Psa theft ransom
 

Has anyone else had experience with the eBay vault being transferred to PSA and has their property held for ransom to settle an account from 2019? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ab703a802d.jpg

I purchased the card in question in April of 2024 and erroneously placed it in the vault. Now PSA is claiming they will not release my property until this account has been settled. The chargeback was ruled in my favor 5 years ago and is unrelated to the card I purchased in April. This is paramount to theft of property at this point. They are holding my card ransom for their poor business practices and scammer ways.

David


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Why did you file a chargeback?

Realize you put it in the vault by accident, but this is precisely the type of horsesh*t that keeps me 1000 miles away from anyone’s “vault”. Cards go in my own personal vault.

Yep. This "vault" idea is for the birds. That's what banks are for. If I want access to my items, I want it immediately and I want the material close at hand. Vault. Sheesh.

Even if it was a valid debt/charge, which it sounds like maybe it is not, I doubt they could collect on a debt over 5 years old. Seems to me you likely have several legal legs to stand on. The problem is who wants to go to war (and pay to go to war) with PSA, over $700? Have you called PSA yet? If so, what was their response?

Pretty misleading title with what's happened over the last week.

Bad form IMO

@republicaninmass I don’t know what you’re referring to 100% but I’m speaking on my situation only here. It is horrible about the stolen cards from the Dallas show and I have shared the info and hope they catch those thieves as well.

I have called PSA a few times and spoken with the eBay authenticity guarantee people as well.
The first time I called PSA I was transferred to their collections department. The second time I called I was told eBay could ship my card. The third contact resulted in a phone call from their collections department and an email stating they could unlock my account when the balance was brought current.

5 years ago I sent in a ball for PSA/DNA authentication. I was able to prove using their own emails time stamps that they never had time for an Authenticator to look at the ball. It’s a 1 way street with these people. They mark the high end items with an invisible fluorescent ink which I found out about later. 30 minutes after the tracking stamp delivered I got an email saying my total was incorrect. There was a $15 discrepancy. I assumed at the time that it was a shipping charge miscalculation on my part. 2 days later I get the ball back with a letter saying it couldn’t be authenticated. I was charged the $700+ for them to look for their invisible ink.

This standing alone would not have caused me to do the chargeback.

At the same time, I had another high end ball with a full letter from 2002. I was told by Heritage that the ball was now deemed unable to authenticate because “the letter was to old” I asked if they stand behind their authenticators and their response was that opinion change after such a long time.

This allows me to ask the question whether him owed money because when I bought this ball I assumed it was authentic based on the beer and agreeably authentic full PSA/DNA letter that accompanied the item on eBay. Was I offered compensation for your apparent error from 2002? No I was not. I just now have another collectible I can’t sell because of the opinions of this monopoly.

Either way, they got a chargeback and I proved that the services they claimed to have provided were actually not provided. The $15 was the extra charge for a full letter. Since they knew within the hour of delivery time stamp to this email time stamp that the ball was already marked as bad. They still made me agree to a different charge by email minus the letter then waited 3 days to ship the ball back to make it look like it had been examined. They (PSA) have only cost me money and stress in what is as a whole a very enjoyable hobby for me.

Now they are holding my card random for this chargeback. This is illegal and paramount to theft of property.


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" I'm just gonna go ahead and call this one...

Django ...unhinged....


Mmmmmmkay?"

-Bill Lumberg

Bill,

Don’t know why you’re trolling me but, funny joke.

I’m simply asking if people can help me retrieve my card possibly a PSA employee or manager is a member.

It’s really not that big an issue for me, it has been aggravating and I answered the questions that were posted here.

If you’re not going to be helpful, please stop trolling me sir.

David Thompson


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Psa theft ransom
 

Furthermore, my handle is not related to the movie your joke referenced. It is homage to the greatest guitar player who ever lived, Django Reinhardt.


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Sorry, that would be ROY CLARK

So you just… didn’t pay?

Touche!!


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I paid. I wouldn’t have paid if I had realized what happened but they are not very transparent with their business dealings unfortunately.


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Trolling is the majority of that guy's activity on here. Put on ignore and don't look back!

That is a crazy situation. This is a post that makes me miss a member that has passed. The response Glynn would have posted makes me LOL just thinking about it.

Pot...kettle says Hi

Psa
 

With all of the Bad Dealings that you are having with PSA Why would you ever even consider sending an item to their vault. I can only assume that a lot of people are using this service only to save on taxes. When I purchase a card or item I want it shipped directly to me for my collection . I would never use a service like this and let someone hold my cards. I hope this works out for you in the end but its not so easy fighting with these big corporations.

Regards
John P

[emoji817] agree


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I'm confused. How much is the amount that they claim you owe?

A charge back isn't a legal proceeding as far as I know. Just because the credit card company found in your favor doesn't mean the vendor that got charged back has to agree with them. In their opinion you still owe them and I doubt there's much you can do about it.

There's noting any company could say or do to get me to use one of these "vaults". I personally don't do the bank boxes either but I definitely do that over a vault service.

