Pre War Era Players you don't see in HOF discussions
 

Sure we see Sherry Magee and several other players in these discussions quite a bit, but Indian Bob Johnson is a name I never see in HOF conversations. 139 OPS Plus. 8 All-Star appearances and just shy of being a very rare .300 Avg, .400 OBP, 300 HR club member. Retiring in 1945 his 288 Home Runs was fairly high on the all-time list at that point. With the competition in his playing days 8 All-Star appearances as an Outfielder is pretty impressive. Amazingly he did all that while not even reaching the majors until he was 27!

What are some other names that you don't often see bandied about in HOF discussions?

Might be slightly outside of the scope of what you are asking, but there are some players who played in the Negro Leagues, pre-war that should be getting another look.

Oliver Marcell is one of them. He was referred to as "Ghost." Judy Johnson considered him to be one of the best fielding infielders. He was good with the stick as well.

Dick Lundy, a Shortstop received similar praise from New York Giants manager, John McGraw.

Spottswood Poles

The “Black Ty Cobb”

Purple Heart in France and buried in Arlington National Cemetery

I feel like I'm the only one constantly scratching my head that Will White isn't in.

All the guys I feel are overlooked have been discussed here multiple times. They're never getting in. But that doesn't stop me or anyone else from treating them as if they actually are: Cecil Travis, Riggs Stephenson, Charlie Grimm and, yes, Bob Johnson.

Riggs played so many partial seasons; that was and will forever be his downfall.

Bucky Walters and Stan Hack are two I like.

+1 and +1. Love them both, and I collect them both. 41 Play Ball Walters and 35 Diamond Stars Hack. Two great cards.

I’ve always thought Larry Doyle doesn’t get enough consideration. He was easily the best second baseman in the National League during his time.

Another guy who’s name isn’t thrown around a lot is Wally Berger. Never going to be a HOFer but what a beast before he got injured. Completely forgotten by time.

Many players from that Era says Hal Chase was the best 1st basement they had ever seen. Babe Ruth chose him over Gehrig (Im sure it had nothing to do with his jealousy of Gehrig). Prince Hal never gets spoken about due to his gambling dealings but from all accounts he was considered the best fielding 1st basemen ever

Paul Hines
 

Paul A. Hines. Outfielder with the Washington Nationals in 1886-1887. 2,133 hits and 57 home runs in 20 MLB seasons. 1884 World Series champion with the Providence Grays. 1878 Triple Crown winner. 2-time (1878 and 1879) batting champion. 1878 NL home run leader and NL RBI leader. Hines debuted with Washington in the National Association in 1872 and played for eight other MLB teams, including the Washington Blue Legs (1873), Washington Nationals (NL) (1886-1887), and, in his final season, the Washington Statesmen (1891). During the first five NL seasons, from 1876 through 1880, Hines had more base hits than any other player, and he retired third to Cap Anson and Jim O'Rourke with 1,884 career hits in the majors. His total of sixteen seasons as a major league team's primary center fielder was not surpassed until Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb in 1925.

Paul Hines was one of the top stars in the early days of baseball and his statistics indicate that he would be a reasonable Hall of Fame candidate. Hines broke in at age 17 in 1872, and thus played his first 8 years in the 1870s, winning the first Triple Crown in baseball history in 1878 and winning the batting championship again in 1879. He ranks well above the average Hall of Famer on the Gray Ink Test and a bit above average on the Black Ink Test. He played 20 years in the major leagues, with an OPS+ that exceeded 140 in eight different seasons.

Why, then, isn't he in the Hall of Fame? It's frequently been charged that the Hall of Fame has stiffed worthy players from the 1870s. The key reason may be that teams in the 1870s played fewer games, and thus Hines did not accumulate 3000 hits or some of the other counting stats that Hall of Fame voters tend to look at. As late as 1883, when Hines was in his 12th major league season, he appeared in only 97 games because his team played only 98. However, when he retired in 1891 with 7,062 lifetime at-bats in the majors, the all-time leader was Cap Anson with only a few more at 7,680.

Another "vote" for Stan Hack.

Played a slightly above average 3rd, 8509 PA for a .394 ob%...stuck around for many years after his playing career was done coaching and managing. He spent 34 years in the game once he hit the bigs in 1932.

His only bad season was 198 PA of his age 22 rookie season.

I like Stan Hack...and not just because he is in two of my favorite sets. If you believe Baseball Reference ratings, he is 23rd, ahead of Collins, White, Kell, Traynor, and Lindstorm (he is the highest ranked prewar third baseman not in the Hall).

