Greg Morris - Trimmed Card? Proper Response?
 

I want the group's opinion on something. My apologies if I am "outing" a card.

There is a 1947 Tip Top Warren Spahn card for sale by Greg Morris Cards on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/385399709060

I collect this oddball set and am familiar with this difficult-to-find card. When I first saw the card, I immediately thought, "trimmed." As I compare it to other examples, it looks like it has been trimmed in the past. See the photos below. Specifically, look at the gap between the hat and the top of the card and the creases in the sleeves on the left side of the card.

I contacted Greg Morris with my concerns and suggested they measure the card and potentially list it as trimmed. The response I received was, "This card does not appear to be trimmed. If you win this card and are unhappy with it, we will gladly accept a return."

I could be wrong, and the card not be trimmed, but I believe it is. Does a return policy like this absolve Greg Morris from measuring and potentially listing a card as trimmed if it measures short? My guess is this card will close for over $1k when the bidding is done.

Note: I have had good experiences with Greg Morris Cards in the past and am not trying to disparage them. Per board guidelines, my full name is Jim McKinley.

They are one of the best and most above board sellers on eBay. They do a high volume of sales and I can understand their reluctance to measure an individual card per your request. Basically they are guaranteeing your satisfaction.

I believe their response was reasonable and I would not have an issue with that response.

First, I think your control card scan is a larger scan than the one Greg has listed. I do not know the issue at all but even if the card is smaller it does not mean it is trimmed. I have bought raw cards that sized perfectly that ended up being trimmed. And lastly, they feel it is not trimmed and are willing to guarantee that. I would say that is a top notch seller.

+1 agree

Great experience with them and the fact they are willing to take a return if you are not happy let’s you personally examine it without risk

The card is almost certainly trimmed. The top border hitting his hat looks extremely suspicious.

I am not surprised at all they just stated it’s fine and won’t list it properly.

Sorry, that is NOT a good response. Everyone knows Greg Morris is a fine seller, and the parade of people saying so (including myself) will go on unabated, but come on!

We're talking about a very valuable/expensive card, and the OP is looking for a bare minimum assurance that the card is not trimmed, and the reply is to send it back if you're not happy?? You can send anything back for a refund these days. That is a non-answer. What kind of customer service is that? It is obviously way short both ways, which could be natural, of course, but how about at least trying to ease your potential customer's (of a big ticket item, mind you) fears? That's not worth a quick re-look??

All long as a full refund is offered and your name isn't Will all is cool.:rolleyes::D;)

I've personally bought a "NM" card from GM with a pinhole in it and was about to buy another card the other month that had a crease in it marked Ex-Exmint. Which I contacted them about and they confirmed it was indeed a crease. Although the auction went on and nothing was mentioned of it. Which isn't great..

However I've also had a good number of positive experiences with them.

Probably 2/20 experiences ive had a pretty severe condition issue that was missed. Not the best but also a possible statistical anomaly/just bad luck

Jim,

Did you request the card measurements from the seller?

Can you do the same analysis for the back? That may provide an interesting contrast to the front comparison because of the writing on the back may show a significant difference the front doesn't show clearly.

Just my humble opinion - If there's any doubt, especially on a card that's not just a $10 card, then you would think a better examination of the card would be in order by the seller.

One thing for sure is that the seller does a HIGH VOLUME of sales so it's understood that they don't measure every card, but in a case like this, they might take it into consideration and save a buyer (and themselves) the headache of a possible return.

Hate to invoke something this controversial
 

Isn't this an example where the eBay authenticity guarantee will kick in?

Unless I'm off the mark, I think CSG will be taking a look at the card before it goes to the buyer, and if it's trimmed but not labeled as trimmed in the eBay listing, then I suspect that CSG will reject it.

Of course, some will say that they knew it was trimmed, but wanted it anyway, and therefore will blame the eBay AG for getting in the way of their deal.

It is, if CSG catches the trimming. The graders have a long history of spotting obvious trimming correctly, so I’m sure they will indeed and all will be well.

Before and after, best I could do quickly...

https://i.imgur.com/MghokJl.gif

Actually that is not true. Unless something has changed, they scan every card once it makes it past a human grader and while being scanned it measures the card with cards measuring too small being rejected and not listed.

I agree that the missing space on the top looks a bit suspicious. If you look at the folds in the jersey on the left side, there is also a large slice of the image missing there. These lead me to believe that this card is trimmed, or at least was factory cut at a smaller size, as I do not see larger borders on the bottom or right that compensate for the missing image on the left and top.