If I could “heart” this comment I would :)


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It was placed in the eBay vault. PSA purchased the eBay vault right after the purchased the Goldin vault. And, right before they purchased SGC, solidifying this “monopoly”


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Psa theft ransom
 

I agree. But theft of property from an item acquired from eBay is something I can do something about. I will be making a police report stating theft and then I will send a copy of the police report along with an ad litem notice giving them a time frame to mail me back my property. Then I’ll have to press charges if they can’t do the right thing.


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Good luck!

Let us know how it goes.

It is instructive that apparently the eBay vault is now serving as a debt collector for all of the various parties under the same corporate umbrella. Not that we needed another reason to be wary of such vaults, but this certainly doesn't help to recommend it.

A few weeks ago on EBay when checking out a card that would be sent to authentication, I almost got a card vaulted by not paying attention to the checkout process.

It was auto-selected to have it sent to the vault on checkout after authentication.

I noticed it before finalizing the purchase and was kinda pissed that was a default option.

I don't know if it's universal now or one of those stupid "roll out" things they're doing where some accounts do it and others don't. Be careful with the checkout options for now...

It it preposterous for them to assume that more people than not would NOT want to have the cards they paid for in their own possession. Getting very tired of them assuming that they know what's better for collectors than the collectors themselves.

What event happened this week that you think precludes criticizing PSA?

:rolleyes:

I believe this is a regular process with companies who have unpaid balances due. However, if this was resolved years ago, you should be able to get it out.

Side rant, I would never use a vault. I need the card in hand or in the bank. Vaults are only for people looking to buy and flip in my opinion.

-Eric B.

I'm not getting the theft angle. You said you erroneously placed it in the vault. "I purchased the card in question in April of 2024 and erroneously placed it in the vault." That's not theft. Then the vault changed hands as part of a business deal, but nobody stole your card.

Best to avoid everything under the PSA Umbrella, as well as any "Vault". When considering a "PSA Vault" you're asking for double-trouble. There's enough corruption in this hobby already.

Best of luck.... Hoping you get resolution without PSA making it impossibly miserable.

How much money do they believe they are "owed"?

When it comes to $$$$$$$$$ it isn't a hobby.

I have requested numerous times for my card to be shipped to me. They won’t ship me my card. They took my property in a deal they made with someone else and are now refusing to send me my property. This is the definition of theft. To take someone’s property without their consent and refuse to return it.


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Thank you.

I really appreciate all the supportive comments and the very helpful pm I received. This is what makes this the best community in the hobby. I appreciate all of you.

David


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Suppose you have a dispute over a business deal, where you and a former partner each think he is owed $50,000 from the other. There's your side of the story, and his. The ongoing dispute lasts a few years without resolution.

Meanwhile, in an unrelated matter, you take your BMW to your local mechanic for an oil change. And then, surprise, your former partner buys that mechanic shop, and now holds your BMW hostage. Either capitulate on the other, unrelated dispute, or you don't get your car back.

Is that legal, fair, ethical?

Still wondering how much they claim you owe them?

The email image in the first post shows $736. I think that’s the amount from the chargeback that they are looking to recover, as I read it.

Thank you, I thought the OP made reference to a $15 discrepancy, so I was thinking this whole conversation and potential police report (which jurisdiction would you file in?) was regarding $15.

It will be interesting to see if the OP can convince the police to file a report of theft for him or if they tell him it's a business issue he needs to work out with them. Plenty of lawyers on the board but I don't think any have offered their opinion on this.

I'm a little confused from the opening post. The first line of the email states PSA/DNA customer David Thompson. But in the text it shows an order for PCGS. Anyway, David I think that you have to prove that PSA did not do what you paid them to do. Also, PSA did not take your card, you sent it to them-eBay Vault. After it's all said and done, it might just be easier to pay PSA what they say you owe them and not to business with them anymore. Seems like a difficult road ahead but good luck.

Joe K

Psa theft ransom
 

Customer #:
Order #: PSI21318609_WSO408305
Submission #: 408305
Amount: $736.00
Chargeback Date: 8/22/2019

$736 is the correct amount. The $15 discrepancy was what I was able to use to prove that they had not provided the services which they charged my card for.


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Yes very confusing. Tanika is the shilock calling my 65 year old mother from PCGS trying to collect this debt from 5 years ago all of a sudden after I requested my card by email.


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Amen. I also don't think folks realize the risk associated with storing high value items with a for profit, mostly unregulated business. I don't believe PSA will go out of business, but far bigger businesses have and good luck collecting items when SHTF.

A few high profile examples of this in wine storage over the past decade.

Wouldn't a vendor have to accept the chargeback for your money to be refunded? I tried to do a chargeback when an item from an AH was stolen from my home before I could receive it. My bank requested the money back on my behalf but the AH refused to return it because they said the item was "delivered" and my chargeback request was denied.

I only received my money back when I messaged the AH owner and cut out the customer service reps who insisted it was my problem. The AH cut me a refund check in the end.

I guess what I'm asking is: did PSA return your money? If they chose to, it's hard to understand why they're asking for it back when they already had it to begin with and could have said no.

No, you lost your case based on the evidence presented (tracking showed delivered).

