Helmar cards
 

What is your opinion on them?

I don't collect them but they're neat cards and the designs are fantastic. You can tell the guy behind them cares a lot about the history of baseball.

I've got a pretty high opinion of them. But be advised. They're made in very limited numbers, and they can be very pricey. But I guess that's what makes them collectable. They're really good looking and well made. I have more Banty Red than Helmar, but I like them both. I have a small binder of the ones I have.

I collect the Helmar cabinet cards. They are really beautiful cards, much more impressive in hand than they appear online. They are VERY thick - you will be surprised, and the images are actually glued on to the backboard, just like the cabinets from the nineteenth century. The size is 4 x 6. Also, they are a limited edition of twenty for each card. Here are a few of mine:

I recommend you check out their website. A great assortment of things to see. They have an auction every Tuesday night.

BTW, the color and design on the McGraw is correct. The Giants really did wear those in 1916.

nm

Wow thank you mark those are stunning,I’ll buy some cabinets now for display.very pretty.

Indeed, Charles, the owner and designer, is fantastic guy and ethical and vitally interested in history (even my own books). Dozens of designs now, from t206 size to large and thick and pre-distressed cabinets. I am selling a few of different variety if anyone is interested.

I've never purchased one of these modern Helmar cards. Initially, I thought they were horrible because people that don't know vintage cards may not read the entire item descriptions and not understand what it is they're going to receive.

With the above said, I think the person that is creating them is doing a nice job because these fantasy cards are what people would probably collect if they were in fact, vintage.

Nice looking, but not so much for me.

The print quality and colors are both extremely high quality. The name spelling needs a bit of work though 😂.

The detail in the Rolled lace glove is a phenomenal touch imo.
Definitely recommend them.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4cb9cda737.jpg

at least when they started, and I will presume this is still true, they use really good sports artists to do the work. I think they are very attractive for the most part and a good addition to a vintage collection with a modern twist And in many cases, if you can't afford the vintage cards, this makes a nice sub with the older style paintings.

Rich

Do they take requests? There are many a player that never had a card, those I would buy.

I think they are attractive, but not really cards because of age and licensing. If I bought one (and would if the right subject appeared) it would require a different mental head space than my "cards" purchases.

Another cabinet-sized sample

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1702308218

I don't have any of them, but I do like them a lot.

Another card maker, Banty Red, produces high-quality cards as well. They don't seem to sell as high as Helmar, but have quite a following. The Banty Reds I have came from Etsy, before inflation due to Covid. They seem to be exclusive to eBay these days. They aren't for everyone, and unlike Helmar, they use photography and colorized photography rather than paintings. I like the ones I have; they fill a niche in my collection. But I am leery of the way they both are auctioned on eBay. Maybe I'm wrong, but something just doesn't appear to be on the up and up with these auctions.

Not going to beat a dead horse as there is plenty, especially in the early days of me exposing the fraud of specifically one company. I see no real actual value in any of them, but if someone likes it for fun and no investment than please go ahead.

I just really have serious reservations about the producers of these that age product and purposely leave off production dates (especially when using the name of an actual vintage card producer to throw off google searches). I have seen these misrepresented on the secondary market far more times than I can count. If they are "art", they should be originals, if we are going for prints as semantics then the artist should be signing or credited and they should be dated.

Oh, and only one started off misrepresenting the product as some legit issue for a product premium, when it was easily found it was the other way around by creating tiny subcontracted product runs with no distribution contracts to legitimize the premise of this being some food issue.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...bxyTw&usqp=CAU

The part I made bold above is why I absolutely hate these cards.

When it comes to custom/homemade or whatever you want to call them cards I absolutely love them. There just has to be a way of telling they are new and not vintage/real. Making them look vintage with a real vintage name and not putting a modern date on them is the opposite of how I like my custom cards.

Most, if not all, of the Helmar cards are identified with production dates on the backs to avoid confusion with vintage cards. I enjoy the cards and have collected a few over the years to add to certain player collections I have. The artwork is top notch and you can see the effort and love that Charles puts into the cards.

Not sure about requests, but they have produced cards of many players that never had a card before (including House of David and International Stars). You can do a search on their website of everything they've produced - and clicking on a player's name takes you to a nice gallery of all their Helmar cards.

https://helmarbrewing.com/players/

Charles is a great guy and many years ago I helped write the back of some of the Goudey and T202 series cards. I personally really like the team postcards that used T206 images. They are made with wood and have a really cool 3d effect

Key card for your Schoendist collection.

