Final UPDATE. PSA Guarantee on a doctored card - Actual good news this time
 

Many of you are no doubt familiar with my 54T Mays in PSA 8.5 that was previously identified by the BODA team as being doctored. You can see those deets here:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=8106

And the previous N54 thread here:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=2374138

So I recently sent this very card in to PSA for them to check it out under their quality assurance review. The whole idea being that under their guarantee, if it has indeed been doctored, then PSA has the distinct pleasure of honoring their guarantee by writing me a big check to compensate me for buying a doctored card.

I'm happy to report that they have now concluded their review, although I'm less happy with the results. They sent me this email earlier today (I've eliminated his name to avoid potential issues there):

"My name is [name], I'm a specialist with PSA Customer Relations.
I am emailing you regarding your Quality Assurance Review Submission, which we are working on getting back to you.

Your card was reviewed by our Director of Grading who confirms the Authenticity and grade of the card.
We will have your card sent back to you via FedEx overnight by tomorrow at the latest.

This email is being sent to you as a courtesy and no response is needed from your end. Do not hesitate to contact us if you need anything or further clarification.

We thank you for your patience and understanding."

I emailed back to inquire whether they would be including any additional documentation, and he responded as follows:

"Unfortunately PSA does not include a certificate of authenticity, however the fact that the card has been sent to us and is being sent back to you with the cert number still intact (not deactivated) should be proof enough that the card is most certainly authentic."

So there you have it. Apparently BODA was wrong, and I can sleep well at night knowing that PSA stands behind their original grade. No doubt about it.

so basically the modifications were/are undetectable?

Something like that seems to be their assertion, at least the way I'm reading between the lines.

I’m having a hard judging the tone of this post. Are you now comfortable with this card in your registry and collection?

Graders typically stand behind the grade. This outcome could have been predicted and might have on the original thread. PSA nor SGC, which is now PSA, could not afford to actually buy back all of the cards they have graded that are actually altered.

That's one reason why PSA is the arbiter of their Grade Guarantee. They determine whether or not they have to pay out.

The only way this changes is to take them to court and show the before and after images, but I think you have to do it in their jurisdiction. Or you could go scorched Earth and torment them on social media, in which case they'll still make you file a suit against them, but they'll also restrict you from your PSA account or the ability to submit cards to them again.

So they couldn't detect the trimming or the recoloring? That's your industry leader, folks!

I guess my sarcasm can be a little difficult to decipher sometimes.

Sadly, I am not comfortable having this card in my collection.

We control the horizontal. We control the vertical. Utterly fucking predictable. Sorry Nicolo.

Understood, thought this was the sentiment, but wanted to confirm. I’m sorry to hear this. What do you think your next steps will be?

Hahaha

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Sometimes I have the feeling that this is the only type of doctored card PSA would be able/willing to identify.

brianp(arker)-beme

You will still get more than what you paid for the card if you give this to an auction. People who bid in auctions that go after grades buy and pay up for the number the holders they don’t buy the card you’re still gonna be fine. To me, you’re in the driver's seat PSA blessed it. It’s gold because the slab is good. Be happy with it in your collection.

Agreed. Unless the grading error is so obvious that it would be an embarrassment to their basic competency, like grading a reprint card as an original. Otherwise, they will deflect and deny.

What is interesting about raulus's card is that it was part of a big submission that Moser made to PSA, and they rejected about half of the cards. Why didn't they send them all back? And what balls PSA has to continue to defend the cards in that submission they chose to grade back then.

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At this point, my only options are to sell it and let someone else deal with it, or else to sit on it.

Not really excited about either of these options.

I suppose I could also buy another one, and slide this one to the back of the closet until I decide what I want to do about it. But that comes with a pretty hefty price tag.

So I'm likely to continue to do nothing, whilst aggressively directing negative energy at this piece every time it comes within eyeshot. Curse you, Moser!

Sell it, hopefully with disclosure, and replace it. Not worth the aggravation.

I think my biggest misgiving about that approach is knowing that whoever buys it is likely to flip it, but without disclosure, to a buyer who would likely be oblivious to the history.

