National: Any Seller's perspectives?
 

OK, so it was hot and crowded and exciting and the food choices sucked and there were super cool things to see and not enough places to sit.

Any sellers on the board care to weigh in and pass along their experience and what they heard first hand from other vintage sellers? What was hot (besides the room itself)? What was cold? Did you see young bucks moving over from Modern, or was it still a largely middle aged to older crowd of buyers?

[Interested in the opinions of folks who were actually there, and not board readers like myself weighing on what they assume it must have been like based on the photos and stories they have read. No offense intended.]

Most, but not all, vintage sellers said they had really great shows.

Everything was a bit too expensive for me but I picked up a few things. From my perspective, the kids are still only collecting for dollars. It is what it is. Maybe I am wrong, but that is the way it looked to me. A few youngsters doing vintage but 95% just gambling with new stuff....
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JJust back from the show--needless to say, a outstanding show--I did well selling (mostly pricey vintage) for me the buying across the table was best ever--alot of times the person wants high VCP leaving me no room and I have to pass--but I guess I got lucky at this show and buying was great=One of my favorite sales was selling a $5400 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth to a 14 year old youngster--He was so professional in the whole process--I couldnt believe he was 14 counted out the $100's like a pro--everyone at the booth was amazed--Anyway sold alot of big boys and bought some too--favorite was a 1914 Cracker Jack Honus Wagner that looks like a 4 or 5 (Beautiful)--so it was nice to see some young buyers looking and buying vintage cards.

Mentioned this in another thread but my sales were amazingly good considering my table /section was behind a giant wall for some corporate company. I guarantee a large number of attendees didn't even know my section of tables existed.

When we were signing up for next year, we increased from one table to two. Guy at the table selection area told me "we would rather you not sign up for two; there are hundreds of people who still need tables". I told him to save that story for the next corporate booth that wants to buy in.

Where does a 14-year old get $5400 from?

Rich Parents, most likely!

I'd guess working for about an hour selling Italian ices at a convention center without Air Conditioning!
;)

That was the part of Don's post that jumped off the screen for me as well. I don't recall making too many $5,000+ purchases at age 14 (even adjusted for inflation). :D But good for the kid putting the money into a classic Ruth card instead of a modern flavor of the week. If he keeps the card, I think he will be very happy with that decision a few decades from now.

I was a first time vintage dealer at the show and lucked into a relatively small table with four cases. I sold nearly all of my 50s slabs of mays, aaron, clemente, mantle. There is so much of this stuff in the room it comes down selling for $25 less than the other guys which I was willing to do. Was a little disappointed in my T206 sales although I did sell a Cobb and plenty of others. In hindsight I probably should have dedicated two cases to them instead of one. Sold a good chunk of my 52 Red Mans and 56 yellow basepaths. Did very well on raw 53 Topps high number and oddly 1951 Topps red and blue backs. Several Cleveland fans wiped out my oddball Indians stuff. It was interesting seeing the deals that walked up to the table. I bought some nice things for my PC and missed on some things I could/should have bought. I also bought some stuff I really didn’t want because the price was good. Learned a lot and would be better prepared next time. Overall it was a memorable experience and tons of fun.

I guess so, what with all those child labor laws still being in place.

Maybe dad put him up to it (with dad's money) assuming a kid would do better with a decent guy seller.

Lots of young collectors have their bullet proof box full of Benjamins and/or Luka cards...and other high end flashy stuff, but many also buy pre-war.

Just got back to storage this morning, but I was busy the entire show with lots of T and E card sales and lots of Goudey and similar sales.

The most exciting thing that I saw at this National is that the kids have returned to collecting and many collectors have returned to their incomplete sets.

It's my 39th show and it will finish at somewhere around my best to fifth best National, depending on my followups in the next week or two. I consider all sales emanating from the National as sales for that National but I cut off after 2 weeks.

Looking forward to next year in Cleveland.

Steve_NY

Not likely. Five will get you ten that the kid and daddy put it on feebay or in a big AH in the next 30 days. My guess is they are both flippers and not buy it and holders.

What I think is happening is that the kid is a real collector (but not vintage and not at that level), so he talked the father into buying the Ruth card and then selling it a month or so later.
I recall suggesting a similar idea many years ago for my father to buy the T206 Wagner or the 1952 Mantle but he said no. :eek:

I would be willing to bet that the kid leveraged himself into the deal by pulling and or savvy buying/trading of modern cards and got to the point he had a bank roll from doing so..They are way more business/card savvy than we give them credit for.

This was my 14th National as a dealer and it was middle of the road for me.