I never thought
 

I would ever be interested in a modern artist's depiction of anyone, but have come to realize that talented artists can offer great art, even in copies. For collectors, nothing competes with original photographs or the artwork on Goudey for example, but I bought a Helmar cabinet of Charlie Gehringer because the artist has captured his likeness in a way that I think is perfect.

Enjoyable.

Helmars Art Cards
 

They are very nice for other collectors to collect.
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I hate to say it. Im struggling to see how they are any better than using AI to generate a famous baseball image and then making a high resolution print?

This can all be done at virtually no cost.

They're well-designed - very visually attractive. I really doubt AI would come up with anything close to Helmar cards. Also, (I don't own any Helmars myself) but it seems like physically they are nicer than mere hi-res prints.

Ai couldn't come close at this point in time. The attention to detail (E.g the rolled lace glove on my Red that I shared) and wide variety of players is definitely beyond its capability. We're talking tons of Negro league and obscure 19th century players that don't even have images when googled. You need a human hand to make this quality.

I think you’re underestimating AI.

You can feed it an image. Which is no different than Helmar imagery, based on existing images.

But if you like them. Collect them I guess.

There is always something inhuman about Ai art at this point in time. If it can't even do a standard human right, there's no way in hell it could get the intricate details and quality of a historical baseball image. Go feed any ai image generator a helmar card or a script of what you want it to create. Watch the monstrosities it creates that are not even on the same planet of quality.

But I have no doubt it may reach that point one day.

Here's the best I can currently do after spending a while.
Tried to do something helmar might actually make, babe Ruth and satchel paige. Let's just say.... It's not there yet.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c526065576.jpg

The Babe does look fairly decent, with a distinct Muhammad Ali vibe. And Satchell...perhaps a combination of Ernie Banks and Gary Coleman?

Brian

created to intentionally deceive. hard pass

Yea, babes not bad. But I expected that because there are so many images of reference for Ai to use. The main issues are the logos seemingly turned into hieroglyphics and satchels glove seemingly designed for a webbed foot. As well as baseball bats floating in the sky behind them.

Not a fan of AI whatsoever. I mean, look at how perfectly centered their Babe Ruth creation is!!!

Attachment 601387

Holy smokes! THAT, sir, is what I'm talking about!

The one time I looked at a "Babe Ruth" card and it reminded to check the air pressure in my tires.

helmar
 

I have requested them to come up with T3 of Dummy Taylor and they did. I won it on eBay for 70 dollars and it was worth it!

I love them and Banty Red too.

I feel like the t206 Helmars are decent. Not sure how, but they have an old smell to them as well. (Have these currently available on Facebook groups)

This statement is false.

+1. That's totally false.

+2 totaly false

Thank you everyone that’s what makes net 54 fun..im gonna get some cabinets for my office.No big deal

The person who makes them is a member on here. He has made a lot of "Vintage" cards with no dates. He quit posting on here because so many members were calling him out for exactly that.

Has he changed that aspect? I have no idea as I just make my own custom cards. If he has awesome. I know I looked at the auction page from his website and it didn't take long to find a card he was selling that looked vintage without any type of modern date on it.

I cannot imagine how absolutely stupid one has to be to believe these cards which are not reprints whatsoever and on modern stock and sold as modern cards with an art style different from period cards are real vintage items. At some point, morons are responsible for being stupid.

These cards are obviously not meant to intentionally deceive, and claiming they are is a dishonest lie.

I have never bought a Helmar and will never.

I 100% agree on the bold part but come on they look more real than 99% of the cards pictured in the "Look out for ----- card" on eBay threads. Better yet the is this rookie Mantle real? threads.:eek::D

EDIT: To add I do not in any way think the guy making the cards is trying to deceive anyone. It is others who buy his cards because some of them are not dated.

I don't know why you're quoting post 39 and complaining about the seller if you agree with the statement made, as you say here in your edit.

Which Helmar card takes more than a second glance to tell is not from c. 1888-1952?

Quoted because not all their cards are dated.

Sadly not everyone is the absolute expert on cards you are. I am sure the exact same people than need to know if the rookie Mantles are real. Same for those listings about eBay counterfeit cards on eBay. There are some people that obviously can't tell even horrible fakes from real let alone modern cards using a vintage name.

