Richie Allen and Dave Parker.
 

Bravo. I like it.

Existing thread. Can we combine?

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=349079

Rich Allen
 

Richie Allen had to go thru some stuff, but they certainly didn't put him in the Hall because he was a great team man.

Many of his former managers and teammates have disputed that assessment of him.

+1
Chuck Tanner and Jim Kaat had nothing but great things to say about Dick Allen.

richie allen pt II
 

I base what I am saying on Bill James' evaluation of Allen. Of course, Bill James thought George Sisler and Bill Terry were overrated and refused to believe Pete Rose bet on games for far too long.

Bill James is always a good read.

Although he later recanted, in his 2003 tome, James says Biggio is better than Griffey.

I can't find the recent article I was reading about this, but here's a link to an older one. Also, one of the reasons he didn't get along with the media (at least in Philly) is because they refused to use his preferred name when writing about him which was Dick not Richie.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/...21g1mm49z9wvnr

Dick Allen is certainly a controversial figure.

Here is another article, which was written in SABR magazine in 1995 and reposted here about the subject: https://web.archive.org/web/20190411...ory=11&id=2065

Gene Mauch managed Allen longer than any other manager, and had this to say about Allen:

"I've never been in contact with a greater talent. He was held in absolute awe by every player in the league. He had tremendous power. He had a great feel for the game, and he was one of the finest base runners -- which is different from base stealing -- that I ever saw. If I was managing California today and Allen was in his prime, I'd take him in a minute."

James' basic complaint against Allen is that he was a divisive presence on his teams, that: "Every team that he played for degenerated into warring camps of pro-Dick Allen and anti-Dick Allen factions." When Mauch was asked if that was true with any of his teams, he was emphatic in his denial, "Never. His teammates always liked him. You could go forever and not meet a more charming fellow." Later in the interview he came back to this topic to make the following point:

"He wasn't doing anything to hurt [his teammates] play of the game, and he didn't involve his teammates in his problems. When he was personally rebellious, he didn't try to bring other players into it."

Chuck Tanner, his coach while with with the White Sox had this to say: "Dick was the leader of our team, the captain, the manager on the field. He took care of the young kids, took them under his wing. And he played every game as if it was his last day on earth."

Manager Red Schoendienst who coached him in St. Louis remembered Dick this way:

"He did a real fine job for me. He had a great year, led our team in RBIs, and he never gave me any trouble. ... I planned on using him at first base, but with [Mike] Shannon's illness, I had to use him some at third base, and I played him a few games in the outfield, too. He was good about that."

When asked if Allen was a divisive presence among his teammates, Red said, "Absolutely not. He was great in our clubhouse. He got along with everybody. He wasn't a rah-rah guy, but he came to play. They respected him, and they liked him."

When White Sox GM Roland Holland was asked whether the team ever divided into pro-Allen and anti-Allen groups, he said, "No, there was none of that" and when Tanner was asked the same question about Bill James' criticism of Allen as a disruptive presence on a team Tanner said, "He's full of #@#@#@#@, and you be sure to tell him that."

In his biography Clearing Bases, Mike Schmidt credited Dick Allen in as his mentor. According to Schmidt "The baseball writers used to claim that Dick would divide the clubhouse along racial lines. That was a lie. The truth is that Dick never divided any clubhouse."

Perhaps some of this is revisionist history, but I am glad Allen finally got in, and think he was deserving.

Here's the article I was looking for, but it may be paywalled.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2025-cla...te-dick-allen/

From the article in case you can't get to it:

"Allen did nothing to deserve the racism and hatred he battled in Little Rock and Philadelphia, or the condescension of the lily-white, paternalistic media that refused to even call him by his correct name. To underplay the extent to which those forces shaped his conduct and his public persona thereafter is to hold him to an impossibly high standard; not everyone can be Jackie Robinson or Ernie Banks, nor should they have to be. The distortions that influenced the negative views of him — including Bill James’ crushing dismissal (“[Allen] did more to keep his teams from winning than anybody else who ever played major league baseball. And if that’s a Hall of Famer, I’m a lug nut.”) in The Politics of Glory — were damaging. To give them the upper hand is to reject honest inquiry into his career.