So I would be enriching someone willing to go there, and sticking someone else with it who doesn't realize that it's tainted.

You can't control the future in any event unless you destroy the card completely. But you can control the immediate sale with a clear conscience, IMO.

Is the PSA certification number still 28639479 ?
I cannot get it to come up on PSA but 28639478 does and all I’m gonna say about that card is it’s interesting

Yep. Just don't want some other poor collector who has saved up their hard-earned bread for many moons to get bamboozled, ultimately ending up with the same disappointment, yet at a much higher price tag.

Sell it here. That way, if we see it for sale down the road, we'll at least know who the unethical person is.

Again has anyone tried pulling it up on PSA unless I’m doing something wrong it’s not showing up

Good catch. Hadn't checked that. The cert is still in my sets as 28639479. Yet when I click on the button to verify the cert, it gives me an error message.

I just sent a follow-up email to inquire about this, particularly because he asserted that it hasn't been decertified.

If they claim it’s not altered and there’s not evidence it is (a lie) so they don’t have to honor the guarantee, what possible grounds are there to invalidate the cert? :rolleyes:

That is it. People inherently must love being abused.

PSA has graded 10s of millions of cards and not only have they graded them all accurately but only a few times did an altered card ever get past them. If you do not believe me, just ask them.

Everyone knows this so if you are someone who accepts those terms then you have nothing to be upset about if it is at your expense. If one does not accept this, then divest and do not support them. Yeah right like that is ever happening. PSA put all their chips on greed and ego and those come up almost 100% of the time. HOUSE WINS!

If I am not mistaken the PSA 8 T206 Wagner or a card like that was once reviewed by PSA and after the grade was confirmed the cert # was invalid for a few days. It seemed as if the cert # was withdrawn during the review but there was a time lapse after grade confirmation until the cert # was reactivated.

Why should be disclose anything? He innocently bought the POS card relying on the reputation of the TPG. They doubled down and said it was good. How far does he have to go? I am all for disclosure but what is he disclosing? This is for PSA to defend, imo. I think he did the right thing by bringing it to their attention.

I understand that, I guess personally I would not feel comfortable selling a card I knew to be altered without laying out the facts.

The truth. That's it, just the truth. Actual, honest reality. Should that not be enough of a reason?

I'm sure by tomorrow morning this will be another thread where we pretend that just being honest is oh so complicated and/or difficult and/or somehow actually wrong.

During most card reviews, they deactivate the cert and re-establish once it gets completed. So they may still be closing out the review and the cert will pop up.

Specifically to that PSA 8 Honus Wagner (of which there is only 1: #00000001), PSA claimed that it was not being reviewed, just that there was a glitch or outage on their site for that specific card.

The whole altered card world is super frustrating to me as a consumer. I understand your pov. In truth, disclosing might not have any impact on the final price. I would think that most people who are buying high grade 50s star cards either have to know, assume or don't care that they have an altered card. Registry points are important, ya know.

I am sure the price would still be strong.

Not gonna argue with that. I just went back and reread what was done to the card and it is obvious it is an altered card...nothing subjective there. So disclosure should be in order.

The best way to do that is to give it to an auction house that will write it up properly giving the card the best chance of being identified as an altered card that subsequent potential buyers can refer back to, if they wanted. If it is listed on eBay the description will not exist after 60 days.

The site needs a "BINGO!!" button.

But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved PSA.

I agree...the card should be destroyed!

Hahaha...true!

Is this autobiographical?

More like in reverse. I started out a big fan. Flash back to 1996, sent in a bunch of cards purchased from an SCD ad, got a call from Mike Baker telling me they were all trimmed and explaining what to look for. I thought they were great. It took quite some time to undo that perception.

Instead of destroying the card, selling it with disclosure, selling it without disclosure, and keeping it in its slab there is another fun option...

I'm going to start making Tiffany stickers and putting them on my slabs. Then in my listing descriptions, I'll proudly disclose, "as seen in the Tiffany card database!"

I bet they'll even sell for a premium. If anyone else wants a sticker, let me know.

Then have a little fun with it. See how far you can shove it up the backside of PSA.

