Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.
 

There is a long running thread on the Bond Bread controversy (1947 BOND BREAD and its "importers"....show us your cards ?) By Ted Zanidakis - it is an amazingly good thread, full of good information, but it is long. Everyone should take time to check it out, if you are into Bond Bread. I will give my opinion on what I have read there. Please chime in if I miss something, I am no expert by any means. I just want to recap and update the Bond Bread controversy here. … 1947 BOND BREAD and its "importers"....show us your cards ? By Ted Zanidakis.

All these years and we can not agree on what is a legitimate Bond Bread card. We have 1947 rounded corner cards, 1947 square cards, 1949 square cards-that emerged as a standalone product sold as “Sport Star Subjects”, and the re-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's…24 cards in that set. All these cards were 2 ¼ x 3 ½, but on different paper.

Ted Zanidakis had first hand knowledge on what should be considered Bond Bread cards, he collected these cards directly from Bond Bread packages. They were on thin white stock with round corners. Bond Bread cards were packaged in loaves of Bond Bread, and at least one theory for their rounded corners is that the cards were less susceptible to damage that way. Importantly for collectors today, the rounded corners help distinguish these cards from near-identical versions that emerged as a standalone product sold as “Sport Star Subjects” in 1947 and 1949.

We also have people who say they collected 1947 square cards that were not inserted into Bond Bread; printed on heavier card-stock not as white, more on the gray side. These 1947 square cards should not be called Bond Bread since they were not inserted into Bond Bread. Although the two mentioned cards are virtually identical, but still, many people say they collected 1947 square first hand in boxes as a stand alone. ie, “Sports Star”.

This means that we have two distinct issues: for the year 1947; Bond Bread package inserts and stand alone, “Sports Star”. Meaning 1947 Bond Bread round cornered, and 1947 Sports Star Bond Bread squared cornered cards.

We also have the 1949 square cards…”Sports Star” said to have come out in 1949. But remember we have statements from various collectors who say they received the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects sets in packets in 1947, it appears to me that it is incorrect to assume those sets were not issued until 1949-1950.

Yes, cards did come out in 1949 as Sports Star cards, but these were just re-prints of 1947 Sports Star cards, I do not believe anyone can tell if they are from 1947 or 1949 since they are exactly the same. These cards should be called Sports stars and not Bond Bread cards , even though many have the same image on them.

Now up to date, Bond Bread did produce Aarco Bond Bread Exhibit cards in 1947, many with the same images as the Bond Bread inserts; 3 1/16 x 4 ¾ in. believed to have been distributed through penny arcades. But this size is not listed in the standard catalog of vintage baseball cards 4 edition. Many people assign these cards to W571, but that is wrong.

Also in 1947 Bond Bread produced premium baseball cards that were 6-5/8 in x 9 in. The exhibit and premium cards should not be called Bond Bread cards, but Bond Bread exhibit and premium Bond Bread cards.

As for the Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's, you can tell they are not from 1947 or 1949 by looking at the back of the cards, they are more brown than the white or gray stock used to print on. As a matter of fact - the 1947 and 1949 square cards and the exhibit, and the premium are printed on the same gray looking stock, whereas the Bond Bread round cornered cards were on a whiter and a little bit thinner and glossy stock. It is very obvious that the Festberg discoveries are inferior reproductions of the original 1947-1949 cards.

Full disclosure: I only collect baseball cards that match photos I have, and I do have two other threads on this subject running; Bond Bread card size, and card size. Please have a look.

I have a few photos that match the “Bond Bread” cards. That's why I have done my research on Bond Bread cards. Here are some of the pictures I have - to show the difference, look at the front and back of the cards. John.

Well then, please check the attached example and tell me what era you believe it may fit into this discussion.


Butch Turner

"Well then, please check the attached example and tell me what era you believe it may fit into this discussion."

In my opinion...it is a 1947-1949 card! Once again... I am no expert by any means. John. What size is the card?

This should keep you going for the next hour or so....It was started about 15 1/2 yrs ago by Teddy Z (RIP)...

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=92743

Yes I hope I was clear on that. It is one of the best threads on Bond Bread. But at the same time we have new information or a better understanding of the facts, this is what this thread is about. Thanks for putting up the ink, from Ted Z. John

I see that you did select an era. I would certainly like to believe that to be the case. But I have no proof and am just happy to have the cards I have.



Butch Turner

I believe that card to be from the large find which I believe occurred in the 70s. I have no idea when these were made, but they are not treated as original in the hobby in my opinion..

I believe this is correct and have no other empirical data to go on. I bought these when I was a member of the Baseball Card Society and have the information sheets that both Apfelbaum and Feldstein sent to the members discussing these cards.

Here is an example with rulers. Sorry about the ruler on the side it slipped an 1/16th of an inch.

Regards,

Butch Turner

If the card is 2 1/4 x 3 1/2, and since it is a squared card, it would be a “Sports Star” card, 1947 or 1949, But most of the time it will be listed as a W571 / D305 -Bond Bread card. John

It is 2 1/4 by 3 1/2. However, there is no way to prove that it is from that set. Any association to that series or any other series was long gone by the time they were discovered.

Still cool to own and I like them all.

B.T.

