Could Caitlyn Clark compete with D1 men?
 

I am very late to the Caitlyn Clark story but now that I am paying attention... wow! If a single player can prop up a league/WNBA, she may have enough "it" to bring that league to the same level of fandom as she has for college hoops.

It go me wondering - could she be a competitive player on a D1 men's team? Put another way, I she at least better and more talented than the worst player on the worst NCAA tournament team?

Again, I am very late to appreciate her greatness and am looking forward to watching her from this point on - but, could she make a mean's squad?

With her shooting range, I would think it's not impossible even with her major size and weight/strength disadvantage.

Thoughts??

I'm going to guess the answer is no. The size, strength, and speed gap would be significant, and there'd be a learning curve as she adjusted to shooting a full-size basketball.

Over full sized men!

Not even against high school men

It takes nothing at all away from her, but not a chance in the world. It's as much of a fantasy as the notion that Conor McGregor had a chance against Floyd Mayweather. She's not even a very good defender against women. She couldn't possibly cover a man.

Of course not.

Not a shot in hades, probably not even the local JV team.

Serena Williams is the greatest tennis player of all time and lost to a tier 2 unranked college male player. Tennis is one that in theory would be even closer in skill male/female than basketball. Caitlyn is a great player but on a male D1 team would be very ugly and dangerous for her. Size and Strength would be way too much.

This is the correct answer unquestionably.

It also is no knock on her, it is just genetics

She could play in men’s lower college classifications. She can shoot 3’s with the best men. D1, no. D2, D3 absolutely IMO.

I would think more than a few people had similar opinions about Muggsy Bogues, with his 5 foot 3 and 130 pound frame (Caitlin Clark is listed at six feet and 150 pounds).

If you're a world class athlete, there's a spot for you on a team. Do I think Caitlin Clark has the talent of Muggsy Bogues? No, but I think she should be discussed in terms of her talent and not her size. Players smaller than her have had success in the NBA but they had different skill sets and were better players.

This is also not true. The Williams sisters both played one single game each against Karsten Braasch, who was ranked 203rd in the world at the time. They didn't play a complete set and he wasn't an unranked Tier 2 college player.

Billie Jean King beat Bobby Riggs in '73. In straight matches if my memory serves me correctly.
As far as Caitlyn going up against NBA men, she wouldn't stand a chance. It's not a knock on her, just a fact.

Seriously? I just find it hard to imagine that she isn't better than the worst D! men's player...

I remember when everyone was getting on Brian Scalabrine's case for being the worst player in the NBA. He got challenged by a player on Syracuse to a game of one on one and absolutely torched him.

Even the worst player at an elite level is ridiculously good.

You must be Boston local too... that was a great story! And I have no doubt true at the NBA level.

But my question had the bar much lower - is Caitlyn better than any D1 men's player?

I still haven't taken the time to watch her play yet - looking forward to seeing her in tonight's game.

Yep. Same concept with Caitlyn Clark here. Fantastic women’s NCAA player in her own right. Zero percent chance should would make a single D1 roster, much less play competitively with them.

Well, I don't know. I think she's at least as good as some D1 players on active rosters right now. There are a lot of coaches kids on rosters at this level every year and she is a very talented basketball player. She wouldn't be who she is, or anywhere close to it. But I don't think she'd be lost out there against lower end schools.

I don't think she'd ever compete in the NBA or for a roster spot on legacy programs like Kentucky, North Carolina, etc. but they aren’t the only D1 schools. There are over 300 of them.

Less than zero. She couldn't defend anyone, total non starter.

I'm not sure about that; in fact, I doubt it. Bobby Hurley's son played about twenty minutes total spread over 9 games this year for a pretty bad ASU team and he's not even trying out for the team next year. He's a guard and I watched a little of his play--I doubt Caitlyn would score more than once in a game of one-on-one against him, never mind how he could shoot and blow by her when he had the ball.

I'm only saying I could see her on a roster somewhere in Division 1. There's ASU and there's the New Jersey Institute of Technology, which is also Division 1.

Looks like they each lost a set not just a game.

https://www.tennisnow.com/Blogs/NET-...k-to-Back.aspx

Ah, my mistake. I knew they didn't play a complete match.

