More interest in raw cards in 2024 - Observations
 

In the last month or two, I have seen many, many posts (here and online) about collectors and dealers wanting to buy vintage raw cards and only raw cards.

Similarly, at the card shows that I went to this year, vintage raw cards seemed to be more in demand than graded cards.

Anyone else seeing a resurgence in raw cards this year? Of course, AHs will continue to have graded cards, but I am talking in other areas.

Graded cards are for people who care about money, for some sense of protection or insurance. Obviously, expensive as some of these cards are, that's a given.

I'm not collecting cards or memorabilia or anything else for some sort of investment purposes, or to bequeath to anyone when I croak. I don't care about the grade, and I don't want the slabs. I don't want to know if my cards are trimmed, or creased in some way I can't see, or even if they're fake. I don't believe they are, and that's all I care about. And, most importantly, I can afford raw cards.

I suspect a decent amount of raw card buying is from buyers who are trying to find value buys with the intention of submitting the cards for grading in the hopes of increasing the resale value.

True collectors (whatever that means) aside, I see the 'turn and flip' mindset as a big factor in making people target unslabbed cards. Profit, profit, profit.

582. Tacticalculus
Quickly crunching the numbers to determine if the price of an ungraded card is a good deal, based on what its value would be if it came back from a TPG at the grade it ‘unquestionably deserves.’

This. One guy spent nearly an hour at my table last weekend methodically working through a stack of cards with a lighted loupe. When he finally purchased a few I said "good luck on the 10's".

With all the amazing how-to videos out there showing how to get better grades it makes sense. Plus the real money isn't in buying/selling PSA graded cards. The real money is getting cards into high(er) graded PSA slabs.

This. Todays raw gems...become tomorrow's high grade altered gold.

I'm with you.. I am a collector and do not sell..

Buying raw is one of the only economical options in the hobby today. I kinda have 2 collections...a graded one...and a raw one.

You should have increased your price on them and thanked him for grading them for you.

My Barry Larkin collection is for my enjoyment only. Nobody who visits me will ever care about a PSA 10, let alone do they even care about Barry Larkin. I do not have a card collecting friend. So for whom do I need to buy a graded 10 for if I can't show it off? Its better than to have a nice raw copy for my personal checklist and to move on.

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I think my card qualifies as a graded card. Then again, the fancy 'F' might instead mean I need to repeat the 'Raw Card Identification' class.

Attachment 611186

Brian

Seems like a confluence of factors at play here.

Certainly the relative affordability of raw is a major factor. As others have noted, opportunism can also be a factor, with a plan to flip the raw pieces into highly graded slabs and turn a quick profit.

The OP mentioned dealers clamoring for raw. My sense is that when it comes to dealers, there’s a better opportunity to acquire raw cards at a reasonable price, and retail them with enough margin to continue to stay in business. With graded cards, the market is a bit different, simply because that market tends to operate more efficiently in many ways, making it a bit more difficult for a dealer to really have a solid margin short of resorting to museum pricing.

Finally, the OP mentioned shows. For buyers, this provides an opportunity to personally inspect the merchandise prior to buying, just to evaluate whether it’s legit and unaltered (at least in the opinion of the buyer), and whether the condition meets the buyer’s needs. Online sales do not afford this same luxury for personal inspection. As we have seen recently, even online AH scans don’t always convey every defect.

Of course, you also have some substantial portion of our world that just plain prefers raw. Some of that may be due to nostalgia, economics, disillusionment with the TPGs, aesthetics, weight, or even confidence in our abilities to perform our own evaluation without assistance from some assumedly undertrained grader wearing green eye shades in far off places.

As the WSJ headline would say, Raw is having a moment!

