Safeguards at shows
 

In 2024, we have had two big thefts tied to card shows (Strongsville and Dallas). Are promoters putting any additional safeguards in place? Or is it basically up to the dealers/attendees to take care of it themselves?

Not to scare anyone, but I would more vigilant than ever when in possession of high value cards.

These thefts are also taking place away from the shows to both Card and Coin dealers, these dealers are being followed to gas stations/restaurants/motels and their cars being broken into while they go inside and leave material in the car, trunk or trailers. These are not petty thieves, I had a coin dealer friend several years ago that was tracked across 4 states, when he arrived home he parked in his driveway and went in to check on all his animals. Walked out 10-15 minutes later and found his car doors open and trunk popped. The Feds eventually found most of the coins and turned out to be the Russian mob. These people if interrupted during the commission of said crime are not the kind to run away.

One of our own pre-war dealers in California experienced this just a year or so ago upon his packing his vehicle and leaving a southern California show.

I’m sure if the promoters raised the table fees to go towards undercover and uniform units doing security at these shows it would be well worth it.

Most of these shows have heavy security both uniform and plain clothes. The crimes are occurring when off premises or in the case of the Dallas show, after hours, which I presume the security had left.

Enhanced security
 

Two thoughts come to mind when people call for enhanced security as a
way to reduce risk of theft at card shows (theft by deception, not robbery):

1) Cost. I wish I had a dollar for each time I've read a dealer complain
about the high cost of tables at bigger shows on this venue. Extra duty
police cost money, and the amount isn't small. Most police are paid
significantly more for extra-duty work than on-duty work, and the per
hour cost may shock some of you. Is it worth it? Enough to increase
your table cost? You would need to judge. The same may well be true
for added cameras, etc. (I'm not giving an answer, just posing the
question).

2) Vigilance. Each seller must be on his/her toes, especially if the material
is particularly valuable or desirable. Make it a point to take someone
whose sole purpose is to watch your stuff. How would people feel if a
show actually required such a person as part of the entry agreement?
What if adult showgoers were required to show current photo ID to
get in? How badly do you want better security?

Trent King

I spent 12 years in law enforcement (1995-2007). I can tell you that during those years off duty jobs generally paid $20-$25 per hour. You might even catch a really good gig at $30 an hour once in a while. I cannot imagine what the guys are getting now but I’m sure it’s considerably more.

Just hire some college wrestlers and/or retired UFC guys just to sit with the stuff and knock anyone out that tries to touch the cases. :D

Enhanced security
 

Vintagedeputy-

I know for a fact that, at Ohio State home football games in 2023, there was
a shortage of police for security (extra-duty not on-duty). Prospective officers
were offered $100 per hour, and spots went unfilled.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have an increase in uniformed
LE at appropriate shows. I'm merely pointing to the cost, and the proclivity
of sellers on this board to grouse about- you guessed it-costs.

Trent King

Security is a nice feel good measure but unlikely to make drastic change. Let’s be honest, most of these happen when someone is distracted, busy or other. If if have 10s of thousands, 100s or even as described millions in merchandise I want descriptions and identifying info. Six cheap nest cams should cover any table well. Two focused on my table top at each side, two facing the crowd for faces and two in the rear of my booth facing outward. I want 100s of frames of film to post if anything comes up missing.

As for personal protection, other than doing your best for a connecting hotel and traveling with another set of eyes there’s not much more to be done. Other than Cleveland, the national is held in locations in which even providing yourself protection will get you more time than anyone would serve if they robbed you. I am a personal protection person, but no way my CPL is worth trying anywhere but Ohio. I sure as hell am not protecting myself in Chicago without losing my freedom for years even if I am in the right.

We can yell for police all you want, but the best thing is just evidence and not believing they are magically going to be everywhere.

I am very concerned about theft -- and setting up a booth at the National is always a challenge.

I now LOCK all of my showcases -- and I don't allow anyone to remove a card from my binders. I personally remove all cards and wrappers from my binders. Obviously, I lose customers that way but guess what -- I don't lose cards or wrappers that way.

It's very sad that a high percentage of the large thefts are so called friends that you allow to review your items with limited supervsion. Those are the ones you have to watch out for.

I even had a collector who had asked if my wife could watch his daughter so she was distracted while he stole an expensive pack.