Nifty little YouTube video of it being liberated, resubmitted, and denied a number grade at PSA, SGC, CGC & Beckett would be fun to watch. Get someone else to do the submissions.

Might make a few bucks back on YouTube too…. Might even get some donations for that matter.

https://thecollectorconnection.com/b...e?itemid=20787

"To be 100% forthcoming we thought the upper right of the top border was trimmed. We submitted this at the National and when we got notice of the grade we immediately asked PSA, before we even took possession, to take another look. They stood behind their grade. Of course once it received a grade the question became "How is this only a 1.5?"

Disclosure won't necessarily hurt the end price. It's better to do it and be able to sleep at night.

NOW THAT is an interesting suggestion!
 

Quite thought provoking!

How many do you have? Outed slabs, I mean, not stickers.

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Response from PSA on this score:

Not to worry, any card that is at our facility is placed "on hold". You won't be able to see the cert in our database until it has shipped out, (we should be shipping your order today).

I think (and it has seemingly been proven) that PSA has no plans at all to honor their guarantee with this scandal in any situation. The fear of the dominoes that would fall if they even capitulate to a single claim on this would essentially bankrupt them as the submissions pile in.

Even with a preponderance of evidence they will cover their eyes like a three-year old and yell "No! I don't see it!". Pretty sure they would argue the sky is green at this point if it helps move this to the background.

It's a sad situation and I feel for the innocent buyers with millions wrapped up in this issue, which is essentially a middle man situation to a fraud for profit ring. There is no logical path of recourse for the end buyer left holding the bag. You are either forced to hold a card you don't feel good about as it is tainted, Destroy it and lose thousands, or pass it on and live with the guilt. Not a great corner to be stuck in.

This is the perfect storm of events to show these card doctors what they have done and absolutely prevents me from spending any large amounts on high condition cards ever again.

I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, is it possible to sue both Moser for knowingly committing fraud and PSA for not honoring the basic tenets of their "guarantee" when faced with a mountain of evidence? Seems the photos would be interesting to a jury.

Also, do you have a microscope and high res photo of the scratch repair on Mays? If that is a smoothing and recolor, it would be interesting to see.

Currently, I don't have any. I plan on adding as many as I can find though. It'll be fun! I might even send her some before and after pictures myself to gain entry into her prestigious "database". Maybe we can get PSA to create the Tiffany Cards registry?

PSA does not have a guarantee. They just have a marketing department that wants you to think they have one so they can justify their absurd upcharges.

People in this hobby still haven't even begun to understand the scale of this. Even if PSA were only forced to make good on a mere 1% of altered cards, it would still bankrupt them. Hell, even 0.1% would bankrupt them.

I do not understand how they'd have a leg to stand on, if taken to court. The band on Mays' sleeve was clearly filled in and it could not be more obvious, given the "before and after".

PSA's vague statement did not cover any specifics whatsoever. Did you press them on it, or demand a specific explanation that goes beyond their vague bullshit?

I would either take them to court or hire an attorney who will threaten to do so. Just the threat of it could get you some restitution. And if it went to court, you could set a precedent for hundreds (if not thousands) of other collectors. You could make lemonade out of lemons not just for yourself, but for countless others.

You could be revered as a Hobby Legend. Think positive and make something good come of this blatant fraud.

Anyone want to represent me as my legal counsel?

Not sure I'm motivated to spend much, so you'd need to be willing to take the gamble that we could get PSA to pay for my legal fees.

33 years of grading cards. It adds up.

I’ll take that bet that they won’t sell for a premium! I don’t think collectors will want to pay a premium for cards that have been suspected of being altered, soaked in an unknown chemical or tap water, mislabeled, stolen, or suspected of being doctored. However, I do believe that everyone would appreciate the disclosure on cards before they buy them.

100% agreed. My guess (total guess by me just going by auction catalogs & social media), I think somewhere between 33% to 50% of medium to higher graded PSA encased cards have been altered. Getting harder to tell nowadays since scanned card images have photo settings boosted like brightness,, contrast, blur, etc…

That’s part of the reason why comparing before & after pics of cards in diff slabs are very difficult & that’s even before taking into account the diff source image resolutions. For people who don’t know, there’s a lot of coding & math behind images & PDF that get even more complicated / distorted when you resize & save as diff formats. That’s why simple animated gif comparisons don’t usually work

It’s like Kelso’s quote from the film Heat.

