Should Some Interference Be Allowed In The BST Areas?
 

I have been pm'ing with a member concerning the policy on members, other than the original thread creator, posting in BST threads under certain circumstances.

For instance, if someone is selling a T204 Brown. They give 3 historical prices, in the BST listing, of cards that went for more money and in the same condition. All the while leaving out sales from, say, the free PSA pricing histories that are accessible to anyone online, and most are lower.

Would it be ok to make a post saying?..

"As an FYI, in case you missed them, here are 3 other recent sales, with links, to help educate members." (or something to that effect)

An argument could be that, not allowing members to comment makes it a less healthy and safe environment. And when someone intentionally leaves out pertinent details i.e... lower sales histories, it is akin to fraud.

Your thoughts?

and a postcard

I would be OK with the bold. It didn't say LAST 3 sales and as long as they are recent sales it was not a lie.

My favorite on here was when a seller messaged me to sell a card I hoard. There was one on eBay for $25 and one for $90. Guess what one he sent me a link to saying he could do a slightly better price on?

I like the current rule and could see letting people comment turning into a complete shit show.

I am in favor of reasonable/legitimate forum member interjection on BST listings.

There must be over 100 instances throughout the years in which I've wanted to comment, but just bit my tongue instead. Didn't want to go against forum etiquette, but it's tough to stomach deceptive listings.

Since KM is now gone, it's gotten better, but still some bad listings out there. ;)

If member A posted a card for sales and only highlighted selected comps, which were favorable to them, they painted an intentionally incomplete picture.

If member B followed with a, "here are the last six sales of that card in a PSA 4 on eBay" post, they gave a more complete picture.

I see nothing wrong with that. Member A opened the door by cherry picking comps in an effort to get more money.


###


If member A simply posted a card for sale with pictures and a price, that seems pretty straightforward. Member B probably shouldn't interfere.

If a seller gives only comps that benefit him, he is purposely giving false information, I see no problem in calling that out.

I think any time a member posts something that is not factual in their sale post, interfering to correct that fact is appropriate. IMO the person interfering should be able to prove what they are saying and not just post an opinion. I'm fine with your scenario. As another example I would be fine with a case where someone says something along the lines of this is the only copy and the person interfering can show another.

+1 in favor.

BS being corrected will probably upset a lot of members. Facts should always come first.

I agree 100% with this.

Fine by me, just be careful defining what sorts of information is fair game.

First, as a dog lover, I love the Postcard!

Secondly, I am also fine with it and agree 100% with Eric72

Bob

I agree with this policy and thought we were already allowed to do this, as I think I've seen some examples of interference in the past (I have a BIG personal example in mind).

No, disagree completely.

Caveat Emptor rules the day, if you're too lazy as a buyer to do your homework and educate yourself and then take the sellers word on value, then you deserve to pay a higher price. The numbers are out there for free, use them. I've had buyers use the same silly tactic to try and drive my asking price down, let's just say I won't deal with that buyer anymore because it's bad form whether a seller or buyer uses that tactic, it's not what BST is about.

It wasn't too far in the past that you would admonish any member commenting on a BST listing with anything but positive comments.

I'll play devil's advocate here with an example and say, Members need to be doing their own pricing research and not only relying on the sellers word. If a seller posts something rare on the bst and I can find 3 sales in the past few months, $1000, $1200 and $2000. And the seller is asking $2500 and only references the $2000 sale. I don't see the problem with that.

Now I think this is heavily dependent on what is being sold and the time period others have sold. If you're listing Mike trout rookies for $2000 only showing sales from last year that's a definite issue. And should be called out.

The best way to "bring attention" to an "aggressive" selling tactic involving inflated price disclosures favorable to the seller would be to provide other pricing without any extra commentary. At some point, if the aggressive seller persists, then everyone will figure out that person may not be a community member worth dealing with.

Something to consider is that if someone doesn't include any past sales information but is obviously "high" in price, then refrain from commenting and just let it go. Else the BST will become a free for all.

I disagree a bit although I respect the POV. To me, that a buyer could discover the truth does not excuse a seller giving out misinformation, and the seller should be called on it.

Just clarifying if you mean this as it was written. The "same silly tactic" refers to the example in the OP? You are saying if you gave a buyer a materially misleading list of sales, excising sales that didn't aid your narrative, and that the potential buyer noticed this, you would block them from doing any deals? And that this did indeed happen? It is inappropriate and bad form to observe a lie, not the lie itself?

And who, pray tell, decides what the limits are for this type of interference?? It's a huge can of worms. There is nothing more annoying than someone bringing their BS into someone else's FS/FT thread, as it's happened to me and plenty of others before. It'll start with some sort of casual, "You missed a few pertinent comps, old boy" and then dissolve into a sh*tshow as people start throwing their opinions into people's threads just for a laugh.

Caveat emptor. Everyone around here knows what the deal is, so each should do their own research and fact finding. If it ain't broke...

