Uncut Proof sheet c. 1913 with Cobb and Joe Jackson in May '24 Hunt Auctions
 

Any thoughts on the potential history of this uncut sheet with Cobb and Joe Jackson that was sold by Hunt Auctions for $30K plus buyer's premium?

Do people think it is legit?

https://huntauctions.com/live/imagev...=501&lot_qual=

I don't think anyone really knows much about this, beyond what was written up in the Hunt description. It certainly seems to have been identified to be from around the 1913 date based upon the players and a couple of paper experts, and it appears to my eyes to be colorized photos. They have an unique look.

What a great mini-set this could have been! Besides the obvious superstar appeal of Jackson and Cobb, I love the two action shots (Bender and Marquard), and the Davis with the two cops in the background.


Brian (and here is an even bigger scan to appreciate the look of this sheet even more)

The Harry Davis image is cool. I'm guessing he's hoisting a flag maybe?

Seems (wherever this comes from) that they misspelled it "HUGIHE" Jennings.

That is nice! Amazing what pops up.

I know nothing about it at all. To me it looks like something the modern Helmar company would make.

Ha ha, don’t give them ideas.

Just from that image, I don't think it is real. I'm sure they think it is; otherwise, it wouldn't be in their catalog.

It's hard to imagine a sheet like that sitting around for 111 years without being discovered. Is there any explanation given about where they found it? Maybe in the files of some defunct printing company? It's also surprising that no other cards from this set have apparently ever surfaced. Amazing discovery.

The only explanation given in the description is “Important discovery originates from a hobbyist who acquired the piece in the Brooklyn area over 40 years ago.”

I want to give the benefit of the doubt, but I am skeptical.

If only it had been found in an attic in Ohio.

It is a very intriguing piece. Definitely suspicious of the high tier player choice, but that of course was common to do for the day.

The printing and images chosen to me are very high quality, something I just can't see being done post war.

If I had to personally guess what I think this is, I would say there's a good chance it's something akin to '33 Goudey. Some sort of popular/star player release from slightly later maybe the 20s-30s.

If the original photos used to create these aren't known to exist or most aren't I would give even more merit to them being real. (Lost media=impossible to use in modern era?)

Just my thoughts.

Other authentic vintage uncut material of this age has surfaced in the New York area in the last few years. Being discovered so much later does not raise doubt in my mind by itself.

It is nigh impossible to authenticate an unknown item though, which, if period, may not even be for unissued cards but testing other kinds of printed pictures.

I am surprised by the price paid by someone, unless they know something I do not which is very possible. I was watching this one.

Who is Roy Otis?

Not for me, only as a fantasy piece. Been Collecting Ty Cobb items, cards and memoriblia since 1970. Dubious. Never saw anything like this. Colorized. But admit had these calendar pieces that were colorized.

Good question. I found a Paul Franklin Otis, identified as 'Bill Otis' on the Baseball Reference site, that played 4 games for the New York Yankees in early July, 1912. Emblem experts...is the 'NY' on his sleeve match what was on Yankee uniforms in the early 1910's?

It fits the time frame of the proof sheet, and 'Paul' or 'Bill' could easily be mistaken for Roy. Ok, the name thing is a little sketchy stretchy, but it could have been a mistake.

Here is a photo of Bill Otis next to the Roy Otis card on the sheet. There are some similarities (the shape of his ear is pretty similar, the eyes and mouth as well), but not convinced it is a good match due to the fullness of face on the proof sheet compared to Bill's photo.

Attachment 620311
Attachment 620310


Brian

Taking a look at some 1912 T207 cards, the 'NY' emblem seen on the proof sheet does seem to match those seen on Yankee player T207 cards.

Brian

Fun side factoid. Bill Otis was 1 for 17 during his major league career, his one hit coming off Walter Johnson in an extra inning game that Johnson came in the fourth inning to pitch over 12 innings of relief(!).

He was also the oldest living MLB player (100 years old) when he passed away in 1990.


Brian

Roy Otis is Otis "Doc" Crandall, as they state in the description.
This item was discussed here years ago:
https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1385155

Hunt Auctions write-up on the uncut sheet says that it was supposed to be Otis Crandall?

"Thin to medium stock paper uncut sheet (slightly thicker than 1914/1915 Cracker Jack card issues) depicting (12) Major League players in full color including Ty Cobb, Bill Schardt, Chief Bender, Roy Otis (actually Otis Crandall), Hughie Jennings, Ira Thomas, Vean Gregg, Harry Davis, Hub Perdue, Rube Marquard, Joe Jackson, and Frank Baker."

