Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters
 

I’ll just let the photo speak for itself….incredible.

Holy :eek:

Incredible cards. The Joe Jackson is estimated to have a value of 250K. What I find amazing and shocking is that the 68 Topps Mantle (PSA 10) is estimated to have a value of 300K. If I had a PSA 10 Mantle, I'd trade it in a heartbeat for the Jackson.

Holy crap. That is just, well, magnificent. Hard to believe there’s another complete set out there.

Interesting note, the cards will be auctioned off individually and as a set. Whichever produces more & is the way the cards will sell.

Interesting way to do it and obviously it is the best way for their seller.

All the cards are amazing of course the Joe Jackson and the Cobb are the show stoppers to me.

The condition of them all is amazing and the colors truly POP

Link to full auction for higher resolution pictures and description:
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...50066-189013.s

Thank you for posting that link. I hadn’t had time to look for it when I first saw that photo.

I’m really glad to see those cards in SGC slabs. Putting them in any other holder would’ve been a tremendous disservice.

Call me crazy - but wouldn't these draw higher prices as individual lots rather than an entire set?

They know their audience.

Maybe! My experience is that's traditionally been the case, although only a Sith deals in absolutes.

At the same time, there are some AHs that are starting to run tandem auctions, whereby you can bid on them as a complete set, or individually. Whichever fetches the highest price wins. So you could be the highest bidder on an item, but if the complete set draws a higher price, then you still lose.

Somewhat shockingly, from time to time the complete set will win.

So interesting
 

Just discussed with Toby at the East Coast national that these used to show up from time to time, but I hadn't seen any offered publicly in some time! Some of the most incredible cards of the era imo.

Amazing set of course but oddly to me no Wagner, Mathewson, Lajoie, Collins.

The only thing that would amaze me more is a complete set of 1912 Boston Garters.


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Matty, Lajoie and Collins were included in the 1912 BG set and in the 1914 (I think there is some uncrtainty as to this date) sepia BG set, so it makes sense that these three stars weren't also in the 1914 color BG set. Interestingly, WaJo and Speaker are the only two players who appear in both the 1912 BG and 1914 color BG sets. My guess as to the reason for Wags' absence in all three BG sets is because the issuer declined to pay Wags for the use of his image.

Over/Under
 

What's your guess, fellas?

Once again, I am completely mystified by the grades on these. Beautiful front and back, particularly given their rarity, whatever justification one will come up with for the ridiculously low grades only renders the grading system employed a joke in my estimation. There has to be a better way, one that actually makes sense.

In case anuone was wondering...
 

They are real and they are spectacular!
-- Teri Hatcher

Then again, on cards like these, the grade is sort of beside the point.

There's staining and paper loss all over the place on the backs. The fronts look amazing but the grades look perfectly appropriate to me given the backs.

They pretty much all have some paper loss and/or back damage. I suspect that's why they are graded so low.

Naturally, this gets us back to the subject of many other posts around here around how to adjust for back damage, and people who love buying cards with back damage because they can get them on the cheap.

But I'm guessing these won't go for cheap. If we're taking shots in the dark, I'm guessing $500k+. But then again, it could go for a looooooot more.

Of course. Then again, what does that say about the system?

Assuming heritage submitted these, I have to believe they got the best possible grades that could be assigned to the cards. Their pics typically under state defects.

Weren't they though!

Winner, winner chicken dinner. You nailed it.

OK, so we have maybe 5% loss/residue and some staining on the worst backs, and eye-popping fronts--you know, the important side by a factor of what, 10 or 100 in relation to the backs? If that justifies 1.5s all around for these extreme rarities that are basically never seen in ANY condition, I rest my case. I will go to my grave believing that is a flawed grading system, one that everyone accepts now, but that really doesn't make much sense in the real world. They would all be at least 3s or 4s if I were king of the forest. That would leave a ton of room for any surfacing in much better shape, while not lumping them in with ones driven over by tanks in the mud on the downside. Not trying to pick any fights here, and I totally get where we are. Of course, I should just let it go, but someone many years ago pulled this absurd system out of their butts and decreed it to be so, and it will never seem logical to me.

On some level, I agree with you. The fronts on these cards pretty much all look spectacular and they SEEM like they should get 3s and 4s.

Respectfully, I've got to disagree with you Hank. The whole idea of grading (in my mind) is that a grade is assigned to a whole card that survived in a certain type of condition.

A '57 Bel Air with an immaculate body and a destroyed interior is not in showroom condition, just because she looks pretty on the outside. Following your logic, a skinned card should grade high because the front looks great while the rear side is completely missing.

The inside of a fence is just as important to the security of a property as the outside. Its all a complete package in my mind. If the backs on these cards have paper loss, then they are graded properly as-is. What if the front had paper loss and the backs were immaculate?

I'm betting the over.