* Neil McCauley : how do you get this information?
* Kelso : It comes to you, this stuff just flies through the air, they send this information "beamed" out over the f’in place, you just got to know how to grab it, see, I know how to grab it.

In this case, knowing where to “grab it” is social media. Higher positioned people in the hobby post pics all the time of altered cards whether they unknowingly bought older cert PSA slabbed cards that way or not.

BUT BUT BUT...The upcharges are for insurance for things like this..:D:D:D:D:D

What a scam. Sorry about this Nicolo. I know how much you enjoy their registry but I'd say F you to them for good and pull your shit off that stupid site too.

First, let's be clear. I don't alter cards. I use distilled water. I don't know what's in Kurt's card spray, but I don't use that or "unknown chemicals" to soak my cards.

Do I have your permission to use your logo to make some little stickers that I can apply to some slabs? Similar to the PWCC stickers. Should be a fun experiment. You can add them to your spreadsheet. I'll even send you the before vs after scans myself to save you some time.

The guarantee is BS. Bill Mastro admitted in court that he trimmed the PSA 8 Wagner and went to jail for it, yet it is the crown jewel in the PSA crown. If that doesn't get a card de-certified, nothing will. When it was public, PSA had to disclose its reserves for bad grades and the numbers were laughably low as compared to the potential liability for just the one card. And it is so, so unbiased to have the person accused of missing the grade also be the one who reviews the work. Yeah, I wish I could get that deal for my work.

The thing PSA counts on is that challenging its decision requires a lawsuit and most cards are not worth paying a lawyer to fight over. Plus, if you were to sue, you'd need to present either eyewitness testimony from the card doctor or expert testimony to debunk PSA's opinion. As to the former, good luck with that. Mastro admitted what he'd done as part of an allocution designed to get him less time in the can. Otherwise, he'd never have said a word. As to the latter, you end up having what lawyers call a 'whore fight" between experts and the only certainty of that is expenses.

The more interesting question, unfortunately, is what to do, assuming that the card no longer is desired. PSA says the card is good. Do you accept that decision and sell it as is? Sell it with a recitation of what happened? Not sell it? I don't know the answer, fortunately.

You need to buy this 1954 Topps Mays PSA 8.5 and put your sticker on it. Like they say go big or go home. PSA had the Wagner and you could have the Mays.

If he wants to sell it at a discount because he's no longer happy with it, I'll gladly buy it and consign it for a profit if it makes him sleep better at night.

I get that this stuff is disheartening to learn about at first, but once you realize that it's not just that one card in your collection or that handful of cards, or even that long list of cards posted to the BODA threads but rather it's the overwhelming majority of the entire sum total value of cards in this hobby, then it changes your perspective. Tens of millions of cards have been cleaned or altered in this hobby. We all have them. There's just no escaping it. It is what it is. If you're not OK with that, then this isn't the hobby for you.

Granted there are oodles of altered cards residing in numbered slabs. But I think you are overstating the number just a bit. Why even have an "altered" disclaimer if the numbers you state are somewhat close to reality?

And the Mays in question is particularly unnerving because it's had a fake substance added to the card. It's not just a cleaning, soaking or other attempt to get the card back to a normal state. The nefarious addition of color is a permanent "scar" that is irreversibly intrusive (and in no way acceptable to even the most ardent TPG apologists).

Just to be clear, your Instagram is jackies_and_jordans?

Is removing stains altering cards?


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I get snowman is an easy target. He puts himself out there but going after him is like the police arresting the corner guy instead of the boss. Didn’t you read my post above? You’re not looking at the big picture. There are well-known people in the hobby who keep displaying altered cards & images going by your definition.

Additionally, you haven’t addressed the scanned image debacle.

PSA Guarantee on a doctored card
 

I’m not targeting snowman/jackie_and_jordans. He comments on my posts and mentioned me here. He even direct messaged me.