Stan Hack certainly should be in Cooperstown. Besides the general absence of third basemen in the Hall of Fame, Hack's stats compare favorably to those of his teammate Billy Herman. Here's one of my favorite unsung should-be Hall of Famers, Lon Warnecke. Here are his lifetime stats, compared to a sure-fire Hall of Famer whose career paralleled his, Lefty Gomez.

Warnecke — 192-121 with a 3.18 ERA
Gomez — 189-102 with a 3.34 ERA

Bob Johnson is always the 1st one I think of when this question comes up. If he was “discovered” just a few years earlier, or by a better team, he’d likely be in. As it is, he might be considered his generations version of Albert Belle…..offensively anyways.

Just not enough years of counting stats.

Maybe, but he is brought up all the time in these types of discussions. I was thinking of guys you don't hear about.

Exactly the kind of guy I was looking for!

Two pitchers from the 1800s, Tony Mullane and Bobby Mathews.

And one more recent, Allie Reynolds.

My vote is for jake daubert played 14 seasons with 2336 hits and .303 lifetime batting avg but died still being a very productive player. Outside of maybe hal chase he was the best 1st baseman in baseball during the deadball era but was considered as a trouble maker based on trying to unionize his fellow player.

I also think Paul Hines should be considered

Johnny Kling
Babydoll Jacobson
Ken Williams

Spottswood has recently been discovered by new home town of Winchester, VA, where he was born and raised, and they now have a field and road named after him.

Nice!

I visit Arlington at least one a year and made sure to find him last year

He’s buried somewhat close to HOFer Jud Wilson


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I like that you named Jacobson and Williams. Add in Jack Tobin and you have the outfield that is vastly underrated because it's never mentioned. Years ago I got 8x10 photos of all three players, then my dad, who has done carpentry since he was a little kid, made this frame for me. He wanted to look like the dugout behind each player, and even threw some sand into the paint to give it that look (doesn't show up well in the photo). Notice the frame matches the dugout behind the players

Ross Barnes. He should be in.

I'll second the Barnes nomination. Unfortunately, he doesn't meet the 10 year requirement, but neither did Joss and they let him in.

Maybe outside of the spirit of the question, but how about Jim Creighton under the "pioneers" flag?

Here's a perspective that showcases tossers in classic prewar card sets.

Old Judge: Jim McCormick

T206: Jack Quinn

Cracker Jack: Nap Rucker

E121 American Caramel: Babe Adams

1933 Goudey: Wes Ferrell (already mentioned, worth mentioning again)

1941 Play Ball: Tommy Bridges


Brian

Bob and Emil Meusel as well as Bob Johnson.

Bob was as big a part of Murderer's Row as Earle Combs, with similar stats, but Combs got in and Bob Meusel didn't. Some say because he wasn't outgoing with the writers.

I’m at Arlington Cemetery a couple times a year also, where is his gravestone?

I’m at Arlington Cemetery a couple times a year also, where is his gravestone?

Definitely worthy of discussion for the Hall of Fame: Bobby Veach, Detroit Tigers

Swiped from online:
As the clean-up hitter on one of the strongest offensive teams of his day, Bobby Veach was one of the truly great RBI men of the late Deadball Era, easily leading the major leagues in runs driven in over the twelve years, 1913 to 1924, that he was a full time player. Veach drove in over 100 runs in a season six times, hit 30 or more doubles eight times and smacked ten or more triples ten years in a row. In all, Veach played for 14 major league seasons and hit .300 or better ten times, finishing with a lifetime .310 batting average.

Veach was also among the best defensive outfielders of his era, regularly ranking among the league leaders in putouts, range factor, and fielding percentage. Despite being one of the most productive hitters in baseball during his years in Detroit, Veach played in the shadows of three Detroit outfielders who won 16 batting titles and were inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame: Cobb in center field and Sam Crawford followed by Harry Heilmann in right field. Detroit's 1915 outfield consisting of Veach, Cobb, and Crawford has been ranked by baseball historian and statistician Bill James as the greatest outfield in history.

In the eight years from 1915 to 1922, Veach had 852 RBIs and 450 extra base hits, more than any other player. The top five in RBI during these eight years:
1 Bobby Veach – 852
2 Ty Cobb – 723
3 Babe Ruth – 635
4 George Sisler – 612
5 Tris Speaker – 585

The top five in extra base hits:
1 Bobby Veach – 450
2 Ruth – 445
3 Speaker – 444
4 Cobb – 418
5 Sisler – 402

Probably more of a what might have been than a real discussion for the Hall, but Bug Holliday is another player lost to time.

