Notes from a former card Grader/Authenticator
 

I recently ended my employment as a grader with CGC grading. While with them I worked primarily in the eBay authentication, but also did some grading when time permitted. I have seen some myths and assumptions consistently prior to my employment and even more so while employed. I am still under a NDA so I can't give specifics, but I did want to dispel some of these wrong ideas I saw circulating.

Myth 1: "Graders are minimum wage random people off the street"
Well I would hope that the fact that I am now outing myself as a grader, you may see that we aren't "random people off the street". There wasn't a single person that graded/authenticated cards that wasn't a collector in some way or another. A lot of us are incognito on social media and at card shows because we want to avoid conflicts of interest and having to answer too many questions that may go against our NDA. Along with that is that, no, we don't make minimum wage. Like any other job wage was a range based on our level of expertise being brought into the company. I will say that my pay was enough to lure me from another career and move my family out of state. I obviously left the company recently, but that is more personal in nature and not due to compensation nor lack of benefits. Sure there are higher paying career paths, but the compensation/benefits certainly wasn't in line with the claim that we make minimum wage.

Myth 2: This one showed up in various forms but something to the idea of "I bought this card on ebay. I doubt anyone there knows anything about this card." The first time I saw a claim like this I laughed, because I was the authenticator and not only had I seen the card, but own a copy of the same subject. I was one of the primary vintage people. Yet, so often I would see comments that questioned that anyone with any knowledge of vintage would see the cards in question and that we all looked at cards with a "modern eye". I was hired specifically because I collected vintage.

Myth 3: "I know what I am buying, I don't need eBay to tell me it is real." I saw this sometimes when an item would fail. This may be on eBay for not disclosing things better, but typically when I saw this I would look back at my notes and see I failed the card for alterations (Color Touch, Reshaped Corners, Built up corners, pressings, Trims), or for blatent mis representation of a card that had creases that were not seen in a listing. Sometimes this myth didn't come from a failing of a card, but just as a slam against the program in general. The problem is we saw bait and switches happening often. So, yes, the image in the listing was authentic, but it wasn't what we received.

Extra notes: This is an office job. So yes there are employees, like any other job out there, that may not put in the same effort or pride into their work. They don't last long as they make us all look bad when they mess something up. However I would suggest that when thinking of a grading company, that like any company, it is individuals that make up the greater company and they aren't all equal. Some of us take pride in our work and some skate by. I have seen this at any company I have worked at and grading was no different. The biggest difference is that if we made a mistake it made its way to social media and everyone in the department would know of your mistake. Some of our best accountability was not being shamed on social media.

Anyways I hope this was enough to remind you that graders are typically collectors also that are in the hobby alongside you. Like most dealers we just wanted to work in the hobby we love and chose grading as the avenue to pursue the dream.

Some may have dealt with me here, but you may also get more of an idea of my collecting habits on twitter (where some already follow and possibly interacted with me):
twitter.com/collecting4me




And because every thread needs a card, I attached one :D

Thanks for the info. Luckily I don't think I pushed those types of complaints about the grading companies.

Thanks for the post….can you disclose what the pay range is for an entry level grader? I’ve always wondered what the pay scale is, there’s lots of people who think they know….

I didn't hire people so I don't know the full range. I only know what I made. I don't feel comfortable disclosing that, but I have a stay-at-home wife and 6 children (ages 4-13). So enough to maintain our living situation off my salary. I am now going to work from home, which is a huge reason why I am leaving.

That alone is worth a Yow-za!!

But, thank you for clarifying that when I complain about my cards getting bad grades, they most likely DESERVE to get bad grades. You've ruined my life. :D:D:D

Grading
 

Appreciate this summary and I suspect you will get a ton of questions. We all understand if you can/can't answer some of them.

My question: Do graders know who the submission is from (we've all suspected they do) and do they keep track of a "certain" card from that submitter that gets resubmitted multiple times?

What state did you end up in? Hot or cold region.? HAHA!
Thanks!

Is there a 12 step process to coming out as a former TPG grader? I guess admitting it was the first step. Good luck with the final 11 steps. :p

Interesting insights and thank you for taking the time to share.

What I still can't wrap my head around is the total variance in the perception of the grading standards by different graders working for the same TPG.

Ok, let's not turn this into a TPG bashing thread. It'll be interesting to see what questions come up for our ex-grader on board.

In grading we didn't have access to the submission information.

As far as keeping track of a particular card, I feel that would fall under procedure talk that I can't disclose.

CGC is in Sarasota FL.

Based on that statement alone, the authentication program has value despite the delay/annoyance.

So, you are the guy that said the 1970 Nolan Ryan that I sold on eBay was trimmed. :) A few weeks later it was graded a 6 by SGC.