I hope the National will do more overnight security this year. If you walk around the show after it is closed, I always find collectors walking around at almost 6:30 when they should have left the room a half hour before.

Any one have other security ideas for booth holders?

Steve_NY

I’m actually not surprised that even at $100 per hour, there was difficulty in finding officers. Officers these days have a wealth of opportunities - no pun intended - for off duty work as well as overtime. They generally look for really easy jobs with low chances of there being problems or having to make a arrest.

Having worked college football games before myself, I can imagine that many officers would try to stay away from those details because they can get rowdy and out of hand.

Be attentive and vigilant is really all that can be done.

Cops or more cops wandering around wouldn't have likely stopped either theft. They aren't forceful seizures followed by an obvious perp running away and needing to be chased by the law. The Strongsville theft in particular is not something any show could have reasonably done anything to prevent (short of the possessor having the basic common sense not to mail millions in cards to a Best Western...).

Being armed also would not stop either incident or any realistic card show theft either, and if a dealer did use a weapon that they would almost certainly go to jail for drawing on a non-violent thief in a public place. Carrying a firearm is for extreme threats, not a guy taking a case at a show in a room full of people in all directions.

Watching your stuff or having someone you trust watch your stuff and being aware of your surroundings is about all one can do when in a public place with expensive things.

That would be a given. If you are responding to my comment, it was directed to Scott’s post above of being followed to motels or home in his worst example.

Having visible security around at the end of the Dallas show may have helped prevent the theft since more eyes watching may have made the thieves less likely to try anything.

I own a small business in the western suburbs of Cleveland…and in our community to hire auxiliary police officers it costs $125 an hour.
So I am sure The National is spending some good money on security.
Andy

My number one proposal for extra security measures would be for all attendees of these major shows to produce an official government photo ID, driver's license/passport, and or VA card. Doing this would be an added cost-effective security measure that would be able to identify everyone who has made entry into the show. I would also utilize a timestamp.

No thanks.

When you say produce an ID, do you also mean that the show would keep a record of everyone who was there? If so, I can imagine that would discourage a lot of people who want to protect their privacy from attending.

Yes, I do. That’s up to them if they wanna attend or not I think it’s a good idea for the big shows. That’s just me. I feel like it’s worth it. Everyone knows your identity on here or if you bid an auction or purchase from someone online, I don’t see what the differences really. Ultimately, it’s up to them. When you get a pass to enter the show, you also have your name on the pass typed out in bold. Doesn’t seem to stop the attendance at that show one bit.

At the Long Beach coin and expo show you have to produce ID. Also, all of the dealers and their employees wear a pictured photograph ID. I think it’s a great idea.

Not sure I like the ID requirement, but having a visible face-level camera at entry points would be a great way to identify any criminals that do show up. Dallas camera angles left a lot to be desired.

Enhanced security
 

The recent group of messages above mine, in regard to producing ID,
illustrates my earlier question about how far people are willing to go truly to
enhance security. One way to have a good idea about who is
attending a show is-wait for it- actually knowing their identities! Yet some
people balk... That's the rub. For some, the thought seems to be that
enhanced security is just wonderful so long as that person doesn't have to
take part. Talk about a sticky wicket! Trent King

Access to that information would be like a Sears Christmas Wishbook for thieves.

How about the best camera money can buy taking a picture of everyone exiting the building during setup & breakdown ? So, in this situation, they would have clear pictures of these thieves.

Enhanced security
 

SteveB- I’m afraid I disagree completely with your remark that showing ID to a show employee, would be like giving a Christmas list to thieves. The show employer/ID person is the least of someone’s worries at a card show. And a name and photo that matches the attendee, isn’t vital or sensitive information. I get it that some people just don’t want others to know who they are- even when they are legitimate in their attendance. I also know that resistance to something so basic is exactly the kind of thing that makes it difficult to provide the “better security” most people want. It won’t come without cost. The question the individual would need to answer within, is if showing a photo ID is actually a “cost”. Trent King

I have to understand Steve's position here. The likely level of security for this documentation would be at an amateur's level. A low level hacker would likely be able to access if in the odd case they were unlikely to buy access to the information from a low paid security or data employee of the event. Thus providing not just names and photos, but home addresses of thousands of collectors that more than likely have collectables on premise. Let's be realistic, without documenting the license information in some way what does it really do at all? Are the weekend employees at the door of the National going to be able to memorize the information of 10s of thousands of visitors? It would need to be on a database for reference or it's complete waste of time...and that is a goldmine for information sales. The promoters would sell that attendee list to every auction house in the hobby the next week and then leave another million security holes.