From 1889 to 1894 Bug Holliday hit 63 home runs, just two short of Roger Connor in the same time period. However, Bug got an appendectomy in 1895 at 28 years old and was never the same after that, hitting only two more career home runs.

Section 42

I suggest this app to navigate the cemetery

Also, lots of ballplayers in that cemetery including one of two MLB players to be killed in WW2, Elmer Gedeon. I show off some graves here: https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=335674

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Urban Shocker.

In 412 career games:
187-117 career record
59.0 WAR
60th ranked pitcher in MLB history (JAWS)

There are already 84 pitchers in the Hall, but rarely any grumblings for Shocker.

John Donaldson and Cecil Travis.

I'm a big fan of Cecil Travis, but his HoF case is difficult. You would have to include a "cosmic constant" evaluation adjustment factor to address his time and health sacrificed to service of his country. He just didn't get to play enough to support inclusion in the HoF. While dying young may have boosted support among voters for a candidate or two, the voters have avoided players with only half a career, regardless of why they didn't play longer.

There seems to be more support now days (at least in the media) for including players with very high peak performances even if they were not able to extend their career as well as others. Koufax would be an early example of this; Joe Mauer might be an ongoing one. Cecil Travis did not have a peak as "fantastic" as Koufax, or Mauer, while he was a catcher. Travis had one-half of a HoF career, but that is it. While it is reasonable to assume that he would have kept it up if the war had not occurred, it is still just an assumption. Assumptions make tricky selection criteria.

Ross Barnes.

Weyhing, Glasscock, Veach, maaaybe Deacon Phillippe.

100 percent agree.

How about Jimmy Dykes? His career numbers aren’t great but he played 22 seasons collected 2200 hits with a 280 lifetime average and a two time World Series champ. Then he won 1,400 games as a manager.

Wilbert Robinson is in with two pennants and less wins.

Can't lie...bit shocked Bill Dahlen hasn't worked his way into the discussion, yet.

-edit- Nevermind, this thread is about the passed over, not the obvious. Doh.

Yeah I don't disagree on Dahlen but he's definitely one of those guys who comes up a lot.

George "Piano Legs" Gore scored just over one run in every game he played -- he played in about 1300... Not surprisingly he starred on a lot of winning teams during his 14 yr career.
Also stole a lot of bases although the stats for this are ify...
He's sort of an earlier and lesser version of Sliding Billy Hamilton...
--
I think that the only other run per game players (over 1000 games) are Hamilton and Stovey... Barnes is way over a run per game but played just 499 games.

George Mullin 228-196
2.82 ERA
47.2 WAR

He always comes up in these conversations, but I haven’t seen him mentioned yet, so I’ll make the case for Lefty O’Doul. If he had never set foot on a baseball diamond as a player he still warrants a spot for bringing the game to Japan, and for his remarkable record as a coach. Factor in his talents as a major league hitter, and it’s absolutely criminal he hasn’t been inducted yet.

Another guy I’ve always liked is Babe Herman. WAR is not kind to him but over his first seven seasons and about 1,000 games he hit 348 with an OPS+ of 146. That includes his incredible 1930 season were hit 393 with 35 homers and 130 RBIs. He tailed off after his 30th birthday but he still hit 324 over his career and finished with an OPS+ of 141.

If he had finished that 1930 season with a 400 average he may be in today.

Probably a better player than Billy Herman, who is in.

I agree with you.

There are some folks in who shouldn't be. There are others out who ought to be in. Or so it very subjectively seems. I personally agree with a number of these names, and I collect them with the same level of interest as I do the HOF'ers.

Tip O'Neil.

SAllen2556's pitch for Bobby Veach is worth repeating!
 

You convinced me ... now, hopefully, a Veterans Committee of the future will discover these facts. Thanks!

Another vote for Dick Lundy and Oliver Marcelle!

That also goes for Rick and Wes Ferrell.

Some people think the voters for Rick got him confused with his brother Wes. I think Wes probably belongs in the HOF, and Rick does not.

I would agree Wes has a better case. Hell he was a better hitter than Rick and he was a pitcher!

While Veach was a fine player, I have a problem using RBI as a criterion. When the guys in front of you are on base over 40% of the time of COURSE you are going to have a ton of RBI. For me the rest of the numbers are a little short.