You are right, there is no way to prove that it is 100% from the “Sports Star” set. or any set. But we have first hand knowledge ,people who collected this cards in 1947-1949. I will take first hand knowledge over any other. And yes, they are very cool cards. Fun to have and look at. John

There is a copy of the Baseball card society letter on the original thread, this is what Ted Z wrote about that letter:

From the original By Ted Zanidakis thread: "This document appears to be the evidence regarding the source of the RE-printed "1947 Bond Bread" cards which David Festberg discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's. It is not dated, however in it's text it implies a circa 1980's date, which does coincide with Festberg's find. Plus, the fact that 24 cards are being advertised. The original BOND BREAD set of cards consists of 48 cards.

When I first saw these cards in the early 1990's at the Philly Show, I purchased several of them. When I got home, I compared them to my original 1947 BOND BREAD cards, which I collected in my youth. And, it was very obvious, that these were inferior reproductions." TED Z

The cards you have does not look inferior in anyway, but a true 1947-1949 card to me, and that's where I would place it. John

You will also find my copy of the letter as well. I still have that and the invoice from when I bought them.

Butch Turner

Can you post them? Where did you buy them? I thought the letter was to warn people about the re-prints from the 1980s, I did not know about the find in the 1970s. I try to copy the original letter but could not, what date is on yours.

This is good knowledge to have.Thank you for your opinion, but many people take them as original. And that is what this thread is about, it is good to get other opinions. My research gives one opinion and your another. Look at the Edwards Auction, if those cars had brown backs and of inferior quality, they would not say they were 1947-1949 cards.

Lot 42: Square Corner Bond Bread Complete Baseball Card Set (24) w/ Jackie Robinson, Stan Musial, Phil Rizzuto, Joe Louis - 1947-49?
Richard L. Edwards Auctioneer Greenville, OH, US April 15, 2023
Item Overview / Description, Square Corner Bond Bread Complete Baseball Card Set (24) w/ Jackie Robinson, Stan Musial, Phil Rizzuto, Joe Louis - 1947-49? John

I would love to say that they are original. They do check some notable boxes but.... Problem is that there are way more questions than answers to the questions. And Ted Z as well as Leon have commented about these as well over the years. I take their word as gospel.

Here you go.

Cheers,

Thank you, I do appreciate your help with this thread. With all due respect I have a question for you. Butch, with your own proof, why do you question if the cards you have are not original? The letter you have says…”the most unique sets of baseball cards ever produced - 1947 Homogenized Bond set.”
“40-year-old cards”. "Every one of The 24 cards are in gem mint condition -exactly as they were printed more than 40 years ago.”

I notice there is no date on the letter, but if we go back 40 years from 1970-1980 we come to the years-1930-1940. Therefore the cards you have would be in those eras. Also your letter says, "The 1947 Homogenized Bond set, which was printed for only one year, contained 48 cards in all (44 baseball players and 4 boxers. We purchased the best of the set--24 cards in all---from the dealers's widow."

Therefore, you would have the 24 set card from 1947. Thanks again, John.

Here is a link to Bob Lemke's Blog - Saturday, April 16, 2011.
This page basically backs up the Baseball Card Society letter form above. Thanks to butchie t posting.

“The most recent information provided sheds some light on a variant of what the hobby knows as the "Bond Bread" issue of 1947. In reality, the New York baker was only one of several businesses that used a series of 44 baseball player cards and four boxers as promotions in the post-war era.

The genesis of the cards was a Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards, that originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. The cards are black-and-white, blank-backed, 2-1/4" x 3-3/8" with rounded corners. Photos are borderless portraits or posed action shots with a facsimile autograph or script name.

That year, the N.Y. baker of Bond Bread evidently contracted with Aarco to obtain a quantity of the cards for distribution in loaves of bread. Later, for reasons unknown, square-cornered versions of half the cards in the set, printed on different card stock, were also produced.

Besides the boxed set and bread cards, much of the checklist of this set, along with at least one player that didn't appear in the original form, was used in a series of Exhibit-style larger-format cards and in a set of premium pictures in 6-5/8" x 9" format.

There was also a seldom-seen variant using the baseball/boxer pictures on one side, paired with Western movie stars on the backs. These were issued in perforated sheets.” (Bob Lemke's Blog). https://boblemke.blogspot.com/2011/0...ond-bread.html John.

The "seldom seen variant"...seen

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...son-Cagney.jpg

My parents ordered me a set of the 24 square cornered cards for Christmas, I want to say, 1988-89. I don't remember getting a letter, but I was given a copy of the ad from the newspaper (either NY Newsday or Daily News) that they were ordered from, which had a very similar description as the letter that Butchie T posted. Unfortunately, I don't have it any longer...(I know I have the cards packed away somewhere, because I have never sold any of my collection, I just don't know where).
What I can say, is that the backs of them were much lighter than your photo. They have a cream colored back that is almost white and the cardboard stock is very thin. I now know that I am going to have to tear apart my attic to track these down.

Thank you, I would bet they are Bond Bread 1947 W571/D0305. Or Aarco Playing Cards, who originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects, printed on a whiter more on the cream side then the 1947 square corner printed on heaver more on the gray side of paper. If you ever get the time can you post a couple here, so we can see. Thanks John.

Attachment 642006 more like this, cream color.

My friends mother purchased a set for him and he told me that she purchased them from an ad in the NY Times. There are images of all of them in post #53 in the old thread.

i may have mispoken when i said "find" in the 70's. I was referring tpo the festburg find.

To quote Bob Lemke’s blog, “Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards, that originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. The cards are black-and-white, blank-backed, 2-1/4" x 3-3/8" with rounded corners. Photos are borderless portraits or posed action shots with a facsimile autograph or script name.”