Dealers will only deal if they get them cheap. That includes anything in the 50s through 75. Never had them offer value even in a trade. And they are in the business to make money. I get it. Even traders seem to approach it the same way. I have tons from the 50's and 60's many quite nice. Not sure what I can do with them though. Though I do have one grandson who actually seems to have a collector's attitude, but even he talks regularly about value. Sigh!

raw versus graded
 

I've heard the next generation remark if it not graded something is wrong with the card--I assume he was referring to modern--I know my nephews son ( 2 nd generation will not buy ungraded cards) If selling the grade can help with negotiation, and with no returns--'

Raw for price, collecting or submitting--graded for collecting, selling, help establish a value.

yes...the younger "collectors" are more of the mindset that if it's not graded there's something wrong with it...imo because they are not knowledgable to ascertain legitimacy themselves...they believe PSA is GOD!

Glad to buy raw from reputable dealers, but graded can be fine too. Main thing is it's a card I like at a price I can afford.

I have not submitted anything for grading, and don't really have any interest in that. I plan to keep my cards a long time. Why have them graded now, if the next big thing comes along in a few years. Perhaps AI becomes a new standard. The major graders probably aren't going anywhere, but at the very least flips/cases change, and there are perceptions of those that can affect values on the market when it finally is time to sell.

I'm a little bit of a purist, so I'd love to take a stand and say I'm only buying raw cards. Realistically, though, with having to buy most of my cards from a distance without being able to view in person, I prefer to buy graded.

As one who only collects pure, "raw" cards, I will buy an occasional entombed and opined upon one only to crack it out if the price is right.
A problem I see at shows and ebay is that dealers are now charging graded prices for really nice ungraded cards. They assume the person is buying it to grade and flip it. Just another reason I detest what the "hobby" is becoming. But I can't stop collecting ha.

My assumption has been that raw cards will sell at a discount because at TPG hasn't blessed/anointed it. If the card is in really nice shape and not entombed then the thought is people might assume the card will not pass a TPG review and receive a nice numerical grade, rather than the dreaded AUTH or ALT or whatever it is people really try to avoid.

Is the climate towards raw cards warming up and now they are becoming valued at a perceived value based on what the seller believes the card may grade? Add to that, are people, now, paying the price for raw cards at the perceived possible grade it might receive from a TPG?

IF the answer to the above two questions is "yes", then the sellers have the buyers exactly where they want them.

The business end of this hobby always has been and always will be about money. Let's not kid ourselves.

Many collectors moved to raw cards during the backlog and stayed there in response to the high cost of grading. It was different when there were low cost specials. Sure, I would drop eight bucks plus shipping to get a bunch of $200-ish vintage cards slabbed. 4% was reasonable. But at $18.99 per card now (9.5%), not so much. It just eats up too much of the margin, especially when online sales costs are factored in.

I’m a “mid grade” vintage collector so I almost never buy graded cards. It just doesn’t make much sense since the financial incentives for cards in high grade don’t exist for us guys collecting “presentable looking cards in the vg to vg-ex range”, so why bother?

Plus I hate the way cards look in PSA or SCG holders, its like they permanently afixed a label for prescription medication onto the top of your card and whenever you look at your card you also have to look at that. Raw cards are just a million times more attractive to behold. And flip through. And display. And put into binder pages. And take them out of binder pages whenever you feel like.

Of course if my budget was such that I was spending thousands of dollars on individual cards I’d probably be singing a different tune, but I’m quite happy with my raw cards…..

+1

I like "One-Touch" Holders a lot more than slabs with those bar-coded "prescriptions" permanently affixed to the top. Aside from the randomly assigned number grades, the flips contrast with the vintage beauty of the card itself (and serve to sterilize the overall appearance).

That said, I really wish they'd come out with a One-Touch holder made to fit 33-34 Goudey, Diamond Stars, Play Ball, and other unique sizes that are missing. I keep waiting, but to no avail. :mad:

There are some by ProMold.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...91001cee25.jpg

I collect mostly raw, and I don't see any increase in the number of raw cards at the shows I attend. The prices of raw cards online have gone up, at least for the ones I collect, so either there are less raw cards available or more collectors chasing them.

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raw increase?
 

Hmm...Raw still vastly outnumbers slabbed, so by pure numbers raw will
win the day. Aside from purists who pull out a crucifix upon seeing a slabbed
card, I agree that many folks shop raw in the hope of soon getting it slabbed.