Thanks for some of the insight into to the world of grading. Would love to hear more especially when the NDA is up

I see the smiley, so I am sure it isn't personal. However I still felt it was worth a response.

If we failed something we wanted to be sure. If it was a trim it would have been failed by a team effort with multiple opinions given prior to failing.

No one wants to have their work called out. Sure we were anonymous, but not internally. So if we messed up and it was called out on social media or through support, it is very likely we would be talked to about it. No one, at any job, wants to have that type of talk with their boss.

All that said, is it possible I made a mistake, even if it wasn't on your specific card? Absolutely, I am human afterall, there is no way I didn't make a mistake at some point.

So here's a question that many are probably wondering:
A rare/scarce vintage card is bought through eBay AG that is real, but has minor undisclosed alterations. Who is resposible for recommending to the company that the buyer still get a chance to accept the card as is rather than cancelling the sale? Most buyers would prefer to fill a hole in their collection rather than have it unilaterally cancelled without input.

For clarification - which TPG did you work for?

Reading through your original post, were you indicating people would provide commentary on the cards in their submissions?

When I submitted cards, I'd put the ACC info on it and pray the TPGrader didn't totally hose the grade. I can remember once in a blue moon that I'd leave a comment and it usually was regarding encapsulating the card with an AUTH opinion if the grader felt it was altered in any way. What would drive me nuts is that receiving a card with the rejection slip/label and having wasted the money on that opinion. I felt, if an "A" label is what the card should have, then slab it anyway. I could always break it out if I wanted to. Biggest difference in a grade on a resubmission I had was through PSA. The initial grade was an "Auth". I resubmitted and received an "8".

We have so little as it is!

Must you take all of our most cherished myths away?

How can we complain about the TPGs without these myths to support our argument?

Then again, as far as I know the OP only worked for the CGC company. All our cherished myths can stay intact for the other grading companies.

Brian

This may be mildly irrelevant to your situation but I thought that I’d ask. eBay has spent a ton on this authentication process with high end packaging and utilizing grading companies to authenticate. Have you seen it make a difference from when they started the program up until you left in the amount of fake cards sent by sellers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kinda surprised that somebody with over 3000 posts has a username I don't ever recall seeing before. Recent name change, or did I miss 3019 of your posts?

Never changed his id (that I can remember)... only a moderator can change an id...
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It was an honest question. Username is unfamiliar somehow.

grader
 

Yes, very interesting look into that job

old age..... :)
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I understand wanting a look behind the curtains, but I can't really talk about the process. But it is worth mentioning again that we were all collectors, so we understood the mindset of a collector wanting an item that would be hard (or even impossible) to replace if they didn't get the item now no matter the condition.

CSG/CGC is the company I came from. My references were to typical messages I would see in the community (message boards and social media). The only notes I would see in grading is if there was a min grade or auth only requested. Graders aren't opening and processing the mail, so unless it directly affects our grading of the card we wouldn't see it (like the submitter information).

Oh, you can keep any myth you want, but I wanted to humanize the position a little :) . I am no longer in the field so really it won't affect me going forward. I just know that prior to taking the job it was hard to find any grader (former or current) that would publicly talk about it. So I thought I would add a little insight from my POV.

I felt like it ebbed and flowed. It was as though I would get a large flood of fakes, then it would be quiet for a month or two and it would happen again. I wondered if it was just fraudsters testing the waters again to see if they could get something by that they didn't get by previously.

As Leon has stated I have been around with the same name. I honestly don't recall your ID either. It just appears that our paths haven't crossed much. That said, I will go back and edit my profile now to put in my full name since this may be a little too close to an opinion and I don't want to break the rules.

Funny, I certainly recall your actual name! Just not your username, I guess!

Not yet, but I've certainly been getting some reminders that I'm not the young guy who started in this hobby so long ago. :)

I was hoping that "CSG" in the original post was at typo and that it was SGC instead. Please don't take this the wrong way but (IMHO) it would be more interesting if you worked for PSA or SGC because those are two biggest volume TPGs which means the business operations may be a little different because of the number of employees a larger TPG would have when compared to a smaller TPG. The biggest problem with TPGs is the consistency in how inconsistent the grading standards are applied to cards. Smaller TPGs probably do a better job than the larger TPGs (until they hit that point of no return and start acting like the larger TPGs).

So far, I've only purchased one card that is graded by CSG and it's graded correctly which helps build confidence in that TPG. I'm probably like most collectors and when I see any TPG slabbed card, I focus heavily on what I can actually see in scans/pictures (and many times, left shaking my head).

First, thanks for posting and being willing to chat a bit! I went to the summer camp/hiring event/whatever CSG had a couple years ago for fun to see what all could be learned.