Rick Ferrell got in partially with the help of his brother, who talked him up for a book, saying he deserved to be in Cooperstown. He was also the AL leader in games caught, which was starting to creep into the news as Bob Boone approached the all-time record and Carlton Fisk approached his record. Eppa Rixey got HOF support when Warren Spahn started approaching his NL record for wins by a lefty, so sometimes it just paid to be in the news.

That 4.04 career ERA for Wes is what has likely kept him out. People made a huge deal about Jack Morris having a 3.90 ERA and getting in, so imagine what a 4.04 would look like to voters before Morris.

Agreed. Also Dick Redding.

Chad

All very good points. Wes' ERA was high, especially after he was 29 years old, and his career was over a few years later.

But from age 21 through 28 he was one of the best players in the League.

Ferrell's ERA+ for his career is 116 which puts Morris to shame. It was an offensively insane era for most of his career.

Wes Ferrell was also one of the best hitting pitchers of all time. Not quite Ohtani but have a look at his incredible 1935 season. He led the league in wins with 25 and hit 347 with 7 homers 32 RBIs and an OPS+ of 141.

Pete Browning.

Besides his high ERA (but solid ERA+) and failure to reach 200 wins, Wes Ferrell’s temper doesn’t help his case. On multiple occasions, he refused to hand over the ball after his coach came to yank him from the game for pitching poorly. One one such occasion in 1934 when Red Sox manager Bucky Harris came out to relieve him, not only did he refuse to hand over the ball, but when he was finally persuaded to return to the dugout he punched himself in the jaw with his fist and slammed his head against a concrete wall. He had to be forcibly restrained to prevent him from doing further harm to himself. During the 1936 season, Ferrell walked off the field in disgust and refused to continue pitching twice in the span of five days, angered each time by his teammates’ defensive shortcomings. On the second occasion he was fined $1,000 and suspended for several days. Ferrell’s reaction was to threaten to punch the manager, Joe Cronin. (SABR)

But I hope that the attention Ferrell has gotten in the wake of Shohei Ohtani for being one of the best two way players ever will tip the scales in his favor and he’ll eventually get in. His career ERA+ of 116 is better than some other pitchers in the HOF discussion such as Luis Tiant (114) and Hershiser
(112) and as pointed out, is higher thsn a lot of guys already in the HOF.

I'm going to throw another name cy seymour

Lately I have decided I don't really care anymore about who's in, who's not and who should be in. I collect, talk about and display cards for guys like Cecil Travis, Riggs Stephenson and Maury Wills as if they are in. Anymore that's all that matters to me.

I recently nominated a coworker for a personal award, Florida Section American Waterworks Association Operator of the Year. This fellow is like a one man water plant. He trained 5 newly-hired operator trainees. Oversaw their hiring. Completed his master's degree. Received the title of Certified Public Manager. Runs the health and physical fitness programs for the entire utility. What more could he do? He didn't get selected.

It all comes down to subjectivity, opinion and politics. So anymore, who cares? It's meaningless. We treat our man as if he won. He knows how we feel about him. I collect the same way.

He straddles era, but I’m going to throw Dom DiMaggio into the ring. He was probably the best defensive centerfielder of his day (and I include older brother Joe in that assessment). Like so many he was on track for the important counting stats before WWII service interrupted his career. The career totals appear lacking because of it, but I won’t punish a player for serving his country, and think that had he maintained his prewar production over the war years, he’d be in the hall already.

I think the difficulty when it comes to so many of these players is playing the "What If" game, when it comes to the War. Especially when it comes to the borderline guys, like Dom. He was an incredible center fielder, I think the unfortunate part of the equation is that while he was very good, in the non war years, he wasn't good enough. I'm surprised he didn't get in on the veterans committee though, back in the day.

Pre-War players that I think are talked about a lot:
1) Bill Dahlen
2) Jim McCormick
3) Jack Glasscock


Pre-War players that I think are not talked about enough (not in any particular order):
1) Harry Stovey
2) Wes Ferrell
3) Urban Shocker
4) Pete Browning
5) Babe Herman
6) Babe Adams
7) Josh Beckwith (Negro Leagues)
8) Bob Caruthers
9) Sherry Magee
10) Tony Mullane
11) Tommy Bond
12) Charlie Buffington
13 Jack Quinn
14 Bob Johnson
15) Stan Hack
16) Bucky Walters
17) Wilbur Cooper
18) Carl Mays
19) Tommy Bridges
20) Larry Doyle
21) Bobby Veach
22) Gavvy Cravath
23) Jimmy Sheckard
24) George Gore
25) William Bell (Negro Leagues)

and many honorably mentions....

I think a few of the players on your list get enough mention around this forum, anyhow. Stovey is among the most mentioned in my opinion.