There was a comment above that graded cards are "only for people who
care about money". I find that strange, as it's an absolute and thus incorrect
from the start. I'll also point out that people who buy raw (includes me) also
"care about money". It's just an odd remark. I've collected for 4+ decades,
and enjoy it whether I'm buying raw or slabbed.

Trent King

I'm sure we're all thinking it...

If you don't care about some sort of future value, why then have them graded? Only other reason is you worry about authenticity. As stated, I don't care about that. I don't believe mine are fake, but if they are, no one except me is ever going to care. I've stated this on this forum until I'm blue in the face - I am not an investor. I care only about having the cards I want as a collector or hobbyist. Look at several responses here. I'm not the only one. Everyone I know and associate with in this hobby deals only with raw cards, and look at graded cards as, to us, unnecessarily expensive and not our bag. I don't need or want plastic encased cards. To me, that's no hobby. Your situation is obviously somehow different.

Raw
 

James- “everyone” you know and associate with deals in raw? Okay. The thing is, since you only deal with raw cards, you still “care about money”- you care about spending less (apparently). I’ve got plenty of raw cards that hold memories for me, and fewer slabbed that likewise hold memory. Today I bought a PSA 5 1970 Topps Bob Gibson for the whopping sum of $25. I didn’t do it because I think it’s value will go through the roof, but rather because it’s a gorgeous card of a great player. The notion of knowing “everyone’s” motivations is a bit…ambitious, isn’t it? Trent King

I collect baseball cards. IF they come in plastic, fine. If they don't, fine.

I believe it is all about the group scan. Folks have realized that the scanning process is so much nicer and less time consuming when scanning raw cards. Heck, you can bunch up cards close together without all the hassle of endless cropping. And not having to buy an extra pricey fancy-dancy scanner capable of creating good graded card group scans is a bonus as well.

In fact, it is the only reason I collect cards anymore. Ungraded cards present me with the endless one and done group scan opportunities that only the un-slabbed can offer.

I have included an example raw card group scan to offer a visual of the benefits available for those seeking a simplified collecting life through scanning. Also this scan highlights just how desirable beat up raw cards can appear with just such a slap-it-on-a-scanner mentality. I imagine its laser-like intensity is practically burning holes into your collective retinas as you experience it.


Brian

When will you people learn?

There are only two ways to collect:

My way, and

The wrong way.

There is a third option: My wrong way


Brian

When did grading start ? I first started collecting cards in 1957 and have been at it with a few interruptions since. I collect all Topps (48-2023), Bowman ( 48-55) and Fleer (1923 and 1959-2007) sets. Much or most accumulated before 1990. And I have no idea why I keep doing it at this stage in life. I have thought about selling but my wife says it would give me too much free time around the house

If the internet is to be believed, then July 1991 was when PSA started grading.

Trent, here's the thing. All my cards are raw. I like being able to hold them from time to time. I've had a few graded cards, encased in slabs. I didn't care for that, so I cracked them out. I have made a number of trades, both here where I live, in person, and on this net54 forum. All raw cards; Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Koufax and many others that would potentially grade and thus be worth quite a bit to those of us who are less well-heeled. The collectors I know around here are just like me. They desire only raw cards. I have one friend who has an entire 2 car garage full of highly organized cards including vintage and pre-war, floor to ceiling, all raw. The one person on this forum that I personally truly miss is Ted Z. I know he had graded cards, but he also had many raw, and he understood why someone would want them that way. I don't concern myself with value, or investment, or bequeathing them to someone. My wife and daughter feel the same. We're not looking to pay off the mortgage via baseball cards. The OP forwarded a question about raw, and I felt compelled to throw in my 2 worthless cents because, frankly, the graded aficionados here very clearly outnumber the raw. It's just how it is. I don't begrudge anyone's reasons for wanting their cards graded. Unlike the posters above who don't get it, it's not my way or the highway. It's just not my thing.

I don't really do any buying or selling in person. I figure most collectors would prefer graded if buying online and don't really care if buying in person (apart from grades of 9 or higher).