I am sure I'll get massacred for even bringing it up, but if a huge percentage of the country is voting to state that simply asking for a federal or state photo ID to prove you can legally vote or even are who you say you are is somehow way over the line. What is the slightest chance that you can legally ask and document identification to enter a baseball card show if challenged?

A couple of notes. I can tell you that I (we) spent $55 per hour to have an Plano Police Officer on site during our synagogue show right after the Allen Outlet shooting. And that was a small 20 table show and we absorbed all the costs because of the short notice to dealers/customers. We could afford that cost because since I was not paying rent for the room we had some extra financial room.

After 10/7 we now have security at any our synagogue (including the card show) events. Better to be safe than sorry. But there is a real cost and we're lucky as a show we could absorb those costs. Not every promoter/table holder could absorb the true costs of extra security

I forgot to add we now require everyone to sign in to our show. I have not yet asked for ID's (I do know many of the people who attend) but that's also a safety issue for our show and I suspect many other shows as well. Has to do with liability. Many years ago I was giving a quick tour of the Beckett building to two very trustworthy people and they insisted on signing in to our guest list. Why? If something happened as they were not signed in I would be responsible. If something occured then Beckett would be responsible. it's actually protects the promoter to have sign ins. I wonder if we're ever going to get to that point at shows.

As long as you weren't discriminating and were asking everyone for ID, I'm not sure why it would be illegal. I think the main issue would be many people being unwilling to provide it and therefore not come to the show.

Enhanced security
 

JustinD- first of all, I won’t massacre you:) The reality is that people are voluntarily attending card shows (or not attending). If a person comes to the conclusion that showing a driver’s license is somehow a security risk, then they can opt out of that show. I’ve never organized a card show, so I haven’t given a ton of thought to how show handlers would treat the information. Maybe matching the person’s face with the ID is good enough. Maybe the ticket taker(s) simply write “Trent King Ohio” on a legal pad, then the next attendee’s name and so on. Ohio Driver licenses don’t even list the person’s SS number, so that’s out. I mean, if people don’t like the idea of strangers at a show stealing their stuff, the idea of making people prove their identity seems like a decent step in the right direction. One thing is for sure- hesitation or reluctance to enhance security favors the bad guys. Trent King

If the purpose of showing IDs is to have a list of possible suspects when a theft occurs, then more information would need to be recorded than just a name and a state. There are a lot of John Smiths out there so at least an address would be needed as well to make the list useful in any way. Unfortunately, it probably doesn't take much for someone to get a fake ID to show so if potential criminals have one, the list becomes useless.

It's a start and a very good cost effective start if you ask me. You can't have it all or both ways but you can take small little security measurements with limited costs involved such as this. This is just me but fine with producing a photo Id at shows.

I contend that the National should show the way for other smaller shows. The National should set the bar on security. Is that too much to ask of them?

It's still up to booth holders to maintain their own security during and after the show.

I prefer cash payments but in the likely event that I will get checks or PayPal, at that time I require valid picture ID. Holding an item for a few days until checks clear is definitely a requirement. If the buyer balks at that, then it's time to be suspicious of their intentions.

Any other thoughts on security and how to handle that during and after the show closes for the evening?

What liability is there in asking for IDS?

I know we have some National board members on this forum. Would love to hear their thoughts.

Steve, my opinion, you need to set yourself up for success.

Concur, especially at larger shows.

Look at jewelry stores. While most don’t ask for ID, you better believe you are being watched the whole time.

What liability is there in asking for IDS?

None. I'm just trying to have as little friction as possible for our guests. If I'm asked to verify with ID's (I'll bring that up to our brotherhood board and then the synagogue board) I sure will ask for ID's

If I know the person I can skip the ID part but if I don't or not sure I can do that then.

Rich

I see all this conversation about how requiring photo ID's will deter criminals, and am wondering if I'm the only delinquent here who purchased alcohol before they turned 21...

