This Probably Won't Go Anywhere, But...
 

Why pay for the "privilege" of making someone rich by grading your cards? After listening to all the BS associated with grading, the time, the money, the anxiety, the annoyances and irritations, why do it?

You know your cards better than some evaluator.

If for some reason I were to decide to sell any of my high-value cards; Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, DiMaggio, Williams, Mantle, etc., etc. etc., I would ask what any like card(s) would sell for, graded or otherwise. If someone doesn't buy it or them, guess what? I don't give a flying f!

Of course I keep my high value items either in a professional grade safe in my house or the bank safe deposit box.

My wife and daughter know what is in my collection, and like me, believe that grading is nothing more than a means to make someone rich.

I don't want my cards encased in ridiculous slabs. I don't care what someone else's opinion(s) of my cards are. If you want to buy them, you'll pay up, or take a walk.

Grading is a way to make someone rich...you. It has been proven time and again that graded cards sell for more than raw. There's no point in fighting that whether or not you agree with it.

Do what you want and let others do what they want. Easy peasy.

I believe what he is saying is that he will price his cards at what he believes the graded value would be based upon his own evaluation of condition. Hence, obtaining the "graded" price without the cost of grading. And that buyers are welcome to pay his price or not. He doesn't give a "f".

And fwiw, I agree with him.

Thank you!

...

I agree with everything you said, James. There are countless thousands of undergraded, overgraded and altered cards sitting in slabs. Trusting graders is like trusting one of the three-letter news channels or Google's fact-checker to deliver objective news.

Like it or not, for many people spending more than $20-$100 on a card they care more about PSA/SGC/etc opinion on a specific card moreso than almost any dealer or collector.

If this issue needed to be dealt with by the hobby, it should have been done 20+ years ago. Barring some extremely significant scandal it's probably not going anywhere...and we're not talking about a scattering of over-grading or missed alterations of cards.

At this point it's not only ingrained, but it's rudimentary entry-level collector stuff. The amount of new/novice collectors asking "Should I get this graded?" is extremely common.

Anyone can choose to make their own stand, but the hobby is strongly standing on the ground of grading services having a voice in the value of cardboard.

Once in a while I'll try and articulate this point, and I'm never quite sure if I'm getting it across the way I want. But I keep trying.

I view things like registry competition, protection from damage, etc. as byproducts (whether good or bad) of the real advantage that grading provides, which is the ability to buy online with some degree of confidence in what you're getting. For those of us who've been in the hobby for a while, of COURSE we know our cards better than anyone, and of COURSE the plastic holder prevents people from really getting to know an issue (i.e. paper stock, printing, etc).

Not long ago, our ability to collect was driven by the cards we had access to, either in our own geographic areas (via shows, trading groups, friends, etc) or folks that advertised in hobby publications. The internet gave us access to an entire universe of cards! Building a complete 1933 Goudey set once was a pursuit that might take a person his entire life. With the internet, and enough money, you could do it in a week!

The problem with this, of course, is that it could be more trouble than it's worth to buy online if all the cards were ungraded. One man's VG/EX is another man's EX/MT. I still remember buying a 1949 Bowman Johnny Vander Meer as a kid from a dealer that called the card MINT. I owned it for a while, and then tried to include it in a trade it back to him, and he told me it was VG at best.

Having that third party evaluation isn't going to be 100% accurate 100% of the time, but if you're buying online, sight unseen or through a scan, having a slab that says "this card is in near mint condition" can give you a reasonable amount of confidence in what is going to arrive in the mail.

Yes, grading has created an entire group of problems that didn't exist in the hobby beforehand, but at its core, I truly believe that grading has done far more good than bad, by allowing us to trust technology and grow our collections.

-Al

We've already had the major scandal. Nothing changed.

My only issue with grading is that if a card is more valuable then it costs more to grade, which I think is preposterous. Why should it cost me more if I'm grading a 1952 Topps Mantle, then it would if I was grading a 1952 Topps Johnny Mize? The process is identical, it's not like anything should be done inherently different for one card than the other.

agree...this is my #1 gripe with TPG.

You know the answer.

Getting a loan from a loan shark is more reasonable than having to cough up the kind of coin for grading a 52 Mantle. That is freaking highway robbery.