An important takeaway from the above is that there is basically no such thing as "evidence" of trimming (outside of blatantly sloppy work). Highly skilled trimming is essentially undetectable and it's actually dishonest of all TPGs to use the phrase "evidence" when it's just a guess and opinion. If the TPGs were required to provide the evidence they supposedly have of a trim...you'd get crickets, because they don't actually have any.

Again, not directed specifically at any particular TPG, it's all of them. Cheers!

No stranger to the username. As indicated in my signature I've even done some deals with him, and if I remember correctly it was both buying and selling!

Oh there is still evidence left behind. It would be disingenuous to take what I stated and deduce that there is no evidence. However, it is always good to get a second opinion.

That is fine that you prefer those two companies. Again I no longer work in the industry, so it means nothing to me. SGC doesn't do eBay authentication.

Possibly not answerable, but was there pressure or expectations of you for quickness?

Like them wanting a certain number of cards per hour or day? (Obviously that number would be secret)

To say I prefer those companies is a bit inaccurate. I used to like SGC more than PSA, then SGC turned into PSA-Jr with all the inconsistent grading. At this point, I don't care for either PSA or SGC. However, I'm encouraged by what I've seen from CSG (from a grading standpoint). I won't pretend to say I understand the ebay authentication "thing".

Always liked CSG. I was a bit bummed out when they went CGC route. I always thought CSG graders were fair and accurate. With the exception of one card (where I missed a surface issue), their grade was either spot on or 1/2 grade in one or the other direction with my prediction (and I am conservative). It was never the PSA Russian roulette. And the CSG slabs are lovely.

My CSG 61 Kaat. Really sharp and clean card. Those scratches in the upper right are on the case, not the card.

I know from experience that this empathetic understanding does not stop CSG from unilaterally nixing a deal between a consenting buyer and consenting seller who reached a deal on eBay and who do not care one white for a fourth parties consent to their deal.

CSG (now CGC) grades more cards per month that SGC, just FYI. Here are the number of items graded by TPG for last month.

..

There are plenty of cards that bear very clear evidence of trimming. But I agree with your broader point that a lot of trimmed cards simply are not detectable. This is been shown to be true by countless examples posted by BODA with their before and after pics. Particularly with modern cards that have razor-sharp edges. People expect these graders to perform miracles sometimes. I swear they'd expect that you should be able to hand a grader a piece of paper that you cut with 3 pairs of scissors and have him tell you which cut came from which pair of scissors.

Are you of the opinion that there is always evidence left behind from trimmed cards then? Or at least that there is usually evidence left behind, and that when a trimmed card slips through, it could have or should have been caught, and that the only reason these surface with some degree of regularity is because of the sheer volume of cards that these companies are handling?

I wonder how many of those are Pokey-Man.

And for Andy: How incredbly tired are you of Pokemon? :) Do card graders get flooded with violent thoughts whenever they run into anything Pokeman-related in the course of their daily lives?

Great post! Thanks for starting the thread.

Question for you.. What is CSG's plan on grading more vintage? Is this a priority? or are they not concentrating on it? I haven't seen much CSG vintage at card shows or in auctions.

Thanks for opening the secret door a tad Andy!

One question that you may or may not be able to answer, how much time do you feel is spent on average looking at a singular card? Is their a company standard for review time?

You can get a pretty good estimate of this by knowing that PSA employs ~125 full time graders (stated by Nate in a recent podcast) and they grade roughly 1.2M cards per month.

I don't know what a typical day looks like, but I assume they get breaks and have meetings, take vacations, and get sick like everyone else. Let's say they spend 6 hours per day actually grading cards on average, so that's about 120 hours per month. Multiply that by 125 graders, and you get 15,000 man hours. Take 1.2 million cards divided by 15,000 hours and you get 80 cards graded per hour. So that's 45 seconds per card.

Andy,

I commend you on your decision to talk about your previous employment. Please be careful and don't put yourself into a corner you may not be able to escape from.

Regards,

Butch.

That should be very easy to accomplish. Every time I have pre graded my cards I spend way less time than that per card. Then you have the ones that just look off and you need to spend more time on. I would guess 10-15 seconds of grading with 30-35 seconds of data entry per card to get that 45 second time.

To the OP who I have noticed on here before. Thanks Andy for sharing what you did.

Removing and re-inserting each card into the Card Saver with care has to eat up 5-10 seconds of each 45. Some are stubborn, some are fragile. Most would take less time, of course...

Maybe the OP will chime in, but a straight quote from Andy Broome's (CGC) mouth to my ears was that a fully trained and up-to-speed card grader will grade 40-50 cards per hour.

That would be my opinion.
Is it possible to make it undetectable? Probably. Do the people trimming have the knowledge and ability to do that? Less likely.

If there was really no evidence left behind, how would you know it? It's really a matter of how much evidence and is it to a detectable level when examining a card for less than one minute.

What BODA does to detect alterations takes much longer than one minute per card.