To my thinking, your examples reinforce my point, Jim. If the Heritage cards are 1.5s, where's the room below them for skinned backs or extreme paper loss to the fronts? No matter how horrible condition a card is in, you have only a half grade to move down from those in the auction, which everybody agrees are super-duper wowza. I just don't see the logic in that. But you guys have beaten me down, I'm going to accept what is and leave it at that.

Screw the flips; I want the WaJo!

I had never seen the backs of these cards before. Here's one of the cards in the auction and you can see the back damage that resulted in the low technical grade.

Not much damage at all, presents very well.

I agree. They are beautiful cards.

I would imagine that with increased paper loss, we’d be looking at 1’s or A’s.

Boston Garter
 

150%. I would not sell these cards as both a set and individual cards. It could potentially limit the degree of bidding intensity for the major cards like Jackson, Cobb, Johnson & Speaker. As a collector (and bidder), it is extremely frustrating bidding strong on a particular item, knowing full well I might be wasting my time since the card may ultimately sell as a piece of the entire set. That said, I do believe the individual lot aggregate will best the full set price - happens 90%+ of the time when an auction house pits individual lots vs. the complete set.

Boston Garter
 

In the grand scheme, grades do not matter versus the extreme rarity of these Garters. The beautiful aesthetics and right to own a copy for such iconic cards supersedes any technical assessment. As the saying goes - try and find another one!

It's sgc so nothing....they "know" their (limited) audience

Surely it is for exactly those cards that look to be in great condition in a photo but aren't in reality that third-party grading is most useful, no?

I have no problem with TPGs, Glenn, I just think the system is too loose at the bottom and too tight at the top. But that's just me, so I'm bowing out here.

You’ve got to be kidding me 😮 😍😍😍😍

It seems most everyone has strong feelings about the graders, and I don’t think anyone faults you for feeling like there’s some real room for improvement.

At the same time, pleasing even most of us is probably an impossible task.

But maybe here’s one way to go:

1) Sub grades for each of the four corners.
2) The surface is now divided into four quadrants, with subgrades for each, plus let’s double down with those grades for each zone on each side, front and back.
3) Edges are now broken down into 8 zones, 2 per side, with subgrades for each zone.
4) Centering for both front and back is disclosed, down to 0.01% precision. And for top/bottom and left/right. Tilting is also measured, again to 0.01% precision.
5) Print defects, snow, fisheyes, etc. are all identified, counted and disclosed, with a listing for each instance identified.
6) Any and all alterations, trims, recoloration, etc. is identified and disclosed with perfect fidelity on an enumerated list, including detail regarding the location of said adjustments.

Bonus: the grading scale will now institute gradations down to 0.01 points for each element. And each of the subgrades will be weighted, with the final grade being a product of each of the weighted valued for the subgrades.

Graders will also be required to write a narrative of one page single space typed to justify each of the subgrades, including factors considered and weighed when making their evaluation. Plus a mandatory essay to extol the virtues of the card, including the degree to which it makes their hearts soar upon beholding it. If not on the flip, then at least available by scanning a QR code on the flip.

Turnaround times will be 2 days or less, including shipping times.

Fees will be $10 or less for each card. Large discounts for bulk orders and vintage cards. The older the card, the bigger the discount.

Shipping is free.

Forgot to mention: Slabs will be indestructible. So no more cracking and resubmitting. Or cracking at all. Once inside a slab with all of these details, it stays there forever.

Not so sure about this business model...

"Fees will be $10 or less for each card. Large discounts for bulk orders and vintage cards. The older the card, the bigger the discount."



...Those Boston Garters are fantastic. Will be fun to watch.

Unfortunately for us type collectors even the lowly commons are, in the words of the great Bob Eucker, "just a bit outside..."

Tip Top Wagner
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...Auction-120115

I know I am holding out for my Boston Garter type card to be from the set where the players are shown in their underwear.

Brian

à la Jim Palmer?

LOL, well done. You should create an auction house business model next!

Looks like the individuals finished ahead of the group $650,653.20 to $630,000. Congrats to all who were able to add one (or more) to their collection. It’s been 25 years since I owned one of these (I traded away a Walter for a ‘14 CJ Jackson, thanks John Spencer!). I am thrilled to add this one to my collection!

Great card. Congratulations Aaron!
.

Great pickup.

They are beautiful cards

Thanks Leon & Jeff. I’m hoping some other members snagged some and they’ll show and/or tell.

