he died on June 1 1980.

Thanks for that Pat. So Seitz died in August 1980, a couple months later. Although he did not play in majors, would he be last player from the set to pass away?

Not the same question but the oldest living Old Judge subject, Dummy Hoy, died in 1961 at the ripe old age of 99.

Jay…to take that a step further,
If you were 10 years old when you (hypothetically) met Hoy, you would only be about 74 today. So there are probably still plenty of living people who personally knew an Old Judge player. That blows my mind!

We are probably close to the point where very few people are left who remember seeing Cobb, In addition of course to retaining long-term memory, I think you would have had to be maybe 7 or 8 at the time to truly remember (his last year was 1928), so born 1920 or 1921. Ruth played through 1935, so probably quite a few folks left in their late 90s who recall seeing him play. That's pretty amazing to me.

Red Hoff died in 1998 at the age of 107. He was in T207, and I believe was the last living 1909-1912 ATC card subject, sport or non-sport. Track athlete Abel Kiviat died in 1991 at 99 and was in T218.

Wow, 107! I wonder if that’s the oldest MLB player ever.

He was until the Negro Leagues became recognized as MLB. Silas Simmons, who played two games in 1926, lived to be 111 years old. Hoff is second now. There are two living MLB players who are 100 years old. Art Schallock and Bill Greason.

My grandfather on my mother's side had an uncle (his father's brother) who fought in the Union Army in the Civil War. My grandfather knew him, and liked him. My grandfather was born in 1884 and passed away in 1984. Uncle Frank died in 1915. Pretty incredible to me. Not pre-war card related but...

My dad was born in 1900 in NYC. He could have run into Old Judge players on the street.

I have one T206 card, of Tommy Leach, which I received at random when I was around 10, through a TV Guide ad.

Leach died the year I was born (1969) in Haines City, Fla., where I was a newspaper reporter in the 1990s. He was very active in the community, so I undoubtedly came across people who had known or at least talked to him.

Not trying to hijack this thread, but does anyone know who the last living player was from the 1933 Goudey set?

And to slightly sidetrack down the Goudey hijack line, I believe the oldest surviving player in the 1934 Goudey set was Linus Frey, who passed away in 2009 at the age of 99, and the oldest surviving player in the 1938 Goudey set was Bobby Doerr, who passed away in 2017 at the age of 101.

Not sure about the 1933 Goudey set.

As far as the T206 question, I pasted a list created on the forum by Tom H. back in 2009 below containing the oldest surviving T206 players (minus the Seitz). It may be missing other non-major league players:

Rube Marquard 6-1-1980
Paddy Livingston 9-19-1977
Al Shaw 12-30-1974
Fred Snodgrass 4-5-1974
Larry Doyle 3-1-1974
George McBride 7-2-1973
Dutch Jordan 12-23-1972
Fred Parent 11-2-1972
Davy Jones 3-30-1972
Donie Bush 3-28-1972
Zach Wheat 3-11-1972
Chief Meyers 7-25-1971
Harry Pattee 7-17-1971

Brian

Off the top of my head it might be Milt Gaston who diied in 2002. For the 1934 Goudey set Billy Werber died around 2009. I got to have him sign it at age 100.

Edit: Duly noted about Lonny Frey.

That may be half correct. I think the last player did die in 2002, but it was Willis Hudlin. Gaston passed in '96.

Thanks. Those two guys were always the same to me!

Ok, speaking of old people (and way off topic), but I was shocked to find out that our tenth President, John Tyler, still has a living grandson. Look it up!

Appropo of nothing, other than the foregoing discussion of deceased former ballplayers, but I saw a post earlier today that Charlie Maxwell had passed over the weekend. He was 97 and perhaps the oldest - then living - former ML player.

John Tyler was the 10th President and died in 1862. He had his youngest child when he was 63, who then went on to father a child when he was 75. Today, there is still one living grandson of a president who ended his term in 1845.

Ah just saw someone beat me to it.

This is simply mind-blowing!