In 1947, “the N.Y. baker of Bond Bread evidently contracted with Aarco to obtain a quantity of the cards for distribution in loaves of bread. Later, for reasons unknown, square-cornered versions of half the cards in the set, printed on different card stock, were also produced.”

Matt 74, I believe you could have the same set that butchie t has, the 24 set from the 1970-1980, from the Original sets printed in 1947, the photos above was to show 1947 Square Corner cards printed on a heavier gray stock than the originals. I do not have any of the originals that I can post. Thank you John.

Thank you Pete, (Ullmandds), you can tell the Festberg - discovered in a NJ warehouse in the 1980's…from the 1947 cards. By looking at the back of the cards, they are more brown than the white or gray stock used to print on. And the quality of printing, the pictures are not as sharp. If you post the back of the cards that would help. From the front of the cards you posted, they do not look like the 1980 Festberg find to me. John

The point that I am trying to make is….both the butchie t and Ullmandds, cards, who purchased their cards around the 1970-1980 - Is that I believe they are not from the1980s Festberg - discovered in NJ. As I understand it, we have sets from 1947: Aarco Playing Cards, that originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. The cards are black-and-white, blank-backed, 2-1/4" x 3-3/8" with rounded corners. Photos are borderless portraits or posed action shots with a facsimile autograph or script name.” And Bond Bread was printed the same as the Sports Star cards. Also we have square-cornered versions of half the cards in the set, printed on different card stock , in 1947. We can tell the difference from the reprints from the 1980s Festberg - discovered in NJ. and the cards printed in 1947.John.

I'm an outsider looking in, but
 

I've always respected TED Z in this matter. We collectors do not like to trample on toes, or offend where money or influence is involved, but how can anyone tell the difference between finding genuinely printed Bond Bread issues in a NJ warehouse and salted reprints hot from the presses ?

I would agree, we cannot tell between the 1947 genuine cars, but we can tell the 1980s Festberg finds from the 1947 cards. As for hot of the presses, the quality would not be as good in the pictures, because they would have to copy the genuine cards, unless they have the Original photos the cards were made from. I have 181 9x10 photos they could have been used to print the cards from. Many are the “Bond Bread cards", this is why I do not like to show the photo, because someone could use them to make cards, and we could not tell the difference. For this same reason we can tell the 1980 find, because of paper and the quality of the printing. But if someone did have photos like I the ones I have... they print up cards, if they went about using the right paper stock. If this happens, we could not tell them apart from the 1947 cards, or almost impossible to tell them apart.

Wait if a forensic expert went over the cards, then they could tell when the paper was made, and what kind of ink was used, it would almost be impossible to get ink and paper stock from the 1947, therefore the forensic person could tell the fake cards. But as collectors we could not. I was in the printing for over 40 years, and I don't know if I could tell the fakes if done right, with the matching stock and the original photo. John

I was thinking, I don’t mean to imply that the 1980s Festberg - discovered in NJ. are not good cards to have. On the contrary, anyone who has these cards has a piece of baseball history. Only that they are not from the 1947 cards issued. And they are not Bond Bread cards, since they were not but in the bread, this is what makes the Bond Bread issue so special. And again I do agree we cannot tell the Bond Bread cards from the Sports Star cards. John

To clarify...I was never under the impression mine is from the festburg find...nor is it an original bond bread. I always thought it was some other issue with a vintage from the 50's or so.

My best guess is you have 1947 cards, " Aarco Playing Cards 1947". Not having the cards in hand is hard to tell, but the quality is what one would expect and paper stock looks right, if there where re-prints from the 1950s, I believe we could tell just by looking at them. John

Here is what a copy or counterfeit card could and should look like in my opinion. The thing about the 1980s Festburg find is no one calls them fakes or counterfeits, just re-prints of 24 Bond Bread cards. Poor quality card looks like, I didn't mean to say counterfeit. John

Look at the back, the front set off on the back, I would say just stay away from cards that look like this one, again this is just my opinion.John

one more image on a card I would stay away from, could be a fake. John

John,

It all comes down to provenance. There is absolutely no way to tie these cards to a bread company or some other company that existed and printed them within the 47-48 timeframe. Someone that put that information in the letter to entice me to purchase even cannot or could not definitively state that these are actual Homogenized Bond Bread cards. He just claimed that they could be. At least that is what I have come to believe/understand now.

Now from a personal position I can see by comparing these cards to others within that time frame and much later, that they do compare themselves favorably to the earlier cards. But I am no expert and I have no other proof other than my hope.

Bottom line, until someone has enough gumption to actually do a serious amount of forensic work on these cards to actually place them in the 40's era, they remain a nice, somewhat expensive, novelty group of cards that I own.

I kept all the pertinent information from my purchase, including the invoice and the little tag that came with them. I can show my provenance but someone else has to do the gap tracking to actually get them to a documentable level that they can be cataloged as real.

Regards,

Butch

John, are the blank backed '47 Bond Bread rounded corners insert cards any rarer than those with the bread ad reverse? Great recap on a sometimes confusing set.

I feel like people overthink this set.

Bond Bread didn't print the cards, they simply bought the cards from a printer and used them. The original issue is on thicker stock and pretty easy to tell it is original.

The cards from the "find" are on old paper stock, not paper stock from the 1980's. They are left over stock from the 1940's or early 1950's. I don't know why collectors would shy away from them, they are legit 1940's-1950's cards.

I don't think that I have ever seen any that were actually printed in the 1980's.