Todd, Thanks so much for providing this info!

So this item was actually being sold for the second time by Hunt Auctions. According to the link provided in the thread from 2015, it sold for $36,634 plus buyer’s premium in 2015, which is less than the $30K plus buyer’s premium it sold this time around..

Leon’s comment from 2015 is fascinating/revealing: “This from a close hobby friend and as trustworthy as they come- (this is assuming it hasn't changed hands)
"Around the late 1990's, the owner of that uncut sheet in Hunt's consigned it to me for private sale. I made a color photocopy of it and sent it out to about 50 people. Nobody showed a strong interest in it, and most were not sure if it was period. I ended up returning it to the owner. I think we were asking 15K for it. I don't remember who got my mailing but it was obviously all of the heavy hitters I knew back then. ...”"

If Leon’s friend was shopping it around for $15k in the ‘90s, then i guess the seller must have been happy to get $40k at auction in 2015 (assuming it didn’t change hands, etc)

Don’t know if it means anything but it appears The lettering is done by hand ,
The “S”s , “H”s etc are all slightly different , “Gregg” and “Marquard” are way off centered - giving the cards a crude ancient look

I don't know if it's real or not but anytime I see those big stars, in the same unique place, it gives me some pause. Someone needs to invest in some scientifc analysis of the ink, paper and the process used to print it.

.

Probably don't need all that scientific stuff. I was informed earlier that pictures of baseball players can't be reproduced yet in another thread. Somehow we don't have the technology yet.:eek::rolleyes:;)

According to the description: "Lab tests regarding both the ink and paper on which it was printed were carried out by Joseph G. Barabe and Frank J. Romano (both highly respected experts in the field of analyzing historical objects and print, respectively). The Romano findings conclude with production between c.1910-1915 while Barabe concludes the possibility that it could have been produced between 1913-20."

But what gets me is that the description in the current auction says "Due to current sizing constraints for SGC holder we are unable to have the piece encapsulated however it was examined by SGC President Dave Forman in 2016 who states that the no sees “no physical evidence that contradicts the finding of the Barabe And Associates Lab Report.” but the description back in 2015 when Hunt first sold the piece claims "Due to current sizing constraints for SGC and PSA holders we were not able to have the piece encapsulated but fully guarantee its authenticity as well as the fact that it would be deemed authentic by either grading company should said holders become available."


Looks like they are walking back the assertion that both PSA or SGC would holder it if larger slabs become available.

An attic. In a trunk. It's an attic find no doubt.

Both groups of "experts" have been gradually stopping the grading of some things, usually anything they can't get right

I would just hesitate to call them baseball cards. How do you know they're cards? I know they have printer's mark for cutting but cutting something up doesn't make it a baseball card by virtue of the square having a picture of a baseball player on it.

I think the intention can't really be determined from this one sheet. They could be part of an advertising piece, a calendar, any kind of print media really. All we know for sure is that the images may have been meant to be cut out. But for what ultimate purpose is impossible to know.

For example, how do you know these weren't images intended to be arranged for a notebook cover? There's just as much precedent for that as there is for baseball cards.

Good point. I think calling them an uncut sheet of cards makes it seem more valuable than the alternatives, like an uncut notebook cover sheet. But yeah, just because they resemble cards, does not mean that there supposed to be cards (assuming they are authentic in the first place).

Tin Foil Conspiracy
 

Hmmmm....


Roy Otis / Doc Crandall


http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...0&d=1714715692


"Roy" Hobbs

https://wehco.media.clients.ellingto...1d859a8f88077d


"Doc" Graham

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/...5NjE@._V1_.jpg


Sid Finch

https://www.si.com/.image/ar_4:3%2Cc...-story-top.jpg


https://www.rutgers.edu/sites/defaul...&itok=ueh1kQbe


https://i.redd.it/g1l4457wh9i71.gif


https://a856-citystore.nyc.gov/Produ...6057-large.jpg


https://media.tenor.com/gx3YS0TZWbwA...nform-them.gif


That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it!



;););)

Dangit, I missed the Otis Crandall attribution in the lot description...4 lashes with a wet noodle for me!

Here is Doc (why in the fadoodle is he identified as Roy?) as compared to Roy Otis on the proof sheet. He was with the New York Giants during this time frame, the NY team emblem on his sleeve also seems to match the Giants emblem from that time, and more importantly, his eyebrows swoop in a very similar fashion.