Producing and showing ID is pointless unless the information is being stored. That’s where the liability would come in to play. Who’s is keeping this info? What are they doing with it? What happens if there is a breach?

The solution that is most reasonable is more visible cameras and more visible security. These deter the majority of criminals.

Then everyone needs to be responsible for security of their own space.

One guy working the booth should never happen unless someone is going to the bathroom or grabbing food to bring back. Need multiple workers always.

Never hand cards to more than one person at a time. Make sure showcases are locked and back stock is secure. This could be as simple as having a case with a handle bike locked to a table leg or a standalone safe. Even simple deterrents such as moving cash box/envelope location often are usually not considered. I could go on and on. Nothing is incredibly difficult its just that most people don’t have the experience of dealing with people essentially trying to shoplift.

The majority of people (including cops and paid security officers) do not have the experience needed to prevent retail theft except by their existing and showing presence…which it’s important so this should always be the top priority of all shows.

Enhanced security
 

Brian- I’m unsure if your remark is tongue in cheek. Assuming it’s not, the notion of photo ID requirement isn’t a cure all. Instead, it’s one more measure to make it harder on potential thieves at shows. It’s also not alone as the only potentially controversial measure that show organizers can implement to at least make these guys consider trying their crimes at another show than their own. Identifying these steps and quantifying their cost (financial and social) is worth the discussion. I don’t care in the least of there is stronger security physical presence, video presence, and preventative measures- I’m just one guy though. Trent King

Enhanced security
 

Todd (notfast)- okay, I’ll bite. What exactly is the liability you have mentioned more than once? Please explain the liability of, say, keeping a list of attendee names and forms of ID ( example “Trent King, Ohio driver’s license”) and then shredding it after a successful show- after no incidents have been reported, that is. I’m reading between the lines that you consider it an imposition, but that’s not the same as a liability. I’m hard pressed to think of an example of anything that is made better/more thorough without incurring some cost or extra steps. The wish to somehow will better security into existence without action is exactly that- a wish. That’s the bone of contention, I suppose. Do people want to complain without action, or actually do things that increase the possibility of safer shows? Trent King

Any time you collect and compile personal information there is a risk of that getting into the wrong hands. Digitally, dumpster diving etc.

There’s a reason every time you enter information somewhere you agree to a whole list of terms and conditions about what happens with that information.

I don;t want to write down information. what I'm thinking in the sign up sheet is to have ID shown/verified

Tickets could be forced to be paid for via electronic payment which would give some sort of tracking. Combine that with entry cameras and a scanner scanning a unique ticket # and maybe you’d have something that could be traceable to a card payment that wouldn’t involve another entity needing personal information.

Edit - but then you run in to situations (like sporting events now a days) where people don’t use cards or are too young for them.

Not trying to be argumentative, but what point or purpose would looking at an id solve with no documentation? I worked my way through college as a bouncer at a couple rough bars. I looked at thousands of ids, often hundreds in a day. We had plenty of fights, even a stabbing once…not a single time ever did myself or another bouncer have a name to offer the police unless it happened to be a regular and you could come up with a first name. Checking ids only accomplished that we knew for 20 seconds they were old enough to be there. You would have needed to be Dustin Hoffman in rain man to recall who that random persons id was.

If someone asks why ids are necessary can security, unless there is a new minimum age to go to the national, really be a defensible argument? I can’t see any real benefit to glancing at an id for 10 seconds other than to just annoy people and have the door people forced into arguing with guests the entire time. Even documenting the ids, without taking a current picture of them as well like the airport it’s still fairly worthless. Having someone steal something and then handing the police a list of thousands of names and ids for some sort of assistance would result in them likely rolling their eyes.

If someone is up to no good, the idea they randomly flashed an id among 10000 other people is not going to slow them down a wink.

In simplest terms, I'm hosting a card show in a synagogue. We not only have the issue of potential theft (thankfully I'm not aware in all these years of anything close to being major taken except from our prize table back in the day.) We also frankly have the issue of Anti-Semitism which can pop up in ways we don't want to think about. We are not a public place and thus can have more stringent rules for people verification.

Trust me, I don't want to do this but it's something which absolutely has to be considered in today's world and it's not something I (nor the brotherhood board and the synagogue board) take lightly.