I mostly deal in autographs and memorabilia and this show for the most part did not present nearly as many customers as it historically does for these items or either they just missed my table. I had a decent location but few vintage/tobacco cards so the table was mostly just walked past.

The last two Nationals I had purchased large collections of 1950's/60's baseball just before the National and did very well.

All of that said, I was still only about a grand short of my expected dollar volume and my number of sales although not extremely high in number averaged almost $500 per sale with the vast majority being 1 item sales.

I did notice some younger collectors looking for vintage cards, autographs, and tickets. One 18 or so year old young man toyed with buying a 1947 World Series Game 1 Robinson Debut ticket in a PSA 4 holder for $3000. He wanted to trade a 1957 WS ticket autographed by Aaron + cash for it but wanted too much trade value for the deal to work for me. Another 14 year old was working on finding autographed Y.A. Tittle items to make a framed display. Other youngsters were excited to look at items that dated to 80-100 years ago.

But I agree with others that the vast majority of teen collectors are looking at the hobby as a money making venture only.

We like to kind of look down on and say that a lot of the kids are just looking at all this as a money making venture but there are several posters and long time posters on this board that look at pre-war exactly the same way. Id say if 1% of the current under 18 crowd in this hobby turn to vintage and pre-war then its a win.

This is probably exactly what happened.

The hotel trades nights are an absolute mad house of people under 20 and dotted with people under 30.

This is the future of the hobby so we need these kids to enjoy the hobby, even if they’re just in it to make money.

Very interesting takeaways

Especially about the youths

What's wrong with that? Doesn't the hobby need future dealers as well as future collectors?

Just remember it wasn't so long ago that most of us worried about the future of the hobby. It seems to me that it will be just fine. Ebb and flow as always. The future seems brighter to me now. Several of those kids will find their way to vintage and all will be well.

I started as a kid by collecting contemporary cards. Didn't we all? In spite of the fact that resident Net54 sage Ted Z. started out by opening packs containing Ruths and Wagners, I'm still guessing he may have been hoping for a Larry Jansen or Snuffy Stirnweiss! :)

Nothing wrong with it. Just stating what I believe to be the case.

Probably flipped some parallels he won in a break. That’s how they do it now.

Lime green Izod with the collar turned-up.

No chance his parents are not wealthy. They can't meet the rent, but he's in his room with his Babe Ruth card.

I would never discount new money moving into pre-war, which is imho true collecting, realize old school collectors might have paid $500 for a Green Cobb, and a bonafide new collector would have to pay 15k for the same experience, would you be willing to do the same to build your collection?

The more things change the more they stay the same. I used to flip cards for a profit all the time. How I financed my collecting as a kid. I bought 'em at an antique store I'd found that sold cards 12 for a buck, and sell them for a quarter or two at school, flip the profits back into it.

$2000/hr pretending to be a humanoid robot on Tik Tok.

I think if you are paying $15k for a card it is more of an investment than a collection

Surely a rarity but my son used his saving from working at a local McDonald's (14's can work in PA) and cut lawns for 12 families in our neighborhood. He was into technology, not so much Dad's passion for vintage cards.... he bought 2 Bitcoin in the summer of 2017. It can be done, with focus.

I'd love to know that kids story - does he have one foot in modern where he could flip some cards to fund a purchase for an all-time great? Did Mom and Dad front him the money, or did he save over time? Definitely unique - I love those stories.

+100 to this! The 18 and under crowd these days is far more advanced than my generation of collectors in the 80's and '90's.... yes, I'm a product of the junk wax era but had an uncle who only bought 50'-70's era so had me always thinking about the relative rarity of the mid-century cards.

I'd suggest that more than 1% eventually take the leap - but that's just a feeling...

I concur with Chris. We both told the selection guy that corporate is squeezing out the little guys like us.

Our booth (Chris, Tim Newcomb, and I) was totally hidden by a huge 20 foot high wall of some corporate entity. No one looking at that monstrosity would have known there were small dealers behind it.

If Joe D., Jimmy Ryan and their partner are reading these posts they need to consider a few changes.
1. Move corporate to an area all its own, one that will not hide the small guys like us.
2. Put booth numbers at each booth.
3. Insure that air conditioning works. It was brutally hot the first three days.

I did sell a fair amount despite being hidden, but felt we all might have sold more if people had known we were there.

The corporate part of Chicago is out of control, but I suspect the Broggi cabal didn't give a damn since it appears that they wanted to go out with a financial windfall.

Cheers,
Mike

My 16 year old is one of those that has a bullet proof case and loves to haggle with older dealers. Yes he sells, and he buys. He loves to trade.