One does not need to be an expert in order to tell the incredibly obvious. When has Helmar reprinted a real card? When has Helmar made a card that could reasonably be mistaken for a real card? They change the designs a bit, add features not on original cards, the art style is completely different from any real set of the period, they look nothing like a real one whatsoever.

I went on their site for a few minutes and poked around for the closest card I could find to a real one. Can you tell the difference between these two? Do I need to identify which is which? Do you think any person of sound mind could possibly not tell the difference? I pray people are not genuinely this stupid.

Why are they illegally using images of deceased players and making it look old timey with no dates.

They don't even brew beer, it's made up to sell Laser printed cards.they took the original helmer tobacco name to confuse people

People question if they are period.


How the actual F am I lying?

It's plain as the nose on your face. Maybe not to astute n54ers, but your average person could think they are buying a helmar tobacco card.

You're lying because you are making a blatantly false claim that any reasonable person would know is false. The cards are absolutely not meant to deceive. Look at their site and listings for 5 seconds. There is no chicanery or dishonesty. Even a complete moron can separate these in 1 second from 'real' cards. They make no secret whatsoever they are modern creations, in fact they do the opposite of pretend they are period.

They don't even brew beer; it's a fake brand for a design. Clue #1,000 that's it is not from 1910? Duh.

This is not difficult to figure out. As always we have a couple people bullshitting with a clearly false narrative :rolleyes:

Yes but you are never wrong.:rolleyes:

Nothing is "rare" or "collectible" about a laser printed art card.

Why use the name Helmar? They are not trying to pivot off the tobacco name?




Asking for a fiend...(sic)


Atrempt at Fraud plain and simple.


I don't have to look at their website and claims, just the product and how it's marketed

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Feel free to point out any claim to fact that is false. Go ahead.

What? What does this have to do with the claim that the maker of these cards is intending to deceive and defraud people?

Each card is generally scarce in that there are only a handful or so, as I understand it. Collectible? Seems that they are, in fact, collectible as they sell of pretty strong prices a lot of the time. I don't collect them, they aren't my thing, but again there is an actual reality in the world outside of what I like and don't like, and my opinions do not change definable reality.

Considering they are putting ads for an imaginary Helmar Brewing product on the back, I'd say obviously not. You won't look at their claims or website, as you slander them with false claims of defrauding people, of course.

I never said anything was false. I do absolutely love how you carefully pick what to answer and what to completely ignore in your responses.

Put the pipe down dude. I think it is Time for your nap

Anyone can waste their money however they like.


Deceiving people using a 100 year old tobacco name for 100 year old baseball players made weekly with limited runs and no date. Claiming they are using a "notable name" since helmer brewing won an award once and call it art.

Unlicensed use of players and copying card designs. Maybe they are public domain, maybe it's illegal use. I'm sure st least ONE.person ONCE thought these were vintage

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OK did 1 second of research


This is being sold as a "t206"


No date of production listed anywhere

But it ain't a t206, just in the style of one.

Good nighthttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...dc7d870243.jpg

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I've never seen a complaint about somebody buying one. Just people complaining about why they wouldn't. Two opposite camps like everything else in the world. And yes I understand both sides, (I know that's rare)

The tea stains rest their case.

Jesus Christ. So the issuer of the cards is intentionally making their cards to deceive if someone sells a card on eBay without stating the year of production.

By this logic, every single maker of cards ever is intentionally deceiving people. Can we just think for 5 seconds before making ridiculous claims? :rolleyes:

Okay, if there's nothing false how am I wrong? I love how you make wild claims and can never defend them or come anywhere near an ascertainable fact.

I don't want to get sucked into the debate too deeply as I see both sides (though I am firmly in the pro-Helmar camp), however I felt the need to clarify that yes they used to brew beer back in the early 2000's out of Michigan. They started as a beer and potato chip company and included cards in the packages of chips and used baseball images on the beer.

& besides Beer, they made snacks too!
Here's an unopened bag that's on ebay (not mine)

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/xFsAA...Ed/s-l1600.jpg

This might provide some clarification:

"Since 2005, Helmar Brewing Co., headquartered in the Detroit, Michigan area, has been owned by Charles Mandel. Helmar is an old brand name from the early 1900s. Mandel purchased the rights to the name, and for the past 18 years has included limited-production cards as premiums with purchases of micro-brew beer, potato chips, and snack items. A staff of 7 produces the cards, including Mandel himself, and 5 artists. The cards are produced using vintage printing, ink and art techniques. They are sought after by modern collectors due to their high-quality, and command high resale value.