Rich

Enhanced security
 

JustinD-

It is obvious that some members have noticed these large thefts at shows,
and are "kicking the tires" on ways at least to minimize the chances it
happens at their show or their booth. It's a valid question to ask. To your
comments:

1) The value of requiring valid photo ID is to discourage or prohibit those
who don't have it, and are using anonymity to their advantage to steal.
If this requirement discourages a couple idiots with bad intentions from
trying their nonsense, it's a valid idea for sure.

2) Most shows don't have 10,000 visitors. I attend a large monthly show
that routinely consists of 200 tables spread out over 2 large outbuildings.
If that show received 1000 guests and there was, say, a $100k theft, I
have direct knowledge that law enforcement wouldn't "roll their eyes" at
list of 1000 people. That list would narrow their search from practical
infinity, down to 1000- and they could peruse the list for names that
are familiar or which stand out ("which of these, is not like the others?")

The best way I can explain it in sports terms- since we are on sports card
site- is to use boxing lingo. Taken separately, none of the measures I have
seen are "knockout punches" that utterly prevent theft. They are, however,
"jabs" that annoy and wear down potential bad guys. It would be a shame
to overlook a measure that is free to implement and that could serve a
real purpose to deterring criminal behavior. In case anyone is still wondering
if there is a magical, free, instantaneous way to reduce theft at shows, the
answer is no. The question becomes, do people really wish to reduce theft
or merely wish to complain without action? Trent King

Theft is an unfortunate part of shows, and with the increase in values of cards, it was only a matter of time before thieves started to look for the blind spots in a soft target like a show. Thank goodness there were cameras in Dallas, hopefully it leads to arrests.

I can remember vividly working for a dealer in the 90's, and having people swipe high dollar items. In one instance the older gentleman that I worked for vaulted over the table and chased the guy down in the lobby of the Sheraton because he had grabbed a box of Stadium Club cards.

You have to assume the worst, I still don't understand why dealers leave cards on their table overnight. Zipped up, locked down, whatever, I always take the high value cards with me. In a moment of letting my guard down in Nashville, I was passed $200 in counterfeit $20's, of course they did a good job of putting a real bill on top, but I was only marking $50's and $100's with my pen, never even gave it a second thought until I was doing my final reconciliation. It made me sick, but it is noting compared to Dallas and Strongsville.

I think it is an unfortunate part of the hobby now, and dealers need to be on the guard with product and cash, sharks are in the water and they are circling.

If you’re doing retail sales you have to expect a level of shrinkage. Stuff will vanish. The best you can do is to try to limit the losses to cheap crapola. Load in and out are the most vulnerable points and that is when you need to secure your best stuff with best practices. I’m publishing a screed about this tomorrow on my Substack.

When personal ID's are required to enter a sports card show, I'll have entered my last show. How about instead of making show attendees jump through hoops the show promotors actually step up and hire adequate security, or dealers actually take some responsibility and keep track of their inventory? But this is the American way. Instead of addressing the issues at the root, let's just slap a Band-Aid on a bullet wound and call it a day.

Showing an ID isn't a problem. Hopefully they have enough ticket/door staff to handle it.

When they start saving that data anywhere is when it becomes a security concern. Even a temporary list of attendees with their address is something a house breaker would probably be very interested in.
Include the full drivers license info or full info from all Ids, and it's not only a catalog of who might have cards or other stuff worth stealing, and when they will be out -obviously the next show- but a list that's saleable in many ways, many of them illegal.

And if you don't save the ID info even temporarily? I have no idea what value the fact that you'd looked at IDs would have to someone investigating a crime.
Nothing but meaningless security theater.

Yes, I do slightly worry about the door prize slips you fill out for a mailing list to be sent a notice about the next show, but you can usually opt out of putting your physical address.