Congrats Aaron. Those are amazing looking pieces and Baker is a great one to own

I bid for the set in extended hours. The bid said I was winning. I waited 30 minutes and no bids. The website said I won the set, same this morning and later that morning it said I lost. I understood that the bid on the set had to be higher than the total of individual lots. I didn’t understand I had to add up all the individual lots myself in the middle of the night. Other auction houses tell you if the individual lots are ahead. I would have bid higher had I known. If it got too high there were individual cards I would have gone for. I felt misled and deserved better treatment after bidding more than 600K for the entire set and not learning until late morning that I “lost.”. The consignor lost too. It’s a bad day for me, for Heritage and the consignor — but a good one for the good people who ended up being deemed high bidder on the individual lots as I had no warning I needed to bid again and the website said otherwise.

They didn't call you? That sucks big time. Would've been on the phone to make sure, but hindsight is always just that.

Aaron that's a fantastic looking Baker, Congrats!

That's tragic. I was curious how that was going to work, obviously it didn't and that's unfortunate for such a historical offering and you as a bidder. Not only were you willing to buy the whole set but because of the format you don't even walk away with one. Hindsight, but an explanation on the process either on the website or in private with high dollar bidders like yourself would have been helpful.

I watched this unfold last night and was cringing for the high bidder on the entire set lot. Heritage screwed this up so badly it was impossible to believe. Not only, as Powell said, could you not tell from bidding on the various BG lots as to whether the individual lots or the full set was ahead in the bidding, but the full set high bidder couldn't bid any more once no one bid for 30 mins on the full set lot -- the lot was closed. So Powell had to watch as the individual lots were still allowed to take more bids, making it impossible for him to raise his full set bid and defeat the cumulative total of the 12 individual lots. If I was the leader on the Cobb card, but because the cumulative total of the 12 lots was 10K less than the full set bid -- which was now closed -- I would have just bid up the remaining open individual lots in order for the total of the 12 lots to surpass the amount of the full set high bid. Which is exactly what happened: the Rabbit Maranville card received late action solely to allow the individual lots to surpass the full set bid. I'm astounded that Heritage could have screwed this up so badly.

Congrats Aaron!

I owned one of the Tris Speakers many years ago.

Sorry Powell…beyond frustrating how heritage doesn’t tell bidders real time which is winning, set or individual. Other AH’s do…I texted someone I know at heritage yesterday, and they told me the bidder has to check on their own. Great AH, but that was an unusually rare fail for them.

They did not call me. I went to bed with my account saying I won. No one called
me. I consigned my “Wall of Cards” T206 set to Heritage and have bought countless treasures from Heritage. In the morning my account said I won. I learned from this board that I “lost” and I checked again on my Heritage account it changed from won to lost. No one called me. Now I learn after I was locked out on the set and went to sleep with the web saying I won they let individual lots bid to beat me with no chance to compete. I’m disgusted with the shabby way I was treated and the consignor should be livid.

They did not call me. I went to bed with my account saying I won. No one called
me. I consigned my “Wall of Cards” T206 set to Heritage and have bought countless treasures from Heritage. In the morning my account said I won. I learned from this board that I “lost” and I checked again on my Heritage account it changed from won to lost. No one called me. Now I learn after I was locked out on the set and went to sleep with the web saying I won they let individual lots bid to beat me with no chance to compete. I’m disgusted with the shabby way I was treated and the consignor should be livid.

I thought it was kind of an auction house etiquette to call and confirm a bidder is "out" on a lot of this magnitude. But maybe that isn't the reality, just what I figured.
Sorry this happened to you.

I am the rightful winner of the set. The set closed ahead of the individual lots and I was declared the winner. There was no basis to permit bids on the individual lots after the set was sold to me and I could no longer bid on the set.
We’ll see if Heritage makes this right.

That is horrible. I was trying to figure out a way to make this work for both the set and the individual cards where there is lot-by-lot closing.

The only way I can think of is that the timer for the set and all the cards in the set has to be the same.

If a bid is placed on the set or any card, the timer resets for every card in the set and the full set.

It sounds annoying but I think that is the only way it is fair to both the set bidder (as we have seen) and the individual card bidders (because they could bid after their lot would have normally closed if they could now "beat" the set based on later bids on other cards).

Also, each lot involved needs to clearly state if the set or the individual cards are winning and what the aggregate individual total is vs. the full set bid.

I may not be explaining this well, and there may be a better way, but that's the only one I could come up with.

I have consigned millions of dollars worth of cards to Heritage and purchased millions in cards and other memorabilia from Heritage. I have found Chris and Derek to be extremely professional and have recommended them to many. As I now understand that the individual lots remained open after the set was sold to me those bids are legally a nullity. The set was sold to me clear and simple and fair and square. This is now fair to the consignor because the lot closed. I believe that Heritage is the best auction house in the world and will do the right thing.

Thanks,

Powell

They needed to keep all the lots open — the individual lots and the full set lot — until there were no bids on ANY of the lots for 30 mins. Such a moronic handling of such an expensive set of cards.

My suggestion (which calvindog summarized more clearly than me) was meant to try to avoid this happening in the future. I am very interested to see what happens now. It is a terrible situation for all parties involved.