Brian

My thoughts exactly.

Okay, if its not real where are those images from to create it? Lets go through the process of making this thing.

Fairly simple to get new old pictures like this. Recently it changed to now being IA. Before it was just called an app. Find a BW photo. Go to an app and colorize it. Very easy to find apps to do this. Then go to one of the apps that make old pictures move. Also very easy to find as they have even been shown on this forum using cards. Then do a still with the player in a new position and colorized.

That is one of many possible ways.

I'm talking about those specific images. Have you seen them before? I collect type 1 photo's from that time and don't recall seeing them. Are they from newspapers?

His point was you don't actually need specific images today. I think, however, when these were created, you probably did. Even if they're a fantasy piece I think they're too old for what Ben is suggesting.

I thought at first glance the Bender pose looked familiar.

I might be convinced if authenticated by Rick Harrison's memorabilia expert, or by Seth Gold,

Yeah, that was why I went straight into asking about the specific images. Those apps etc didn't exist prior to 2015 when this was first offered for sale. Also, the Helmar cards mentioned are artist renditions, these seem to be colorized photos, so there should be a B&W source.
I'm hoping that instead of just throwing in a skeptical/negative two cents and leaving, people will try to work through the process it would have taken to make something like this. I find it hard to believe that a company as experienced as Hunt would not only offer something like this if they didn't have confidence in it, let alone put it on the cover of their catalog.

That Bender image reminds me of his T207 image, close but not the same.

I want the guy with the HUGE magnifying glass!!
.

For what it’s worth Harry Davis was in Cleveland for only one year - 1912

Davis managed the club that one season. I would not be surprised if the photo on which this "card" is based was taken Opening Day, since it was common for the home team to have a parade and flag raising ceremony for the occasion, and the manager handling the flag raising would make sense, it that's what's going on in the picture (maybe with the mayor or other dignitary on the other side, plus note one of the officials in the background is removing his hat).

One picture looks like a Hollywood leading man. The others looks like the inspiration for the Stay Puff Marsh mellow man.



QUOTE=brianp-beme;2431064]Dangit, I missed the Otis Crandall attribution in the lot description...4 lashes with a wet noodle for me!

Here is Doc (why in the fadoodle is he identified as Roy?) as compared to Roy Otis on the proof sheet. He was with the New York Giants during this time frame, the NY team emblem on his sleeve also seems to match the Giants emblem from that time, and more importantly, his eyebrows swoop in a very similar fashion.

Brian[/QUOTE]

Hmm ... compared to whatever this is , T207’s are somewhat crude drawings in comparison - perhaps the t207 Bender and Gregg (C on uniform instead of Cleveland) drawings were inspired by the same photographs used in whatever this is . Edit t207 Perdue it’s definitely from the same image .. I guess what I’m getting at is most ofthese images Can be nailed down to 1911 or 1912
Note : I certainly prefer the t207 s

ID this player image
 

"Roy Otis" could make a good vintage baseball meme/inside joke here.

I made this statement in 2 other threads. I'll stop now.

The knowledge you guys have with respect to cards is insane. I have seen and read all of your complaints about the grading companies. Most would seem to be legitimate complaints.

Thus I asked: why doesn't someone on this forum buy some slabs and flips, and starting grading cards right here?

Any of the legalese can be answered by the attorneys who regularly post in these threads.

I was then informed that someone once did that very thing; someone named Bob who is no longer with us (RIP).

I highly doubt that any fakery would get past the knowledge base of this forum. Likewise, I believe cards would receive an honest grade, good or bad.

Does anyone actually print with 12 mixed colors like they did back in 1912? I think it would be relatively easy to verify with a high-res scan of the printing technique.

Or do we know that there are counterfeiters that are making cards exactly like they did 100 years ago; I figure acquiring paper is easy, but I have no problem believing this is a proof sheet for a set that just didn't get made.

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...KA&oe=663B5750
https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...sg&oe=663B54A9
https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net...ig&oe=663B4FF8
https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net...uQ&oe=663B5886

Here's a period proof sheet showing all the various colors used to create the cards. Does anyone actually print items using these techniques now?

I apologize for posting so much on this thread I just find stuff like this overwhelmingly interesting .
Whatever this thing is has an uncropped image of the t207 Perdue image ,
Not only the same expression on his face but
His Cap is Identical

I'd call that a match. Photo to artistic interpretation of said photo.