Sabermetrician Don Malcolm called that passage “the absolute nadir of Bill James’ career, a summary statement so blatantly biased that his long-time friend and associate Craig Wright felt compelled to write an essay refuting Bill’s perspective… Everyone knows that Dick Allen was a great hitter; there’s just all that other baggage that they’re afraid to open.” Having opened it, well, it’s not pretty, but by now it’s abundantly clear that it wasn’t all Allen’s baggage to begin with. Wright’s work, which featured interviews with all but one of Allen’s big league managers (the late Dodgers skipper Walter Alston) as well as several teammates, strongly refutes the notion that Allen was a divisive clubhouse presence or a particular problem for his managers aside from his early-career tardiness (and his extreme behavior in 1969). “His teammates always liked him,” said Mauch. “He wasn’t doing anything to hurt [his teammates] play of the game, and he didn’t involve his teammates in his problems. When he was personally rebellious, he didn’t try to bring other players into it.”

Even Skinner and Ozark, the two managers portrayed as the most openly critical of him, told Wright that Allen wasn’t the problem with their teams and that they’d have him back again if given the chance."

Dave Parker makes Harold Baines look like a first ballot HOF selection.

I don’t think it would have taken much to convince the Dick Young’s of the world that Allen was some sort of violent black panther activist.

There were times when Parker was considered one of the top players in the game. I'm not sure the same was ever true about Baines.

+1

Parker finished in the top 20 in MVP voting 9 times, Baines 4 times. Parker was in the top 10 6 times, winning once. Baines only made one appearance in the top 10 and that was a 9th place finish.

Happy for Allen. Parker, not so sure. Once again, too many better ballplayers languishing in the Hall of Never Getting In, for whatever reasons.

But as others have said here, other than the HoF country club, and people on these forums, no one cares.

Garvey snubbed again. Unreal.

Pretty surprised Vic Harris got almost no support.

There needs to be another pre-integration vote for only pre-integration players to give proper focus and respect to this era of baseball. this committee does not take it seriously enough in its current iteration.

Thanks for sharing the Craig Wright article - really informative read.

Parker was top 5 five times and is 38th all time in MVP shares. Harold Baines is 673rd.

Why? In 2006; they formed a special committee. There were 94 players who were evaluated. That was paired down to 39 for a vote. Each one was given a yes or no vote. All 39 could have been elected, but only 17 were. Harris was in the 94 and didn't make the cut. Donaldson was in the 39 and was voted no on.

This is a lot different than what someone like Parker went through. Everytime he has been voted on, the voters were limited how many players they can choose. From his first ballot, he is the 11th Hall of Famer elected from that ballot and there are about 6 more who are deserving. It would be impossible to have elected all of these due to the number voters could vote for.

His last time on the ballot, he was on a ballot with 13 Hofers, plus steroid users and a few more that will be elected in the future.

His first time on the Veterans Committee, he was one of 12. 3 were elected with 100%, that is why no one else received 6 votes. Parker is the 6th Hofer off that ballot.

His second time on the ballot, Morris received 14/16, Trammell 13/16, future Hofer Simmons 11/16 and future Hofer Miller 7/16. That left 3 votes for the other 6 guys on the ballot. Parker is the 5th Hofer from that ballot.

Unless the voting system is changed to give voters the option of voting for everyone, like on the Negro League ballot, you are going to see the same players get voted on with a few new names replacing those who were voted in.

My point wasn't that Vic Harris deserves more attention but that players of his era, who were not able to play in MLB baseball, haven't had enough opportunities to be considered for enshrinement or for their careers to be talked about in relation to the HOF. Talking about it once doesn't really satisfy that.

Parker was voted on 19 times.

The Baseball Hall of Fame had better put Dick Allen, and NOT Richie or Rich, on his plaque. That's the way Dick would want it. I know he's not around to say, but addressing him as Dick is what the man always wanted, in essentially the same way as Clemente always preferred Roberto.

I just wish Dick had lived long enough to see this day, and be at Cooperstown for his official enshrinement. Sadly, Dick's not the first, and won't be the last. --- Brian Powell

My point, which could have been more elegant I guess, was to point out neither had a HOF career.

Maybe not, but Parker sure looked like a HOFer in the 70s. At the end of his first five seasons as a full-time starter, he was a superstar, right up there with Brett and the other players who broke in at around the same time.