If you see someone post an altered card, then tag, email, or message me and I will add it to the altered card database.

I’m not qualified to address scanner settings, as I have no experience in the field or know much about them. You have stated that you do. Therefore, you should be pointing out it out and trying to educate people about it.


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No, of course not. That's a stupid question. And every grading company agrees, as evidenced by their actions, despite what you may think their policies are based on some PR social media response they might put out to assuage you and others of your ilk.

The grading companies know that the majority of collectors think cleaning cards is perfectly acceptable. They also know that a significant faction of the hobby is comprised of people like yourself who are vehemently opposed to it, because some people just fear the boogeyman. They know the hobby is divided. Their goal is to play the middle. They don't want to pick sides. They don't want to alienate a significant proportion of their customers. That's why they put out all the double-speak. One minute you have Peter from SGC saying, "as long as there is nothing physical remaining on the card that we can detect, then it's OK" and Ryan Hoge effectively endorsing Kurt's Card Care one week by saying, "we know that Kurt's Card Care was used on the Wemby 1 of 1 but we're going to stand by our assessment of the card" and then decertifying one of Kurt's submissions the next week and Ryan saying he doesn't like people "manipulating" cards in his interview with Geoff Wilson. They're trying to appease everyone. They're trying to play the middle, and apparently they're doing it well.

But at the end of the day, their true policy is only measurable by their outcomes. They know the Gretzky Wagner was trimmed because Mastro testified to it under oath, and yet they haven't decertified it. They also know that every single 1986 Fleer sticker card that has ever been submitted to them without wax on back has had that wax removed, because ALL 86 Fleer stickers come with wax on them. Not some. ALL. They also know that all these old 1914 cracker jack cards that don't have stains on them have been cleaned, yet they still grade them as numeric. The same with all the old hot dog cards without the hot dog water stains. They know they were cleaned, yet they still grade them. The same with all the 48 Leaf cards with non-foxed borders. They know how acidic that card stock is and how that affects foxing over time, yet they give numeric grades to those cards every time knowing they've been conserved (and the same is true with other sets printed on high wood pulp fiber card stock). They also know when a card was soaked to remove it from a scrapbook every time a vintage card gets submitted with glue residue and surface abrasions on the back. Yet they allow that as well. Numeric grade every time. Sometimes even relatively high grades like with Orlando's now infamous pre-war boxing card (which most definitely did show evidence of having been removed from a scrapbook at the time of submission yet still received a 6). I could give endless examples of cards that you and your friends should all take issue with (if you're being consistent with your criticisms) but that are completely standard practice in this hobby and always have been.

At the end of the day, the fact of the matter remains, whether you like it or not, that it is acceptable to clean and soak cards in this hobby, as long as you're not using some harsh chemicals that alter them in some way (like soaking cards in a bucket of bleach, leaving them brittle and faded).

There are perfectly safe ways to clean and restore a card that do not damage them at all and that do not leave anything behind on the card, and that do not affect the integrity of the card stock. Just because you don't know how it can be done doesn't mean it can't be. And furthermore, when done properly, it even preserves and prolongs the lifespans of those cards.

You can try to change the discussion back to, "that's fine, but what I'm demanding is just disclosure", but we all know that's a bullshit red herring. What you really want is anyone who views this topic differently from you to be kicked out of the hobby. You want them publicly tarred and feathered. You want them all to be "canceled". But if cleaning cards, removing wax, and soaking cards to remove them from scrapbooks are acceptable practices in this hobby, then there is nothing to disclose when doing so because these acts do not have a material effect on the value of the cards. And you can't just say that it's OK to remove wax from this card but not from that one, or that it's OK to soak this card on water but not that one, or that it's OK for cards manufacturers to remove stray ink marks from the backs of player signed cards caused by athletes stacking them before they dry while signing (and yes, they ALL do this using rubbing alcohol) but it's not OK for a collector to do it. You have to be consistent.

I rarely agree with Travis :D but he is right on this issue. Proper conservation and cleaning of cards is just as important and as valid as it is with any other paper work of art. As long as it does not harm the card, it is fine. In some cases, it may become critical to the preservation of the item.

