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Buying a Raw 1959 Topps Mickey Mantle, SGC "NO", & Dealer Responsibility
I bought a raw 1959 Topps Mickey Mantle at a local show recently and SGC has graded it a "NO". I don't have the card back in hand yet. Possible meaning of this: Counterfeit, Trimmed? If I remember correctly SGC would use COUNT for a counterfeit card, and "AUTH" for a card that is trimmed recolored, etc., so what exactly is a "NO"? I spent $700-ish on the card and was hoping it would grade a 5 or maybe slightly better for my PC.
Do you think the dealer has a responsibility to refund me or is this simply the admission price for buying raw? I have no reason to think it was an intentional thing and I've been on both ends of the buyer/seller table. So, I'm genuinely torn on what is fair/ethical. Unfortunately, I have no desire to own a card that didn't pass authentication, so a partial refund is out of the question. What do you think? Thanks in advance for your opinion, -Pat |
Can you post before pictures of the Mantle? I think it would help with the discussion.
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I looked it up, and "NO" means Do Not Grade. Therefore, this does not mean that the card is counterfeit, but it means that the SGC does not grade this card. Of course, SGC does grade 1959 Topps cards. Therefore, what this probably means is that the card is Altered or just Authentic. When you do a submission to SGC, you can check the box to encapsulate the card even if it were Altered or even if the grade would only be returned as Authentic and not a number grade. If you did not check the boxes, the card could still be returned back to you with the "NO" reason.
Therefore, my guess is that your card is authentic but trimmed or altered in some way. (another possibility is it didn't meet minimum size requirements) Since you bought it raw from the dealer, it's unlikely he would accept any kind of return or refund since the card is authentic, and you were able to inspect the card personally yourself before you bought it. You can still give it a shot if it's a well known dealer. Sorry about your situation. |
Holding dealers responsible when raw cards don't grade the way you want them to is a slippery slope IMO. If you wanted an SGC 5 you should've bought an SGC 5.
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...and eBay is turning into Amazon. I was forced to refund a buyer for a vintage item of sports memorabilia. Their reason of "I don't want this anymore" was apparently acceptable to eBay. Pardon? That's preposterous. I immediately did two things: blocked the buyer and implemented a restocking fee for returns based on ridiculous reasons.
Yes, I accept returns, but this is the first truly frivolous reason I've ever been given in nearly 30 years that I was expected to comply with. If this is what it's coming to, then my somewhat high restocking fee is the only recourse. It's spelled out in each listing, so it's on the buyer to actually read the descriptions. I can't believe that eBay filters out 95% of the content of descriptions on their app so that a buyer has to tap again in order to see it in its entirety. This is just wrong for all involved parties. |
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You can set up at a card show, knowingly sell trimmed cards and face absolutely no recourse. I understand your point of view and actually mostly agree - it's on the buyer - but this point of view most certainly promotes bad behavior - and has for decades. But this is what you get in a business that requires no education, has no licensing, no regulation, and no governing body. Try asking a dealer at a card show for a receipt when you buy a card at a show. The response is hilarious! I suppose you could sue the dealer, but you'd have to be able to prove that the card you sent in was the same card he sold you. |
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If you did not select "Encapsulate if Altered," and it is, this is what it gets. I agree with what these guys are saying, if it did not hit a minimum grade, its on you; but its sounding like it was Altered, given the "NO" so the seller 100% should have full responsibility.
Grade chasing is one thing, but selling an altered card as non-altered is another. If this is the case, any respectable dealer should offer a refund or an exchange, and if applicable, should be put on blast for selling altered cards |
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I will try to post a picture later, I do concede (in my mind) that this situation is not a slam dunk as to what the right resolution is.... I've also considered grading with PSA and waiting for their opinion before approaching the dealer. Another small detail is that the dealer did say they thought it was a "6" and I told them I thought more like a 5 or 5.5.... In other words, this dealer did not offer any statement like "I can't guarantee anything, I don't know how it would grade, no refunds, etc." The reason I made this post is that there are two very stark and different opinions (Adam/Exhibit Man & Smanzari/ Stefan) and wanted to hear all sides before making a decision as to how I should proceed..... |
Did you measure the card (or compare it to a known full-sized '59 Topps example) before purchasing?