Butch Turner

James, you can feel that way, but I truly believe that a majority of the vintage collecting group want high dollar cards in slabs. Period. End of story.

If you want to sell and it is worth over lets say 1k, it should be slabbed. It is just the way it is.

...

While your opinions on the topic are understandable I do believe that you are doing your wife and daughter a disservice by relaying those feelings. At some point they may have to deal with selling a collection should you leave it behind and there is just no way you would be able to convince me that (unless they are deeply involved in the hobby with you) they will be able to navigate selling raw cards without getting taken advantage of. I would imagine an attempt which will end in either underselling the material or not being able to sell it at all (if they believe that they not getting a fair offer) ending with ultimately selling for far less than it is worth just to end the frustration.

It’s Unfortunately The Reality
 

I don’t like having to grade cards. The reality is you need to if you want someone to buy your high value cards. I was burnt in the early days of my collecting finding many of my raw cards were trimmed, altered, or over graded. So now I only buy graded cards and am happy to do so. Eventually me or my heirs will need to sell the collection I have built. When that happens I know it will be a lot easier to get a fair price.

There will be no revolt against the grading companies. It is in high value collectors’ interest to use them.i don’t understand grading commons, reprints or many modern cards with massive supply.But if you have a 52 Mantle you have to get it graded given few ungraded pass the authenticity test.

?Peter, you wouldn't have a RC of Sancho Panza available by any chance?

Of course, Peter. I think we all do. It just doesn't sit right with me. I know the rose tinted nostalgia glasses only highlight the good and not the bad, but the Hobby was in a significantly better place in terms of being just a hobby, years ago.

Does an art restorer charge more to restore the Mona Lisa than some random painting in your living room? It's not about the exact action they are performing, it's that they are being entrusted with the possession and care of a very valuable item and have to take that in consideration in pricing. Potential liability is a part of a business's overhead. And all overhead is baked into the pricing structure. The only other way would be to raise grading costs for every card and spread the cost out. But that would be too big a pill for their average consumer to swallow, so they won't do it. Their bread and butter is grading a million base cards a month, not 5 52 Mantles.

In my opinion this comparison should be like comparing apples to oranges. Our hobby should not reflect what goes on the art world. But that's neither here nor there. I know Why it costs more, I'm saying it shouldn't, it's not fair to the average collector.

Remove the art restorer analogy. You are getting caught up in it. I wasn't treating cards like artwork. I just randomly chose a service where the same action performed costs different depending on how valuable the item they are performing it on. It could literally be any service. It costs more to change the oil on a Lambourgini than it does a Chevy. If you know why it costs more, then you wouldn't say it shouldn't. It costs more to the consumer because it costs more to PSA. Simple as that. And I just explained why it is actually more fair to the average collector. The average collector isn't sending 52 Mantles to get graded. If they spread the cost of risk for those grading 52 Mantles across the board, the average consumer would be paying $99 to grade a base card instead of $20.

My collection is exclusively made up of collector grade cards. I don't really run into registry issues and I think people who do are doing it to themselves. I have no issue with TPA's and appreciate having my cards in a slab.

So do I!

:cool:

But neither am I selling any of the cards in my collection. Nor will I be in the foreseeable future.

;)

From an original collection.

It's a shame but if, and when, I sell these they will need to be put in slabs. The answer is always the same, money.

Very tough short print, on my grail list.

This. All of this.

If the cards are valuable it's highly likely the OP's family will eventually be taken advantage of, or, the cards will eventually be consigned by a family member and graded anyway.
Even if a "honest" dealer buys the cards for what the OP or his family thinks is a fair price, but then grades the cards and sells them for multiples of what was paid for them, hasn't the OP still been robbed? Only in the last scenario the OP robbed himself.


No one has to participate but grading is here to stay. At this point it's like riding around horse pulled buggy and complaining about the horseless carriage.

I’m just always confused why people that spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on essentially pictures of dudes are so aghast that other people spend a couple dozen more dollars to put the picture of the dude in a plastic case.

Because they think that by facilitating the transition of cards from collectibles to investments, grading has caused their acquisition costs to increase.

