Goldin Increasing Buyer's Premium
 

Goldin has apparently increased their buyer's premium to 22%. I agree, of course, that all bidders should be doing the math and know the full cost of their bids, so I am not claiming deception or anything here. But given that 20% is pretty standard and the proliferation of auctions and auction houses should in theory make competition more intense, is anyone surprised that Goldin is raising, rather than lowering the buyer's premium? Do we think other auction houses are likely to follow? Does anyone expect this to hurt Goldin at all?

Buyer's Premium only matters to sellers [and very uneducated buyers], so would imagine this would impact their ability to get good material for upcoming auctions.

There was a time in the not-too-distant past, that I remember 15% BP being the standard. Then someone went to the unheard-of 20% BP, and we thought it would impact their ability to get consignments. Now most auction houses are at 20%.

Hopefully it stays as just being Goldin at 22%, but I fear there are other shoes to drop across the industry in the near future.....

Is this because they're having to give more juice back to their consignors to remain competitive with the other Major Auction Houses???? Could be..it's business.

What they are signaling is that unless you have really great stuff and thus the leverage to negotiate for a share of the BP, they are going to take an even bigger cut of the action.

I predict 25% will be the new standard soon.

I'll say we're trying to hold the line at 18% and no extra charge for credit card or paypal, but it's tough, because people still expect you to give back on the BP for the best stuff even though we're collecting 2-6% less in the first place.

Doesn't seem like it. Consignors pay a 5% seller's premium up to 2,500, get 0% of the buyer's premium up to 7,500, and only get a 5% cut beyond that.

At some point if you're a consignor of anything but elite cards, it doesn't make sense to give up 25 percent of the sale price to an auction house.

It's absurd. Why would anyone pay this? Just put it on ebay or send it to Probstein where he only charges 5%

Yeah, that's recent to. They're giving less juice and charging seller's premiums where they didn't used to.

Fairly recently I sent a submission of modern-ish cards I didn't really want to handle myself to the vault, to eventually auction/sell on the Goldin platform.

There was no additional sellers premium or listing fee for anything that sold over $25.00. Now that bottom level was jacked all the way up to $2500 bucks, on top of the 2% increase in the buyers premium.

So essentially, a 20% selling fee went up to a 27% selling fee, since I don't generally play in the higher end playground.

I had what was left sent back to me. I guess I'll go back to dealing with the hassle of Ebay myself.

I understand them not wanting to handle that stuff. They probably discovered they didn't have enough incentive to inventory, store, handle and ship out the cheaper cards in their weekly auctions.

I guarantee you that if I walk in with a T206 Wagner that number is 100% negotiable.

We are still very much in the FOMO phase of card buying. I think it will depend on how much of an influx of new money continues into the hobby. 22% may be sticky. You may also see a tiered % at some point.

Lol. Yes, Probstein is the answer. Lol.

Or a complete T-Rex skull.

Or any number of other items.

I get why they are doing it. Hot market. I was in the market for a new car earlier this year and wanted to go electric and take advantage of the tax rebate. In the two weeks I contemplated it, the Chevy dealer jacked up the price $900 because the cars were moving and they wanted a cut of the rebate money. When the market cools, the BP will be readily negotiable. Besides, there are so many AHs now that you can get a better deal elsewhere. it's not like Goldin brings any better expertise or better marketing to bear. Frankly, their site is clunky and they run so much crap all the time that it feels like anything under six figures is just thrown out there with a pro forma description and very little effort.

And? The overwhelming majority of cards that people consign are at a much much much lower level.

Or a shark's tooth.

So the guy who proudly proclaimed on UTube that he has a 9 figure bank account feels he has to squeeze consignors and buyers for another 2%. Despite what Gordon Geko said, greed is ugly.

Got to up the buyer's premium when you have to hire more hands for cards to be holdin'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPiALa0CIMc


Brian

Goldin Auctions is under common ownership now with PSA/CU. The decision may be coming from that level.

I am not really too bothered by the increase in BP since you can always factor that into your bidding. However, I am fairly annoyed that Goldin needs to receive your payment within 6 days of their auction ending or that they will hit you with an additional 3% late fee. If you send payment through snail mail the next day, there's a good chance that it won't even arrive in 6 days. This was for Goldin's recent Elite 200 auction that ended on Sept 13th, and the invoices came late that night. The due date was set at Sept 20th. To be fair to Goldin, I did call their office to discuss this, and they said that they could withdraw the late fee if I needed more time. The other thing I complained to them about was that their shipping/insurance fee of 0.9% of purchase price +$19 ended up being nearly 3 times the shipping price of my Memory Lane winnings for a comparable amount, which I thought was significantly too high. They said they could not do anything about that, however.