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I don’t like the top border - Too much discoloration and fatness for perfect 90° corners
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In looking at the card, even if unaltered, there is no way it would merit a "5" under PSA and SGC's absurdly tough new standards. 6-8 years ago... perhaps. But not today. With those corners, you'd be lucky to get a "4".
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Top border looks like its sloping down to the right on the top, with no offset at the bottom border to correct it (make it be physically possible) cut is square based on left and right side. Most definitely trimmed. Sorry.
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But if you compare the height of the top white border on the top left side to the height of the top border on the top right side, it seems like the one on the top left side is slightly bigger. The difference is so minor as to be almost imperceptible. |
Back Scan Please
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Is that slanty top border really all that minor? It stuck out like a sore thumb to me before anyone shared similar thoughts. Because photos and scans can be deceptive, I just kept quiet, but glad to see that I'm not alone in this.
But yes, a back scan would be interesting to see. |
Just for additional information, a customer purchased a Bowman card from me and submitted it to SGC.
It came back as NO. We were able to get a reason from SGC as he thought it meant reprint. The reason it came back from SGC is that there was moisture detected with the card and encapsulating it would damage the card over time. So maybe that is another reason it was returned. Bob |
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The top of that card was most definitely trimmed. No question about it.
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This is obviously not fully scientific, but I took the scan of the card in question and overlaid it on a scan of a 1959 Mantle that became a PSA 5, and matched the sizing of the two separate cards (based on the picture, logo and text) to ensure it was an apples to apples comparison.
Here's a 55% opacity image of the 'Purple' card on top of my 'White' card, where I lined up the left and bottom borders to gauge the full size of the 'Purple' card: Attachment 633763 The hazy, dark purplish area that juts out at right is more or less an optical illusion. That is actually part of the 'White' card, which would indicate the 'Purple' card (bright white border) is decently short side to side. Again, not scientific, but hopefully a bit enlightening. |
Clearly trimmed, top left, not a particularly deft job of it.
The seller at a show is presenting cards as-is, where-is. It is up to the buyer to inspect and accept the card before walking away with it. It is especially on the buyer to pick up a patent defect, like a trimmed corner or a crease. That has long been the industry standard. I do not know of any dealer at a show who accepts post-show returns or who warrants that a card will pass a TPG service (except in very limited specific instances that the parties agree on before the sale closes). |
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Selling raw is not a license to commit fraud and omit important, relevant information. At the same time, a seller is not any more responsible for something they didn't notice either. It is why raw cards are cheaper, because they have not been placed into the holy slab that is surely correct.
Especially in person, if one examines a card, is happy with it and buys it, and then wants a refund because it didn't get the slab one wanted, that's utterly ridiculous. If one chooses to gamble, they don't get to undo the loss if they don't win. At some point one is responsible for their choices. If a seller is upset one wants to inspect a card, compare or measure it, run for the hills - they are probably committing fraud. I have never once had a potential seller object to me examining a card, because that would make it transparent there is something wrong. $700 is about the exact value of an SGC 5 1959 Topps Mantle (one sold just yesterday for $700 exactly). If one wants slabs, paying the slab price for a raw copy that may or may not get the grade (even if unaltered they may wrongly flag it, or give it a different grade rightly or wrongly) makes no sense. |
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1. Some of these guys are doing shows almost every weekend. How do you expect them to remember your singular transaction of buying this Mantle from them. That card could have came from anywhere. 2. Say I as the dealer did remember the transaction; I have no way of knowing what the buyer did to the card or how it was handled before it was sent to SGC or since it was returned. And 3. Like Adam (Exhibitman) said, if you wanted a graded card you should have bought one. Once you visually inspect and pay for a card at my table you'd own it. I'd personally never sell an altered card unless it was slabbed as such, but I also wouldn't give refunds on raw cards based solely on a third party opinion. |
Back Scans
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Here are the back scans. A few things of note.