Haven't they always been investments though? The Wagner T206 has been an expensive card since it was printed. We've all seen the old Wanted Ads where people are constantly offering big money even at a time when cards were selling for pennies.

I would also hope the person cleaning your random living room painting is not the same guy working on the Mona Lisa.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

For me, there's a simple way of looking at this particular issue...

Getting a card graded isn't about ME as a collector, it's about the NEXT PERSON who will eventually own it - whether it is me selling it in the future or my eventual heirs doing it after I’ve become nothing but the dust on someone’s coffee table.

Ninety nine times out of a hundred (yes, this a generalized stat, so keep your pants on, contrarians, and don't start doing a deep dive into the numbers to try to disprove it - just finding enough supporting data showing the same card being sold before and after grading will be an extremely tough hill to climb, but I digress), a graded card will sell for more than its ungraded counterpart, so it just makes moving cards on to the next owners (for me or said heirs) that much easier.

I have cracked out north of 1,000 graded cards, submitted 0 (if I was selling something high grade nice, I might do it because it might be more profitable, but there is 0 point in grading until you sell), and have ~75 or so in slabs now largely because I've had to promise sellers I will not crack them out in order to get them from people who know my penchant to liberate everything:). I agree it is a stupid game, paying money for an appeal to authority to an unknown person at a company who is demonstrably incompetent over and over and over and over again. It's stupid, but if it makes money people will do anything, so it isn't going to change and while it can be fodder for some amusement it's not worth getting angry over or telling your buyers to fuck off for not paying graded prices for your raw cards or that you don't give a flying fuck what they think or want. Not many deals are closed for anything that way. You can't control other people, nor should anyone, so let them do what they want, have a laugh when PSA does something funny, and collect how you like.

Precisely!

Not to me they don't. I won't pay a premium for a card just because it's slabbed. As a result, I usually just pass over slabbed cards.

:(

graded
 

Agreed !

When was this? And surely the trimmed/altered cards you bought weren't from standard post-War Topps sets?


You really think so? Reprinted/counterfeit or just trimmed? And have the grading companies not demonstrated abject incompetence, fraud even, at detecting trimming?

:confused:

Huh?! I don't understand. Why would the seller be the least bit interested in you cracking the card out of its slab?

:confused:

What happens when you die and the cards fall into the hands of people who aren't well-versed in value of baseball cards? Do you trust people in the hobby to pay your survivors fair market value for a raw card? I don't.

Based on the information we have seen to date, unfortunately we can't take them with us.......

Exactly...while I'm not a fan at all of TPG'ing...I will not live forever...and even if I did...there's a high likelihood I will be selling my cards before I die...I have noone to leave them to.

This is why grading is important to me...so my cards are liquid/set up to receive maximum return when I decide to sell.

What incidentally is the cost of grading/slabbing a NM common from 1959 or 1960?

:confused:

At the moment, $15-20 (give or take) for PSA, depending on whether you get a bulk deal or not, and whether they're running a special. There's a chance it could run you a bit more if it grades for higher than you expect, or if there's something really special about the card that causes it to be worth more than your average common from those years.

I certainly understand why James is so aggravated by the grading racket. And I have nothing against his consistent desire to avoid it, and disparage the whole business every chance he gets.

As others have noted, the world has changed since we were kids. Back then, most cards changed hands in person, and you could inspect them until you were really confident about condition. Plus your total outlay was usually pennies, unless you were buying something really special, so the price tag associated with being wrong was small. Any deal that didn't happen in person probably only occurred between a buyer who really trusted the seller and their ability to accurately grade cards and weed out the doctored stuff.

These days, if you want to get top value when you sell, particularly if you have really nice stuff that will command top dollar, then grading is the most likely path to make it happen. You can certainly try to sell them for top dollar as top condition raw cards. While the Biebs taught us to "never say never", my experience is that will be a really heavy lift.

Naturally, if you have stuff that is really low grade and not particularly valuable, then you probably don't give up much by skipping the grading. Particularly if a buyer has a chance to inspect your cards in person before they buy. And if I understand James' collecting habits, this might be the case, so maybe it will work fine for him and/or his successors in cardboard.

This Probably Won't Go Anywhere, But...
 