Yes, the 1970 Bob Gibson card is a beauty. The colors just pop and can look dripping wet with a nice copy.

Board purchase. A few years ago.

Attachment 611435

Looks like the back of that Obak failed the Raw Card Identification course as well. What would F. Scott Fitzgerald think?

Brian

Most of my favorite buys have been raw cards

Easy to appreciate them more when you can put your hands on them and get a feel for the card

That being said, I do love to grade for protection, authenticity, and to make it easier to pass along should something happen to me.

Bought my first Clemente raw last year and Kaline this year at the Dallas show. Thrilled to pick them up.

Bottom line, Any card is a great card!

Raw cards are making a comeback!

You need to ask "The Great Gatsby" if he collects raw or slabbed.

I refuse to let my collection consist of more plastic than cardboard.

How do you look at your collection?
 

Aside from the aesthetics, cost, and many of the points James has made at length, there is an important practical factor that greatly favors collecting raw: viewing and reviewing one’s collection.

I can’t overstate what a pleasure it is to flip through my binder of T206’s whenever I want. I have about 850 in one book, probably weighs 5-10 pounds, and it’s portable; I can take it with me. How many pounds would 850 slabs weigh? And they’d fill up a trunk. How do you guys look at your collections? I have a few dozen slabs, including some of the most expensive ones. I don’t break them out anymore because of cost, but I hardly ever look at them.

And while cost is a primary practical factor for me, I like to be able to touch a card, to get a sense of that past.

One other point: It would seem to me that the pool of ungraded cards is ever decreasing; i.e., more of them are getting slabbed every day than are getting broken out. I would say it’s harder today to collect decent condition ungraded cards than when I started out. Food for thought here.

Raw cards
 

I see the thread has been resurrected, which is cool. Someone above
stated that raw cards are making a comeback. Truthfully, they never left
the hobby. The vast majority of existing cards are raw. There are plenty of raw
even at shows where slabs tend to draw more eyes than normal. I really enjoy
picking up a desirable raw card as a "want" or a "need". It's all fun:)

Trent King

The area where I live, Naples-Fort Myers-Cape Coral-Punta Gorda-Port Charlotte, everyone I trade with and associate with are raw cards people. There is a huge flea market here, Flea Masters, and there are a couple of snow birds who sell cards including vintage. They have some graded, but mainly raw. A couple of shops sell cards including some vintage, and they are all graded and in my view, wildly over-priced. Since the same cards are always there, I assume that to be the case. Finally, there is one consignment antique mall with 2 card sellers. One has an extensive collection of 1950s Topps and Bowman, but he wants mint price for beaters. The other has similar, but with realistic prices. I obtained a number of the 1962 Topps I needed for my low-grade complete set from him, including Rookie Parade Uecker, for something like $5. The only place that graded cards rule in my world is here on net54. I don't go to shows anymore; too far away. One of my friends here has an entire garage full of raw cards, climate controlled, professionally stored and inventoried.

Have been thinking about this as well. I'm starting to (slowly and cost-consciously) go after raw tobacco and candy cards almost exclusively. Main reason being, I've seen posts on net54 and on social media of binder-based collections where the cards can be viewed and handled, they were amazing, and I was envious. I'm buying raw cards with zero intent of ever putting them in slabs.

Really good point Doug...with all of the hype around grading pre-war cards for profit, I've also wondered if the supply of raw T206s, etc., is going to decrease noticeably. This must surely be happening, to what extent I don't know.

My only *minor* hesitation with buying raw T206 is that I don't have confidence in my own abilities to spot a convincing fake.

98% of the cards I have are raw. Of course this includes my run of 1980s Topps sets. In terms of value, it's about 50/50 between raw and graded.

I do have some expensive cards in one-touch holders, but at a certain price level, I feel better if they are slabbed.

I like the idea of having your cards in binders so you can flip through them, and that would be fine for my lower grade sets, like my 52T. Even then, though, I would want to keep the key cards slabbed, or holdered.