Maybe on a roster---maybe, if there was a shortage of players or there was some non-athletic reason to have her there. However, I believe the last player on the bench of last-place Podunk U would give the mediocre Bobby Hurley Jr, a better game of one on one than would Caitlyn.

Are you seriously saying you think she could defend against a Division 1 male player? Have you seen her?

I don't think that would be her specialty, no. Do you not think she's an exceptionally talented basketball player?

Of course. A phenomenal woman player. That doesn't make her a man. Not a sexist remark in any way, just fact. She doesn't have the strength or speed to play against skilled men at the D1 level. She'd be a huge liability on defense, and would not get open enough on offense to score many points at all.

I don't disagree. She's not "the one". I don't think she'd be anything if she did make a Division 1 roster as a bench player. But I could see it happening.

Leilani Armenta kicked for Division 1 Jackson State last year. A lot of people might not have thought a woman would score a point in a Division 1 football game either.

Mugsy was and probably still is much stronger than Catlyn Clark would ever be...again, not a knock at her. Not just apples and oranges, but Adams apples.

Fun to watch though...the Womens' game has improved by leaps and bounds.

Not playing defense is not as disqualifying as it used to be. As far as I can tell, Trae Young hasn't guarded anyone since he joined the NBA and he's still having a good career.

I remember the USWMT soccer team played a high school team maybe 15 years ago. The HS team was I think a select team for the local MLS team (Chicago Fire Juniors?). That HS team's players would have mostly played Division II. The boys won, but the women were competitive, so I think some of the women could have played NCAA men's soccer.

Clark would need to change her game, but I think she could earn a roster spot and some playing time on a college men's team.

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Soccer
 

The US women’s national soccer team lost an exhibition game to an Under 15 year old boys team representing just the Dallas area 5-2. Quote was they were “ bigger, stronger, faster” .

Of course's he's guarding people. If you gave an NBA team a 5-4 advantage on offense at that talent level they would win every game.

This is an apt comparison. Soccer is a contact sport in a way that is analogous, if not similar to basketball, and the USWNT were arguably the best women's soccer team in the world. That they lost badly to a city-wide team of 15 year olds highlights the strength and speed differences between the sexes.

There is less space on a basketball court relative to a soccer pitch, so quickness and leaping ability in basketball is more important than pure straight line speed, and contact takes place more frequently and is harder to shake. These factors probably accentuate the female disadvantage even more in basketball.

I would take the argument further and say that Caitlyn Clark would struggle 1v1 against the starting, varsity boys shooting guard at any American public high school with an enrollment of more than 1500.

And even then I am guessing those 15 year olds instinctively were less physical in that game than they would have been with their male contemporaries. I played a lot of basketball in the day in countless venues and configurations, and on occasion women would find their way into a game (some were even accomplished players) and no self-respecting guy is going to be rough on a woman in that setting.

I'll never understand this obsession with women being a part of men's sports, we fought for 50 years so women could have their own space, title 9 anyone? Women aren't men and men aren't women.
The bigger concern is biological men invading women's spaces now, imho.

Ironic, indeed. Back in the day, no self respecting man would masquerade as a woman to play women's sports. But, alas, these are different times.

"Girls will be boys and boys will be girls, it's a mixed up mumbled up shook up world."

Excellent Kinks knowledge Mr Spaeth.

1972 maybe? It was so outrageous for its time. "Well I'm not dumb but I can't understand why she walked like a woman but talked like a man." LOL and they played it too.

Ehhhh. He does come down the court with the rest of the team but I have never seen him without help deter an opponent from taking a direct path to the basket. On occasion he will wave his arms a bit, maybe that's what you are thinking of.

He also led the league in turnovers two years in a row. But nobody would say Trae Young isn't a great player. Which is why I agree that a knock on someone's defense isn't a real road block. There are so many other things that can be discussed in place of it.

I didn't realize there is an obsession with that. I think here we are just having a goofy conversation about how good Clark is, similar to how people liked to wonder whether the Kentucky basketball teams could have beaten the Sixers.

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https://www.si.com/nba/hawks/news/qu...youngs-defense

Comparing a weak defender (conceded, at least so far) to a woman trying to defend a man is not IMO a useful analogy.