I don't remember anyone every saying that Baines was a superstar ... because he just wasn't. If you take the best five individual years from the two players combined, arguably all five would be by Parker. Only one by Baines (1984) even merits consideration.

For all of the people who support Mattingly for election to the Hall (seems to me that at least as many as supported Parker) based on his peak 5 or so year run, Parker was only slightly less dominant during his mid-late 70's peak but following his ugly last few seasons in Pittsburgh, he went on to have nearly a decade of very productive numbers elsewhere while Mattingly pretty much fell off the face of the earth after his peak years. Yeah, he was injured, but that's part of his career as well.

The Cobra was my childhood favorite ballplayer and thrilled to finally see him get in after nearly 30 years of waiting.

Hof
 

I think both were very good players. But neither HOF worthy

There's no way they keep Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds or even Dale Murphy out of the HOF if Dave Parker is in.

This.

Murphy is a good candidate who played during mostly the same era and had similar peak numbers to Parker but the Cobra far outperforms him for aggregate “rest of career” seasons. Also, Murthy’s teams never won anything, a big detractor against his case. Edmonds & Jones were both steroid-era guys when the game’s offensive numbers were much different than they were in the 70’s and early-mid 80’s. Don’t think either comes close to measuring up to Parker.

I think Jones goes in before he is off the ballot, the 10 gold gloves will get him in.

Disagree. It doesn't work that way. Baines has been in for years, all three of those guys were better than Baines, but hasn't gotten them in. Each player is his own thing.

He was so so bad with the Dodgers, and walking to the plate to "Don't Worry Be Happy" was so so annoying...

.158 in 75 games. He's just NOT getting into the Hall with a .254 lifetime BA IMO, I don't care how many great catches he made or that he had some great power years.

The only position player with a lower lifetime batting average than Andruw Jones in the HOF is catcher Ray Schalk at .253. Then comes Killebrew at .256.

There are certainly other players with double digit Gold Gloves that have yet to get in—Vizquel and Keith Hernandez each had 11. But who knows, just need some friends as voters.

I agree. Dale Murphy was the best player in baseball at his prime. The back to back MVPs does it for me. And Andruw Jones? The guy hit over 400 home runs and is the best defensive center fielder in history. 10 straight gold gloves? DWar was double that of Willie Mays and Roberto Clemente.

If Bill Mazeroski can get in for his defense while being below to WAY below average at the plate literally every single season, then Andruw Jones should waltz right in.

Andruw Jones received 61% of the vote in the last HOF election. No player who has received 50% of the BBWAA vote has not been elected except for steroid guys. Did Jones use steroids? With only Billy Wagner ahead of him and in his 10th year on the ballot, Jones has 3 more tries. Most likely he is elected in the next 3 years.

Any predictions of who may appear on the 2027 ballot?

HOFer near misses and hits
 

For a while, Don Mattingly WAS Lou Gehrig, but his body broke down. Even a hurt Don Mattingly could still play, but....The Hall is about longevity (otherwise Bird Fidrych, Pete Reiser and Joe Wood may have made it in.

Cracker Schalk, as a catcher, recorded a putout at every based and averaged
100 assists a year (or one per game played, if you like), during his career. This is inconceivable in modern baseball. My point here bein', you can't compare areas.

Maz could turn a DP in his sleep (and, yes, he probably disrupted Ralph Terry's sleep as well). The DP part is what he got paid for and what got him to Cooperstown.

Killebrew, I never really got, but he hit homers and he did it well, which is exactly what they asked of him.

I stand corrected on Dick Allen being a questionable team player, but in his prime years he never lasted long in any one city. Every time he was traded, it was for players of lesser value (Tommy John is no exception as he hadn't pitched winning baseball for years, McCarver was past his prime and Willie Montanez had a total of two official MLB at bats).

Was Dick Allen really hated that much by front offices?

There are examples of guys who could play, but couldn't stick anywhere. Not many examples, but there are a few. Hornsby, top of the list, Alex Johnson, Billy Martin, even Lou Novikoff (MLB actually used a guy with one arm rather than give a contract to Lou Novikoff.

Even though he didn't want it if he wasn't around, Luis Tiant, Jr. should have gotten in.


Sorry they let you down Luis.


.

To my knowledge Jones was not associated with steroids.