I collected as a kid in the late 80s and I don't remember a month going by where I didn't get the new Beckett magazine to see which of my cards had the little arrow pointing up next to it. I also remember selling 11 1989 Upper Deck Ken Griffey RCs for like $15 each to a dealer at a show - as a 14 year old I WAS RICH! It is a story I have recounted to my son many times.

These kids deal in much higher values than we did at the time. But for me I think its great. My son has learned so much about cost basis, profit margin, negotiation, buying low and selling high. I love it when i see him go toe to toe with some adult.

So while everyone loves to smack around kids who who walk around with those cases - look at the bigger picture. It really is a great thing for the hobby.

Separating the modern era corporate sideshows blasting music from the dealers with one or two small tables of vintage seems like such a ridiculous no-brainer and in everyone's best interests.. Hell, have a "Vintage Pavillion" or some demarcation like that steering people towards what they are coming for.

This new National committee will need to figure out what they actually want the show to be going forward (ie more fan experience, more corporate, more dealers, trade nights, etc,...)

It's going to be interesting to see how they compete with the new Fanatics National Show, that inevitably gets set up/

Ding ding ding! Wonderful idea. Keep all that corporate and modern nonsense far away from me.

That would be great it is better laid out with like things together and shouted out better
Overall These experiences are driving in more new Money and Youth into the hobby.
And Social Media they use and do Live events etc on helps get the message out about the Hobby

I love the pavilion idea. Put the corporate up front and the services (graders, autographs) at the back, and all of the card dealers in the center. The corporate people force everyone to walk thorugh their maze of whatever on the way in and out, the autograph pod people can wait in a dedicated area, maybe with chairs like a medical waiting room, and the card people can congregate in the middle. Problem solved.

I heard Clemente was one of the best sellers this year

I only deal in autographs. If I was setting up at a National, if there were separate sections for vintage cards and autographs/memorabilia, I'd rather have my autograph booth in the vintage card section. There obviously wouldn't be call for separate vintage and modern autographs/memorabilia sections, so I'd rather be found among the prewar cards! Not to mention it's just a nicer feeling being around that side of the hobby.

Perhaps to expand on Steve's Vintage Pavilion idea, how about having it for ALL things vintage, not just cards?

How great would it be if everything was segregated by category? A "Supply Corner" would be awesome, too. One time in Cleveland, I chanced upon a great dealer of supplies, The Baseball Card King out of Chicagoland. I bought some much-needed top loaders and soft sleeves for index cards--the kind that are a snug fit as opposed to having too much extra room. Both of these supplies are really difficult to come by. The next day, I decided that I should stock up more than I did, but do you think I could find the booth again? I'm not sure what happened, as I knew exactly where they were. Having a dedicated hobby supplies area would have avoided this.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the Corporations shell out big money for the square footage. Lose the Corporations pushing the new stuff and the National could be held in your local armory. It is an interesting time in the hobby. The card companies create scarcity by creating 1 of 1's and limited runs which creates a frenzy of buying and selling and more importantly moving cases and cases of product. The Corporations could give a rats arse about vintage, that supply is fixed. The Corporations want to push the latest rage. Case in point, on one of the recaps I saw a company Wild Card Inc. (https://www.wildcardtradingcards.com/). I can't recall a card with a production run over 50. 1 of 1's. Autographed cards with a run to 10. I believe the cards are college uniform only but you get the drift. The new stuff is just physical bitcoin, just don't get caught holding the bag. If you hate holding the bag just have the cards put into the Ebay Vault. Extraction fees are capped at only $50!

Vintage to the new collectors is old school, boring bonds. The auction houses primarily deal in vintage. The TPG's don't care, new or old, they get paid either way.

That is the beauty of the hobby. There is enough room at the trough for each collector's niche.


Other interesting things.

A protector for the slab (https://slabstrong.com/our-shop/). Extra protection for those of us who occasionally fall down elevator shafts. Interesting product.

Saw a video of a dealer, who was just cleaning cards for collectors before submission to a TPG. I wonder how many collectors who paid for that service.

Slab displays. Nothing new. (https://standupdisplays.co/collectio...om-card-stands). Kind of cool.

I would LOVE to see this!! If you've been to Nationals you know that booth numbers are difficult to spot and when there are several folks working a booth, some of them may not even be able to tell you a booth number so you can write it down for easy return. I always stock up on supplies myself---amazingly there are a couple of booths that sell at or slightly even below the best deals I can get on the internet. However, I always wait until the end of the show day to stock up so that I'm not carrying tons of heavy plastic with me...and inevitably, I spend more time than I care to admit just looking for their booth again when I try to do that last-minute shopping!