Not too many people today can say their grandfather was born in 1790. I believe the grandson, who is 96, is also related to Pocahontas on his mother's side. 234 years in three people. It's astonishing.

There are plenty of people today who have a living great-grandparent. I tell people that my maternal great-grandfather was born in 1817. His little village in Poland was probably still cleaning up after the Napoleonic Wars!

Alan

1952 Topps is down to less than a nickel pack's contents:

Bobby Shantz (99)
Tommie Brown (97)
Bob Ross (96)
Vern Law (94)

1948/49 Leaf lost its last subject in 2017, Bobby Doerr.

It looks like only Tommy Brown (1944!) and Bobby Shantz remain of players who played in the 1940's.

Is Tommy Brown's 1949 Bowman the oldest card of a living player now?

I have a vivid memory of meeting Clark Griffith, who was born in 1869, in 1955 when I was nine. He took me by the hand and we rode in a little elevator to his second-floor office at Griffith Stadium.

^^^ So fkn cool!!

He is; it’s pretty crazy to think we’re down to one player left from an entire decade of card sets.

I knew there was another player in the 1934 Goudey issue that was vying for last survivor for the set...thanks for providing the Werber name. Billy Werber died on 1/22/2009, thus allowing Frey to snatch away the crown, living until 9/13/2009.

Brian

Bobby Doerr might hold the title for oldest survivor of card sets. Looks like he is for the 1938 Goudey and 1948/49 Leaf. I wonder if he is also the top dog for the 1939 Play Ball, 1940 Play Ball, 1941 Play Ball and 1941 Double Play?

Brian

Also quite possibly the last living grandson of a Confederate Congressman.

I believe Doerr was the last living subject of the 1941 Play Ball and Double Play sets. I believe Dario Lodigiani was the last living player from the 1941 Goudey set.

He was, at one point, I was trying to find a 1938 Goudey to send to him, and I had an easier time finding a signed one than an unsigned one. I know we make the joke here about Bob Feller and unsigned 8x10s, but here it was actually true.

THAT is awesome

Gus Suhr was the last surviving 1933 Goudey player.

Thanks...looks like Gus passed away on January 15th, 2004.

Brian

Similarly, my dad was born in 1897 in Chicago, where he may have crossed paths with Old Judge players. I recall Dad telling me that he and his buddies played stickball on the streets of Chicago.

T206 Immortals
 

I’ve identified 2 Minor Leaguers and 5 Southern Leaguers who may have never died. In a couple of cases, I’m starting to think they may never have existed — a cross-up in first and last name, someone else’s photo, etc.

Minor Leaguers (DOD)
Phelan, Jimmy (N/A)
Poland, Phil (N/A)

Southern Leaguers (DOD)
Miller, Molly (N/A)
Reagan, Ed (N/A)
Ryan, Ray (N/A)
Smith, Carlos (N/A)
White, Foley (N/A)

Amazing research.

John Phelan is Jimmy Phelan: http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=phelan001joh

Philip Poland: https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=poland002phi

Charles Miller is Molly Miller: https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=miller002cha

Ed Reagan is Eddie Reagan: https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...=reagan002edw#

Ray Ryan: https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=ryan--001ray

Carlos Smith: https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=smith-006car

Foley White: http://www.baseball-reference.com/mi...d=white-001fol

Got these done in March 2017 and October 2014. I also had him sign a 1948 Leaf in September 2014 that I don't have a picture of with me, and I'm away from home right now. At the time, it didn't occur to me to send a Double Play, the 1940 Play Ball set didn't appeal to me, and I mentioned my struggles with Goudey in a different post. I wish I could have a mulligan now...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...298d0e5e_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...b9d673c2_z.jpg

I've told people about that John Tyler fact for years because it's crazy to think someone alive now has a grandfather born in 1790. There's also a grandson (edited to add a granddaughter is also alive) of Grover Cleveland alive. Cleveland was born in 1837, so that's a big difference from John Tyler, but the grandson is 24 years younger than Tyler's grandson, so that cuts away some of that difference.