The dealers are new and have claimed they don't grade cards. Based on my talking to them they did seem inexperienced and it's possible they just don't send cards for grading that often. Most of their cards were raw and they only had a few big cards, 59s including this one. In hindsight, the price I paid was a reach and I thought it had a shot at a 5.5 hence my risk. To the folks who would laugh/dismiss at even broaching a return, try to put yourself in my shoes. Again, I would not have asked for a return if the card came back less than expected and I'm not even asking for a full return. Also, I paid near comp for a 5 so it wasn't like the scenario was well under comp with a disclaimer that they aren't sure about the authenticity/ etc. of the card.... |
I think you certainly CAN ask for a return, and I see no reason not to. But I do not think you are entitled to a return, and I would not be surprised if your request was denied. You freely and willingly bought the card under no duress and you had every opportunity to inspect, negotiate, and walk away.
Thought, if he won’t let you return it, maybe he will but it back for a percentage of your cost, so it mitigates your “loss”. |
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Many of us old school guys would not spend anything to grade any of our cards to sell. If I have a card that you think might be a 6 (I don't think it's a 6, I think it's a nice looking card that I will sell to you for $x) then after we shake hands and make the exchange, you're on you're own. I fully 100% agree with Adam, you saw it, held it, felt it, smelled it, whatever, you agreed to a price, and if some schmuck who sells opinions tells you "it's a 2" then it's evidently a 2 and I will offer you congrats on your 2, but you want a refund? F you. Doug "middle name is Richard" Goodman |
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Saying that there is NO chance in hell I would ask for a refund or give one if I was the seller. The only exception was if there was an agreement from a regular customer/friend that a certain level of grade was guaranteed. |
I'm so confused by the response here, I understand if OP purchased it expecting a "5" and got a "2," but this feels like they bought an altered card thinking it was unaltered. Makes me a little uneasy as I frequently buy raw cards in the BST Here. FWIW, I am a dealer and without question would offer a return/refund in this situation.
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And how is the seller supposed to know that the card in question wasn't altered after it left his possession, or is even the same card? We guarantee everything we sell to get a number grade (unless stated otherwise in the listing) but to take advantage of the guarantee it has to be submitted by us. Once it leaves our possession (to the buyer) it's bought.
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Wait.
I don’t think you all are considering that “NO” actually means:
“No problem. I think it WILL grade at a 6, but maybe even a 7. Good job!” I’m just saying... |
I’d like to apologize for the previous post.
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This is for the sellers/dealers on the board. If you knew, had a feeling, an inkling that the card was trimmed/modified in some fashion, would you reveal that information and price the card accordingly or just ignore the hunch and caveat emptor?
The argument that a dealer can't/doesn't look at every card borders on complete and utter kaka because before a dealer purchases a collection of cards and money exchanges hands the '59 Mantle is going to have a lookie-look. Based on a scan alone Exhibitman stated "clearly trimmed, top left, not a particularly deft job of it." I agree that if you wanted a 5, you should have purchased a graded card. Best case, would be the dealer issues a credit and you purchase a card of higher value. Preferably, graded..... |
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Here is one for you thought. I believe at one time PSA only graded the 48 Slate Bowman Basketball and the 49 Slate Bowman Baseball as AUthentic Sold one many years to a friend of mine who got it graded and he was annoyed that it came back that way. Years later, I told him (and he told me his others were now all A as well) that as far as know the slate are mostly authentic. That's the flip side of this issue in my opinion |
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This. And it is very important. Buyer had chance to inspect card in person before purchasing. I’m sure many of us have been in this exact situation multiple times and you chalk it up to a learning experience. |
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Now, could the collector have submitted a different '59 Mantle for grading then the card purchased? Yes. I agree that it would be hard for the dealer to ascertain if the card was the same as the one previously sold. So, in this scenario, the collector has a '59 Mantle at home. Attends a show with the premediated intention of finding a '59 Mantle that will grade a 5 and drops $700 on a card in better condition then the card at home. Leaves the show, submits the card at home which is graded NO. At the next show brings the NO card in from home in hopes that the dealer will refund the $700. I am having a hard time boarding that crazy train. There are bad apples in every group, but overall the collectors I have dealt with over the last 40 plus years have all been solid honest people. Mintacular (aka Minty) stated that the card was purchased at a local show. Perhaps, Minty has purchased cards from this dealer on a regular basis. Perhaps the dealer sees Minty as a walking ATM machine and looks forward to seeing Minty at the show. I don't get the feeling that the dealer stated "if that card doesn't grade a 5, I will refund your money". There was nothing implied. So, Minty is likely sol. That said, if the dealer appreciates Minty's business and knows Minty is a good customer, as I stated before perhaps something could be worked out but apparently not from two of the dealers who chimed in here................. |
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If that's the case, then it seems that I had a similar opinion of the card to that of the buyer. Too bad a seller of opinions sold the buyer a different opinion. But that has nothing to do with me. |
My concerns here is that I remember a seller on ebay a few years back where basically he made his business to crack out nice looking Authentic cards and then sell them raw on ebay. I hope that in this case the dealer did not do the same thing and crack out a card that he knew was altered.