If anything is a more modern fantasy piece, it is the exhibit issue. I wonder when these first appeared in hobby publications. They photos are grainy as if they are just enlarged versions of the smaller cards and the card stock is similar to the reprint exhibit cards that entered the hobby in the 1980's.

Butch, part of me agrees with you, but as you said, your cards check enough of the boxes, for you to say they are 1947-1949 baseball cards. Let's look at the facts: We have people who have first hand Knowledge, these people collected their cards directly from Bond Bread loaves of bread or from Sports Star cards from - 1947-49.

We know what they look like, feel like, what they're printed on and the quality of printing from first hand knowledge. Then we have two letters to tell us about them, “24 card set originally printed in 1947-49 - offered for sale in 1970s and 1980s. Note, the letter says that they are not re-prints but the original 1947 printed cards. These are not just letters trying to get people to buy their cards. But very respected and qualified people and organizations to make such claims. Much different then the letter that went out from the 1980s Festberg - discovered, and the fact that we can tell the Festberg cards from the originally printing 1947 cards helps us to believe your cards fall under the 1947-49 printed cards.

Using the above criteria - in all faith, we are able to put certain cards in the 1947-49 print time. But no one can say they have a real Bond Bread, only the ones who collected cards directly out of the Bond Bread loaf of bread. Bond Bread and Sports Star did produce the exact same rounded corner cards, therefore you or I or anybody for that fact can say for sure a rounded corner card is a Bond Bread card, but if they check all the same boxes as the cards you have… we can say they are from 1947-49. But you are right, a serious amount of forensic work needs to be done on these cards to actually place them in the 40's era 100%. Given what we know I believe we can place the right cards with a 80 to 90% accuracy in the 1947-49 window of time. I also believe we can place the re-prints, and fakes with the same 80 to 90% accuracy - that they do not fit in the 1947-49 window of time. John

Yoda: That question is one for the experts who know about what is considered rare. Right out of the box I would say no.Understand the only people who have collected the original - Bond Bread cards, are those who collected those cards out of the loaves of bread. They are the only ones or have the “original Bond Bread cards”. I would say if you have proof, one could say on that point they are very rare. John

I agree wholeheartedly with Scott, he is right on. Bond Bread did not print their own cards. It was only after seeing the Sports Star cards, they contacted the Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards to print the same cards for them to put in their loaves of bread. Aarco, who originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. And as Scott said, the 1980s Festberg find are: “The cards from the "find" are on old paper stock, not paper stock from the 1980's. They are left over stock from the 1940's or early 1950's. I don't know why collectors would shy away from them, they are legit 1940's-1950's cards.”

I am not saying the 80s Fesberg are not from the 1947-50s, someone stored these cards printed from 1940-50s and they stayed there until Fesberg found them in 1980 or so. But it's just good to know what we have in our collection, and since we can tell them apart from the others we should designate them as such. I do believe people should collect the 1980 find. But we should be able to say if they are from The Sports Star/Bond Bread sets in our collection. It if fun to know what you have - anyway they are all good to have, just not as good as the-reprints or fakes. Thank You Scott, John.

Does anyone know how the large the stash of cards was that was found...from the late 40's...presumably? Seems to me it was quite large as these cards were readily available for many years at pretty low prices.

I do remember there was a letter that said about how many cards there where, I will look to see if I have it, and yes you can still get these cards at a lower price, that is our hobby for you. Any and all cards that come from the 1940-50, should come at a premium, no matter when they were made available for sale. But that is good for us in one way, but for those who collect for profit - must be going out of their mind, these cards are the first cards printed after World War II, they should be bringing premium and very high premiums, but I for one I'm glad they are not. I do not have big pockets. But I think that should sell for more. John

part of the problem is many sellers sell these as "bond" bread examples and as a result there is a lot of confusion regarding them. Funny I only seem to see the big names from the set...I wonder where all the lesser named cards are????

It does appear that many of the cards you see for sale are from the 24 set, because the 24 set did print the bigger names, and not many from the 44 card set.
But it is hard to tell what set a card came from, many have the exact same image on them. I will dig up the list, unless someone can post the list for the 44 card set and the 24 card set. And yes that is the point not all cards are Bond Bread that claim to be. They are 1947-49, but cannot be called Bond Bread, again unless you have proof they came from Bond Bread loaves of bread. The hobby does - mislabel many cards. John

1947 Bond Bread Set Checklist - All are baseball players with the exception of the four boxers as noted below.

Rex Barney
Yogi Berra
Ewell Blackwell
Lou Boudreau
Ralph Branca
Harry Brecheen
Primo Carnera
Marcel Cerdan
Dom DiMaggio
Joe DiMaggio
Bobby Doerr
Bruce Edwards
Bob Elliott
Del Ennis
Bob Feller
Carl Furillo
Joe Gordon
Sid Gordon
Joe Hatten
Gil Hodges
Tommy Holmes
Larry Jansen
Sheldon Jones
Eddie Joost
Charlie Keller
Ken Keltner
Buddy Kerr
Ralph Kiner
Jake LaMotta
Johnny Lindell
Whitey Lockman
Joe Louis
Willard Marshall
Johnny Mize
Stan Musial
Andy Pafko
Johnny Pesky
Pee Wee Reese
Phil Rizzuto
Aaron Robinson
Jackie Robinson
Johnny Sain
Enos Slaughter
Vern Stephens
George Tebbetts
Bobby Thomson
Johnny Vander Meer
Ted Williams

Looking for the list of 24.