Back to Tyler. I'm big into family history and my own first/last name has a long history, though it was Johannes originally, not the Americanized John. In comparison to someone who has a grandfather born in 1790, my great-great-great-great grandfather Johannes was also born in 1790. So Tyler's grandson only has me beat by four generations.

Thanks for the heads up! Last time I had checked Baseball Reference didn’t have DOB for any of those 7. Seems like now only Phelan, Poland, and Miller are missing birthdays.

These are the players I don't have info on
#22 Bastian, Jack ??
#335 Miller, Molly ??
#390 Phelan, Jimmy ??
#395 Poland, Phil ??
#283 Lentz, Harry Sentz ??
#501 Westlake, James ??

Back to the Tyler sub-thread. So fathering a child at 75? Bravo and well done. Definitely worth going down the rabbit hole to research this one.

John Kenney ("Jack") Bastian
Birth: May 10, 1883
Newburgh, NY
Death: June 14, 1959
Newburgh, NY

Harry Sentz
Birth: January 31, 1883
Baltimore, MD
Death: January 8, 1932
Baltimore, MD

James Arthur Westlake
Birth: November 1, 1874
New Jersey
Death: August 31, 1935
Essex, NJ

Also, in case anyone is interested, T206 players started dying while the cards were being produced between 1909-11 (Powers, McGann, Nichols, and Joss), and thereafter died at a fairly low annual cadence of no more than 15 players (1947 and 1956) on an annual basis over the next 60-70 years, with 40% (159) dying between 1947 and 1961.

Back to Tyler for those interested, the family consists of just 8 generations in America (based on the living grandson) going back to Henry Tyler who was born about 1607 possibly in London, England and who immigrated to America and subsequently acquired the “Middle Plantation” in Virginia, that eventually became Williamsburg. So the family has been in America around 400 years and have had just 8 generations! Crazy! All of the men were having children with one leg already in the coffin!

I guess if you were a player in the T206 set, 1947 to 1961 was a nice stretch to get through still alive.


Brian

Just updated my list

Thanks!

Any info on Juan Viola? I have his birth year as 1883 in Havana but no date

There are some boat travel manifests I was able to find regarding Viola, but nothing that provides any documentation beyond year of birth.

While this is interesting ,it’s probably not as unusual as you think. I have traced my genealogy back about 10 generations to the first immigrant who came over about 10-15 years after the Mayflower (1620). This original immigrant with the Brigham surname settled around Marlboro Massachusetts and I can trace all 10 generations IN THE SAME TOWN back to the mid 1600s!

And a friend of mine with the surname Alden is a direct descendant of the John Alden who was on the Mayflower. He has a couple relics like primitive silverware and cookware that have been passed down through family as relics from the Mayflower.

Also played during the war
 

Further deviation fun fact: there is still a living member of The Glenn Miller Orchestra 80 years after they broke up named Ray Anthony who is about to turn 103. He later went on to record the Hokey Pokey that we all danced to as kids.

Years ago, when I was living in Boston and doing research on the New England League, I had no luck determining Phil Poland's birth or death dates. He was from Maine, but I never found the family in any census there. His mother, Susie, died Oct. 4, 1934, in Lynn, Mass. She was the widow of Levi, who might have been Phil's father. Phil visited Susie in Lynn in May 1928. Perhaps, some of this might help one of you track him down.

I found Susie and Levi. But no indication of a son together. Does seem like perhaps Susie had a son not named Phil from an earlier marriage, and then married Levi Poland, so perhaps there is something there — but nothing saying the boy changed his name to Phil Poland after his mom remarried.

Thanks. Neat stuff!!!

I have done genealogy for the past 25 years or so. Lots of work, but the skills I learned come in handy from time to time!

Thanks, Paul,
So, it's likely Phil Poland was born with a different last name and probably a different first name, too, then used the name Phil Poland during his baseball career. Perhaps a record of Susie's marriage to Levi would give her prior name.