Nellie Fox did eventually get in through the Veteran's Committee but per BR he received 61% in his penultimate year on the ballot and then an incredible 74.7% on his final ballot.

He was then elected by the veterans 12 years later.

Do we know why Jones just imploded at age 30? Other than his BA being a little on the low side, he had strong offensive numbers to that point to go along with the defense.

Buster Posey and Jon Lester are the strongest candidates. In 2026 it is Ryan Braun and Cole Hamels. Jones strongest competition from returning candidates are Carlos Beltan and CC Sabathia if they don't get in this year. I can see two 2 player classes of Jones, Sabathia, Beltran and Posey for 2026 and 2027.

Wow, sounds like a real bad break for [checks notes] Don Mattingly?

I don't see Lester, Braun or Hamels as HOFers off the top of my head. The other three should make it, and I suppose Jones might get over the top as well especially with not strong competition.

I was thinking more like Luis Tiant and Rick Reuschel, but yeah, I guess Cole Hamels et al. will also be on a 2027 ballot.

Tiant may end up being Thurman Munson and Steve Garvey, just destined not to make it? I think Reuschel has a Bobby Grich problem -- yeah, we see your WAR and it easily qualifies you, but we just don't think you were all that great.

I think Lester has a stronger Veteran's Committee case (or whatever they're calling it nowadays). We're not going to see another 200-game winner for a while, and has a strong narrative; cancer wipes out half his rookie year, he comes back to win the World Series the following year, then throws a no-hitter the year after, and later was a part of the 2013 team that won after the Boston Marathon bombing, then goes to Chicago and helps them win.

Wainwright also won exactly 200. Not sure he feels like a HOFer to me either, but maybe.

I don’t think Lester makes it. He’s in the Tim Hudson class for me. Not appreciated enough but also I don’t think HOF worthy.

A lot of pitchers feel like that to me. David Wells, Frank Tanana, Dennis Martinez, Kevin Brown, Billy Pierce. All with more wins I believe.

Looks like the Braves saw the writing on the wall. The B.A. was getting worse and the strikeout to walk ratio wasn't getting any better.

Signed with the Dodgers, he showed up 20 lb's overweight to camp, promptly messed up his knee and was never the same again. He wasn't even a valuable defender after that 2007 Age 30 season anymore. He was an OK platoon guy for a couple teams, but that's about it.

He did do ok for a couple seasons in Japan after he left the Yanks, but even they didn't want him playing the outfield. He was basically a 1B/DH guy over there.

I was expecting Dick Allen to make it, but I admit Parker surprised me a bit. Parker is an interesting mix of peak with some longevity (2,700+ hits).

Sad to see Tiant now make it. One thing I realized this time around is that every committee is a completely new group of voters, so there's no "momentum" from vote to vote (like you may see with the BBWAA).

It'll be interesting to see who gets nominated for the Post-1980 ballot next year. Evans and Whitaker? Steroids guys? Kenny Lofton? Kevin Brown? or the same short-career, high peak guys as last time?


The Dave Parker Rookie Card: The 1974 Topps Card Of Baseball’s Latest Hall Of Famer

Dick Allen Elected To The Baseball Hall Of Fame

The problem is there is nothing besides WAR that says he has a case for HOF. 214 wins, 3.37 ERA = 114 ERA+, 26 shutouts, 2015 Ks, 1.275 WHIP, 5.1 K/9, 3x AS, 0.63 Cy Young shares. That is why he received 2 votes on a ballot with Sutton, Niekro, Kaat and John finishing in the top 10 and Tiant 15th.

I think if he gets in then it will be his postseason record that pushed him over the edge. But he is more of an Veterans Committee if he gets in but he should at least stick around on the ballot like Buehrle has.

He got way out of shape.

I don't understand why Bob Johnson gets no love for the HOF.

Only player in baseball history (with a career long enough to be eligible for the HOF) to have an OPS+ of 125 or higher in every single year of his career from rookie to final year.

Career OPS+ of 139

27 year old rookie who managed to have over 1200 runs and RBI and 2000 hits.

90 or more RBI in 10 of his 13 major league seasons including 8 of 100 or more (7 in a row).

7x all star probably should have been 9 or 10x based on season totals of years he didn't make it.