Either way, I sure hope a lot of those guys get in! I've been saving many of their autographs for years.

I think Charles's list points out the problem. There are a lot of very good players who were better (at least statistically) than a specific player that is in the Hall.

Wilbur Cooper and Rube Marquard pitched at roughly the same time but Cooper (216-178, 2.89 ERA, 116 ERA+, 93rd ranked starter on Baseball Reference) was by any measure better than Marquard (201-177, 3.08 ERA, 103 ERA+, 252nd ranked starter).

The problem is, Marquard is an easy target because there are literally hundreds of non-HOFers better than Marquard and they're not all getting in. But Marquard pitched in NY, was the “$11,000 lemon", then won 19 games in a row and became a star on pennant-winning teams while Wilbur Cooper was less well-known. And I don't think the VC was doing advanced statistically analysis in 1971 when Marquard got in...it seemed to depend on who was on the committee and if there was some reason a player was still remembered.

So I am all for bringing these players to light and I will even add one I don't think is usually mentioned: Cupid Childs. But in all likelihood very few (if any) of these players will be getting in.

I think the majority of the people on my list probably do not belong in the HOF. I just think they should be in the discussion.

I agree with that as well. The Hall is already watered down enough. I am more of the argument now that the best player not in at his position (e.g., Dahlen) should be in rather than looking for players better than the bad choices (Baines, Haines, etc.).

Another Ohtani prototype that’s pretty much lost to history is Dave Foutz. He collected more than 1200 hits with a career average of 276 and also won 147 games on the mound, including 41 games and an ERA title in 1886.

Needles Bentley
 

"Another Ohtani prototype that’s pretty much lost to history is Dave Foutz."

If we are letting in early Ohtani/Ruth competitors for "all-around" honors:

John "Needles" Bentley. Pitcher with the Washington Senators in 1913-1916. 46 wins and 8 saves in 9 MLB seasons. His most productive season was 1924 with the New York Giants as he posted a 16-5 record with a 3.78 ERA in 188 innings pitched. Was a good hitter with a career OBP of .316 in 616 plate appearances. Gave up World Series winning-ground ball single to McNeely in the 1924 "pebble" game.

In his first two seasons with the Baltimore Orioles of the International League, 1917 and 1919 (he was in the US Army in 1918), with the exception of a lone pitching appearance in his first year, Bentley played exclusively at first base and in the outfield: In 185 games, he posted averages of .333 batting and .510 slugging. Then he really caught fire. From 1920 to 1922, Bentley’s numbers were staggering, as he batted .378 in 439 games, scored 340 runs, drove in 399, and had a slugging average of an astounding .590. In both 1920 (161) and 1921 (120), Bentley led the league in RBIs; in 1921, he won the league Triple Crown, batting .412 (the league’s highest season average in the 20th century), with 24 home runs and 120 RBIs. His 246 hits that season remain the league’s single-season record.

Yet Bentley continued to pitch when needed, and those results, too, were staggering. From 1920 through 1922, Bentley pitched in 56 games and produced a 41-6 record, a winning percentage of .872: in both 1921 (.923) and 1922 (.867), he led the league in that category. In 1920 (2.10) and 1922 (1.73), Bentley also led the league in ERA, and over three seasons his ERA was an astounding 2.07. During those years, by virtue of his performance both at the plate and on the mound, the press bestowed on Bentley the moniker "Babe Ruth of the Minors".

He won 46 games with a below average ERA. He played a total of 62 games in a non-[itcher role and posted an OPS+ also below the league average. Career value: 5.9 WAR.

He is not a candidate whatsoever.

I mentioned Dave Foutz because he had a full major league career as a two way player. I don’t think I’m just throwing anyone’s name around who hit and pitched.

"He is not a candidate whatsoever."

Good point. I was going for "interesting post" more than "winning hand". Assuming you read my post and not just the name of the candidate, I conclude that I missed the mark. I'll try not to make the same mistake again.

And Packs, I apologize for getting you involved. I didn't mean to imply that you were throwing names around, just because I was.

Yes, I read the post, thanks for checking. I even quoted the part of the post where you seem to propose him as a candidate. You quoted Packs Foutz post, a legitimate candidate, and replied

If we are not talking about letting Bentley into the Hall of Fame, what are you talking about letting him into?

The rest of your post is just copied and pasted text from his SABR bio without an attribution.

+1. The HOF has become the Hall of Mediocre.....don't look at who's in already but who deserves to be in because of their abilities.

Was just thinking about Caruthers.