For my higher graded sets, I don't trust myself arranging and rearranging them in binders. It's too easy to scrape or ding a card in the process. Those cards stay in their card savers or slabs.

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I probably have a smaller collection than most, but it’s definitely possible to enjoy slabbed cards.

Wow! Is that to keep you motivated on the treadmill?

“Strange…those beautiful Mays cards don’t seem to be getting any closer. Maybe if I walk faster…”

Not quite the same, but I do find that I need something to distract me from the monotony of the treadmill. Between the cardboard and a 75 in big screen, I can usually stay distracted.

Are those Canadian Post Cereal panels above the door? If so, which ones?

:confused:

There's price comps for slabbed cards so what is the price structure for raw cards? It's understood, one persons Ex-Mt is someone else's NRMT and one persons VG is another's F-G. Using common sense and assuming a card would grade a 6, what is the price difference between a 52T Mantle raw (in Ex-Mt) shape compared to a graded 6 card? Probably a stupid question because anybody with an Ex-Mt Mantle wouldn't leave money on the table and sell it raw. Ok, how about a 1960 Topps Frank Robinson graded vs slabbed (assume Ex-Mt condition)?

I wouldn't mind buying raw cards but I hate it when dealers say "it would grade a 5" and then quote a price for a PSA5 slabbed card. And I'm guessing I'm not the only person annoyed at dealers like that.

Bumping this over to page 2...the state of cards in SW Fla. There's a lot of big money in these parts, and some of these "beautiful people" have cards. I've met them and traded with them on occasion.

The middle one is Canadian. The rest aren’t foreign but were made right here in the good old US of A.

I really like the 1962 ones but I'm guessing that it's the presence of Willie Mays that prompted you to acquire those specific panels.

Not damaging cards—
 

Not damaging cards when inserting into or taking out of a pocket page is of paramount importance.
What I do for my T206’s is halve a penny sleeve vertically, which will hold two separate cards, and insert a card into the half sleeve. Then I use a six inch flexible plastic ruler (like the kind they might give you in math class that you can put in your shirt pocket), inserted between the back of the card and the sleeve, to push the sleeve down into the pocket.
To take it out, simply pull out the plastic sleeve.

You can do this with any size card/pocket-page. I hardly find it necessary for most other sizes, but you can’t go wrong protecting a valuable card.

I’ll post a scan of a page to show you what it looks like when I get a chance.

All I see happening is this. Simply substitute your Willie Mays collectibles for the weights... :D:eek::D


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Yep. Some of us are player collectors, which I hear are the least terrible variety for the hobby.

Well....

:(

Who cares what the dealer of raw cards says... simply move on if you disagree with his assessment. Just use your own judgment on raw cards. That's the beauty of collecting, and it's not even difficult. You don't need some random overworked minimum wage stranger judging your cards.

And as far as comps go, what are you even comparing? Yesterday's 7 is today's 5. In addition to today's stricter grading standards, there is no consistency from grader to grader, rendering the comps meaningless.

That's a very aesthetically pleasing display. What lighting and/or specialized glass do you use to prevent (or at least minimize) fading?

I've contemplated displaying some cards in my home office. I don't want to damage them by doing this, though. The room has one small window and there's a curtain, so direct sunlight wouldn't be an issue. However, the overhead light is on for roughly half the day.

A few things:

I live in Oregon, just outside of Portland, where the sun doesn’t shine for most of the year.

The way this room and the windows are oriented relative to the direction the sun rises and sets, the direct sunlight can’t actually reach the cases.

This room doesn’t get a lot of use, so the overhead lights are not on much. Maybe 1 hour per day on average. I also use LEDs, which I hear are less damaging that way.

The windows all have shades, and I almost always have them closed.

I added UV blocking film to all of the windows in the room.

I added UV blocking film to the display case windows.

I actually added UV blocking film to the larger slabs that are outside of the cases. I guess I won’t be able to sell them on eBay now, as the AG program would probably reject them, but maybe I can disclose that they have film on them, and they’ll be okay.