Here are three screenshots - if your theory is correct then Phil Poland is really John A Hackett. However, Poland played for Providence in 1905, and that seems somewhat unlikely for a 16-year old, if he was born on April 23, 1889 (as indicated on his WW1 Draft Reg card), though Dick Rudolph was 16 when he started playing for Providence in 1904, so it is possible I suppose. I guess my question is why do we think Phil Poland met with his mother Susie Poland in May 1928? What’s the evidence?

I find all these obscure facts about obscure players very I interesting. I think someone (not me) needs to write a book about “The 25 Most Obscure Players From T206 and What Happened to Them After Baseball”. Who’s gonna write it?

More to the point, who's going to read it?

Paul,
When I was researching the New England League, I read the Lynn papers every day. On May 28, 1928, one of them (likely the Item) reported that Phil Poland, the old ballplayer, was in town visiting his mother, Susie.

I've spent most of my life compiling a manuscript of what happened to every MLB player from 1876-2000, in addition to keeping track of causes of death. I have info for over 97% of all players from those 125 seasons. I have to agree with the poster right after you who replied, "Who's going to read it?". Obviously, it would have an audience, but is it worth my time to publish? Thus far, I've found it's been more beneficial to me to keep the info and use it for my own gain. Definitely more selfish than altruistic. There are other reasons to keep a lot of this info to myself, though. There's the chance that anyone still living may take (legal) issue with the publication of information that's not found in publicly accessible areas, let alone any little typo or incorrect fact that may have slipped through the cracks. Imagine having to cite sources for every bit of information gleaned for thousands of players? Thankfully, I've kept all of those citations, but what an absolute nightmare it would be to deal with. And for what, next to no money?

Just to clarify what I meant in saying someone should write a book..
I’m reminded of a book I read shortly after it came out out in 2020-“The Wax Pack: On the Open Road in Search of Baseball’s Afterlife”. The concept was interesting to me. The author cracked open a pack of cards, I can’t remember off-hand,might’ve been like 89 Topps or something. Then he wrote a chapter about researching the life of each random player in the pack. Some were borderline stars,some were journeymen. It was a great read, and got to #7 on the LA Times best seller list, also named one of the best books of 2020 by NPR. Not saying a t206 book would do as well by any means. But there is so much publicity around this set, even casual collectors know some about it. And we all know about the Cobbs and Mathewsons. But not everyone knows about Bugs Raymond, or Dan McGann. Not saying everyone’s story is fascinating, but I know some are. And a good author could bring that to life. NO DOUBT it would be a labor of love. But I guarantee many of the thousands of T206 collectors on this board would read it. I simply disagree no one would read it. It would be unlike any Deadball era book written. I’m talking myself into writing it when I retire!

If people are interested in writing bios of T206 players, which I fully support of course, there are plenty of un-researched players on SABR. I am pretty sure SABR would love the help!

A good example is T206 player bull Durham, who has been thoroughly researched here:

https://sabr.org/journal/article/in-...f-bull-durham/

I would note that Dan McGann and Bugs Raymond have well-researched chapters in Deadball Stars of the National League, which is available on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Deadball-Star.../dp/1574888609

(You can also read similar versions of McGann and Raymond’s bios on SABR).

Its not quite connected, but i still have to add the amazing tale of John seymour who in 1956 was on a tv game show discussing how he witnessed lincoln's assassination at Ford's theatre.

https://x.com/HistoryInPics/status/1853147423700566452

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4CCFObSEAU

Same to me i need someone who can write about T205.

Not same to me as someone can only ban who need T205 write about.

Brian

When Did the Last Surviving T206 Subject Pass Away?
 

So this 1983 article while preparing to record my latest YouTube video.
No better place than the post here.

I am copying and pasting from a photograph of the magazine using an iPhone . Excuse any formatting issues.
========

T- 206 "REST in PEACE"
BY BILL HABER
Fall 1983 issue of “baseball card - hobby report”.

EDITOR'S NOTE: Bill Haber can be reached at 1518
East 29th Street, Brooklyn, New York 11234, and would like to hear from anyone with information regarding the whereabouts or deaths of any obscure former Major League player.