My personal viewpoint is that Greg Morris auctions lately have been missing the mark. Cards being over graded, quality control lacking, these things never occurred until recently. Also don’t like his grading scale listing cards as EX to EX MT. Big difference between EX and EX-MT. He’s been at this long enough now to know the difference. Just because you do the right thing on return’s doesn’t give someone a pass for mistakes that shouldn’t be happening.

I don't know anything about these cards, so I don't know if size / photo cropping differences are normal, but I'm not sure how much more a seller can do.

Doug

They could update the listing to note the card is altered and trimmed.

Except that their opinion is "this card does not appear to be trimmed".

Their opinion appears to be contrary to the obvious.

Perhaps something has changed and/or there are PSA graders that are moonlighting by working for the seller. :p

No company deserves to have PSA graders working for them.

Unfortunately, GM doesn’t care.

At this point does anyone care? Why does every card have to be graded? That's all we hear what grade will it grade will it grade...crap just buy it and keep it raw or if you think it's trimmed don't buy it! Why do so many people need vindications from the TPG's? Let it go.

Jim: Essentially, the seller of the card doesn't think it is trimmed, but you have provided evidence that there is a chance that it is. I would just move on if the possibility of owning a trimmed card is not your thing. I don't think Greg's response was bad; hopefully, he was just being honest in his assessment, right or wrong.

Ugh. There is a lot of that card missing.

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Amen. Same goes for autographs, or any other pastime that requires detailed knowledge in order to wade through its perils somewhat safely. If you are unwilling or unable to put in the work to become your own primary reference guide, go catch butterflies.

While I believe GM offers a great opportunity to those collecting raw cards or buying raw cards to be graded (think dollars) and I have bought from them multiple times, they do miss the grading mark from time to time.

Many might remember last year when I purchased a '49 Bowman Spahn GM graded exmt but was rejected by Ebay, under their authentication program, as not being fit for such a grade. Ebay was correct and I was refunded the purchase price.

I'm definitely sympathetic to a seller moving a significant bulk of cards every month like GM. I am sure there is no shortage of emails coming in the door that something is suspected by someone of being trimmed or worse. If you are selling raw cards I think its buyer beware, and if you don't like the look of something steer clear. I don't think a seller needs to engage with the buying community en masse everytime someone raises an issue about something. Many times even on this board, with people as knowlgeable as they are, there is substantial good faith disageement as to what is trimmed, authentic, etc.

I have also noticed a number of his raw t206 listings that are clearly trimmed but do not indicate it. I take it as a good sign when sellers are upfront about that, as many here do on the bst when selling trimmed cards.

+1

Yes, I remember that. That was a hoot.

You were cussing out ebay, all the TPGs and GM besides, and then as it turned out, funds had been refunded and were sitting in your bank account.

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There's no way this auto is good right?!?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e3aaa5e37c.jpg

I don't know if the volume GM is dealing with is affecting service, but I'm more careful in purchasing from them on ebay. I won multiple lots in one night and waited for an invoice with combined shipping. After a couple of days, I sent a message requesting an updated invoice. No reply from GM. Ebay then begins sending me messages to pay by a certain date, or loose the items. I again send a request to GM. Still no reply. I finally paid on the day ebay said I'd loose items. I overpaid shipping and never received a refund.

Michael Spellmon

I don't disagree, but as I said in an earlier post, I don't know anything about these cards, so I don't know if size / photo cropping differences are normal.

What I do know is that offering a refund to an unhappy buyer seems to me like a good deal for the buyer. If they think there is a chance that the card is not trimmed, they can get it in hand, decide for themselves, and then return if they need to.

If they think there is no chance that the card isn't trimmed, then they shouldn't buy it from him to begin with, but if they do, they can then return it if they decide that they were right all along.

The card is significantly short beyond natural variance, in both directions. That should be disclosed.

You said you didn’t know what more they could do. What they could do is list it honestly after being informed.

I don’t think it’s okay to list an altered card without noting it, but refunding the buyer if they catch it and ask for one because you didn’t disclose the truth, just like Jaimet. The Will Jaimet standard is not a good one and nobody could really defend it.

The seller, who I assume has the card in hand, doesn't think it's trimmed.

There are a number of people who think it is trimmed based on the picture, which were posted by the seller.