I'll clarify, I always list my cards at a fair price based on comps because that is, in my understanding, the nature of BST, a group of collectors that treat each other with respect, integrity, and fairness. In my particular case the buyer, who has a substantial collection comped a recent Cobb Exhibit at a much lower grade to make his offer, pretty much insulting my intelligence thinking I was a Rube (no insult to the Waddell family intended), showed me who he was as a human and I decided I don't want to do business with folks like that

The great part is there are numerous members here who will interact with those same somewhat rare by today's standard principles, those are the folks that make this sub great.

Maybe a middle ground is you can out someone for what you think is a misleading BST post but should as a courtesy raise it with them privately first and see if it's promptly acted upon. What might be obvious to some might not be obvious to another person.

This is why I check. That example, a buyer using materially misleading comps as a negotiation tactic, is completely different from the example in this thread where a seller is lying by omission and using a manufactured and materially misleading list of comps.

It's the same, whether a buyer or seller is using misleading comps.

Here's the thing about this place, 100 year old cardboard images are just a vehicle, it's how we treat each other that is the true test of character.

open it up
 

I vote for opening it up. Comment board courtesy should be enforced in BST, but nothing more. I never understood the "everyone hands off" policy of the BST anyway.

I like the idea, up to a point. If someone makes a factual statement in a sale listing and is challenged with a factual rebuttal, that's probably good. But, I can see it devolving into people making generic comments like "you're way too high" or "what a ripoff".

Pandoras Box
 

I have been on this site from the very beginning. Most often as a buyer... rarely as a seller.

Since my focus is strictly pre-war catchers, I have a very good idea of the "going rate" for most items after 30 plus years of experience.

I have bought many items over the years from the B/S/ T thread.

Sellers post the item with a price, and then I decide whether the price is fair. If it is, then I'll attempt to buy it. Never remember seeing any threads with "comps".... just the sale price.

As others have stated already, opening the door for others to comment is a slippery slope.

Working with the public, I always hope for the best, but see the worst in people far too often.

Patrick

I get what you are saying, but it is the opposite of the situation; as written the original statement benefits greatly from your clarification that you are talking about a 180 reversal of the situation.

I don't think anyone would disagree that cardboard images are not a reflection of character, while personal conduct is. This is why it seems like a good idea to allow lies to be publicly observed.

A test that is not always passed, and sometimes is failed spectacularly. But I don't recall any incivility on BST threads in the time I've been on here.

It's not a lie, it's an abuse of the truth and a bush league sales tactic that insults intelligent members here.
I would also caution that allowing members to comment on BST listings is a Pandora's box of personal opinions which have nothing to do with a transaction between a buyer and seller.

Considering how cranky some people are being lately, I'm not sure it's a good idea.

I don't often have a chance to deal with expensive collectibles either buying or selling. But on those occasions, I like to know the comps myself, relying on any seller for that info is just not something I do. Especially if the item is hundreds or thousands of dollars.
With my cheap stuff, I don't bother. If someone says "I want $2 because the ones I had at $1 sold almost instantly what matters more is if I want that particular card right then.

Another thing to consider is that comps aren't always accurate comps.
For example, how many threads do we have comparing two cards at a particular grade- "Which is better" "which one would you keep" Etc.
So are the three comps listed really similar in centering etc, and are the ones not mentioned examples with maybe better corners and lesser centering? Or some other differences?

Ask Leon how many times he's had to check members comments.

On BST threads, you mean?

100%. Kevin Mize is a perfect example, douchebag extraordinary but allowed to run his game as he should have until he ran too far.

“The Nun’s Wagner” is an extreme example of a BST thread gone wild.

There are other, less bizarre cases. Point is, yes, it has happened before.

I don't remember him but I found all his old posts. The internet is forever...

Nuns Wagner is a perfect example of crazy and what makes this sub fun, we need more freaks like that for entertainment value.

So THAT'S where that meme came from! :)

Classic thread.

His original post, which did not include the photo (that came later):

"here it is guys.
been in the family for a long time, my grandfather picked it up when he was a kid from someone in georgia. We had it authenticated in 2008, he almost auctioned it off in 2010, however he was not satisfied with the price. I dont really like honus wagner, with this in mind Im willing to trade this for some other cards. Other cards Im interested in include 52 topps mantle 51 bowman mantle, 54 dan dee mantle, goudey babe ruth, cracker jack ty cobb, hank aaron rookie and other high end cards. I dont really know what to value this card at since it is so beat up, with that in mind if my trade is way to high let me know."

This was by far the best thread ever on here. The guy wasn't even hiding his paper towels and lotion

Wow...that description alone is ridiculous but along with the picture...I can see why the meme has lived on.

Seems like a shit show waiting to happen and bad listings sitting at the top of the page due to constant bumps for correction or arguments.

I would rather have a rule that if comps are listed they must be the most recent 5 or 7 for the same card with same grade and sale date with grading service listed. If it’s not and selective comps are given the thread is locked.

Try using selective comps and not the newest most similar on a mortgage underwrite and you have a rejection from the investor. No pick and choose.

Why is it that sellers show 2 or 3 recent sales of similar item BUT when their item sells they delete or don’t list the “sold” price. That would be the most recent comp, right?