I would seriously fail the card grader test. Takes me about a minute and a half just to put a card in a card saver while being paranoid the whole time I'm going to lift up a spot on a corner, just sliding it down into the holder. :o

45 seconds per card, while being able to also detect micro-trimming, alterations, factory cuts, non-factory cuts, etc...

GTFOH with that!

Maybe 2023 Pokemons straight out of the pack...but vintage? No way.

Takes me like 10 minutes under a light, magnifying glass, and my own constantly trailing off thoughts to even come to a guess what a T206 I'm submitting "might" come back as...and I'm usually wrong. :D

+1 If they’re grading cards in 45 seconds they are overcharging

That's a good point and brings up this question for the OP. Is significantly more time spent grading a higher value card than a low value card?

Andy,

What’s Your Monster Number? :D:D:D

Greg Morris said he was able to grade his cards listed on eBay in just a few seconds per card. I believe him. With the right setup and experience, you can grade cards fairly accurately pretty quickly. Especially if you only have to align them within a few grade ranges like he does.

Yes, definitely. Very high-end cards get looked at by multiple graders. When I sent in my Menko Jackie Robinson to SGC, they told me that they brought in their entire senior grading team to examine it.

An assumption is that all TPGs will charge on a sliding scale that charges higher $$$ for higher value cards. If they have a $15/card charge and "run" through the grading process, do they at least pause a little to grade a card that they are going to charge $500+ for encapsulation?

I looked at the PSA charges and it indicates $75 for a $1.5K card, $600 for a card valued at $9,999 (for walk through service). To me that's insanity. There's a $10K charge for grading a card value > $250K.

Sorry, I guess it's just sticker shock. It's been a long time since I looked at the PSA site for prices for grading.

I can't think of any grading/authentication place that doesn't have a sliding scale for pricing.

While 45 seconds seems crazy to us, to a pro at anything it's probably plenty of time for most items.
I had a couple items looked at by an expert at an international stamp shows "roadshow" type activity. The guy doing it was a long time dealer and probably expertiser, and did a basic authentication on both in under a minute. The explaining took longer, and I learned a lot. (especially that I might just know what I'm doing because I was right about both. )

Grading and a complete expertising might take a bit longer, especially the grading. But for most cards I can see it being a very quick process.
Should it be? I would like to think more time could be taken, especially on more expensive things. I think at 45 seconds, a lot of stuff like alterations could be missed.
But as it is everyone complains if it's"too slow" and also complains if it isn't what they think is correct, and especially if an alteration got missed.

Sorry I have been gone the last couple of days. Been down with a cold.
I will try and answer each question I saw in my absence.

Like you said not fully answerable. However, I don't think I am speaking out of place to say that they do try and stress accuracy over speed.


I would never say that the program is without its flaws. I was merely the hired employee, not the one making the high end decisions.

I do believe there is some evidence left behind, yes. Of course I could be wrong and am only one guy that is fallible. It is easier to detect on cards when you have handled 1000s of cards from a particular set and you know the intricacies of that set (how it rolls, which way the blade impression is left, how smooth/rough an edge is, size differences, etc.). It is certainly harder to pick up the smaller changes on a set that you rarely see. That is why talking to a team of people is always better than looking at it with only your own set of eyes.

As noted previously we were split between CGC and CSG. CGC did game cards and CSG did sports. When they merged to just CGC that separation still remained internally. So, I didn't work with game cards.

I can't discuss any internal marketing plans. It is safe to say that Vintage is a priority since Andy Broome (also a member of this site) is the VP and Vintage is his collecting preference.

I would not challenge what Broome says. :)

Not really a question here, but it does bring up a good point. Certain cards take more time than others. I was always expected to be slower since I dealt with more vintage than my colleagues that dealt primarily with ultra-modern.

I don't believe I can answer that one.

I don't actively collect the set. I certainly have t206s, but I don't know how many off the top of my head. :)


I do want to reiterate that I no longer am in the field, so I have no vested interest in the company or grading. These are my opinions and POV from working in the field previously. I may have confidence in my abilities that others may find unwarranted. Someone could certainly prove me wrong at any time (especially about evidence of trimming). However, I believe if you don't have some confidence in your skills at any job (not just grading/authenticating, but any job) you will become useless as you flounder in your uncertainty.


I don't know that I can provide much more as the questions are staying on the topic of processes. There are several interviews/tours that Andy Broome has given that provide some more insight of the process and those can be found on youtube.

well, here's an interesting one that I've wondered about since I spotted it.

Some modern cards like Gypsy Queen have cuts on some cards that are a mix of blade and die cut. Like die cut on a couple edges, and blade cut on one or two. (I think because the sheet margins are trimmed before die cutting)

Id that known to the grading companies? And if not how do they handle the mixed processes when determining trimming.