It's intriguing to me that this subject never seems to go more than a few months without rearing it's ugly head again. But it's well-tilled ground at this point. For James, it's really well-tilled ground...

When I first became aware of graded cards in the early 2000's, I hated slabs and the entire concept too. I thought they looked clinical and clunky and extremely out of place, and the information they divulged on the flip was something that I thought informed collectors should be mostly aware of in the first place. But as others have pointed out, over the years - the means to the end for the slab - particularly for those of us who buy online without being able to physically inspect every single thing first, and the ability to get something at least somewhere in the correct condition ballpark for the price we are paying - is extremely helpful. For me beyond that, slabs are a decent holder with an opinion on it. Nothing more. I too have cracked many slabs, sometimes because I just don't like the aesthetic of the particular slab, or the way the card moves in it, or something pretty trivial. But I understand their purpose now.

I would also agree with those who have said that ship has sailed, automobiles are here to stay, etc. etc. There are many things I still dislike about grading today, even without the noted scandals - grading is a human endeavor and thus far from perfect - but at some point you either put up with the way the world works, or you increasingly have a hard time living in it.

I also think that it's just foolish today if you have Ruths, Cobbs, Gehrigs, Mantle rookies, what have you in any condition, and you don't have them in slabs. Sorry. Sure, you can collect "not for the money", but to just be seemingly totally ignorant of some cards and their value for your future, or your future heirs at this point is dumb. Keep your heads in the sand if you like, but nobody is going to live forever, even if you don't get hit by a bus next week. If you just "don't care" and whoever winds up with the cards after you are gone gets taken or loses money and oh well, that's that! - fine, but you are being silly and irresponsible IMO.

As others have echoed many times before - wouldn't it be boring if we all collected the same thing? Wouldn't it also be boring if we all collected in exactly the same WAY?

LOL Don Q.

Some people like to collect vintage, some modern.

Some prefer baseball, others basketball or football or (really?) wrestling. Or Pokémon.

Some grimace if a card isn't centered to near perfection, others will happily scoop up a stack of beaters.

And ... some people will only put raw cards in their binders and boxes while others prefer their cards graded and encased in plastic. Still others of us have a healthy mix of the two.

Honestly, my baseball card collection is no better or worse than your rookie quarterbacks or ultra-modern hoops. Good restaurants have a varied menu for a reason. I never would criticize your collecting taste. I bristle when someone criticizes mine.

The only person with a better collection than yours is you when you add your next card.


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Probably a stupid question - but...

How many people have purchased an over-graded slabbed card because they thought the card would be valued for future sale based on the number on the flip (rather than on the technical grade it really should be)?

If you own raw cards and don't want to spend the money to have them graded, then nothing wrong with having the ability to hold the actual cardboard rather than a cold plastic slab.

I feel the same way. That said, I’m not going to sit here and pretend I don’t understand why people feel differently. During WWII, your priorities were God, country, family in that order. Now they’re money, money, family (maybe).

Take into consideration a collector and/or investor financial state.

Some of us are wealthy enough outside of our cards that we are more free to do as we please with our cards. If you are fortunate enough to have a good paying job, own a home(s), have a retirement pension, and have a significant chunk of change in other investments, then go ahead enjoy the hobby as you like - slab or raw, pass your cards down, take them to the grave, whatever your heart desires.

However, some of us are not that fortunate. For us our cards represent an honest part of our retirement savings. We need to maximize our card value holdings to help fill out our retirement income. Thus we grade our cards so we can realize all we can out of our holdings. We are trying to do the best we can with what we have.

We are all in different boats in this thing called life.

My situation is we own our pool home outright, no mortgage, have 3 very lucrative pensions. Since I retired from the Navy, my medical is free other than the mandatory Medicare, which is automatically deducted from my Navy retirement. I'm doing fine.

I have some very nice, highly desirable, high end cards and memorabilia. Yes I have some beaters. None of my high end cards are anything less than high end, and would grade accordingly.

I'm not trying to set up cards as some sort of investment. I don't care about that sort of thing. That's when it stops being a hobby for me. Your mileage may vary, and that's fine, just not my bag.

Thus, I'm not going to pay one cent for someone's opinion of my cards. When either I or my wife or daughter ever sell them, they will go for whatever like graded examples go for or they won't be sold. Period, end of discussion.