L
 

Thanks Ryan, Jay, & Mike…

I haven’t seen a set vs. individual lots auction since the Mastro days. He did it in his auctions BUT there was no lot by lot basis for closing (no timer), those auctions went into the next morning. It is a terrible idea for a set vs. individuals to go with any kind of lot by lot closing. There’s no way for the set bidder to up his bid later (Powell’s case). It’s just a terrible format.

Today I was confirmed as the “winner” of the Baker, see below.

I agree. As I was watching your lead slip away last night I thought that they should have closed the individual lots at the same time as the full set lot was closed. In my mind you won the set (and I’m begging the usual Net 54 lawyers who will surely flood this thread with 5000 posts about the various legal angles to do so on another thread). My experience with Heritage is that they very well may do the right thing here. However, by doing so they will cost their consigner money by canceling numerous single lot bids. They should make that difference up to the consigner and declare Powell the set winner. That’s really the only fair way to resolve this.

Edited to add: the single lot winners should also be compensated somehow as they would be harmed as well by this resolution.

Yes. Much like the fine art world HA should have had a direct line to Powell and other set bidders keeping them updated as the auction progressed and allowed them to spend more money. Common sense says once the AH sets the terms it's their responsibility to manage it. There should have been a proxy representative for any interested set bidders who were communicating every minute in the last half hour and managing the difference between the set/individual delta.
Furchrisakes, the guy is willing to spend 600k plus with your AH you'd think a little personal service would be in order.
I think Powell has a case as the winner, fortunately this is Lichtmans wheelhouse. Unfortunately if he wins folks like Aaron lose through no fault of their own, nice pick up Aaron btw.
Now it's a mess, losers would be Powell, single bidders, consigners, etc.

I feel terrible for the individual lot “winners” but it’s actually very simple. The
set lot closed and I was declared the winner. The hammer fell. The post sale bids are a nullity. I have an authentic Joe Jackson Boston Garter, a 1914 Herzog and a 2012 Boston Garter. I am happy to work out sales to the bidders on those two and even sell my 1912 BG if those bidders are interested to mitigate this problem.
I feel strongly that I didn’t do anything wrong and once the set sold it sold. There was offer and acceptance. I was told by the web the auction closed I went to sleep. Thank you everyone for informing me as to what happened.

.

Well, they better figure it out soon because it is a two-day auction that closes tonight. Once the invoices go out and people start paying, it's going to make things much more complicated.

Its says “not sold” now but that’s not what it said last night and this morning. My account identified the set in my win column and then changed it later Saturday morning

Heritage
 

Maybe all the people who had high bids should pay and then Heritage can charge them some sort of a penalty as well so they do better than the consignor...as long they come out ok...Jerry

Really an awful outcome for many. It will be interesting to see what Heritage deems is the correct path to take. In years gone by this forum probably would have had a helluva chat exchange going on while the clock was ticking on these Boston Garter lots. Not griping Leon, just waxing nostalgic.:)

According to HA Web Tips (linked below at end):

Heritage Live FAQ:
‘How do I know if I won the lot?

When the lot closes a message in green indicating you won will be displayed (see example below). In addition, you can check the item status in the "Realized Prices" tab.

You Won!’

HOWEVER, further down this reference page under Bidding Guidelines it states:

‘If you are the successful high bidder when the auction closes, you will receive an Email confirmation immediately following the auction followed by an E-mail invoice in the next few days for your winnings.‘

https://sports.ha.com/c/ref/web-tips...nes-incrementsAttachment 591429Attachment 591429

Do these conflict in this scenario??

Perhaps the most equitable thing HA can do is refund any money paid so far, declare no true winner given conflicting communications to the individual and lot buyers, and reset the individual and lot auction, which will give everyone a fair and fully informed chance at bidding again.

Three things are true here: this is entirely Heritage’s fault by not knowing how to run this particular type of auction (individual lots/full set competing simultaneously), Powell is a huge consigner and customer, and the consigner of the BGs lost money due to Heritage’s error. At the very least, Heritage has to re-do the auction, although at the time Powell was prevented from bidding anymore he was the rightful winner. If I was in charge, I’d give the cards to Powell and compensate all the other parties greatly, although it pains me to say that as Aaron is a great dude and an innocent party here.

If Leland’s was capable of doing the right thing by not trying to force payment from the winner (and my client) of the Tom Brady “final TD pass football” which wasn’t his final TD pass when he announced his comeback the day after the auction end, somehow I think Heritage is capable of being fair here as well.

I received the invoice/email at 3 a.m. this morning for the Baker.

Powell, I got your voicemail. I will call you back later today. This really sucks. That’s a serious f-up that the set auction closed while the individual lots stayed open. I agree, if you were the winner when the set lot closed, you should be the winner- it closed and you won. Plain and simple