John, the reason I posed the question is I hold 2 1947 Bond Bread insert cards with Stan the Man having a printed Bond Bread reverse while the Scooter has a blank back. Was just curious if the blank backs are rarer. Thanks. John

No the blank backs are not rarer, in my opinion. The 1947-49 cards we call "Bond Bread" had blank backs. And may 1947-49 cards had printing on the backs, I will look up the distinction later and explain the difference between the two, I'll have to check my notes, I cannot answer off the top of my head. I can say the one with printing on the backs, has never been given the title of Bond Bread. They are both great cards to have. John.

I gave this thread the name - “Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.” For a good reason, to point out everything labeled as Bond Bread should not be given that distinction for reasons specified in this thread. And in the original thread by Ted Zanidakis - I believe too many people look down on the other cards. The title of the Ted Z thread (the Bond Bread controversy (1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards?) I hope I have that right. Leaves us with a lot to think about.

I believe a lot of good information came out of the thread, but in my opinion too many people think all other cards from 1947 are “importers” that are labeled as Bond Bread, they go as far as to say they are not from 1947-49, but some unknown time of print. And try to say all squared cards are reprints, we now know this is not the case. Yes, all cards we call Bond Bread should not be given that distinction. But just because they are squared does not mean they where not printed in 1947-49.

In this very thread I have given the misconception about the 1980 Festberg find. They are not reprints, just leftover cards printed from 1947-49. I have said the quality was not as good, I do want to take that back after looking at cards for sale that I believe are from that find, I was wrong, the printed cards are as good as the originals.

But we can still tell the Festberg cards from the others; The details are in the back of the cards. We can tell they are from the 1980 by the back of the cards. It tells us what kind of paper stock was used, and this is how we can tell them apart from other cards that were printed in 1947-49.

I want to say this does not mean they are inferior cards in any way. But should be considered or labeled as 1947-49 Festberg find: Yes these cards were sold in the 1980-90 and until till today, but they are not reprint or fakes or cards from some unknown year, just because they were not sold in 1947-49.

The reason I said the Festberg cards printing was not as good as the original 1947 cards, I was going by what others have said. But now that I have seen what I believe to be from the original Festberg cards - I will say you can only tell them by the stock - paper they were printed on, by looking at the back. Think about these cards as cars, they are all 1947-49 cars, but just different models. The cards may be on different stock, ie, models-but are still 1947-49 cards, different stock does not mean they where printed in different years.

I know there are people who bought 1947-49 baseball cards called Bond Bread from David Festberg (1980 Festberg cards). It would be great to have some of those cards posted here. John

WRT "the Fessburg cards": You seem to be saying that somebody printed up a bunch of cards in 1947-9 on eccentric card stock, which then disappeared leaving no survivors until a large number were found in 1980. I'm wondering why you are convinced they were printed then and not any other time between then and when they were "discovered" in 1980?

I only have one card that's relevant:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...33c4f64e1d.jpg

Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk

Only because we have first hand knowledge, people who collected these cards in 1947-49. Therefore we know what to look for. To print them in any other years, they would have to have copied them from the original cards, when this is done we can tell. As I have said, you would need the original photos or negatives to print from. There is 99% chance the people who would have printed the exact cards would have the originals, therefore, you would have a copy of a copy, which will leave a patter in the printed card.

I was in printing for 40 years, I can tell when it is a copy from something that has already been printed. Look at the examples, you can tell the one that was copied from one that was printed before, and the one that was printed right from the original photo. The top card is the fake.

As for the card stock it would not match any of the samples we have from 1947-49 paper stock. You can use a black light to tell new paper stock from paper stock that was made in 1947-49. John

Hi-

I saw David with a bunch (100+ I think) of the sets at Papermania in Hartford CT several years ago. I cannot remember the exact year but it was around 2019 or more recently. I wonder how many sets there were in his find.

Alan

You know…Dave Fessburg, could clear this all up, and he is probably the only one who knows how many cards there where. I don't know even if he is still around. But it would be cool to have him respond, or just to talk to him and get his respective on things. John

In the words of Yamamoto: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

This is totally 'tongue-in-cheek' and more of a reference to the first thread on this subject.

There is humor to be found in this, one just has to find it.

Cheers,

Butch

I did get it, very good. We could use more humor. This is fun, and it should be. Collecting should not be such a drag. That is what I like about this forum, we all give a little and get a little from each and every conversation. Thanks John

butchie t, Since you have all 24 cards, could you post the names here, I did the 44, but cannot find the list for the 24. And do you know if they are the exact same image, or are some different. As I said, I am trying to match baseball card images with the photos I have. John.

John, I'll point you to the old thread. They are the exact same images.

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...&postcount=417

You can see front and back scans of all my cards.

Butch....

Thank you Butch, does anyone know if the 24 car set is printed on different paper stock, then the 44 card set. That would be the only way to tell the two sets apart, since there are the same images on both sets. If anyone has different looking paper stock on the 44 card set , can you post. I am going through the ones I have. Everyone should look at butchie_t post: notice the thread says the Fessburg find. I believe the jury is still out on that one. Thanks John

I missed the boat on this one, yes there are cards printed on different stock then the butchie_t cards. Sorry, “Sport Star Subjects” in 1949 printed a 44 card set, which are square cornered versions exactly the same as the Bond Bread round corner cards on the same paper stock. That's because they were both printed by Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards. I have some I will post later. Thanks John

Yoda, 1947 baseball cards with blank backs are classified in the standard catalog of Vintage baseball cards as W571/D305, the 1947 card with ads which are of Jackie Robinson - are classified as 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson.Therefore, I was wrong in saying they were never classified as Bond Bread cards. I am no expert on what is considered rare, but the Jackie Robinson to me would be considered rarer then the W571 cards, but you would have to know how many are around, how many where printer and the like, to make a true statement on which one are more rarer, just enjoy them both and treat them as rare cards. You have a great find, even if the Hobby does not agree with me, these cards deserve more respect than they get in collecting. But that is just my opinion. Thanks John

GeoPoto GeoPoto - I like to offer up a better reason why I am convinced about the 1980 Festburg cards, and other 1947-49 cards discussed here. One because of new or a better understanding of the facts we have surrounding those cards. I discovered much confusion, misidentification and perhaps some people just not telling the truth. We see false ads all the time. To be clear, much of the information in this piece is based on supposition by myself and other collectors. But as new evidence or information comes forth …we can say we are on the right track, I would say with an 80% to 95% accuracy on what we put forth as truth. I believe the one card you have is one of the original Bond Bread cards, but to see the back would help. Great Card. John

Yoda: I spent a little time researching my notes, and the 13 cards that make up the 1947 Jackie Robinson Bond Bread set, (printing on the backs) are considered a rarity more so then the Bond Bread cards that came in the loaves of bread, the ones with no printing on the backs. The 13 card set - are done entirely in black and white. The images have rounded corners with a white outside border and squared cut cards.

One card in the set has a portrait of Robinson on the front along with a facsimile signature. The back of this one card is the only one to feature a biographical write-up. The others cards have one of two back- with direct ads, that cover the rest of the set.

The facsimile signature the card portrait of Robinson, was likely distributed outside of the rest of the set. Most likely not inserted in loaves of bread. It has long been believed that it was a promo card of sorts available at grocery stores, among other distribution ways. There is this ad from 1947 in the Baltimore Afro new paper that seems to back this theory up: The ad tells people to run to the grocery store to get one for free. It looks like there is no mention of having to buy a loaf of bread. And then there is an ad, not sure where the ad ran, that looks like the front of the card- that says Free Offer, your grocer will give you a pocket-size photo of Jackie, get yours today.

The people who collect Robinson cards could tell you more. Will try and dig up the ad and post them and some other copies I have on these cards. If not I bet someone out there can. PS-I am going over my notes to see if I have anything on the cards you have, can you post pictures of front and backs. Someone more acquainted with your cards could tell you more.

John

John, I have no doubt in my mind that they are the same cards Butchie T has... I just need to find them, however, I had picked up 3 more this past year which have a darker back, more of a beige than cream, but no where near as dark as the original pic in the thread. Musial and Williams from one vendor, and a Kiner from another. I'm trying to post pics of the front and backs of these, but my upload keeps failing. They pass the smell test (although not as strong as most older cards) and they are very thin, like I remember my set. Strange thing is, the Kiner is just a touch shorter than the other 2 (trimmed? maybe). I'll try to upload some pictures of these again tomorrow.

Thank you, Matt74-Quality control was really not that good in the 1940s, cards do not all come out the same size every time. It's not that unusual to see different size cards. Paper stock could have changed during a run of cards, I think that is why we have so many different cards printed on different card stock. In 1947, paper was considered extremely scarce due to the aftermath of World War II, where massive amounts of paper were used for military purposes, leading to significant shortages even after the war ended; this scarcity prompted widespread recycling, with many countries implementing paper rationing systems. Paper was scarce in 1947: During Wartime our military consumed vast quantities of paper, significantly depleting supplies .Limited paper availability affected everything from newspapers and magazines to packaging materials, making everyday items harder to acquire.Therefore sometimes during a run of cards- they would have to change the paper. But they all came from the same run of cards. Therefore a batch of cards would have different card stock in the same run of cards. Many people miss this, and say the cards are fake, or re-runs printed at some other time. . John

What we have to do is stop believing that cards from the 1940-50s printed on some other kind of paper stock, say like the cards Ted Z collected right out of loaves of Bond Bread are fake or re-prints from some other time, ie, after the 50s; just because they are on another kind of paper.

I believe this was done by people who wanted their cards - on what they thought was the right kind of paper would bring a premium price, or be able to say they have the only true originals, or what they have is rarer than anything else. Or they just believed in what they believed in, and that is why people want to believe that a baseball card on different stock is not from 1947-50s. But as new facts have come to light it has changed our way of thinking.

We can tell old paper stock from modern paper stock. In many different ways, one by a black light. Also by comparing the paper stock to a known 1947 printed card. Yes there were deep fakes printed after 1947-50s on different paper stock, but we can tell them apart by the quality of printing.

Understand, to print the exact image on a card from 1947 you had to have the original photograph, and the odds of a much later print having that original photograph is near 0%. Therefore they would have to copy the original printed card. We can tell when this is done, see the example above. Please understand that cards printing from the 1940-1950s can be printing on many different paper stocks. As I have said it is a (fact) theory, or I should say it is believed that a print run being printed - sometimes hard to change paper stock during a run right in the middle of the run: because they would run out of the supply that had. Therefore they would have to find a replacement stock, because of the shortage of paper in the 1940-50s they would use what they had on hand. You would have one card on the exact same card printed on different paper stock of the exact same image for the same run. John.

Pat R-

Patrick, I did check out thread 53 from Ted Z, and I would say the cards you have or friend have are not from the "Festberg" find. But from 1947 Sports Star- printed by the Chicago publisher, Aarco Playing Cards, that originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12. John

Hi John, I'm not questioning you because I know very little about the Bond Bread, "Sports-Star or Festberg cards but the group my friend has have cream colored backs like the ones Ted claimed are Festberg cards.

Thanks, John, very helpful. Appreciate it.

Pat R
Patrick- no please question me, that's how we are going to get to the bottom of this Bond Bread controversy. We need to ask questions, thank you for doing so. I will go back and look over my notes as well as - Ted Z thread, to see if I missed anything, and report back to you what I believe to be true; based on the facts we have so far. I do know of one problem: many people bought what we classify as “Bond Bread” cards printed in 1947 from ads in the 1980- 1990. Then many heard about the "Festberg" find, and just assumed that's the cards they have. As a result people started believing their cards are from some other time than 1947-1949. Keep in mind most experts believe the Festberg cards were printed in 1947-1949, and then discovered in a warehouse in the '80s… by David Festberg. John

Before my report or findings on this Bond Bread controversy all due respect and appreciation goes out to Ted Z: For starting this Bond Bread thread back in 2009, may he rest in peace. Leon in thread #4 of this thread was kind enough to post the link to the original thread. My appreciation goes out to all past and present who have participated and added their contribution, thanks to all. John

My report back will be a long one as I gather the information we have on this Bond Bread controversy. I will be posting updates at different times so stay tuned. The controversy is about what a Bond Bread card is, and what did they look like. We have rounded corner cards, squared corner cards, a 1980s Festberg find, in a warehouse in NJ. On top of that we printed cards on different card stock-paper and then there are the out right fakes - counterfeit cards.

Let's start at the beginning. Quoting: Ted Z- “It was the Summer of '47....my sister and I carefully opened up Homogenized Bond Bread packages, for a Joe DiMaggio, a Ted Williams, a Stan Musial, or the new rookie sensation....a Jackie Robinson BB card. Our Mom couldn't buy enough of the Bond Bread loafs. So, we had our Dad buying Bond Bread for his restaurant and our Aunt buying Bond Bread. These B/W cards were really popular with the kids in our neighborhood. By trading & sharing our collections with each other, we eventually realized that there were no more than 44 BB players and 4 Boxers in a complete set.”

Ted Z- made a valid point - the only cards that should get the designation of Bond Bread cards are the ones inserted into loaves of Bond Bread bread. Ted Z- “The only true 1947 Bond Bread cards are these 48 in this general set and the Jackie Robinson set. All of which have beveled (or ROUNDED) corners in order to fit into the bread loaf packages. Unfortunately, other issues that resemble the Bond Bread cards that were issued after 1947 and were never packaged in Bond Bread loafs have been mis-identified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards. Grading Co. have been most guilty of erroneously labeling these SQUARE "impostors".

One other problem I see is that the Standard catalog of vantage baseball cards 4 edition, (I do not know about the others editions), classify both the round corned cards and the square corned cards as Bond Bread and give it the classification as W571 or I should say have assign them to W571.

Ted Z had first hand knowledge on what should be considered and given the destination as Bond Bread cards. He collected his cards directly from Bond Bread packages. Which I believe he said they we're never square corner cards or beveled cut, not quite round. See the threads below.

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...05%2D14%2D2020

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...06%2D28%2D2020

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...06%2D30%2D2020

There is this misconception… that the rounded corner “Bond Bread” card was printed before all others. This is not true. We know that the Chicago publisher, Arrco Playing Card company had printed baseball cards and had originally sold the cards in 1947 in boxed sets of 12 under the name Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. For boxes of Sport Star baseball cards, notice the round or beveled edges. See thread # 76.

https://net54baseball.com/showpost.p...06%2D10%2D2016

One reason why there is a difference in a rounder and beveled cut corners cards: Is because in the beginning of the production of the baseball cards by Arrco - the Sports Star cards where most likely die cut which gave them more of a beveled edge. By the time they started production on the Bond Bread cards, Arrco probably started using a round cornering machine, which gave the cards a more rounded edge.

Two interesting facts: The ARRCO Playing Card Company was started in 1927 (or 1930) in Chicago. ARRCO started as Arrow Playing Card Company by Theodore Regensteiner, who also invented the four-color lithograph press.

The round cornering machine, also known as a corner rounder or corner cutter, was invented to add rounded edges to documents, business cards, covers, and other printed materials. I do not know who invented the round cornering machine. But it was more pleasing to the eye than say a die cut card. We can see the difference in the cards.

Stay tuned, more to come. John

John,

I admire your quest to get to the bottom of this set. I certainly champion your effort as it will be a slog.

Any way I can help, and I am sure it won't be much more than I have already provided, I happy to lend a hand.

Cheers

Butch

Let's fantasize (wink) for a minute. What would a loaf of BB (JRob) with the card still inside sell for?

JRob baseball cards are baseball cards featuring Jackie Robinson, the one and only legendary player for the Brooklyn Dodgers: I believe they would be priceless, priceless in a way no price could be put on them. Just think if they were unopened; there are some things we just not put a price on. Only thing is I do not know if the cards where issued in a 12 box set. John.