Banty Red Tobacco & Ale Co., operating out of Grayslake, Illinois, is under the ownership of Phil Apostle, a former collector turned manufacturer. Apostle sold a fortune in baseball cards and memorabilia in order to fulfill his dream of producing his own cards. After selling his own collection, he acquired an extensive collection of photographic negatives of ballplayers from the "golden era" of baseball. These cards are made by hand in very limited numbers, most only 1 or 2 cards each. With photographic imagery not found on any other cards, and in high quality, they sell immediately upon issue, often in the hundreds of dollars."

There is no intent to deceive, at least as far a card production is concerned, even though they may be labeled as t206 or whatever; that just refers to the size of the cards for reference and comparison purposes to genuine vintage cards. Anyone with any knowledge of vintage cards will know that these are cards have never before been issued before. The ageing, rounded corners, and scuff marks are all in the spirit of making them look and feel old. But they are what they are. They fill a niche in the hobby; a way to get some old-looking cards without necessarily going to the poor house. I don't believe I have ever seen a graded example of even one of these cards. That's not what they are about, either. They are not for everyone. But if you are into old-time baseball, they can be quite interesting.

If those are yours feel free to look at them, they are created by Michigan Brewing Company, a company since out of business that did small subcontracted runs of decorative label items. Somewhat like the days of Billy beer.

Helmar was never a brewer, nor need they have much distribution if any in my knowledge. I live a couple miles from the home Helmar used as their business address and can say I never once saw any of these products. This is why you will never see either with a price tag. They were extremely limited marketing items to build the brand of cards, not the other way around.

It is fine to like them, but disingenuous to represent as true history that this was the original distribution method. This has been discussed over the years very early on.

I think also some of the not made to deceive folks are relying a ton on current day (which I am happy and excepting of when dated) and not the numerous early Helmar designs and listing practices like the legendary Cap Anson Padlock threads that fooled quite a few on this site as I remember...

While I cannot speak for anyone else, in 10 years of sales I, personally, have had 2 people purchase cards that they thought were vintage. Both received immadiate refunds and were novice collectors that thought they could purchase a "1922" Rogers Hornsby, for example, for 23.00.
To answer the copyrights, I own or license my images and many are simply out of copyright. To date, more than two dozen families of players have responded with joy and many receive free copies. Some have even provided signatures for use on my cards that are seemingly impossible to find.
My cards are original paintings or colorized images--depending on the era and vibe I am trying to evoke.
Starting in 2022, copyrights and dates are listed on the reverses of most cards. Some just look terrible with the type on the reverse, so I use out of copyright reverses or make them entirely different artwork.
Some people love art cards, some hate them. Just like I won't consider buying any Mickey Mantle cards after 1961...to me, he looks bloated and on the decline. It's personal taste. No deception is ever intended.
Believe me on this; if I wanted to be deceptive, I could make a card that nobody could tell the difference. Frankly, simply making a countefeit card would be much easier than what I do. I have no desire to spend my time doing that because my motivation has always been "something new and interesting".
A miniscule amount of collectors can afford ANY Mantle or Ruth card. They can afford mine and enjoy them. It's collecting in it's pure form.
Remember, they cards we cherish are, at the end of the day, ephemera.
I also would like to note that all substrates we use in assembly are vintage and pre-date 1956.
I will speak for Charles Mandel on this; that man has NEVER tried to deceive anyone. He is a pure art guy. He's passionate about his craft. We love what we do and are grateful enough people like it that we can afford to do it.

Finally, I DO brew my own beer! Lol. All of the Beers and Ales we refer to on our cards actually exist. Some don't taste too good, but I'm learning. My Summer Brew wound up tasting like Cherry Wheat and the Ruby Ale is almost too strong, Lol.

Justin, two things....I CAN see where a collector could be accidentally fooled by that Cap Anson. Not intentional. We learn as we go. Because such a thing never existed, I wouldn't know enough unless it was stated in the listing. I read listings--some don't.
Either way--it's gorgeous.
Two, I loved Lance Parrish! I have a modest collection of Parrish items. Very cool that you admire him, too.

I have a small binder of both Banty Red and Helmar cards. I like them. And like it or not, they have a following.

I'm always on the lookout for any Jersey City Skeeters Helmar cards like these. If anyone has any available, please let me know. I need them for my Jersey City Skeeters team collection. Thanks guys!




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