In my opinion, Will Jaimet is not a valid analogy to the seller.

This will be my final post on this thread, because you and I are having a conversation similar to those had on the death penalty or abortion or whether Trump was/is an asshole, neither of us is "wrong".

I respect your opinion (far more than those of the opinion sellers), and hope that you use that opinion to not purchase the card.

Best regards,
Doug "I wish I was trimmed" Goodman

I think after reading some of the threads on the other forum about Will Jaimet, the comparison to Greg Morris and this 47 Spahn is highly invalid but I do get the point Greg was trying to make.

I had a similar experience.

That's wild. I've bought probably at leat a thousand cards from GM over the years, as I'm a set collector and they do a lot of set breaks. I'm my experience they're the best at combining shipping fees of any seller on ebay. Always consistent, always prompt. They are, in my opinion, hands down, the best seller on ebay for cards.

That said, as someone mentioned above, their grading has gotten noticeably worse over the past 3 months or so. They have a hiring req currently posted for new graders on their website. It seems like their best grader/s must have recently gotten poached by one of the TPGs. But they do offer a no questions asked return policy. It doesn't get much better than that as a buyer on ebay.

While it's understood that grading cards is subjective, being a consistently decent grader of raw cards shouldn't be that difficult, aside from detecting any well-done alterations. Simply assign each card one rung down on the scale from where you feel it truly stands (or half a rung). Be conservative and your customers will love you.

I picked up some cards sight unseen a couple of weeks ago. A few of them were listed as VG, others EX. Imagine my utter shock when I received what I felt were NM (the VG) and MT (the EX)! I wrote to thank the seller for being so incredibly conservative in their grading. Being as careful as that particular seller was is not expected, nor does it make any sense, but it certainly made up for all the overgrading that gets done on sportlots. They were pretty valueless cards, but were needed for a purpose, so a gorgeous card is a gorgeous card regardless!

Not a big fan of "[grade] or Better" in anyone's listings. It's too ambiguous. "Well, it might grade this, or it might grade that!" Just leave the "or Better" out of the title. Informed buyers can interpret things for themselves. "or Better" may only lead to providing false hopes to less educated customers who submit to TPAs and it turns out to be "or Worse". I'm certainly not calling any seller out for overgrading by saying any of the above, nor is any of this directed specifically at Greg Morris Cards.

I had the same combined shipping experience a couple weeks ago. Made multiple requests for combined. Ended up paying one to avoid cancellation and noted it in the comments. Never received a reply.

Have another situation happening today…. An invoice that should be good until Saturday that needs payment by today or I lose it. Have sent multiple requests to extend and the response isn’t one that makes me comfortable. Will end up paying it today to avoid the cancellation.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that your bids won't be cancelled with Greg Morris if they go past the claimed eBay deadline. I realize that Greg Morris wants customers to pay up within X number of days, but I believe I once had it confirmed by someone on Morris' end that the sales won't be automatically cancelled by eBay if not paid up when eBay wants you to. There's an "automatic sale cancellation" setting for sellers that can be turned off or on at a seller's discretion, and they do not utilize this feature. Any missives you receive from eBay are just empty threats because eBay wants your money. Unless Greg Morris has changed the way they do things, just ignore eBay's messages until the time that someone on Morris' end can combine your shipping as they constantly advertise.

I hope you leave GM at least neutral feedback, possibly negative feedback for the non-response.

The feedback rating is the only avenue we have for effecting change.

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Absolutely not going to do that.

A couple combined shipping miscues are not even close to neutral territory let alone negative.

There's not a real competitor on eBay for the volume of popular cards they offer ungraded, so they attract a disproportionately large number of eyeballs and bids. They systematically get about 25% more for the same raw card in the same condition than I or any other relatively small-time seller gets, so they're great for finding the exact card you're looking for, but you'll consistently pay a bit over typical auction value for any cards you do win from them.

It's pretty clear the Spahn is trimmed, and this just seems like willful ignorance on their part to not see it. Great card otherwise, but I'm guessing they're going to get more than what the card will eventually sell for in an "Auth" slab.

After looking at the card, I was not planning on bidding on it. I was more concerned about the community and someone spending over $1k for a trimmed card.

I have and will continue to buy cards from GM, however, I will be much more "buyer beware" in the future.

Love this.
My credo.

Personal statement;
I don't need a grading service/authenticator; to tell me something, I should already know. Part of my passion for my hobby.
Raw, Rules!