I buy records from an English auction house and their BP is 25% or 28%+ for those that get charged VAT.

Why not? The major auctions have no shortage of material. Capitalize on the market.

Agreed. After paying $200 million (I'm not sure if that figure is accurate) for the AH in 2021 at the top of the market, CU may be squeezing Mr Goldin to become more profitable to justify their investment.
I think an organically grown auction house that has lower expenses and no investors to answer to may have a market advantage moving forward.

Brockelman Auctions fits the bill, with a buyer's premium of 15% and NO seller's premium on consignments. Scott should be getting more of our business folks.

brianp(arker)-beme

In regard to Goldin's BP influence / impact on other AH's, I would bet it will be a case of "monkey see, monkey do." Just watch . . .

Thanks Brian!

Apparently the word is getting out, the auction opening later this month will have over 1,100 lots.

Goldin takes credit cards for an additional 3% fee so their BP is at 25% if one pays that way.

They are just passing the CC fee on to the buyer instead of eating it themselves.

OK, just got another e-mail from them stating that graded cards from the vault, are still at a 0% sellers commission, though buyers premium is still going up to 22%. $5 listing fee now applies for any card that sells below $50 now, instead of the previous 15 or 20 bucks or so...which I totally understand.

Not a huge deal, but wish they would have made that clearer with the earlier e-mail.

I hope they use the money to improve the website and search / sort function.

I won a shirt in today's Hunt live auction. They are still at 17.5%.

Every buyer's premium increase only hurts the seller.

I'm surprised they even take cards under $100 or so honestly. They're making next to nothing on cheap cards.

As to the rate hike, I am assuming they did it because they think they're the big dogs now because of the Netflix show. It probably has brought them more business, so they're trying to meet the increased demand with higher pricing. Whether that turns out to be a wise decision or not though remains to be seen.

He's not making the decisions, he doesn't own the company.

One of the things I absolutely love about dealing with REA is this:

This standardized fee schedule is $10 per invoice valued at less than $500;
$15 per invoice valued between $500 and $999;
$20 per invoice valued between $1,000 and $2,499;
$25 per invoice valued between $2,500 and $4,999;
$35 per invoice valued between $5,000 and $9,999;
$40 per invoice valued between $10,000 and $19,999;
$50 per invoice valued between $20,000 and $49,999;
$75 per invoice valued between $50,000 and $74,999;
$85 per invoice valued between $75,000 and $99,999;
$100 per invoice valued between $100,000 and $249,999; and
$150 per invoice valued at greater than $250,000.

My first (last?) Goldin invoice was nearly 2x with shipping.

Having recently moved and selling some art and furniture through heritage and others, the other categories at auction are all way higher, 25-30% and they charge moving and handling fees. I didnt have enough dollars to negotiate much, though I did get the sellers fee eliminated at one place when i complained vigorously that it was ridiculous on TOP of the 27% buyers premium from my high end sports auction experience.

I agree with what others have said that it is just an auction house trying to get a larger piece of the pie from the consignor. Smart consignors will stipulate in their consignment contract the amount of points from the BP that the AUCTION HOUSE gets, not the amount that they get. That way if they were getting 7% out of 20% they would get 9% out of 22%.

Only an idiot would pay a seller's commission

How do you really feel, Jay? :D.

I completely agree that only an idiot would pay it; an imbecile or moron is too smart to fall for that. I guess all those idiots can do is work really hard at it and aspire to become an imbecile or perhaps even a moron (for the over-achievers). And just to head off the pissy emails from angry imbeciles and morons, no, I am not prejudiced against them. I have imbeciles and morons in my own family, and when I was a teenager i definitely thought my father was an idiot. Anyone who'd get bent out of shape about it is a cretin.

Buy has been replaced by bye bye.

This made me chuckle.

I believe that with the industrialization of the larger AH's, the smaller guys like Scott B. are vital to success of the hobby. He may not have the depth of offerings like the giants but there should be a place for him. I know I always find a couple of items in his auctions I bid on, and if there is a problem, he is always quick to fix it, unlike, say, Ebay which is like pulling teeth.