Best news is that I now know where the image of Cobb I use for my avatar came from! Can stop looking for the card now.

Help us out bro

Now just wait till the heretofore unknown T207 Cobb turns up.

The Perdue and Gregg do appear to have used the same photo as was used to produce their T207 cards...good spotting folks.

Brian

I'm sure Drew could get to the bottom of this.

What did this end up selling for, if at all?

I stumbled across the listing a few days before the auction and it intrigued me. I didn't get to look into it myself, but it's always cool to see some collective brainpower and legwork to find matching cards.

Read post 21.

Here you go
 

Sale price at bottom:
https://photos.imageevent.com/imover...913-lot501.png

Estimated Price Range: ($40,000 - $60,000)
They thought it would go for double of $30,000. :eek:

Old Software
 

FWIW thats the price without the buyers premium. All Hunt results are without it.

Thanks for the screenshot.

It took a lot of emailing to delete my invaluable account a while back, so I didn't want to have to make a new one to check.

30k seems like a decent price... but, I am talking out of my butt on the subject.

I feel much like going to church, this piece takes a little faith and belief on the side of the buyer. I wasn’t a fan when it popped up years ago and I still wouldn’t want to invest hopes and good wishes into my collection. It just seems too simplistic for the purported time period for quality.

That said, these items are so difficult sometimes as they have as much going for them as against them in an argument, so it falls on the belief of the buyer. If they are happy with the purchase then more power to them. It’s just not my bag.

I shake my head... If offered to me for $300 including premium, I'd not buy that.

The seller, the auction house, and the buyer all thought that sheet is genuine and worth exponentially more than what I think. And many of you feel the same. But a few of you have doubts.

It reminds me of that odd Goudey card from years ago, that everyone was praising and admiring as a new find. I posted doubts about the card. And a handful of folks here then gradually posted similar concerns (folks with a right smart of card sense and experience, more than me). And gradually this board's consideration was that that Goudey card wasn't genuine.

With this "sheet," I kinda hope that the sheet goes nowhere for several years, and that eventually a few more are found, some with sufficient provenance that the hobby is satisfied the sheets are genuine. I'm just not there.

That sounds similar to the Dog Food card set including Mantle. Originally only 1 was known for like a decade, but there was a period news article/ad about the set, then in the past 5 years, like 4-5 of each card were located in different locations with different backstories. The grading companies now authenticate that set.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...light=dog+food

Also from Pennsylvania!

Yeah, its not artistically sophisticated like D304 (1911-1914).

It could be that some of the reasons people don't like it are why it was never produced. Many of these crude(ish) period sets that came with different advertising backs (E92,E101,E102, E104/D359 Etc) probably started out as a printing company trying to sell time on their machines.
They send out sales people with prototypes or samples and see if you can get businesses to either buy the cards you created with just blank backs or you can add their business name for a price. Thats the formula that Felix Mendelsohn (sp?) used for all the 1916-1917 sets at least. Maybe this one never got off the cutting room floor but someone kept the prototype sample.
It could also explain why there are stars included in the player selection, easier to sell to a potential customer? Might be easier to find source photo's of stars as well...just spitballing ideas here instead of the easy "Nah, doesn't look right to me" parroting.

Exactly except this uncut sheet came out of Brooklyn 40 years ago. Was offered for sale both time out of PA, however.

Brunners may have been ugly, but still had a more layered print process than this.i also did not say it wasn’t real, I said I would not be comfortable on faith and no supporting evidence as to period. Did you read it?

Are you personally involved with this item? With 400 posts in 14 years and 6 just on this thread it’s a little odd.

No Justin, I'm not personally involved. I'm just tired of the usual "one take" posts that happen here too often so I thought I'd put some effort into this one. Yes, I had to read the post in order to pull one line out of it that helped me make fun of D304's. Then I left a space to seperate my thought and continued with my effort to discuss this item I find interesting.

(space for seperate thought)

Its funny that someone would have to be "involved with the item" to take interest in it. I'm reminded why I prefer lurking most of the time, so I'll just stick to that from now on...and I've been here for 21 years now, there was a site move in 2009 that changed the dates in everyones bio pages at the time.

I think your idea that the uncut sheet was potentially created by a printer to drum up business is very interesting, and sounds plausible to me. Yes, perhaps no one took the bait as they didn’t find it appealing enough to try to sell. Thanks for posting your thoughts on the subject.