Every graded card I have ever had has been cracked. I like raw cards; I have no desire for bulky, cumbersome slabs of plastic.

As Howard Cosell would have said, I told it like it is. For me. I am not going to help someone, somewhere get inherently rich opinonating or verifying the authenticity or whatever over my cards.

I like that the argument cards are not or should not be about money is prefaced with a paragraph about being well-off financially and a pool home. Those who do not receive three pensions and do not get their needs taken care of by the taxpayers might understandably have to deal with money at some point as a reality. I like cards as a hobby and not an investment people but there's nothing wrong with other people making money and these frequent screeds are pointless anger.

This quote seems a bit delusional to me. It's not how the market works, and most likely not how your heirs will feel either.

Well, sorry, but they feel the same as me. It is what it is to me, still a hobby. I am well off. But I have other things to do and buy other than cardboard, and someone else's greed doesn't define my hobby.

James, WE GET IT! Damn.

If the cards were purchased well before this recent price runup (which has been going on for a few years now), then there may be some legitimacy to this, but purchasing cards today seems like a big risk if it's considered part of a retirement plan.

I wonder what a financial adviser would say about considering cardboard a part of a retirement strategy. But then again, my guess is there are not many financial advisers with enough hobby know how to really address this. I wonder what percentage of a retirement portfolio would be a "safe" amount of money to tie into cards as an investment vehicle.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jingram058 View Post
When either I or my wife or daughter ever sell them, they will go for whatever like graded examples go for or they won't be sold. Period, end of discussion.


I wouldn't call that delusional. For all we know he could have some pretty "interesting" cards that are raw that people would absolutely pay for. As an overall strategy for all cards, perhaps a bit ambitious.


That reminds me, I need to put together something for my family in case I get hit by a bus in the next couple of days.

TJ - do you practice estate planning? If so, it'd be neat to hear some thoughts you have for card board investing. For example, designating them for inheritance, etc.

Fred, yes over 90% of my cards were purchased before the big covid run-up. I was fortunate they have grown in value significantly. So much so that they now represent the majority of my retirement savings. I do own my own home outright, however, I have no pension or company retirement plan as I am self-employed. I did not plan it that way, but I guess I lucked out to have the chips fall where they may. It will be difficult to part with them some day when money is needed for retirement. Until then, I enjoy my cards very much, take pride in ownership, and love collecting the lesser cards I can afford. Yes, I agree purchasing big cards at today's prices could be more risky than ever before. This past year I have invested what I could into Bitcoin, not big cards. Again, I thank my lucky stars Bitcoin has done well and has a bright future. Between shrewd investments, a little luck, and the smarts to save what I can and not over spend, I should be fine come retirement in a few years.

It's well established at this point both how you feel, and the fact that by nature pretty much all of us are in different situations, or at least span the width of a variety of situations which may or may not play into how we make decisions about our collections.

simple.

i buy cards over $100 , and up, in slabs, b/c i CANNOT tell a trim job of 1/32nd of an inch.

i buy in collector grades (1-5) , i buy the CARD, not the flip, focus on centering
and then corners, AND the slab gives me a bit more comfort that the card is NOT altered.

i only collect major hall of famers, and i really enjoy cracking a card out, (and re-submitting it) if i feel it deserves a higher grade. this is FUN to me.

Well said Mike +1

NM.

Somebody should point out the detail that neither cards nor Bitcoin kick off any income stream let alone one that's likely to grow. Nor are they actually capable of kicking off an income stream. Meaning as financial instruments I wouldn't call either an "investment". Just speculations, and rather rank ones.

:rolleyes:

Now you’ve gone and done it, invoking the “s” word! Going to get a whole bunch of people riled up now!!!

Just doing my part to keep the forum lively.

;)

Why does something have to throw off an income stream to be deemed an investment?

My experience is that financial advisors will suggest 5% to 10% in “alternative assets” is fine. Usually I see that in connection with someone who is trying to push a particular investment, like forestland.

At the moment, while my own percentage tied up in cardboard has declined recently, due to a focus on other assets recently, plus a run up in the price of other assets recently, I still have an uncomfortably high percentage tied up in cardboard. The good news/bad news is that I don’t really need the cardboard for my retirement, and also have never really been focused on the investment element, but every little bit helps.