Yes, REA always has very reasonable shipping fees. Memory Lane is similar:

• Invoice price Zero - $500.00 = $15.00 shipping
• Invoice price $501.00 - $2,000.00 = $25.00 shipping
• Invoice price $2,001.00 - $5,000.00 = $35.00 shipping
• Invoice price $5,001.00 - $10,000.00 = $50.00 shipping
• Invoice price $10,001.00 - $15,000.00 = $100.00 shipping
• Invoice price $15,001.00 - $50,000.00 = $125.00 shipping
• Invoice price $50,001.00 and above $150.00 shipping

Christies is still the worst when it comes to shipping fees, however. I remember I won a single 8x10 photo from them, which cost ~$1400 after BP, and the shipping charge was $140, which was basically 10% of my purchase price. Granted, they did ship my photo to me very securely as if I won a Picasso painting. Christies also had a 25% BP.

I tried to argue with Goldin that their sister company PSA has much more reasonable shipping fees as follows (for 1-8 items):

$1 -$1,000: $19
$1,001 - $5,000: $34.00
$5,001 - $15,000: $42.00
$15,001 -$25,000: $49.00
$25,001 - $50,000: $61.00
$50,001 -$75,000: $69.00
$75,001 -$100,000: $84.00
$100,001 -$150,000: $125.00
$150,001 - $200,000: $136.00

That argument got nowhere. I really wonder if Goldin is trying to make the shipping fees so high in order to convince folks to just send their winnings to the Goldin vault so that they will consign to Goldin when they want to sell.

With the new higher fees would someone please explain to me why anyone would consign to Goldin rather than REA, HA, LOTG, Memory Lane or a lot of other auction houses. This is a legitimate question. I just don't see why this will net them more money. I would think that this would cost them consignors and they will actually net less. Do they have bidders that others don't? Do they have a better platform than others? Thanks for any input.

I think Gary nailed it: they are trying to force people into their vault/consignment network by offering a discount if you deliver your stuff into their clutches directly. If you sell immediately, great. If you store it there, the fees will be coming, so also great.

Their platform is...quirky.

One word.

"Netflix"


The casual collector, inheritees, and athletes who have accumulated lots of stuff but don't have a collectors mentality will go with the guy who flies around on private jets and gets world record prices (according to a television show they saw).

Unfortunately, ouchingly true. He is the updated version of Mr. Mint.


brianp(arker)-beme

Without the personality, but he does have a bigger variety of greasy sidekicks.

Looking back at my Goldin invoices I was never charged a credit card fee. Each invoice shows $0.00 for this.

I'm amazed how many PSA 8 1988 Topps All Stars and the like they fill their auctions with.

You think Goldin is struggling to keep up?

The BP percent will not go down when the market cools and other Auction Houses will keep an eye on Goldin and if they feel Goldin is not losing consignments and sales from it then they will follow with increasing their BP percentage.

Their site shows they charge it now. I have never bid with them (because of their website design which I find too hard to navigate) and maybe it is that they used to discount the invoices for payments by check, wire, etc?

Golden now has to answer to CU and the stakes are much higher, for perspective if they had to pay the freight on a $200,000,000 loan at 7% the interest alone would be north of $1.6 million per month or $415,000 per weekly auction.

Of course the pressure is on, CU paid at the top of the market with drunken projections for the future and a poorly designed platform.

Don't lose sight that Ken is a really, really good salesman and the CU gang were using OPM for their purchase.

It's an exhausting high stakes game that hobbyists don't even need to engage in, imho.

This.

Imma go out on a limb and suggest that the weekly auctions aren’t paying much of the debt service here. It’s the premier auctions that are doing the heavy lifting.

I'll posit the 2021 projections were generous at best. The business model was flawed imo at those heady levels. MJ rookies and the whole fomo all boats rise with the tide mentality took hold, when your talking about those corporate investment levels it's no longer about the hobby but serious ROI. I'm no expert thankfully, I'm just a collector but it's not rocket science to observe collectible economic cycles.

Good post

I have no axe to grind re: Goldin. They are a board advertiser, and I have bought from them many times. I will say that their auctions, at least on the vintage side, have gotten real thin of late. Some of the weekly auctions are super unimpressive.