I still think the biggest issue with this piece is whether or not these were baseball cards in the first place. As suggested, I think the idea that these were cards contributed to the perceived value of it. But what if these weren't cards at all? What makes them cards in their present state?

For example, I find it problematic that these baseball cards don't have team identifiers on them. Pretty unusual for a baseball card of the time, isn't it? Can anyone think of another contemporary set that didn't include team names?

Even the low-fi candy sets like Baseball Bats included team names with the images.

T227, T4, The orange borders,
Several sets in the 1920's.

Orange Borders is a set I didn't consider. But T4 is a photographic set and not a baseball card set. The T227 set was a generic sport-based set and not a baseball set. A set released in the 1920s would not be contemporary.

Fine art lithographers do things very much like they were done back then.
The number of colors is whatever was required. Some cigar box labels use more than 12, sometimes much more. T206s were around 8 colors T210 and red suns were only two plus a gloss coat which sort of doesn't count.

Looked at close up, it should be easy to tell. They would be more of a T206 ish image, a colorized black and white halftone. Just not done as well.

My apologies if you took offense, I thought it a valid inquiry with some of the activities on the board in the past week. If you have seen my posts. I would think the one thing I do not do is "parrot" as I try to give honest thoughts and opinions. I can assure you that they have often not agreed with the crowd. I seem to have read too much into that phrasing.

Yes, mine has the same date of 2009 for the change as well, so apologies for underestimating while playing it safe.

If it is a contrary opinion then please have at it as constructive talk is important. I just read your reply as a subtle jab and did not see the reasoning as it was a personal opinion the same as yours and not directed at you at all.

I readily stated it could or could be, but I just felt that a 30k commitment to this being a rare unissued baseball set more than a possible salesman sample or printers proof was not in my personal window. I think that opinion was fair.

Yeah...I do find it sad that even when it comes to cards it seems that humans cannot have differing opinions without it being contentious. Used to be just over religions and politics.

I think the sheet is fascinating. Love hobby mysteries and love to float ideas and theories. Should not lead to animosity though.

A thought I just had, it's a TCMA/Renata Galasso All Time set that never got released. Not necessarily from one of those two, but paper experts opinions notwithstanding I could easily see it being an "indy" 1960's or 70's piece that didn't have MLB permission so they left off trademarked info.

I think it would be fairly easy to determine general period it comes from with the sheet in hand. I don’t see anything that makes me doubt 1910’s from the scan but these things are always much easier in hand and give much more detail that way. Has anyone here actually handled the sheet? If it’s been known within the hobby since the 90’s then a fair number have probably encountered it.


While I am not certain that it is period I am more questioning whether these are even cards at all. It’s cool either way, but the auctioneer has made a ton of leaps (there’s no evidence this is a Cracker Jack proof, etc.) to try and pump it.

Like I said on the other auction post, let's see if this comes back up for sale in the next few months.

They only said theories were floated since it's first sale in 2015. From the description: "Several theories have surfaced to include the possibility it was a pre-proof for the Cracker Jack series of 1914 and 1915 (sheet was also found in Brooklyn area where Cracker Jack cards were produced). Another belief was that it may well have been a proof for the prolific American Caramel (and similar candy issues) of the 1910-15 era."

I don't feel they hyped it all. Imagine if this had been in Memory Lane the other night. An extra 35K for the poetic prose, alone.

I have not seen it and agree would feel better if I had to speak to it being period but they had two different experts do lab tests and Dave Forman also looked at it in 2016.

I think the question is were these prototypes for a set that never got issues, an early version of a some set that is now mainstream or a notebook cover. And to me I am not sure there is any less value to it. If it is period and we never know what it is, I think it is a great item. Kind of shocked it sold for as little as it did.

And so that I do not get attacked, I have no affiliation with the house, the buyer in either sale or the seller in the first sale. These days you have to disclose upfront to potentially save from being stoned by unhappy guys.

So very interesting! I'm 50/50 with a lean toward legit, meaning it's vintage to the images portrayed, whatever they were supposed to be used for. However, by 40 years ago, when it first surfaced, apparently, there were already Peter Nashes and others fabricating pieces to cash in on the collecting boom. It could also be an artistic endeavor, but if so I don't know why the artist wouldn't just make it a finished uncut sheet rather than a proof. More questions than answers with this baby, which would be enough to keep me from betting more than a few hundred bucks of throwaway money on it. But a number of bidders clearly disagreed and were willing to take the plunge.