I'm not saying lose them, Dean, I am saying fix the floor plan so guys like Chris don't get walled off behind a corporate display and card collectors don't have to run all over the place dodging stuff they don't want to see.

As much as some of us buyers might like a dedicated supplies section, I could see supply dealers disliking being bunched together for the sake of too much competition in the same area.

No, you did not say lose the corporations. I apologize.

I have attended shows where the dealers complain about all the customers being in the autograph area. Autograph folks have FOMPS syndrome. Fear of Missing Player Signing. With ticket #500 in hand, FOMPS will hover around the autograph entrance until their number is called. PA systems in quite a few of the venues are notoriously awful and few have autograph update boards. So, one can understand why FOMPS hover. At the National, could you wonder the floor and hear which ticket numbers were called for a given player?

I like the idea. Given the reports of how few vintage dealers set up at the National, it might be difficult to fill an area with just vintage dealers. A promoter wants to sell tables, period. The spot could be used to sell fudge. Where does the fudge seller land? Fudge was invented in 1886, so vintage. At Chantilly, I have seen jewelry, window vendors (seriously), a guy hawking beef jerky and some cable thing. I am all for a breaker area. I could careless about that aspect of the hobby. Definitely, an autograph pavilion with a good sound system. Hopefully, the new promoters will listen to the various ideas.

What Don's not saying is the 14 year old also said he was "set up" down the hall as a dealer and he loved vintage in his case. This 14 year old was very smart and very tuned into the good stuff, for sure.

The promoters could pretend it isn't 1994 and set up an app to alert autograph customers where and when to go to the area.

I certainly did not think there were "few" vintage dealers set up at the National. I think at least half of the dealer booths were vintage only or had quite a bit of vintage.

It took me three days to find the fudge booth, tucked back where the access to the restaurant used to be, behind the corporate section not anywhere near any other dealers. I think its had more attention on this board than it did among attendees at the show.

Define investment, I'm a collector of pre-war and trying to build a respectable collection, 15k is the buy in for many of the big five e-cards. Adding a 14CJ Cobb is going to cost 3 times that, it takes serious commitment to be a pre-war collector nowadays, more than in the past.

What I mean is that many people who buy a a card at $15k or so, are just doing to sell it at a profit in a few years. Others, collectors like myself, while not investing, use the fact that the card will appreciate in value to justify the purchase, I may do the same in 3-4 years to finish a few sets I am working on. :-)

I think there are very few people, who buy a $15k card with no plans to sell at a profit, meaning they value the card at that price. I'd love a CJ 14 Cobb, and could pull money out of my Fidelity account to buy it, with out hurting myself too much financially, but I just can't see doing it. Perhaps the world has passed me by

The National - 3 years from now......
 

Interesting youtube discussion. The junk slab era. The trio mentions not only dividing the National into areas (ex. vintage vs modern) but by sport as well. Breaker boxes only for breakers. Those boxes will be loaded to fuel the hype. Sports card investing. Interesting times. I question whether this is going to end well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcaX77dPO3I

Don't many dealers have multiple sports for sale? Don't see how that would work. I'm sure there's more than a few who sell both vintage and new as well.

Modern is so dumb.

Why? When I was 12, and collecting 58Ts, they were all modern! Why can't the newer generations have their own cards, what else would you expect? And what else would you want, to keep the hobby fresh. Not to mention that it will be a gateway for many, when they start making real money, into vintage.

I have nothing against modern cards themselves. It was more an indictment of what they were talking about in the video. Everything is so complicated and convoluted now.

Time to break the monotony

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Heilmann.jpg

For many, many years the National has used the Priority Lottery system to sell booths.

Each year you have set up at the National counts as a year of Priority with 43 being the highest possible number since next year is National #43. There are 7 dealers who have that Priority.

Dealers select from the floor layout based on their number in the lottery when their priority comes up. The lottery is only within each priority year so if 20 dealers have a 25 number, those 20 cards are shuffled and called in order to pick and hence the term lottery is used.

There is no way under the current system to sub divide the floor into say vintage, memorabilia, or modern. When your turn comes up, you pick what you consider the best remaining available booth or booths based primarily on location to the front of the room.

Will the new management company change that process? Highly unlikely!

Is there any real reason other than inertia why the show cannot be split into different areas in different rooms? Comicon takes the entire convention center and uses every bit of it. Why not put discrete activities, like autographs or breaks or livestream areas into ancillary conference rooms? The people who want that stuff are gonna go for it regardless and the people who don't care about it had a hard time finding dealers, from what I have heard.