Everyone who rushed to weekly and monthly auctions should go back to 3 or 4 a year. Market has been changed and not for the better. It's relentless and waters down your product.

When CU bought Goldin they quit advertising here. They might advertise in the future again. There is no doubt Ken has to answer to CU in many ways.

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I predict all major AHs will now go to 22 percent by the beginning of 2024.

Some have posited that these weekly auctions are a natural result of the decline of eBay due to the newly lowered threshold for 1099s on that platform. I suspect that the weekly auctions have their place in this brave new world, although agree that most of the weeklies tend to be full of vast mountains of bargain bin items, which can be difficult to feel any desire to attempt to keep up with. Particularly because it’s usually not as simple as just setting an eBay search alert for when something on your wish list comes along.

I would predict Heritage would be the first to follow.

For many years now, Heritage has been doing weekly auctions. I never really view them, and even more rarely buy from weekly auctions, but I think they (and monthly auctions, which groups like sterling and iconic have been doing for years) have an audience and legitimate value in the marketplace. They dont bother me at all. If you dont like them, dont look at them.

I do agree that the big auction events have been watered down. REA;s auctions used to be all the rage. They are still great, but dont have the buzz and chatter they used to have. Heritage has an auction every month, which potentially lessens the sensation of their platinum events. All that said, there is still a ton of great stuff coming to auction all the time, so i dont the its affecting the overall quality of material brought to the market annually.

Regarding Goldin, I have no issue with them whatsoever and have only had good experiences. That said, I am not sure i have bought anything from Goldin since it was sold - I think the website/interface is annoying and clumsy/non-intuitive and the auctions rarely have items I want. But if/when they have something that appeals to me, I will bid with them and i will do so with confidence. I have never consigned anything to Goldin and I am not sure i ever will- this increased BP makes it even more unlikely.

Good to know.

Drew, I'll give it until the end of 2024.

I'd bet against this. I think each AH will analyze their situation (expenses, profit margin,) and make independent decisions. They won't simply follow Goldin like lemmings.

CU has a near monopoly situation with PSA and that registry. I think they underestimated the collective (pun intended) strength of all the other AH when they acquired Goldin. When you look at all the great stuff continually offered by the other AH, both the major and smaller ones, there's a ton of really high-quality items Goldin isn't getting a piece of.

In short, I think CU expected Goldin to dominate the AH space to a far greater extent than they are, and this price increase may be a reaction to that. IMO it will only give them a competitive disadvantage.

I would bet large that Hunt, specifically, will not go from 17.5% to 22% for at least a few years, if ever.

Mark, I'd almost be happy for Hunt to increase its BP from 17.5% to 20%, provided this increment was used to acquire state-of-the-art auction software. :)

LOL, I hear you! Their website, which usually has only one picture per lot, is as basic (primitive) as it gets. But, their live auctions (run by Invaluable) are great. I participated (in a small way) in the one 2 days ago. Very fun.

I'd rather have the 17.5% and basic website though, and I've found their customer service to be very good. Their catalogs are excellent as well - when they arrive, a quick perusal tells me if there's anything of interest.

Each AH will go their own way. They won't all follow Goldin.

When I posted my last message, concerning Goldin advertising here, I hadn't known about emails that went to spam yesterday. They might start advertising again very soon, in some form.
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What an outrage having to pay taxes. :)

HA.

I don't doubt that's part of it. Another part could just be the administrative side. I suspect most of us struggle to keep good records about every piece we have, and then report each of those individual sales and our gain/loss. Even if you only sell 1 piece each week, that's 52 sales to be tracking and reporting on your tax return. In some cases, your income might be little or nothing, so no real tax to be paid - just administrative stuff to navigate.

I'm guessing the average American feels like that entire exercise is one gigantic hassle that they'd prefer to avoid if they can. Plus not wanting to endure the administrative hassle it's a great excuse to feel better about yourself if it also happens to result in you paying less tax.

I believe Goldin issues a 1099 form, so no getting around that with them.

I suspect most people don't pay taxes unless they know they could get caught by a paper trail.

They don't send 1099s, as of now, but anything can change in the future.
.

FYI: Mr. Goldin monitors this board very actively so rest assured he is digesting what is being posted

Rich

I assumed they did, because when I sold a few things through there from the vault, they deducted a big percentage of it for "withholding", until I provided my tax information to them.