And vice versa I would think. I don't think you get accolades for putting a hip into a 14 year old boy.

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Because, while Trae is small and weak, he's not slow?

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I don't know why so much is made of that scrimmage. It wasn't played under any real game condition at all and it was merely a practice for the women's team in anticipation of playing an international friendly, which I'm sure is where the effort went.

This is like suggesting the Yankees loss to the Diablos Rojos on Sunday meant anything.

The physical differences between him and other NBA players do not even begin to compare to the relevant physical differences between Clark and any male player. I can't believe we're even having this discussion.

Yeah I am sure the women lost because they toned down their game.

I can. When human biology conflicts with ideology or what one would like to be true, we know which one gets tossed aside :D.

There's no way to know for sure. So much of a team sport depends on the team. I do think it would be very challenging.

But, while figuring out a reply, I looked up something.

My college was... Small. I wouldn't think we were D anything.
Our basketball team played Bridgeport while Manute Bol was there. And lost but didn't get blown out.
I was very surprised to learn Bridgeport is D2.

The reason I looked?
I would play occasionally when some guys that played in the parking lot around lunchtime would ask.
My basketball skills can be described as somewhere between "Awful" and "F_ atrocious"
I did not make my HS team when I tried out.
I played one season of rec league, and my stat "line" for 0for I think 2, two fouls committed (One I still disagree with ) and led the league in shots hitting the beams in the low ceiling 2! Why they put the little kids up in the real gym and the high school age kids in the little kid gym downstairs.... anyway, those two shots might have missed anyway, although I was ok from what would now be 3 pt distance.

I was obviously only filling a space until someone got back from class, but oddly, I never felt seriously outclassed.
I found out that bunch of guys was our basketball team - and that we even had a team- when they were talking in the lunch line about playing against Bol.

The game had changed a lot, and my school got absorbed into the CT community college system,

Do I think an excellent female Player might make the roster on a D1 team.
I'm not sure. The right player on the right team with the right coach.... maybe. Theres certainly stuff that they would have to game plan around. And it might not work out. But I don't think I could rule it out completely.

If she can make a D1 team she should try and make a D1 team. There are no rules against women trying out for a Men's team and if they think they can hang they should try. The fact that we don't have women on these men's teams outside a few marketing examples tells you what you need to know.

In terms of what, Peter? If we are not talking about size, strength or speed, what is your criteria?

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She has a free ride at Iowa playing women's basketball and really has nothing to prove to anyone. This is a theoretical discussion only.

She is making millions in NIL money. She will take a pay cut not to come back for another year.

I meant in terms of her having any interest in actually trying out for a men's D1 team.

Classic movie

I think Clark's career is in a much better place right now than if she was sitting on the bench for Northern Iowa's men's team, don't you? Just because a top woman player could try out for a men's team, it would probably not make sense for them to do it.

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It's like asking why an undefeated middle weight wouldn't just bulk up and fight in the heavyweight division. Because there would be little incentive to do so and you already dominate your niche. That's why.

Not to mention her bank account. She makes millions a year now as a woman star. I don't think we can infer anything from the fact she hasn't tried to make a men's team.

Pat Summitt
 

Pat Summitt teams used to practice against men. No man that had played over D3 level and no one over 6'2" was eligible. Also anyone being "too physical" was immediately off the practice team. Clark is a great player that would not play on a D1 men's team at all.

UConn same thing, they would recruit pick up players from the school gym for scrimmages.

She’s probably a better shooter than 1/2 the players in D1 men’s basketball, right? In theory, no way she has value for a team for drawn up plays to get her open after timeouts? End of game?

Its going to faciinating to see if she can have an impact on the WNBA anywhere near what she has done for women’s college basketball 🤞🫡

There is no chance IMO a woman with her build would stand up to the physicality of the men's game. It's fantasy.

We simply don't know how she would shoot with a men's basketball. They're not the same size. And I think she'd have considerable difficulty getting open and elevating shots as a post-timeout substitution, where everyone knows the gameplan.