IN JUNE 1, 1980, when Rube Marquard died, he represented the last survivor of the 358 major leaguers featured in T-206. That is, with an asterisk. There remained one obstacle to be overcome until all those players could be accounted for. That one obstacle was Louis "Bull" Durham, major league pitcher from 1904 through 1909 who was featured in T-206 as a member of the New York (National) Giants.

As of 1969, there were ten players featured in T-206 who were listed among the "missing". With the help of the Society for American Baseball Research (SABR) based in Cooperstown, New York, nine of those ten players were found, or, to be specific, their unreported deaths were located. Through painstaking efforts on the part of SABR members, Rube Geyer, Heinie Batch, Jerry Freeman, Bill Graham, Jack McAleese, Pat Paige, Lee Quillen, Ike Rockenfield and John White were ultimately found. Bull Durham remained the last mystery to be solved among this elite group honored by depiction in this tobacco series.

The Encyclopedia of Baseball states that Louis G. "Bull" Durham was born in Bolivar, New York in 1881 and was a brother of James Garfield "Jim-my" Durham, a pitcher-outfielder with the Chicago White Sox in 1902. Both facts ultimately proved incorrect. In reading newspaper accounts of the travels of Bull Durham during his baseball career, one would learn that he was married about 1907 and that he spent the winter of 1906-07 studying law in Geneva, Ohio. A marriage record could not be found, nor could any such learning institution located in or near Geneva, Ohio be located. Bull Durham enjoyed a long and extensive minor league career, and much was written about him between 1904 and 1913, but nothing of any substance could be learned about him until October of 1982.

At that time, Ray Nemec of Naperville, II-linois located a note in a 1906 Pennsylvania newspaper indicating that Bull Durham's correct name at birth was Charles Staub. This reference was reported to Al Kermisch of Alexandria, Virginia with whom the name Staub rung a bell. Al checked his extensive files of minor leaguers and found that our man's correct name was actually Louis Staub, a righthanded pitcher he had traced through the 1900-02 seasons. Staub was last shown in the records of Al Kermisch to have been pitching at McSherrystown, Pennsylvania in
August of 1902, so Al made an additional effort to turn up a note or two about him.

It was in early January of 1983 when Al turned up the note which proved most significant. A newspaper item had indicated that Staub was born in New Oxford, Pennsylvania in 1879. Upon learning this, a check was made of the current New Oxford telephone directory, only to find nearly one column of Staubs. A call was placed to three such numbers, strictly at random. The third of the three was able to refer the caller to a woman in York, Pennsylvania who has compiled a genealogical study of all the Staubs of southeastern Pennsylvania dating back to the 1700's.

A call to this woman resulted in the learning of Staub's correct birth data. He was born Louis Raphael Staub in New Oxford, Pennsylvania, June 27, 1877, the eighth of nine children. Subsequent efforts resulted in the locating of two daughters of the ballplayer. They reported that their father died in Bentley, Kansas, June 28, 1960, one day after his 83rd birthday. He had changed his name to Louis Staub Durham in late 1902, and continued to use the pseudonym for the rest of his life.

When asked the reason why Mr. Staub chose the name "Bull Durham" upon deciding to change his name, the two daughters were of the opinion that their father had taken a liking to the smoking tobacco of the day. What they didn't know was that he was a teammate of Jimmy Durham at Cedar Rapids in 1902 and the two had developed a close friendship. They were also teammates at Louisville in 1907 and were pictured alongside one another on the Louisville team photo. They also didn't know that thier father, upon settling in Kansas in 1926, chose to live the rest of his life in Jimmy's home state. And, they didn't know that their father's early occupation of being a patent medicine specialist was closely related to Jimmy's occupation of pharmacist. Is it possible that Bull worked for Jimmy in some capacity during the years? And, did he idolize Jimmy enough to honor him by adopting his sirname?

These questions probably will never be answered. However, it's nice to know that the T-206 series can now rest in peace.

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