Ben

"I love baseball history backstory; especially when it involves cards."

When I was a younger man and had yet to make the acquaintance of many other (autograph) collectors, it was my ignorant assumption that anyone could become as learned in the hobby as they wished, provided they put in the time and effort. The "10,000 hours" concept had yet to become a thing or gain mainstream popularity. Going down life's road a piece, I was to learn that there are some collectors who have spent the better portions of their long lives immersed in the hobby--and they still can't buy basic clues! It turns out that the 10,000 Hour Rule does not apply to any facet of sportscard/autograph/memorabilia collecting. It would only be of assistance if a person possesses an innate aptitude for it. You either have it or you don't.

Frankly, the 10,000 Hour Rule is hogwash. I've spent far more than 10,000 hours playing the piano. Am I a more skilled player than most people in the world? Probably, but most people on the planet don't spend that many hours playing the piano. I will always be far inferior to any professionals. I could never make a living at it, and even another 10,000 hours could do nothing to change that. My natural aptitude only allows me to get so far.

You described the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

The proposed idea, that there is nothing a seller should do beyond refunding a buyer if they catch the alteration and complain while very specifically rejecting the notion the seller should disclose the alteration in the listing, is 100% the same as Jaimet's claimed policy that was resoundingly mocked.

Obviously other aspects of the cases are completely different and have never been claimed to be the same (GM lists altered cards without disclosure but there is no reason to think they alter them themselves or anything), but this proposed policy to defend Morris declining to ID altered cards after being informed is exactly the same, as claimed.

So without examining the card in hand, based solely on a scan...not even a before or after photo comparison, you can state the card offered by the company is altered? Not even possibly cut small by the factory?

Again, there is nothing here that at all that rises to the indiscretions that Will has engaged in with this hobby.

Yes. Tip Tops don’t come this hugely short naturally. Anything is of course possible, maybe its unique! I would think most people would use a reasonable standard, in which a card this hugely short is very very unlikely to be unaltered. It is certainly more reasonable to act as if this card is trimmed than it is to act as if it is not.

Let’s say it is unaltered, just for giggles. As far as I am aware Morris never admits any card he sells is altered at all - he grades it and puts “minimum size” next to his grade range. Where is that?

Again, not a single person has claimed or implied Morris and Jaimet have risen to the same level of indiscretion. What was actually said, is that this policy being argued by a previous poster who has left the conversation now is 100% exactly the same as the Jaimet standard of disclosure we were all having a good laugh over. That a seller need not disclose alteration if they refund a buyer who catches it and complains. People seem to find the exact same standard reasonable and unreasonable based on who they are used to benefit.

Al, too true, and I felt like such a jerk after all my bellowing.

+1. Although I do not collect these, they do seem to have some slight variance in size and can be found a little miscut. I would be more concerned about the missing left side than I would be about the top-bottom, but then again, trimming is trimming if that in fact occurred.

Seems to me that between the Ebay review and the Seller's agreement to refund if buyer is unhappy (as in no need to prove it was trimmed) there is adequate protection. Combined with my confidence in this seller generally, I would not have a problem bidding, nor would I consider his opinion that the card is untrimmed to be some sort of attempt to cheat me.

EDITED TO ADD: Maybe Ted Z. can chime in, since he collects these from back when they were issued.

So after all this discussion on this card, the basic gripe is that someone that works for him marked the card as "LOW GRADE" instead of "FILLER". If you read through their Ebay disclosure on how they grade cards, that seems to be the only issue with this card. Had it been marked "FILLER" it is covered under their description. I don't collect this issue, so I have no idea if it is trimmed, factory mis-cut or just fine, I also don't have the card in hand so I'm not going to make any determination if someone trimmed it.

When I was set building I purchased a lot of cards from Greg Morris Cards, and yes, I got some trimmed one's and there were no questions asked when I returned them. I also purchased a lot of cards on the BST area of this board in large lots and I ran into a trimmed card every now and then, it's part of the hobby and has been for over 40 years. Trimmed cards aren't going away, one just needs to accept the fact that you're going to own some at some point, especially if you want to collect high grade vintage. The nice thing is a lot of these trimmed cards are sold "raw" today because TPG's have gotten better at catching some of them over the years.