I installed foam board coverings on each case to block the light. So every time I go for a workout, I spend 30 seconds to uncover them all, and then cover them back up when I’m done.

I figure between all of these methods, I should probably be pretty okay.

Thank you for the detailed breakdown of the steps you’ve taken. It’s good to hear from someone who balances preservation and a visually appealing display.

Hey Trent!
When I said raw cards are making a comeback, I meant raw card collectors are making a comeback! (You are right, raw cards never left, but it does seem like more people are going back to collecting raw cards vs graded cards) There will always be a market for graded cards in out hobby but I think more people are going back to collecting for the pure old school joy of collecting.

As a raw collector, this is what aggravates me the most. Many dealers now try to sell their really nice conditioned raw ones for graded comps or more.
That has forced me to buy graded and bust them out.
Chris

I just sneer at dealers who price their raw cards at those of "equivalent" slabbed cards and spend my money elsewhere. One of the reasons why I've stayed with collecting raw cards is that I'm not willing to pay the premium slabbed cards fetch.

I'm still trying to figure out what board members believe is a fair discount rate for ungraded cards (when compared to a comparable slabbed card). If a graded card value comp is $500, then what's a board member willing to pay for a card that appears to be in that condition (but not slabbed)?

What do you say when a dealer says "that's what a graded card would go for"?

My response is (nicely), then perhaps you should get it graded and sell it at that price. To which some dealers cop an attitude and others figure it's time to negotiate.

$5 for a 1962 Topps Uecker Rookie Parade? Was that a recent purchase?

"Well I'm not willing to pay the premium for graded cards. I buy only lower priced raw cards."

;)

.

There is no standard discounted amount that raw cards sell for in comparison to graded cards. They're worth just as much outside the slab as they are inside. The amount a buyer is willing to pay is more a function of how confident they are in their ability to predict what it would grade if submitted. If I'm looking at a card that I am very confident will grade a 6, then I'll pay full comps of a 6 to acquire that card. Especially if it's difficult to find otherwise. But that's based on my assessment of the card, not someone else's. If the seller says it's NM-MT and wants PSA 8 pricing for it, then I'm not a buyer obviously. But it works the other way too. If the seller lists it as VGEX but I'm confident it'll grade as a 5, then again, I'll bid as if it's in a 5 holder already. But I'm extremely confident in my ability to grade cards accurately. If you're not confident in your ability to grade cards then you shouldn't be buying them raw to begin with.

I have no strong preference. I think in theory the concern for fakes is higher once you get into pre-WWII cards given their simplicity, so I understand "authenticating," but at the same time, it's not like I'm buying $100K cards here. No one is forging a torn-to-shreds Orval Overall.

I think people get obsessed with the grade, too, and there's probably a market inefficiency there. Compare a random N172 graded a 1 vs one that's graded a 4, and I feel like fairly often the 1 looks as good or better, but a lot of people are just bidding just based on a grade.

Auction houses I think are pretty much exclusively graded cards now, so this probably skews what I've added recently, but I'm not in a rush to grade anything I have that's raw.

I will say... I don't understand grading modern cards at all. It's got to be, what, 90%+ 8s or 9s? And magically all the hyped 1/1s get 10s. To me, card grading is mostly card authenticity, and that's just not needed for something like the Skenes debut patch.

I miss the days of raw cards being the majority at shows to be honest. I enjoy going through stacks of raw at the old time dealers still to this day bulding out my sets.

Yes! So do I.

:)

Grading with modern is really just a mechanism for culling back the insane print runs into 10s and not 10s.

What a game!
.

Yes! Exactly. It's like I have whole sets of junk wax cards that I bought for $10. Wouldn't it be great to go through the 700 cards to find one that's worth $10 and throw the other 699 out.

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For some sets, you can. I bought a large collection of junk wax sets, ended uo with maybe 100 cards from it. 1990 Score, for example, the Bo Jackson BB/FB card is worth as much as the rest of the set. Pull the Jacksons and a few of the rookies (Thomas, Schilling, Sanders, etc.) and big stars (Griffey, Ryan, Bonds, etc.) and junk the rest.