Thank you Butch; I will be calling on calling on you soon, I do need to compile the evidence you have put forth so far. I do have some questions for you, as you said it is going to be a long haul. John

Report number 2
 

Report number 2. I believe that baseball cards that are fake or forgeries / counterfeits and the 1980s Festberg are good cards to collect. As I said before, they are a part of baseball history. In my opinion they should not be considered less valuable, or less collectible. Wait maybe less valuable, because they are not the originals, originals usually are worth more. But...think about it… they are probably rarer than the cards everybody wants to collect. Probably far less of those out there than any other cards. But we do need to know what we have in our baseball collection, and accurately place them in the category they belong in like the Bond Bread cards.

PS, I am walking back my thoughts on how we can tell the Festberg find by the backs. I understand now that my conclusions came from two less of a population, meaning I did not have enough samples to go by. Nothing has changed my mind. I just want to have more samples to look at and go by. My original opinion came from talking to people over time, and samples that people have said where the real Festberg find. My goal is to have a bigger population of cards to go by. I have eliminated some cards they have been called “Festberg”, because we have enough proof they can not be from the Festberg find. Next up I want to go over how the cards were printed. This could explain what looks to me some misunderstanding in the Ted Z thread. John

I do not mean to call this card a fake / forgery, I was trying to show a poor quality of a printed card. I need to slow down and get everything right. Sorry for any misunderstanding. You can tell it is not a fake by the dot pattern, which I will go over in How baseball cards were printed, in report number 3. Thanks John

This is the copy of the card with set off on it. It is not a copy of a forgery. John

Fake / Forgery
 

This is the image I was supposed to use to show a forgery, John

Report number 3
 

Report number 3
How baseball cards are printed;
The technology used to mechanically print realistic pictures on baseball cards did not exist for the most part until around the mid 1800s. Before the mid 1800s most pictures printed resembled hand drawn sketches, not photos. The invention of the Lithograph half-tone printing process changed all that. This new process allowed for magazines, newspapers and trading cards to have photorealistic images. Like the Bond Bread cards. Baseball cards were printed using a halftone technique that creates a gradient effect of ink by varying the size or spacing of dots: to trick the eye into seeing different shades.

The screen printing (half-tones) process was a complicated process. This new halftone process used a special screen to translate a photographic image into a pattern of fine dots on the printing plate. This fine dot pattern allowed for details that could not be achieved before. For a black and white picture, the dots are only black. For a color picture, the dots will be various colors, using - the four color printing process, cyan, magenta yellow and black.

The dots are only seen in the photo in black white printing, the text is solid ink, unless it had a shade of gray. Before half-tone printing, baseball cards were made using antiquated methods. 1800s cards have actual photographs pasted to cardboard backing. Cards like the Old Judges, Gypsy Queens, and others. Trading cards before the 1800s were handmade lithographs. By handmade I mean the designs were made directly onto the printing plate, a person would use special hand tools to put an image directly onto a printing plate. When you look at these cards they look a little like a color sketch or painting.

While the photograph itself has been around since 1839, it took decades before printers could print realistic reproductions of photographs. A black and white halftone image consists of a single screen. However, in four color process printing, four different screens are used. I will not get into all that, maybe some other time.

The reason it is important to know about half-tone printing, we can tell if it is an original card, or one copied from an already printed card.
This is done by looking at the dot pattern on the printed cards. When you copy a printed card the dots make a special pattern called a “moire” which will distort the accurate rendering of images. Below are two overlaid halftone grids showing a moire. In the above thread # 77 I gave a sample of a baseball card with a moire pattern on it , (Ted Williams) picture.

Now about the printing process and what - does it have to do with what I said about- “This could explain what looks to me some misunderstanding in the Ted Z thread.” There are samples of the back of cards given, that have what looks like dirt or specks on the back of cards, these cards are given as proof that these cards were inserted into loaves of Bond Bread, and because of how the backs look, saying it because of the bread why the cards look like they do. it also goes over the different stock, I will save that for later. No; this is just part of the printing process. It’s what in the trade is called set-off, or pick off. This happens for different reasons, the two main reasons are: the result of too much ink printed on the card, and the printing stack of printed cards were handled too soon, before the cards were totally dry.

The Aaron Robinson cards shown above, thread# 76, I gave an example of an extreme case of set-off. You can see the pick off on the front of the card.

The pictures below show a mild case of set-off; they are also the pictures used to show what the back of the cards look like that were supposedly inserted into Bond Bread. The bottom show two screens over each other that form a “moire”.

This is so cool, I believe it backs up what I posted in my report # 3. I wish I had discovered it before I posted my report in #3: How baseball cards are printed. Post 298 in Ted Z thread. I have much to say about this thread, but it is why I believe we have so much confusion, it is full of "FAKE NEWS" as Ted said. Sadly some of the fake news comes right from Ted, making his point that he is right and the others are wrong. It's going to take some time but I will explain. Do not get me wrong, all respect goes out to Ted Z, but I believe he got some things wrong. John

https://net54baseball.com/showthread...07%2D21%2D2020

As evidence comes in:
 

As evidence comes in: My original opinion is Bond Bread baseball cards should have their own category. Because we could tell them apart from other cards printed in 1947. But the truth I am not sure we can tell what is an original Bond Bread card, or a Sport Star card might be right now. More investigation is needed, looking at the backs is not the answer, paper stock is not the answer, quality of printing is not the answer. I believe the best is to look at the die cut cards and the round corner cards. But this is still up in the air. Maybe we should have a joint category Bond Bread and Sport Star cards. Wait is that what the standard catalog of vintage baseball cards does- with the designation of W571 cards? I will keep on Investigating, asking all who have an opinion or evidence to chime in. As I have said we need a bigger population to work from. John