As for GM Cards to be paying people to constantly be making changes to listings at the whims of everyone that wants to make a comment about their cards, I would ignore it too as a business owner. They are running a business that is good at getting large volumes of raw cards listed on a weekly basis and available to collectors. I would prefer that his employees are listing cards not making corrections to listing titles instead, and I'm sure in order to continue their business their employees need to be listing cards. If you think the card is trimmed, simply don't buy it and move on to the next one. I would much rather take my chances with a seller like GM Cards who will return the trimmed card than the hoard of sellers on Ebay that are selling trimmed cards in TPG holders and tell you to "Pound Sand" when you try to return it because it was graded by PSA or SGC.

I buy a lot of cards from GM, and the reason is that I trust his graders. I don't want to have to look at every card before I bid on it, to see if it is trimmed. And I don't want to have to measure every card I win.

So threads like this bother me. I agree with many of the posters that GM's standards have dipped recently. I hope these problems are temporary and plans are in process to fix the issues.

I agree with G1911 and others that the Will Jaimet business model is not a good solution, and not one that GM should be satisfied with.

LOL, Welcome to the reality of collecting pictures of young athletic men in uniforms.

Caveat Emptor is the motto we stand behind...

In my first post I stated I do not know this particular issue certainly not well enough to know what is typical or not for the issue. What I do know is that I have seen lots of vintage issues have cards which are small, as well as large, which have cuts that are 100% consistent with properly sized cards from the same issue. Size to me is meaningless unless someone shows a scan of the card before and a card after where something changed or unless the cut is consistent with what a trim job looks like.

I am not Greg Morris Cards' lawyer but he does apparently list cards as altered (in the title) as well as disclosing other material info about a card. To know this one simply has to look at any of his listings and see the FAQ where he details these disclosures. I cannot speak to this particular card as to why it was not stated it is small or trimmed, assuming that it is. I suspect the person answering questions on eBay is not the same person who has the authority to amend listings. Maybe they took it upon themselves to not raise the issue with someone who might have amended the listing.

I guess I am not as black and white as you. In this case, right or wrong, if I am not comfortable with this card I am not bidding regardless of the return privilege or what I have been told. Again, call me stupid, stubborn or but I really do not see the Jaimet comparison as applicable given the circumstances in their history in the hobby which exist for these two sellers. Jaimet is a sole proprietor with a horrible reputation and is entirely untrustworthy. GMC is a company who has a terrific reputation who has always stood behind what they sell. That you see their responses are the same or similar is taking this out of context at least how I judge situations where I might not agree with how something was handled.

Again, the claim to fact actually made was true. The previous posters proposal is the exact same as the Jaimet standard that was mocked. 100% the same. My opinion of that is that this standard is poor and unethical.

GMC’s terrific reputation, your bidding practices, anybody’s stupidity or stubbornness, your opinion that a card cannot be called trimmed without before and after photos (I have never seen this as a standard before - I guess I don’t need to disclose a trimmed card since I don’t have B&A’s of trimmed cards I own), are very different points and topics from the claim actually made. You are arguing statements the transcript shows were not ever made.

Looks like they ended the auction.

Ended because of this thread most likely


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It's happened to us all, some more than once.

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That makes sense. The card would have failed the authentication process, so this saves time and effort of the potential buyer, ebay, CSG and GM themselves.

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I sent a follow-up email with a link to JollyElm's gift above (great job by the way) and an hour later GM took down the listing.

I am very interested in a 47 Tip Top Spahn so I was watching the auction closely. When I went to set my snipe, I just wasn't comfortable with the card. Looked far too narrow. I trust my first impression when it comes to the overall look of a card and this one just does not look right. There is also a real problem with reprints; apparently, some very good ones have been made. They are easily caught in hand if you have experience with the set, not so much online. The good reprints I've seen are narrower, probably to conceal the lines that would be on the edges from the reshoot of the original.

I think a card like this has to be in a slab if you are going to sell it online. I cannot do my due diligence as a buyer if I cannot examine the card from all angles in-person, check the stock, etc. That's where the TPGs come in handy. I know they miss stuff, but they also catch a lot of stuff. If the card makes it into a slab the odds of my getting a reprint or an altered card are much lower.

Not really but you love to argue...I mean debate...so I concede.

The surely properly listed and disclosed Clemente “auto” has also been pulled as well, it appears.

Wait, every questionable card 'outed' here on net54 is suddenly being taken down?? Gentlemen, I do declare that GM has a mole in our ranks!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes: