M101-2 Sporting News Supplements: Gaining more attention, discuss
 

Yeah, they've been around forever, I always had a few tattered ones (Merkle!), but never got much attention because of inevitable condition issues and mainly--no PSA grading! Only BGS. Still, I have always loved them. As a photog, I appreciate the quality of the images, the very large size and sepia. Almost nothing like them, and some captures are simply stunning.

The attention and value started changing a few years back when PSA started grading. Fit the PSA holder very well and look great. Very few noticed at first, as few graded, but now surging (relative to the norm for these), as top cards now boast at least half-dozen graded and some a dozen or more. Prices have soared at major auction houses while raw, flawed, ones are now frequent on eBay.

PSA has kept everyone guessing by being super-tough on grading, with any crease or invariable slight border nick or tear almost always earning a "1." Absolutely gorgeous examples with square corners but one tiny flaw still get a 1.5 at best. Man, to get a "3" you really earn it. Total number of "5s" so far: 5, and none higher. So in many cases it is buy-the-image-not-the-grade, with Cubs players seemingly getting a nice boost a value. BGS grades now seem inflated and no one seems interested in them now.

Anyway: If you want to add your two cents or two dollars here please do so. It will be interesting to see if prices hold or gain or fade as more graded. Or perhaps the universe of these in good condition is very small. The elite cards now are: Jackson, Cobb, Wagner, Cobb-Wagner, Johnson-Street, Matty, and Alexander (often called his rookie card)....

My only one, though not elite apparently lol.

Greg,

"BGS grades now seem inflated and no one seems interested in them now."

Respectfully, this is your opinion, and is not shared by most or possibly even any other collectors frankly.

Just check out the current Heritage Auction, which clearly demonstrates strong interest in M101's in BGS holders. To save you time, here is the link.

Maybe "no one seems interested" is too strong, apologies, but the fact is--the number of BGS sales via auction and ebay in past two years is barely visible in comparison to PSA sales--even though BGS has to date still graded twice as many of these.

Fair enough Greg. But also it is possible that many with BGS are not selling, some might be crossing over now that PSA is grading them, etc. There are lots of possibilities.

Regardless, it is exciting to see interest is growing in these.

Do you think the increasing interest in the M101-2's parallels the uptick in interest in pre-war Type 1 photos (Conlon, etc.)?

That's an interesting point about pre-war photos helping spark. Certainly the interest in the photos is long overdue. It may be that many or some others, like me, find the much larger images more gripping and great in the hand vs. the relatively tiny cards.

On people maybe crossing over these to PSA: Seems wise. This year a BGS 4.5 Bobby Wallace sold for 360. A PSA 2 for same this year went for 580.

The problem in crossing over, however, will be likely grade deflation in most cases. For example, that BGS 4.5 Wallace on close inspection had the kind of little nicks that guarantee a PSA 1 or 1.5. I know because I owned it.

Speaking to the M101-2s I never really appreciated them other than the Cobb, which Jeff posted. I think that is the nicest looking Cobb "card" in the hobby. The others never did much for me until recently where I have added a few to my collection. They are beautiful in any grade.

My take on the grading is that PSA seems to be too harsh on them but they are overly harsh on all oversized issues from those I have seen. I think BVG does a much better job of grading them but BVG will never command the price you will see for those in a PSA holder, as in the example that Greg sited.

The main stars from the set are selling for huge premiums over what they had once sold for. I think it is possible we could see more appreciation in the future. Almost all are low pops but that is because PSA charges a fortune to grade them.

I like M101-2, but only if they’re signed! From the Doc Steen collection. And they look great in BGS holders. :D

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...0a11b92b_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/4457/2...977b429e_b.jpg

Mr Delong
 

Picked this up years ago from Mr Delong in Fort Smith...here is the back...Jerry

I should have noted that the team cards are also cool. They come in two types: ones that are same size as players and can be graded by PSA (e.g. Red Sox, Giants), and double folds that cannot (Pitt with Wagner, A's, Cubs, Tigers with Cobb dressed in suits).

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694853549

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694853549

Those team shots are incredible.

Every once in a while, you can find a reprint set available online. Each has a corner box noting "From Collection of Wm. Starr, San Diego, Ca.; Copyright 1980".

Any chance it was Bill Starr, former player/owner? https://sabr.org/journal/article/bil...rated-the-pcl/

Here is a sample:

https://pictures.abebooks.com/inventory/30051926371.jpg

Nice thread, Greg.

For those who seek impossible challenges, collect them with ad backs ...
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=143977

Leon's example from the thread above:
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1511649281

I love collecting the M101-2 set.
They have been getting pretty expensive recently, especially Hall of Famers.
I have the Del Gainor, Hughie Jennings and Ban Johnson

RobG, I don't have any ad backs but I do have separate offer card.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694869301

These are a few of my favorite things

Sporting News
 

I have picked up about 10 of these to add to my collection. They used to be cheap. No more. Here is my favorite.

Another double-sized team card. Even harder to find in nice shape.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694882334

Here is the issue date for the set:


1909-13 M101-2 Sporting News Supplements
Player Checklist

Card Issue Date Player

1909
(1) July 22 Roger Bresnahan
(2) July 29 Denton Young, Louis Criger
(3) August 5 Christopher Mathewson
(4) August 12 Tyrus R. Cobb
(5) August 19 Napoleon Lajoie
(6) August 26 Sherwood N. Magee
(7) September 2 Frank L. Chance
(8) September 9 Edward Walsh
(9) September 16 Nap Rucker
(10) September 23 Honus Wagner
(11) September 30 Hugh Jennings
(12) October 7 Fred C. Clarke
(13) October 14 Byron Bancroft Johnson
(14) October 21 Charles A. Comiskey
(15) October 28 Edward Collins
(16) November 4 James A. McAleer
(17) November 11 Pittsburgh Team (Pirates; 10x16 inches)
(18) November 18 Detroit Team (Tigers; 10x16 inches)
(19) November 25 George Bell
(20) December 2 Tris Speaker
(21) December 9 Mordecai Brown
(22) December 16 Hal Chase
(23) December 23 Thomas W. Leach
(24) December 30 Owen Bush

1910
(25) January 6 John J. Evers
(26) January 13 Harry Krause
(27) January 20 Chas. B. Adams
(28) January 27 Addie Joss
(29) February 3 Orval Overall
(30) February 10 Samuel E. Crawford
(31) February 17 Fred Merkle
(32) February 24 George Mullin
(33) March 3 Edward Konetchy
(34) March 10 George Gibson, Arthur Raymond
(35) March 17 Ty Cobb, Hans Wagner
(36) March 24 Connie Mack
(37) March 31 Wm. Evans, "Silk" O'Loughlin,
William Klem, Wm. Johnston
(38) April 7 Edward Plank
(39) September 1 Walter Johnson, Charles E. Street
(40) September 8 John C. Kling
(41) September 15 Frank Baker
(42) September 22 Charles S. Dooin
(43) September 29 Wm. F. Carrigan
(44) October 6 John B. McLean
(45) October 13 John W. Coombs
(46) October 20 Jos. B. Tinker
(47) October 27 John I. Taylor
(48) November 3 Russell Ford
(49) November 10 Leonard L. Cole
(50) November 17 Harry Lord
(51) November 24 Philadelphia-A Team (Athletics; 10x16 inches)
(52) December 1 Chicago-N. Team (Cubs; 10x16 inches)
(53) December 8 Charles A. Bender
(54) December 15 Arthur Hofman
(55) December 21 Bobby Wallace
(56) December 28 Jno. J. McGraw

1911
(57) January 5 Harry H. Davis
(58) January 12 James P. Archer
(59) January 19 Ira Thomas
(60) January 26 Robert Byrnes
(61) February 2 Clyde Milan
(62) February 9 John T. Meyer (Meyers)
(63) February 16 Robert Bescher
(64) February 23 John J. Barry
(65) March 2 Frank Schulte
(66) March 9 C. Harris White
(67) March 16 Lawrence Doyle
(68) March 23 Joe Jackson
(69) October 26 Martin O'Toole, William Kelly
(70) November 2 Vean Gregg
(71) November 9 Richard W. Marquard
(72) November 16 John E. McInnis
(73) November 23 Grover C. Alexander
(74) November 30 Del Gainor
(75) December 7 Fred Snodgrass
(76) December 14 James J. Callahan
(77) December 21 Robert Harmon
(78) December 28 George Stovall

1912
(79) January 4 Zack D. Wheat
(80) January 11 Frank "Ping" Bodie
(81) October 10 Boston-A Team (Red Sox)
(82) October 17 New York-N Team (Giants)
(83) October 24 Jake Stahl
(84) October 31 Joe Wood
(85) November 7 Charles Wagner
(86) November 14 Lew Ritchie
(87) November 21 Clark Griffith
(88) November 28 Arnold Hauser
(89) December 5 Charles Herzog
(90) December 12 James Lavender
(91) December 19 Jeff Tesreau
(92) December 26 August Hermann

1913
(93) October 23 Jake Daubert
(94) October 30 Heinie Zimmerman
(95) November 6 Ray Schalk
(96) November 13 Hans Lobert
(97) November 20 Albert W. Demaree
(98) November 27 Arthur Fletcher
(99) December 4 Charles A. Somers
(100) December 11 Joe Birmingham


Source: https://oldcardboard.com/m/m101-2/m101-2list.asp

Pretty neat! 25 for a $1, not a bad deal!

Another double-sized team photo--this time the dressy Tigers. Easy to spot Tyrus. I took this out of a frame where, fortunately, it had never been pasted on anything, so back is clean.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694921139

M101-2 Set
 

I put together a full set of these some years back. I had never detected much interest in these until reading this thread. A couple of mine are in Beckett holders. Though I think they present more nicely “raw”, I never bothered to break them out for fear of damaging the paper. Surprised to learn that PSA is slabbing them.

KCohen, presuming you still have them--you might want to check out eBay auctions ending tonight with most of a full set raw. As usual, they are in pretty rough condition--some with tape on back and missing corners--but check out the prices for some of them, even with major flaws....

Thanks Greg. That should be interesting. Fortunately the key player examples are in good shape without major flaws

KCohen, you mean the ones you have?

has anyone figured out a good way to display the larger 16x10 cards without damaging them? the standard size fit perfectly into a single pocket album page.

James M., i have mine in regular frames, just fit them in and with loose backing so no damage. It's a pain but possible.

PSA does not grade. I think BGS did, perhaps folding them over?

Yes. The ones I have.

i store the "non-large" m101-2s in a rigid holder that then fits into an Avery album page for binder viewing. Adds extra support and lets me see that oh-so imporant blank back:rolleyes:

https://photos.imageevent.com/imover...rge/img354.jpg

Here are a couple of mine. PSA grading on these is just stupid. Mine will not show up in their holders while I'm still breathing. I did buy a couple of commons in Beckett holders, and am waiting for someone to lend me a jackhammer so that I can release them.
https://photos.imageevent.com/imover...uge/img809.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/imover...ohnson_ban.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/imover...uge/img808.jpg

a few weeks ago, i literally went 1 out of like 40 auctions for the M101-2s that GMC was selling and it really bummed me out. tonight, i ended up winning 10 out of the 35 that i had snipes in for. ups and downs, strikes and gutters, as they say

I only won 2. Prices for rough 'n raw on some might seem high (especially vs. year ago) but some were real bargains.

It is wonderful to see Sporting News supplements getting their due. I love how Doc Steen referred to them as “rotogravure photos.” Imagine being able to find those old printing plates today!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a40680d2_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/4478/3...b645ee4e_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...04f9b4e0_c.jpg

Other than a newspaper clipping, probably the lowest on my collectibility list.

Wow, amazing piece and provenance!

The importance of Bill Carrigan to baseball and Babe Ruth in particular can’t be overstated…

‘The most important event of the 1914 season was the purchase, at Carrigan’s urging, of pitchers Ernie Shore and Babe Ruth from Baltimore of the International League. Although Ruth gave his skipper a lot of credit for his development as a player, Carrigan was humble in his own assessment: “Nobody could have made Ruth the great pitcher and great hitter he was but himself. He made himself with the aid of his God-given talents.” Old Rough did allow that his protégé needed quite a bit of discipline, and Carrigan was there to provide it, even rooming with Ruth for a time. Carrigan caught Ruth in his pitching debut, on July 11.’

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill-carrigan/

Are any of the players more rare to find than the others?

Thanks su much for sharing. I think I had heard this story before, but I get confused by fellow T206 subject Jack Warhop who gave up Ruth's first and second home runs of his career.

For sure. Carrigan took Ruth under his wing and was a mentor/father figure to him. On top of that, Carrigan managed the Sox to back to back championships in 1915 and 1916.

Prince Hal, it's hard to say on which are most rare because so many have been in hiding for so long. With no PSA grading, most were happy to collect a handful or try for the whole set. In fact, in past year, a good number of nearly full sets have gone to auction houses (sometimes 67/100 right up to 99/100). You can check PSA and BGS pop reports to see how many have been graded for each (although note again that PSA grading much much tougher on these and getting vast bulk of the grading for them now).

Two that come to mind with very few PSA graded are Joe Wood and Hal Chase but plenty of others. Few of the team cards graded by PSA so far. Most non-HOFers have one or none graded by PSA. We'll see if that changes but HOFers certainly more likely to get graded so far.

Pictures
 

Here are scans of a couple more. Chase and Wheat. I am not sure, but I don't think that I have seen this image of Zack Wheat throwing the ball anywhere else.

Actually Joe, Mendelsohn used that photo of Zach for his m101 cards, along with several others from m101-2, and it also served as the basis of his Cracker Jack cards. A classic for sure.
https://photos.imageevent.com/imover...m1014wheat.jpg

Here's one of my favorites that I bought over thirty years ago, with two HOF arbiters:
https://photos.imageevent.com/imover...evans-klem.jpg

Picked this up yesterday, especially hard to find in good condition Boston team, with Speaker and Wood, Hooper and Carrigan...that's Jake Stahl in center, I believe was manager.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1695055155

The Evans/Klem is next on my list.

Cracker Jack, yes! But check out the subtle differences in the M101-5, taken a millisecond later.

Another fascinating angle is that many claim the Alexander and Schalk versions as their rookie "cards." And Alexander's sales value reflects this. Of course, others claim these are not "cards" so the dispute will go on. I believe there are also claims that the Speaker is his rookie "card." Here's a raw Alex with holes that just sold for $735 on ebay.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1695132683

Does anyone know if psa will grade these if they have been glued to a paper backing?

PSA has rejected (No Grade result) cards which have evidence of scrapbook remanence affixed to even what seems a clean back.

That sucks.. I sent it in today. Well.. I'm out $100.

Will Beckett grade with scrapbook remanence?

If they reject it and refuse to grade it, they often won't charge you. There's probably some exceptions to this rule, but it has been my experience. For example, from time to time my pack-pulled 1987T are ruled to not meet the minimum size requirement, and they don't charge me.

So you might not actually be out $100 if they won't slab it.

That’s right, you should not be charged, however you’ll be out the cost to ship.

Rejected or no grade? Those are different results. Scrapbook residue can result in no numerical grade, the fee charged and an Auth designation.

I guess "altered" is only for adding tape to close up tears (common with this issue)?

One might say that this issue is so "hot" now we have a new sepia reprint listing at eBay....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145313370455

Those are some pretty awesome looking reprints! Worth considering…

The seller of those reprints tells me they are indeed accurate size (about 8 x 10) and the images are off real ones that have been for sale--so they have the usual nicks and tears and creasing (at least in appearance). So they look more real if far from pristine. From the backs, though, you can tell for sure they are not real.

Absolutely love 'em

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...w702-h963-s-no

If this isn't the best image it is at least tied for first.... Clark Griffith....and 8 x10 size....why I got into these, though belatedly...

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1695471630

Is there a preference for the tab at the top to be attached?

Would this be a " value added " feature or is this a non issue in collecting?

there is no tab

the first few produced in 1909 (Cobb, LaJoie, Bresnahan etc.) have a slightly different design with date and Sporting News at very top but it is not a "tab"

My one and only. Net54 member sold me his double a few years ago after he upgraded. Wish it was signed though. that's a cool piece above. Attachment 590353

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

Thank you Greg!

I appreciate the clarification!

My one and only, probally would just grade a 1.
https://photos.imageevent.com/rucker.../IMG_0196.jpeg

Thanks for sharing these images. These supplementals are pretty special. I know that they have recently risen in value, but I think that they still have some upside, especially on the top shelf players like Cobb, Jackson and Wagner. They are pretty rare to find in decent condition.

Question for you supplements guys- how much, if any, does the recent rise in M101-2 values, which I think is almost exclusively due to PSA slabbing (legitimizing) them, impact the value and desirability of their rarer M101–1 predecessors?

I feel like M101-1 and M101-2 Sporting News are for completely different collectors. Prices vary significantly for each, as do the images. Both are amazing sets IMHO.

An 1899 Nap Lajoie M101-1 went for over $2K in August and was a BEAUTIFUL card. That same $2K has much more buying power of the M101-2 set. I personally love M101-2 because of the action images, which for their release between 1909 and 1913 made you feel like you were on the field watching a moment from a game, when games were much more difficult to get to in that time period.

That said, I foresee rising prices of M101-1 just like M101-2, if more could actually come to market like has been the case with M101-2 in recent years, and thus create more demand and buyers.

I agree that both will continue to be more appreciated and appreciate, and the M101-1 will garner more attention due to the rise and acceptance of M101-2. Personally I have been stunned by the beautiful imagery of some of the M101-2 set, many of which have been in rough condition due to size and paper stock, like the M101-1s have. In fact, i purchased the recent Grover Alexander “rookie” from that set and paid for it.

The majesty of the M101-1s in nice condition remains very underappreciated. The portraits are stunning in person. I had both of these Wagners in my collection for years. Never gave two thoughts about the M101-2 until the recent price realizations. There is still no comparison, not just because of the significance of Wagner’s first ML “card” appearance and biography, but because the image is so beautiful in person.

I have come to like the M101-2 much more lately than i had! (Mine does have some pencil notation on the back but the supplement is very well preserved).

Hoping the M101-2 success causes PSA to grade the M101-1s someday.

Very nice. Yes, I imagine the M101-1s are next...of course, players in suits and not in uniforms may dissuade some...although one favorite M101-2s that I have is the Tigers team all in suits...including Ty with bow-tie... Bow-Ty?

The Alexander "rookie card" remains debated but since I have one I firmly back the idea....prices certainly have weighed in on that.....some claim the same for the Speaker........

If PSA slabs it, it rises in value.

https://live.staticflickr.com/7609/2...8e7be664_b.jpg

I hope you are right, because I just cut a deal for this. I will post in pick-ups thread when in hand

Looks like those Beckett jumbo holders are better than horrid earlier ones. One reason prices have spiked for PSA graded m101-2s is they look so much better in their holders than earlier Beckett ones. Although far harsher grading....

Great card! Opinions are my own and do not constitute investment advice, nor should be taken as such. The risk of loss in buying and selling sports cards can be substantial. You should therefore carefully consider whether such activity is suitable for you, your circumstances, your risk appetite, and financial resources. I hereby absolve myself from all future claims of responsibility. So on and so forth… ;)

Great card...yeah I call it a card. If PSA graded these things they would be worth more but nice addition.

Funny, I had a M101-1 Griffith with me at the show in Oaks this past weekend and the representative for Beckett told me they don't grade them...never have. When I showed him my M101-1 Billy Hamilton graded by Beckett, he then said...we can give it a shot, but if they don't do it, I still had to pay to have it shipped back.

I still have the Griffith.

I have much to say about my journey with the M101-2s .... as someone who comes from the 1989 bowman generation, I used to loathe anything larger than 2.5x3.5" ...

then I learned of the M101-2s. Gahh, it was love at first sight, especially when a near set landed at an auction house. I watched like a hawk, and felt pretty good about my chances on landing it within a reasonable price so I could then break apart and sell the pieces I didn't want. (The Joe Jackson and Wagner/Cobb were my two favorites).

Then it kept going up & up & up.

I ended up not being the winner, and was about as heartbroken as you can be over losing an auction. Then, they started popping up on ebay - the buyer was breaking them up too! I snagged the 2 I wanted, along with the WaJo.


On the Jackson & Wagner/Cobb, they are graded as "authentic" and didn't get a numerical grading, because the auction house (REA I think?) was told they'd get a low number, and don't have any reason to believe they were altered.

Oh, and the Wagner/Cobb was the first one graded, and I believe the Jackson was second or third.

https://tanmanbaseballfan.com/wp-con...7/cobbwags.jpg

https://tanmanbaseballfan.com/wp-con...cksonm1012.jpg

My gosh ... they are beautiful.

This one is altered, as it had sporting news cut out and placed in the top center ... I didn't even notice it until a while after I had it. To the 10 year old back in 1911 who probably did it - well done.

http://mycollectionofcards.com/baseb...320/wajosm.jpg

So naturally, after my eyes were opened to how amazing oversized pieces can be for display, I heard of a Nap Lajoie rookie from something called an M101-1 ... like I'll ever see one of those, heh.

Then someone posted a Wagner. Jaw. Dropped. A 19th century Wagner rookie? What on earth? I had no idea it existed. I was able to make a deal on one years ago, and it is one of my most prized pieces in my very small collection.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GjnLcZ4yQY4/maxresdefault.jpg

So yeah, PSA - get on the M101-1 ball! :p:p:p

Ha, ha, PSA somehow missed the "altered" on that WaJo...

WOW! Those are AMAZING!!! I have the M101-2 Wagner by himself. I hope to someday get the Cobb/Wagner and Jackson

Dodger Mike, they are both available on eBay....for a price......

Well…those are certainly some aspirational prices!! Lol

More from the Doc Steen collection…

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...7e8707f9_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...304b7259_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...1a5fc169_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...8c5269c0_b.jpg