Enhanced security
 

LEHR- if you truly believe that showing an ID I “jumping through a hoop”, then you may be part of the problem rather than the solution. The effort- if that’s even the right word- required to open a wallet and display a card is minimal. Jeesh…. Steve B- I didn’t state, nor would I want, ID checkers to copy a license or passport at the door. I’d suggest they make sure the photo on the ID matches the person holding it, and perhaps (I don’t run card shows) write name and ID type on a legal pad/IPad. That’s it, nothing more. Such an effort isn’t “meaningless security theater” IF it’s done diligently. It may well discourage potential thieves from even attempting the crime in the first place. The idea is for a combination of dealer vigilance and more formal security measures to put a dent in theft. The idea is sound, it breaks down only when promoters/dealers/customers insist that security is up to everyone but themselves. I don’t claim to have all the answers; however, pushing the problem or balking at basic concepts simply helps the bad guys. Trent King

This is an important piece to the puzzle and does make me understand your concern, I did not realize the extra piece. I still would rather have a 150 buck Nest cam at the entrance as I think it accomplishes more and is far more intimidating to a criminal as the social media army frankly does quicker investigations than the police in many or most of these cases.

That said, the synagogue changes the dynamic. The amount of open and accepted antisemitism makes me sick now. Do as you wish, but taking those new items into account, I think the camera is more needed now. I know most people ignore or overlook it, but next time you leave the grocery store or bank notice the measurement chart next to the door. This is to provide the height info for any issues. I would add one to the entrance in the cameras view as well...even if it's painters tape marked.

Sorry you have to worry about this and it is far more important than cards.

BTW one of the reasons the DCS has such good cameras
 

Is one of my friends had his "fanny pack full of cash" stolen from behind his table when the person next to him invited a whole bunch of people behind their table.

In this case, there was not a vendor pass or anything else required and it was a pure robbery of cash. Thankfully he could absorb the financial loss but it was a major wake up call for the DCS people.
'
So that theft may actually in retrospect help solve this theft.

Rich

Once again you completely missed the point someone was trying to make.
Why should I have to take any extra steps when the burden of security should rely on the show promotor and the dealer. Hire more/better security. Actually be accountable for your inventory. And I'm not trying to be part of the solution as it's not my problem to solve.
Showing ID is just a Band-Aid for a much bigger problem and I also don't trust that a show promotor wouldn't sell my information if they could make a buck. We know this hobby is just full of upstanding citizens.

Just my $0.02. You don't have to agree with it.

Considering that tickets, at least to the National, are bought via CC and have names attached to them, this point is wildly overblown fear and elaborate.

Additionally people are petrified of handing over an ID to match names on the ticket but will readily do the same to purchase alcohol, pickup tickets from will call at sporting or other events, visit most buildings / workplaces (at least in most businesses and buildings nowadays). Additionally any ticket bought ahead would have billing attached to it. All someone checking ID needs to do is mark the ticket buyer there and that their tickets have been picked up, they don't need to input all ID info again.

Here is a newsflash, the paranoia of people to not want to hand over ID to enter a show is actually funny. People use ID virtually daily to do hundreds of different things. You'll show ti to prove who you are to fly, drive, buy alcohol, cigarettes. You'll tap a phone or CC reader with a chip card in 2.5 seconds without thinking twice. Guess what, ALL that data gets stored and is identifiable in the exact same manner. Also there is far more sensitive data embedded in both those devices.

If someone wants to steal they are going to do their best to do so, using due diligence and not flaunting big dollar items or large blocks of cash unnecessarily is a big key to all of this.

Of course, if your expensive pieces and big dollar items are in a display case for sale you're going to be openly displaying what you have to anyone walking by. Insure yourself accordingly,

Given the lax gun laws in Texas, I wonder how many dealers were packing? I know I would draw down on some guy walking away with my case holding a couple of million bucks worth of some of the most precious cards in the hobby, while yelling for security, if there was any, at the top of my lungs.
Some 15 years on, I am still haunted by a theft at my table at a Ft. Washington show. Can't imagine how Ash feels.

Dealers could be packing but you're not going to be pulling your weapon on someone for just stealing/walking off with your merchandise. I'm all for lawful carry and protecting yourself but in this case a gun would have done nothing.

This was not an $80 or 100 card it was $2million worth. In our booth we have a police officer/dealer and another dealer with conceal carry and armed. Also there are Allen police officers in all parts of the building during show hours. Apparently not any after the show closes.

I'm a little disturbed some people appear to think that drawing a gun or shooting a snatch and grab thief at a card show is somehow realistic or appropriate. It's not in any way a reasonable response to a card thief in a room crowded with innocent people. Come on :rolleyes:

enhanced security
 

LEHR- You went from opinion to fact, and blew it. I have not "missed the
point". The point is that a hobby consisting of involvement from multiple
groups of people (hobbyists/dealers/show promoters), that is confronted by
a potentially serious problem affecting each group, can't simply pass the
problem to one group if they wish to address that problem fully and well.