Because without the element of a potential income stream at some point down the road, a buyer is merely hoping/speculating that another buyer will pay more for the asset without a quantifiable rationale. If any or every such purchase can be dignified as an investment, then there is no way such purchases can be differentiated from putting money down on the ponies, in Las Vegas or on lottery tickets. Yet the latter purchases/bets under standard nomenclature are termed "gambling" not "investment".

There is a lane for the investment "flipping" world that's guided by intelligent speculation, even some based in an established reality of the moment.

During COVID, many people holding onto traditionally "safe" 70/30 - 40/60 stocks/bonds ratio were seeing a give and take of their returns as the market bounced around favoring one or the other.

People getting ahead of trends were banking, especially ones that show themselves enough to be a reliable event. My lane was buying oil/gas stocks when China announced major manufacturing area shutdowns (down) and selling when those areas reopened (up). There were 4+ major fluctuations during the COVID era that led to great returns.

There's room for speculators that don't need a steady supplement to their income from dividends/etc.

To bring it back to cards, I invest in what I consider under-valued graded cards of guys that I feel will make the HOF in my lifetime. Somewhat recently, the 15+ years I spent bidding low and snapping up Jim Kaat RC's paid off extremely well. I didn't consider him an "if" candidate, I considered him a "when" candidate.

I look forward to much of the same with Luis Tiant in the near future.

I found the following definitions of Investment online, searching "Investment defined" on google:


"An investment refers to any asset that is obtained for cost on the grounds that it is expected to provide value in the future that will exceed its initial cost and time to value."

"Investing, broadly, is putting money to work for a period of time in a project or undertaking to generate positive returns (profits that exceed the amount of the initial investment). It's the act of allocating resources, usually capital (i.e., money), with the expectation of generating an income, profit, or gains."

"the outlay of money usually for income or profit" (Merriam Webster)

"the act of putting money, effort, time, etc. into something to make a profit or get an advantage, or the money, effort, time, etc. " (Cambridge Dictionary)

It seems all of the above definitions require the same elements for an investment:
1. Actually laying out money
2. To acquire an asset
3. Intending to make a profit/more money than was laid out

There is no requirement that the asset produce income, rather that the one expects to earn more than they paid for asset.

The difference between cards and "gambling" is that in gambling you are not acquiring an asset/seeking to profit from an asset.

Cards are 100% an asset and I 100% invest in cards (and have done well - its been a good investment).

I’ve said it before, but I’ll repeat it again. I don’t think the speculative term is meaningful when it comes to investments, simply because the line gets really fuzzy at times.

But there’s a definite difference between productive and unproductive assets. Gold, Bitcoin, cardboard, all unproductive assets. Farmland, income-generating companies, etc. fall into the productive bucket.

Certainly there’s nothing wrong with unproductive assets, although some might take offense at the name. Just a different flavor with different characteristics, and a different approach to valuing them. Plus with unproductive assets, you usually can’t get much (economically) from them while you hold onto them. With a productive asset, you might get something while you hold and wait for the right time to sell. But even with productive assets, plenty of them don’t deliver much while you wait for the right time to sell.

As an added challenge, many nonproductive assets, including cardboard, often have ongoing costs to hold them. Even if it’s just storage costs, it’s something. And if you have insurance, the costs are usually more.

Despite not normally generating an income stream, gold (and silver) straddles the line between unproductive and productive. Given its unique characteristics, e.g. the single most malleable plus the single most ductile metal and its complete resistance to corrosion under any natural circumstances, it's a very useful substance. That's why it has several thousand years of history in coinage and decorative applications such as jewellery. And because it's an excellent conductor as well, it now has its uses in high tech electronics as well.

But what's actually most important these days for gold is that its long history in coinage applications has given it cachet as an alternative to government fiat currencies. Therefore when everything goes to hell in a handbasket and government money isn't worth the paper upon which it's printed (that's the history), gold and siver will be the only currencies accepted for transactions. (And of course when everything does collapse and an alternative currency is actually needed, Bitcoin accounts will have disappeared with the internet.)