Also, the National needs an all-inclusive app. If they want more corporate booths and more interactive stuff, they need a truly interactive map so people can find it all. That would also resolve the issue of putting specific elements in different areas: as long as they are on the app and you can find them, you will. All tickets and badges should be strictly phones, no more of these fucking lanyards or wristbands or waiting in lines for clerical types to fish out packets from a bucket. As for the autographs, I heard that was a real horror show for people and a real zoo atmosphere as a result. The National app could integrate a scheduling function like medical labs use. You check in with your phone and they ping you when your time comes up. Hell, that's how I order at Shake Shack: input at the kiosk and wait for a text instead of hovering around the pickup area. If a player is dragging his ass like Kareem Abdul Jabbar playing defense, no need to stand there for hours waiting.

And while I am in Mr. Helper mode, if the show really is growing past the size of the Rosemont facility, it needs to go to Las Vegas. The Sands Expo Center and the Las Vegas Convention Center each can provide over a million square feet of contiguous space. The former is part of the Venetian, which is a non-union facility. There are 20,000+ hotel rooms in walking distance in an area that is as safe at midnight as at noon, the airport is one of the world's busiest and largest, and there is interstate access literally to the front door of the venue. Oh, and did I mention all-night bars and world-class dining with everything from fast food to Michelin starred restaurants? Plus, lots of fun somewheres for the wife and kids to piss off to while daddy is at the show.

The ONLY reason Vegas is not in the rotation is that the venue owners are not desperate enough to throw bribes at the dealers and offer the show runners a free or nearly free space. If the criteria for show venues revolves around a free space, of course the options are limited to venues desperate for the business.

Any of these are all larger in exhibition space (contiguous ?) than the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center:


Attachment 583025

Here are the ones I thought would work. A rotation that includes the possibilities of Anaheim, Atlanta, Atlantic City, Chicago, Cleveland, Dallas, Las Vegas, and Orlando would get reasonable churn in material and local customers, and it would mostly be in highly accessible transport hubs.

Las Vegas
I'm only looking at the LVCC since I'm lazy.

There are two spaces around 600ksf, plus another that's basically two 450ksf spaces stacked one on top of another.

https://i.postimg.cc/8PHf7T72/LVCC1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/P5VLMKzK/LVCC2.jpg



Orlando
The OCCC has the most straight-line space of any. Halls A and B are 640ksf, tack on Hall C for another 100ksf+, and if that's not enough then Hall D has another 150ksf+, as does the adjoining Hall E should what's listed so far be inadequate.

https://i.postimg.cc/0N6zXmVv/OCCC.jpg



Atlanta
Please. Just please. Get it over with already.

Atlanta has the most contiguous space, if in a horseshoe shape. Hall B has a bit over 600ksf, Hall C has over 400ksf, and the B/C connector has enough ksf to push it past Orlando for the most space.

https://i.postimg.cc/3xx4pzpd/GWCC.jpg



Dallas
The KBH has about 710ksf.

https://i.postimg.cc/kX9tM2gN/KBH.jpg



Anaheim
I'm throwing this one in for good measure.

Halls A-D make for 665ksf+, and Hall E is another 140ksf nearby that can be used.

https://i.postimg.cc/qB23ds4M/ACC.jpg


Philadelphia and Houston are closer to 500ksf, which after experiencing the crush load in 2021, I have little desire to be in a facility where every table is 2-3 collectors deep.

I dont understand the point of these comments. Yes, collecting or investing or whatever you want to call it has gotten expensive. But dont tell us you are a “pure collector” because you only buy at lower prices than others. When you collected and bought cards for years, you ALWAYS bought at a price you thought would be good value. Didnt you bargain for prices at times? People paying $15k and up (and there are LOTS of them now, every major auction has tens of cards like that) believe that is good value. I for one dont buy them hoping to sell them higher in any foreseeable future, if I were to pay a high price for cards. To say those people are “investors” and you are a “true collector” is nonsense to me.

Welcome to life in 2023 vs. 1958!

As a promoter albeit a smaller show
 

I always put the best "attractions" if that was the players signing or JSA or anything like that in the back of the room.

My thought process was the people who are coming to see them, well they will walk the extra mile so to speak to find them.

And yes, I made exceptions such as when Wally Moon was signing because he had a walker and I wanted him to walk as little as possible as a courtesy.

Funny thing about Wally, supposedly he couid be ornery with promoters but he liked me and we loved having him at my shows. I think there was 3 reasons, I was always considerate of his needs, we had a mutual friend who sat with him and that made him comfortable and when his grand kids came to the show (They lived in Plano) they gladly paid the $1 admission and when he introduced them to me -- I just went and gave them back their admission fees. Why charge a family member?

But other than Wally, I always put the guests in the back of any room I was in. Granted the rooms were not that big but still.

Rich