You are either an elite athlete or not. These NBA players are all pretty small and if you just saw their height and weight, I'm not sure you'd think they were destined for the NBA either:

Terquavion Smith: 6'4 160 pounds
Jacob Gilyard: 5'9 160 pounds
Isaiah Joe: 6'3 165 pounds

This is not to suggest Caitlin Clark is, just that she's really not that much smaller than players in the NBA right now.

This. And to suggest otherwise means you haven't seen both a mens game and a womens game live/up close.

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Again, women are different from men. They just are. It's not height or weight.

Yeah, but people are still people too and people tend to be individuals, which is my point. It would very easy to say Jacob Gilyard is 5'9 and 160 pounds. He's not big enough to play in the NBA.

Except Jacob Gilyard is an individual person with exceptional talent.

Agreed but that's not relevant to the topic. At all. We are not comparing people in the same category we are comparing people in completely different categories -- women players and men. It so reminds me of MacGregor and Mayweather, we had guys here making the same absurd arguments.

It is because many people might say WOMEN aren't strong enough to compete with men in the NBA. But really we're just talking about one person. I'm just looking to keep the conversation focused is all.

I don't follow the logic. The fact that she is a woman is the source of the characteristics which make her unable to compete with men.

My tiny baby brother, who's never read a book,
Knows one sex from the other,
All he had to do was look,

I don't follow your logic. This whole time you've said two things: she isn't physically capable of competing on a men's team and she can't defend. I don't think either of those things are dependent on her gender. I'm a man and I can't compete on a men's team either.

The point is this: there is no absolute. If you follow your logic, then you'd have to accept there will never be a woman physically gifted enough to play with men. I don't think that's anymore true than there will never be an NBA player who's 5'3. It will always come down to the individual. So, why not discuss people as individuals?

By the way, seems like we may all be somewhat in the same "vintage" to recall players who were NOT the biggest, were NOT the fastest but WERE smarter, better decision makers, playmakers, etc.

Diff sports, I know, no one talks about physical gifts first when they discuss the greatness of Brady, Bird or Gretzky.

Never say never, boys.

I'm one of those people who would love to see a woman compete with men at the D1 level in any major sport.

Let's look at the data. Aside from the USWNT scrimmage against the Dallas U15 team and some other one off examples, females in contact sports tend to avoid mens and boys teams. This, in and of itself, is relevant evidence.

Anyway, I looked at the below, which is from Duke Law School, comparing athletic performance between men and women.

https://law.duke.edu/sports/sex-spor...ic-performance

Though the article is slightly dated (as it does not include the most recent men's world records by Usain Bolt, Wayne van Niekirk, and David Rudisha in the 100, 200, 400 and 800m), the points made are very clear.

To the extent that explosiveness and quickness are key athletic attributes in basketball, you can draw inferences from the comparisons between elite (Olympic level) women and BOYS (forget the men) in the 100m, long jump, and high jump. Basically, the world record holding women do not compare that favourably with U18 boys.

Further, it seems that it is really hard to make a D1 mens basketball program. See the below:

https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2015/3/2...athletics.aspx

To summarize, the NCAA estimates that only the top 1% of high school boys basketball players plays in D1.

When I read this and I look at Caitlyn Clark's game, I struggle to see her even making the starting line up on any top 10 boys high school team in any state in America.

That there could be some fringe example does not negate the general proposition. Cheetahs are faster than squirrels. That there might be some extreme counterexample does not mean we should just consider every animal individually. I can't believe I have to explain this. Political correctness is fine but come on.

I don't think you're explaining anything. I'm just glad Muggsy Bogues and Spud Webb and a million other players never listened to detractors. I'm sure they heard YOU CAN'T way before they ever heard you can.

But they did.

Yes but that has nothing to do with this topic. We are talking about the physiological differences, in general, between women and men as they relate to basketball. Not about the difference between a typical elite NBA player and a short elite NBA player.

For what it is worth, I'd support Caitlyn Clark trying out for the CBA or a foreign men's pro league, now that her NCAA eligibility is probably over (I could be wrong here). Or perhaps let her play with the Iowa men next year for part of the season.

But would the results help the women's game? Even Lisa Leslie has deftly avoided the topic of women playing against men.

She has one more year and is foregoing it and the millions she would earn to go WNBA.