:(

Don’t forget that Bitcoin has some decorative value too!

Bold to predict that the thing we never shut up about would go nowhere, but if the question is why someone wouldn’t rely on the opinion of a stranger who's trying to sell them the card in lieu of the opinion of a stranger who's not trying to sell them the card, well, that's a bit silly.

I would hope they put more of an effort into grading and authenticating a card worth thousands than they do one worth less than a hundred; though I have no idea if the use more resources for this or not.

I detest grading and crack them all out if I buy one or get it in a trade. PSA is the worst. Aside from being built on a complete lie with the first card, they are incompetent.
Wildly inconsistent grading.

Last week, I sold a card on eBay. It was over 250, so my funds were "on hold" while they "authenticated" it. A week after arriving at the authenticator, I had heard nothing. I got in touch with someone and they were very nice. They said the authenticator noticed a slight stain on the back that I did not say in my description. This is despite my extra large photos of the back and there being no stain!
They said they contacted the buyer and he said he "knew the condition of the card to ship it to him and stop f'ing around so he can get it before Christmas!"

They are supposedly going to authenticate it now. So, there was not even a question of whether it was authentic. Now they are questioning stains and who knows what else. When I bought the card years ago, it was PSA3 with no qualifiers.

Makes me furious

In reference to post #74, I didn't realize ebay or PSA would debate the grade of a card they already slabbed, that's just crazy. What are they going to do, say it's the wrong grade and shoot themselves in the foot (assuming the card is in a PSA slab)? Yes, that would be annoying. It'd be funny as hell if the authenticator determined the card was trimmed and the flip is incorrect (should be an A rather than numerical grade - probably zero chance of that occurring).

The following is from ebay:

The seller ships your card to the authentication facility, where PSA inspects every item. For ungraded cards, PSA experts verify authenticity through a multi-point inspection, and then carefully review listing details for accuracy. For graded cards, PSA experts authenticate each case and label. No regrading is performed.

It would be interesting to see if PSA would start offering grading services for ungraded cards during the "authentication" process. Pay the fee, the card is slabbed, registered, and shipped. I wonder what the turn around time would be for that service.

If I understood campy right, it sounds like he cracked it out long ago, and is reselling it now. But happens to remember the slab it used to reside in. So the current authentication is authenticating a raw card.

Of course, I may have misinterpreted the situation entirely.

You are correct. I don't have any slabbed cards and any that I obtain I crack out. when i bought this card a long tie ago, it was a PS3 with no qualifier.

My contention is that they have had the card since Tuesday morning and have yet to "authenticate" it. I was able to get someone on the phone today to find out what was going on. There was not any question that the card is authentic, but they claim there was a "light stain" on the back that was not specifically listed in the description. There is no stain.

The messaged the buyer and he said he reviewed all of the large pictures I provided and he wanted them to hurry up and ship him the card.

So I guess if you list any card more than $250 on ebay, just having 8 pictures is not enough. You have to inspect it and list any possible flaw in the description. I may just stick to the BST and facebook groups when I have something to sell.

I think raw card authentication bases their condition review off the stated condition in the drop down menu on the listing. If you select Nm or better, or Excellent, etc... they will make sure it meets that threshold. It has saved me thousands in the past where major damage was hidden in the pictures. They caught the damage and reached out to me. I requested pictures of the damage and they sent me close up images of the damage.

You don't have to disclose every flaw, but you do need to select the right card condition. And if it's close, they reach out to the buyer to make sure they are ok with it. Which is a fantastic way to do it for raw cards online. The only downside is time. But a few more days to receive a card is nothing to making sure the buyer is fully informed of the condition.

For the seller, the more information you include the less likely you will run into these delays. Good pictures help inform the buyer, but won't overcome a poor description or choosing the wrong condition level in your listing.

While it's great you take good pictures, that is the old way to make sure condition is as described. Authentication doesn't rely on that now that it gets evaluated in person before shipped to the buyer.

Q: How do you know if someone is a vegan?

A: They will tell you.

Q: How do you know if someone has only raw cards in his collection?

A: He will tell you. Repeatedly.

Update: got a congrats email saying the card was authenticated. Yay!
Now maybe Monday I will finally get paid for a card I sold 13 days ago.