Your take is, sadly, somewhat typical of a segment of the hobby: there's a
problem, I don't want to be stung by it, but I'm not willing to lift the
smallest finger to address it. The notion that showing a photo ID is
somehow supposed to be taxing and extraordinary is absurd, it makes no
sense. A person's "2 cents" must have some basis in reality, even if slight,
to be taken seriously. It's obvious this is everyone's problem rather than
everybody else's problem but mine. The issue is how best to resolve it.

Trent King

Trent,

You're trying to make someone else's problem everyone's problem.
Example: If someone breaks into my house and steals my safe, is that my neighbors problem? Hell no. I should have had installed a better security system, I should have bolted the safe to the floor as an added deterrent, or I should have let fewer people know about the safe to begin with. I'm not going to run out and start a neighborhood watch and waste everyone else's time over my problem. It's called personal accountability which is also lacking for a lot of people.

And as far as the ID's go, I was making fake ID's at 16 and even given the technological advances, I bet I could make a pretty convincing one now given the time. Do you really think the 17 year old kid or 51 year old mom of four manning the doors at these card shows are going to know the difference in real of fake ID, or even give a rats ass? It's not like show promotors are hiring TSA agents to screen you as you walk in.

But regardless, we will never see eye to eye on this so there's no sense in going back and forth, so this will be my last response. Please come back in a year or two and post on this thread to let us know about how your ID idea saved the hobby from the boogieman.

I think that this might be the best solution. I would pay to watch the results.

enhanced security
 

LEHR- Congrats, you graduated from merely being lazy to being a jerk.
(When someone tells you who they are, believe them.) To your "points":

1) I'm not coming back in a year or two to satisfy your post, that's out.

2) The ID idea isn't mine, plenty of people have suggested it.

3) I have stressed multiple times that dealers and promoters are
accountable too. Your ability to ignore clearly stated remarks is
extraordinary.

4) Bad guys aren't the "boogeyman", your attempt at being snide needs a
lot of work. They are a small percentage of people who decent folks can
foil if we remotely agree to be on the same team.

5) Your amateur hour comments are a wonderful illustration of why it's
harder than it should be, to solve an obvious issue. Keep that head
buried in the sand!

Trent King

+1 Or someone fast that can tackle

Any dealers that mostly have high-end stuff should be put in a different part of the building where there is more security. You will also need to show two pieces of government-issued ID in order to get in and out of the high-end section. This isn't the perfect solution, but it will definitely make a big difference IMO.

Dealers need to take the precautions needed to secure their own investment in their business. Sure security cameras are great but when you only see stuff getting stolen and walking away without the crime being prevented it’s too late. You incurred the loss.

While at the East Coast National last year, a dealer was showing multiple cards to a buyer. Once the buyer left I come by looking through the cases and what do I see sitting on top of one of cases. A 1953 Mantle PSA 6. I couldn’t believe it, I look up at the dealer and he’s two tables down chatting with his buddy. I pick up the card, walk over to him and say hey “ You left this out on your case, I didn’t want someone to walk off with this” His oh shit look on his face said it all. I’m not going to say who’s table it was but let’s just say it was in the basement level… if you are aware and can connect the dots you can likely guess who this was.😬 Sadly this is not the first time this has happened to me at shows.

Please lock your cards back up, pay attention, get off your damn phones, and be vigilant. Your cases should be locked 100% of the time during shows.. At the end of the show each day valuable cards should be going into a safe directly and that safe should be strapped to your wrist until you get to your vehicle. Always have a trusted friend or colleague with you during transport and if you want mace or pepper spray go for it. Protecting your assets are your responsibility and nobody else’s.

I can’t tell if this is serious or sarcasm.

I'm being serious ...

When I attend a show, I will see one dealer with a Ruth, DiMaggio, Cobbs, Mantles, etc. and the guy next to him has garbage, and the one next to him is selling UltraPro stuff, and the one next to him selling baseball commons, and the one next to him mango juice ... who do you think needs the security?