So yes you are jackies_and_jordans and no you don’t think removing stains is altering if done your way, but if done the “wrong way” then it is altering. That’s what I got from your response.
Then you went on a long tantrum. Let’s focus back on what you claim is your acceptable cleaning method for removing stains from cards.

On here you just stated you use distilled water. Why on my Instagram post, that showed a stained removed on a card you sold, did you flip flop all over the place about how the stain was removed?

You first said it was soaked in kryptonite. Then said it was just the scanner settings. Then said you rinsed the dirt off with ordinary tap water and it was the scanner settings. Then blocked everyone that questioned the methods you said you used. Seems like a lot of unnecessary BS if you just soaked it in distilled water.

In fact, I even stated that if it was just distilled water then we wouldn’t even be having a debate about the card. In your repeated post you referenced water, but never once mentioned distilled water.


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Snowman just came back from 'quitting the board' after he transparently made up a lie about another member during a tantrum and couldn't come up with a way to weasel out of it. You aren't going to get to get consistency or anything approaching honesty from him. His lies are so inconsistent and poorly done that even most of the other people who are against honesty and disclosure have to abandon him in these threads.

The altered card database is fantastic.

Do you think museums are going to restore paper works of art using unknown substances and chemicals, made in some guys basement, bought and used by someone on the internet with no knowledge about the type of paper or training on what to do other than watch a YouTube video??? lol.

Proper conservation and cleaning of paper work of art needs to be done using proven chemicals and methods, done by trained professionals, and documented and disclosed on the provenance. If this was done with cards, then I don’t think most people in the hobby would have a problem with it.


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If you want to discuss and make accusations against specific individuals (me) or companies, then you can abide by the rules in play here and post your name publicly like everyone else if you want to have a discussion. Otherwise you can kindly f off. I'm not going to entertain an anonymous troll who never answers my questions but always demands answers to hers, and who always conducts herself disingeuously.

And in the meantime, maybe go buy yourself a scanner and figure out how they work before making ignorant accusations against people based on differences between scans.

Captain disingenuous is back. I said I was done with that thread, not the entire site. Looks like I may soon be done with this thread too if it turns into the same circle jerk crew as the last one.

Interesting that he has been exposed as a liar on here. Which makes me wonder why anyone would believe anything he says?

I’m glad you enjoy the database. It is an educational tool to help collectors find out more information about a card quickly and easily.


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We can only hope you do. Still awaiting that evidence for your claim about Lorewalker, Captain Caught In A Lie Every Thread.

Go find a single post where I lied. Just one. I'll wait. And post my question I posed to Lorewalker while you're at it since you keep lying about what I said.

It's very easy to do.

Here you are claiming Lorewalker is lying about his identity. You've been asked for evidence several times, but you had a tantrum and left instead when nobody was having your bullshit. Still awaiting the proof :rolleyes:.

Here we go again with the smoke and mirrors. If you like , then I can post all the screen shots to support what I have mentioned above.

I am not trolling you, you brought up my name. If you don’t want to interact with me, then it’s a good idea to not mention me.

I’m happy to continue to have a respectful and honest dialogue with you about labeling cards that have been identified on the altered card database with stickers. After all you believe it will increase their value. However, if we are going to partner on this, then we should both have a better understanding as to what each of us believes card altering is.


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Thank you for posting what I actually said. Now carry on with your bullshit accusations.

No, you can't, and you know it. That's why you never post here. Because you won't post your real name and you know the rules here dictate that if you want to cast accusations against specific people or companies that you must post your real name along with it. And your entire online existence as "Tiffany Cards" is to run around anonymously, casting false accusation after false accusation against anyone and everyone you disagree with.

It’s right there in black and white. You falsely claimed he is lying about his identity. You refuse to provide evidence and instead say the transcript is a bullshit accusation. You are such a piece of shit liar lol

This might be a stupid question but when PSA does a review ,
And I am referring to the Raulus card that was touched up -
Do they crack it out of the case and inspect it ?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the circumstances and the card in question.