He won his case, based on the evidence presented (he wasn't granted the service he requested).

Both cases were arbitrarily decided by the credit card company.

A vendor can voluntarily grant a "refund", but a "chargeback" is usually forced (and also costs the vendor an additional "chargeback fee" if they lose the case).

PSA didnt' return his money. The Credit Card company took it from them and gave it back to him...likely with an additional fee tacked on.

Ah. I guess I should have mentioned I paid with a debit card and not credit card. My bank couldn't enforce anything. They always said they could only request it. But I guess that's because I didn't use credit.

I think in your case it was because the tracking showed "delivered". Because you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, it counts as a win for the auction house in the eyes of the credit card company. From there, it becomes "voluntary" for the Auction House to request a "refund" for you.

Don't think it matters whether it's a Debit or Credit card. My wife has certainly challenged dubious charges on our Debit Card before.

What the OP has here is a great secured transactions course law school test question. Unfortunately.

Let's break this down a little more carefully.

The initial situation that produced the alleged debt dates back some years. When the charge-back, or whatever the OP calls it, was granted, it represents a start date for the loser to take action on that claim and creates an end date (called the "limitations period"). if you snooze through the limitations period, you lose. I won a trial in a commercial case on this issue earlier this year where the plaintiff sat on its rights for 14 years before suing my client. Whether my client owed the money was irrelevant; the case was stale and the debt unenforceable on that basis.

Generally, this sort of underlying dispute would be viewed as a contract case, which typically has a window of action under either state law or the contract (if the state law is waivable). Regardless of who won, once there was a final "screw you, I am not paying" statement made, it triggers the time within which the creditor must take action. Once that window runs out, an enforcement action would be time-barred, unless the parties waive the time limit contractually. Whether a blanket perpetual waiver is valid would have to be tested under the law of the state with jurisdiction over the contract; some states protect consumers from this sort of stuff, some don't. In PSA's case, that is California; in eBay's case it is now Utah, used to be California. So, first resort is to the contract that controlled the transaction. If that contract is silent on enforcement, then state law controls the time frame to enforce. If the creditor missed its window, its claim is dead and cannot be legally enforced.

This has huge ramifications for the vault owner because the vault is considered a "bailment": the bailor (card owner) gives the card to the bailee (the vault service) to hold it for them. Typically, this creates a series of duties, defined either by state law or by agreement, that control how the bailee handles the item. A bailee normally cannot hand over control of an item to a creditor of the bailor without a court order and has potential liability exposure for doing so. One common exception is a contract that allows the bailee to use the item to pay costs owed to it. Most of the time this requires notice and an auction of the items. I have never seen a bailment agreement that allows the bailee to hold the item hostage for payment of a debt, but it could be the case.

The acquisition of the vault by the creditor greatly complicates things. If the bailor operates under a specific contract and/or state law that does not allow a turnover of items without a turnover order, or that mandates a process of seizing and selling the items with proper notices to the bailor, then the bailor is potentially liable for "conversion" of the item it wrongfully withholds. What the OP may have is a case where the bailment agreement and law does not allow what has been done but where the contract between the initial parties does. If the contract between the former creditor and the debtor/owner allows for a turnover, a court might just allow it once the two entities are merged. Or it might not, especially if the underlying debt is expired and unenforceable. Either way, I would not counsel a bailee client in this situation to withhold the item without a very clear legal basis or a court order.

Situations like these are bound to arise as these vaults and contactless transactions grow in popularity. Kinda sucks that you need a lawyer to buy a baseball card, but that's where it has gone.

Adam, thanks for clearing that up. :)

I wish the OP good luck in getting his card back, but it sounds like it might require a lawyer more than a police report which would likely cost more than what is claimed to be owed by PSA.

PSA Vault Terms of Service
 

I've never really seen the value of the vault service so never really looked into it. But decided to read the terms of service based on the thread. here is the link:

https://app.collectors.com/psavaultterms

Read section 7: Cancellation and release of items. I've copied in what may be relevant but there is more to the section. here is what it says:

or you are otherwise in breach of any obligations under this Terms of Service, the Terms of Service for any other Services of a Collectors Entity, or the User Agreement, including, without limitation, failure to satisfy any unpaid obligations of a Collector Entity, we reserve the right to sell or otherwise dispose of the items, in the manner determined by us, in our sole discretion, and retain any proceeds from any such sale or disposition.

Not sure what your options are, but good luck

I see this. Only problem is I’ve never signed an agreement with PSA vault. Only the eBay vault. I’ve not been able to sign into my PSA account to sign any agreement since 2019.


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https://www.ebay.com/vault/terms

Note
3.C.iii

This is the only agreement I have signed.


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April 17th 2024 it looks like is the day I signed the eBay vault agreement

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d506cd157d.jpg


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I’m assuming because you didn’t withdraw your card from eBay’s vault during the time period after it was announced psa was taking over, youd now fall under the terms and conditions of psa.

If you accidentally submitted to psa vault, I’m sure the moment you submit to them to agree to all their terms and conditions as well.

Finally talked to a sympathizer that got me in and I was able to ship my card back to me.

Wonderful news


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