The high-rollers need to be separated from the rest. You show the doorman your ID and it gets logged into their system. That way, they know exactly who is inside.

And the buyers who deal with the big boys need protection too. Imagine you wanna' get your hands on a PSA 7 Aaron RC. You bring with you some high-end cards (trade bait) and some cash. You wanna' go where you can feel safe, right? More security ... more cameras ... and a check has been done on everyone ...

If this is the way they did things, then NO WAY would Ash have had his cards stolen ... no freaking way ...

Enhanced security
 

Samosa4u- I can smell what you're cooking, it's an idea at least worthy of
consideration even if not implemented. The problem on these boards is that
there are individuals who are either a) lazy and disinterested even in a notion
that protects them or b) scruffy individualists who consider any such measures
somehow to be an affront to their "liberty" (even though they merely hint at
this and won't come right out and say it.) Something needs to change for sure
on the part of all parties, and the "I've always done it x or y way and won't
change" routine ain't it. Fighting the premise isn't a promising start.

Trent King

I actually don't think you could convince the high-end dealers to segregate themselves for a number of reasons.

This is all a really good argument for holding shows at casino conference centers. I cannot think of any other type of venue that offers state of the art surveillance of public spaces and hardcore private armed security as SOP. NSCC Las Vegas, baby!

Since I'm an hour by air or six hours in the car away from Las Vegas I'd love to see that happen.

I miss when the Philly show was at Valley Forge....I think a lot of dealers prefer that locations over the Oaks Venue.

It’s weird how you keep calling people lazy because they don’t agree with what you think protects them.

Most dealers I've talked to at the show prefer Oaks because it's a lot easier for them to unload and then load out. The Valley Forge show was downstairs and much harder to get stuff in and out of is what I've been told.

Enhanced security
 

Notfast-

It's weird that you can't type more than one brief sentence. Are you
on a net54 economy plan?

Also, your comment about "laziness" is, ironically enough, lazy in and of
itself. It's definitely the case that some folks who object to added security
ideas lack the energy to accomplish them, regardless of their role. It's
also true that some folks have convinced themselves these suggestions are
an intrusion somehow.

Crazy thought- how about suggesting your idea for a security benefit, rather
than merely tear down the ideas of others? Or is that asking too much? I'm
sure your reply will be Pulitzer worthy. Maybe try to reply with substance?

Trent King

Not reading prior posts in the thread with other suggestions seems like something a lazy and disinterested person would do.

Enhanced security
 

Notfast- you do go on when putting the onus on everyone but yourself, I'll
give you that. The problem is that your cited input is essentially a deflection
of any sort of personal responsibility at shows. According to you, everyone
else involved- show promoters, sellers and assistants, any sort of hired
security- must exert themselves without fail, so that YOU don't have to show
legitimate identification. The key to limiting access to unknown bad guys is
to make those who wish enter, account for who they are. Capisce? It's also
the least labor intensive of any step you mentioned- yet it's a no-no because
your sense of liberty is somehow bruised. The goal here is to come up with a
plan to best confound thieves, not how to best placate extremely sensitive
adults at shows. Would a designated "safe space" at a show, help to calm
your delicate sensibilities? Good lord.

Trent King

PS- Your remarked several posts ago that it would be your last on the
subject. How's that comment holding up?

I don’t even know how to respond to this but I guess I’ll try. I literally copy/pasted what I thought should be done and you either mixed my comments up with someone else’s or are just glossing over them because you don’t agree.


-Increased visible security (said this twice in one post and that it should be the top priority)
-Increased cameras that are visible (think TV monitor showing your face when you walk in like retailers do)

And then the kicker…INCREASED personal responsibility for those set up..but then again, it really shouldn’t be an increase because it should be a top priority already.

In regards to it being not labor intensive…maybe. If you’re legitimately just looking at ID’s then you are right. But that would really serve little to no purpose in deterring theft, as I stated earlier in this thread. If you’re collecting, verifying, maintaining & storing ID information, that would be VERY labor intensive and likely cost prohibitive…especially at a larger venue.

Also, pretty weird you’re talking about “safe spaces” and “delicate sensibilities” when you’re the one who is obviously getting hot and bothered that others don’t agree fully support your single idea.

Yeah…you’re mixing up comments. :D

Double post. Whoops.