Walked more than he struck out in his career, including 10 years of 75+ walks

Led league in left fielder putouts 6 times and assists 8 times.

Is in top 100 hitters all time in many offensive metrics including (for thise who feel this is not a compliment for getting in the HOF, there are now 193 "hitters" in the Hall, so top 100 is pretty much top half of current hall of famers):

OBP 97th
OPS 73rd
Walks 92nd
Adjusted OPS+ 96th
Adjusted batting runs 82nd
Adjusted batting wins 85th
Base out runs added 90th
Situational wins added 79th
Base out wins added 90th
rOBA 65th
RBAT+ 98th
Left fielder putouts 12th
Left fielder assists 6th

JAWS has him as the 20th best Left fielder of all time. Ahead of:


Ralph Kiner
Joe Kelley
Jim Rice
Heinie Manush
Lou Brock

Absolutely agree with you on that one.

Allen is a solid pick at 3B; his numbers put him right in the middle of the pack. Parker I am lukewarm on. Seems like a case of wasted potential; he was a god for the latter half of the 1970s but free-fell after that. Coke will do that.

Thread needs something...

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...in%20Allen.JPG
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...on%20Allen.jpg


That feels better.

Richie Allen and Dave Parker.
 

In my mind, Garvey’s mistake was all that BS with his personal life that caused his support on the writer’s ballot essentially to implode back in the 90’s and 00’s for a while when he was fresher in everyone’s collective memories. Once he moved on to the various iterations of the VC and “era” committees, sabermetrics had become a thing, and his shortcomings in certain career stats to me at least anyway seemed a lot more obvious.

For starters before you even get to that, he’s a 1B with less than 300 career HR. Most typical HOF 1B have power figures way beyond that. Only 38 career WAR and a .329 OBP don’t help him much either.

If it were up to me, I’d put him in; I’m for a (slightly anyway) “larger” Hall. Garvey certainly has the hardware accolades (An MVP, 10x AS, 4 GG, an AS MVP, an LCS MVP…) and there is at least a decent argument that he was the best 1B in the majors in the 1970’s. The problem though is now it’s been so long that he is getting that reputation as “best player not in the HOF” - which ironically before him seemed to be a distinction held forever by Gil Hodges. I don’t know if he overcomes that or not. It would seem to make sense that he would eventually, but who knows.


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I don't understand why Al Oliver doesn't get more love from the Hall of Fame voters. He is top 100 in real categories. 2743 hits 58th all time, 4083 total bases 83rd all time, 529 doubles 43rd all time 1326 RBIs 100th all time.

His last series, he hit .375 in the 1985 ALCS. He won game 2 with a walk off single in the bottom of the 10th and game 4 with a 2-run double in the top of the 9th in a 3-1 win. Both hits were off Royals closer Dan Quisenberry. Then the Blue Jays and everyone else colluded to not sign Oliver in 1986.

Oliver received a 680k settlement that illegally ended his career prematurely. However, that doesn't make up for being denied the honor of joining the 3000 hit club and the Hall of Fame enshrinement soon after. Voters have no problem electing people who were part of the collusion, but what about the players who they damaged? Hopefully the voters allow Al Oliver to enjoy election while he is alive after what they did to Ron Santo and Dick Allen.

For people who support Andruw Jones for the HOF, was his career all that different from Torii Hunter's?

Jones has the higher home run total, but Hunter is there at 353 with a higher career average, scored more runs, drove in more runs and has more than 2,000 hits with about the same career OPS+ (110 to 111). I also think Hunter was a productive player for almost the entirety of his career whereas Jones left a lasting memory of a guy who burned out.

Jones won 10 gold gloves to Hunter's 9. But I don't see a lot of support for Hunter.

I think maybe Garvey initially suffered because of his personal baggage and now it's pretty easy to make the No case based on advanced metrics. But there's no denying that in the day, the consensus was that he was an elite player, and there is certainly support for that perception, including 6 straight 200 hit seasons.

It’s not The Baseball Hall Of Fame
It’s the BBWAA hall of fame
If Al Oliver could have stayed with Pitt long enough to be part of media-loving
“We are family” champs he’d probably be in there with Parker .