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Years, ago I was at a show and asked a major dealer why the price of a PSA 7 card I wanted to purchase was carrying almost an 8 premium. The major dealer stated "if the card was broken out it would now grade a 7.5". I nodded and moved on and have never purchased a card from that dealer. |
Grading has total control of this industry...love it or hate it...it can do three things, make people money, lose people money, and drive them to insanity.
It's something to watch. Eve if you don't grade it effects you in one way or another. It's tentacles have long reach. |
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We back up everything we sell to the hilt, but if you want to take advantage of the guarantee we have to submit the card for you. We're not trying to screw over buyers, we're trying to protect ourselves. |
Interesting conversation
I agree with a number of opinions already offered here:
1) The price and how it was arrived at doesn't matter. When I am buying raw cards, a seller will not be able to get past the first sentence if they are trying to price "as if" it were graded. I am always paying significantly less for a raw card - there are just too many possible risks (even if it weren't altered) - grading company inconsistency at the top of the list. My response if the seller (on either side of the table) begins "well, a 6 sells for...." is I am not paying a graded price for a raw card. If you want to come back with it in a 6 holder, I'm happy to continue the conversation. 2) If I am buying a card valued over $100 raw, you can bet my ruler, my loupe and a common card from the same set are coming out and that card is going to get a thorough look. If a customer pulls out any or all of the above - not only is it a non-issue, I appreciate seeing it, because it tells me they are taking a lot of care to not write a similar story to this one. If I have a card that I know to be altered, I disclose it and price accordingly. 3) The above and some of the commentary in the thread hopefully will leave you forearmed in the future, but what is "right" in your current situation? As Ryan suggested, I think it is very reasonable for you to approach the dealer and explain the unfolding of events, asking (NOT expecting) if they are willing to do anything about the situation. As has been offered in numerous posts, they are under no obligation to do a thing. If they do offer something - you have to decide whether you prefer to keep the Mantle or take what they offer. If they are unwilling to do anything, write it off as an expensive learning experience and consider whether you want to do business with them in the future. 4) I buy and sell a lot of raw and graded cards. I do not check every single raw card I buy and sell. That said, I ABSOLUTELY check every single raw Mantle (and most cards valued at $100+) that I buy! 5) If you are having a difference of opinion in a conversation like "I think it will grade a ......" and you are willing to take the risk - you may ask for a guarantee of a numeric grade VS. a "No/A" grade. No dealer in their right mind is going to guarantee a specific grade, but some may be willing to guarantee a "number" grade without guaranteeing what the number is. (some may only be willing to do so if you allow them to send the card in - along the lines of the guarantee Scott offers). No have to's on either side- all negotiation. Sorry you are in the situation. Best of luck with resolution. |
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I've bought 100 cards from you and hope to buy 100 more. Thank goodness all dealers are not as straightforward and trustworthy as you, I would be broke by now. Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk |
To the OP, do you have the card back in hand yet? If so, have you measured it or compared it to other cards from the 1959 Topps set to determine if it is off size?
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