BBWAA probably view him as a trouble maker (like the determined Allen
or “scary “Jim Rice who had to wait 15 ballots ) - He’ll probably get in via the veterans after he has passed away .
Perhaps 4 time batting champ Bill Madlock can make it .

Not starting until age 27 obviously hurt Bob Johnson a lot.

Exactly. I was born in ‘77, but even as a fairly little kid in mid-80’s, I knew who Steve Garvey was.

In fact, he was a main part of the sub-theme (baseball, and baseball cards) in the movie “Mask” with Cher and Eric Stolz. I vividly remember a ‘74 Topps Garvey in that movie, and of course the ‘55 and ‘56 Brooklyn Dodger cards that Rocky had up on his wall in his room. By the time I saw this movie, I was already buying Topps packs, but I’m sure it did quite a lot to aid in my burgeoning interest in vintage cards.

It’s always interesting when someone is superstar good for a period of time, but in some way falls short on their career. I hope Steve gets in one day.


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Not like he had a short peak though. He made 10 all star teams including 8 in a row, and batted over .280 12 times.

His minor league numbers were not all that good at ages 23 or 24. By age 25 and 26 he was tearing up the PCL though. He also could have stayed around a bit longer. Had 5 homers and .283 batting average in PCL in just 145 at bats at age 42 three years after his last major league at bat. Hit .326 the next year in B level ball, walking more than twice as much as he struck out.

Just think he is worthy of a discussion from those who make those decisions.

His stats also benefited from playing full seasons throughout the war years against notably depleted competition.

Mel Ott
Joe Medwick
Lou Boudreau
Rick Ferrell
Bobby Doerr (in military only 1945)
Ernie Lombardi
Hal Newhouser

Wasn't a problem for them.

Most of Bob Johnson’s highest ranking stats that have been mentioned are primarily a result of high walk totals based on his plate appearances per season and career. Walks aren’t nearly as impressive to me as hits and extra base hits where you have the ability to drive in more runs, not just get on base to score them. Don’t really think he deserves to be in the Hall and very little support for him over the years, that’s probably why.

He drove in 100 runs or more seven years in a row. I think he did just fine with the extra base hits and driving in the runs.

He averaged 60 extra base hits per year over his entire career.

I definitely understand the arguments against him and they are valid for sure. He just seems to be someone who deserves a pretty long conversation.

Had he come to the majors at age 26 instead of 27, he would have been one of only 9 players in major league history with 400 doubles 100 triples and 300 home runs. And he would have reached 1300 runs and 1300 RBI.

I know it's just a hypothetical. But he was that close.

He had 1283 RBIs with only 2051 hits and had an OPS+ of 139. For his career, he hit .306 with an OPS of .931 with runners in scoring position. Seems like he did a pretty good job at driving in runs regardless of how many walks he had.

And on a personal note, he is of Native American heritage. Would love to get us some more representation in the Hall.

Bob Johnson always fascinated me also. Gotta imagine if he'd been found by MLB just a couple years earlier, he'd have been in the Hall of Fame long ago.

Similar trajectory to Albert Belle, just at different ages. WAR likes Bob Johnson a bit better though. Probably due to his defensive metrics, slightly better walk rate and the fact he wasn't competing against a bunch of swollen PED monsters for statistical comparisons, even though he did still play in an offensively favorable era.

Great arguments on Bob Johnson. I wouldn't have thought of him.

Albert Belle definitely deserves another look now that Dick Allen and Dave Parker got in.

He followed his brother Roy (no slouch either) into baseball late, likely accounting for his older major league debut. I always thought, as a complete ballplayer on mostly atrocious teams he gets overlooked. Put him on the Yankees, or even a good team from the era like the Tigers, Red Sox or Indians and I think he might already be in.

I absolutely agree. Can you imagine what his runs scored and RBI would look like with better hitters before and after him in the lineup? I mean, the guy led the American League in OPS as a 38 year old with Bobby Doerr and not much else around him in the Red Sox lineup.

His 1936-1942 Philadelphia A's teams were absolutely abysmal. They were at 53-55 wins per year in all but one, where they managed 64. Over that seven year period he averaged 97 runs scored, 107 RBI, 62 extra base hits, batting average of .298 and an OPS+ of 138. As basically the only guy in the lineup who could do damage.

I think the guy needs a second look from the committee and I will be reaching out to the committee members to request just that.