I didn't read every post in this thread so this may have been mentioned. There have been several times that I saw someone list a card for sale here that they just bought from one of the auction houses. So, if someone lists a card for $2000 here and I see that they bought it a few weeks ago for $1400 can I post that info?

+1. I agree with this completely

Also, inviting 3rd party comments will serve to bump the thread again and again, thus making everyone look at the darn thing over and over and pushing down other listings. Further, When would it be proper to post comp info? Only when the seller has posted incomplete or incorrect info? How about when a card that literally just sold in a major auction for $X is now listed on BST for $X+25%? While it annoys me, the fellow listing the just-sold-card now for 25% has every right to do so and I see no reason to jack the guy’s thread with a post, letting the world know that the exact card just sold at auction for 25% less. I think this rule is dangerous and could make a circus out of certain BST listings and also open a major can of worms/slippery slope as to proper scope. Plus, it’s unneeded considering rule #1 of BST is and always has been, caveat emptor..

That said, it’s a different story for anyone who is clearly scamming/committing fraud. Also, as we have learned over the years, the BST has a way of self-policing/correcting the generally undesirables.

Don't forget that BST thread from RB where he tried to sell a Red Cobb/ Lenox for an entire year. :eek:

I vote against allowing comments. There will always be a grey area and the possibility it would degrade to a shitshow is too great.

I agree with Eric72 also but JollyElm's "hugh can of worms" is also valid. Like Pandora's Box, once it is open it can't be closed.

Comps in ads
 

The buyer should do their own research. Sellers posting a "comparable" that has better centering or is a better-looking card is annoying, and unethical, but the buyer can look up the sale for themselves and compare before they make a large purchase.

Agree 100%.

+1 Agree

However if the buyer posts a "PM SENT" and you feel strongly on something then just Message him direct with your observations

For a number of reasons, I haven't ever bought or sold much on BST, and normally would err on the side of more information being better, but the downside of this seems to far exceed the upside. I am reminded of the old saying about behavior in academic departments: "The politics are so vicious, because the stakes are so small." There is a lot of petty behavior even on non-BST threads and even causal observers can identify long-standing animosity between specific members. If it was just egregious behavior being called out, I could understand. But, pettiness works on a much a finer increment and who gets to decide the difference between egregious behavior and a merely optimistic seller?

It is my observation that most members here are fairly astute when it comes to the value of cards and memorabilia and the concern, for me anyways, would be newcomers to the hobby and the board. To that end, wouldn't it make more sense to have (yet another) stickie thread at the top of each BST thread with a tutorial on the various ways to determine sales comps? And perhaps requiring new members to read, and acknowledging reading, the tutorial as a condition for approval?

personally I think calling out potential BST seller on BS should be perfectly allowed.

although in this day and age...where do we draw the line as to what real data/facts are?

A recent auction result could be an outlier...a fake sale? But in many cases this is just a guess...noone knows for sure?

I have bought/sold some incredible cards on the bst over the last 15-20 yrs...and I value it as a great place to transact.

And this board has a way of self regulating itself...but only if BS is called out!!!!

I just want it to stay that way.

bst
 

Yea, its a seller tactic,

its a bit annoying,

everyone obviously sees what the seller is trying to do - " look that last Mantle in that shape sold for XX, Im only asking XY

If your at a show and a dealer say that to you..you kind of say to yourself " who cares, thats got nothing to do with this possible sale "

I dont think anything needs to be done

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway
Whatever it is, I'm against it
No matter what it is or who commenced it
I'm against it

Your proposition may be good
But let's have one thing understood:
Whatever it is, I'm against it
And even when you've changed it or condensed it
I'm against it
I'm opposed to it
On general principles, I'm opposed to it.

-The beauty of the free market is that it corrects itself. No need to mess with it here. I've always liked the philosophy that "the fewer the rules, the better".

I must have missed this. Who is KM?

I realize most of the comments are about price...

If there's something on BST that looks like it's not authentic, and I see it, I'd be inclined to message the seller, or post on that BST, that the item isn't genuine, or is suspicious.

On the pricing issue, who of us has not ever paid more for an item that it may have been worth? I certainly have 'overpaid' for cards, ticket stubs, and postcards.... I wasn't trying to get a good deal or a steal, I really wanted to acquire the item. Similarly, who of us has something that we want to keep, that we don't want to sell for some normal price? I've got stuff that I'd not sell for double the normal price. As do many of you guys.

Mr. Mize.

In favor of leaving as is... Unless it is a fraudulent item. Then maybe a note to the seller - who may not know its a bad item.

Personally, If I see something I want, I do the research on price vs. condition and go from there. If its graded I track back the cert number to see where it may have come from to avoid the "bad guys' items... caveat emptor....

funny years ago i cited an auction that was left out the same fact pattern and was met with criticism for that....years go by and now what I did is being considered....too soon for my time...story of my life

Things get reconsidered all of the time. Change is much less often. I appreciate all of the comments so far.
.

I just think it would inevitably devolve into stuff like "Gee, $1800 . . . . wasn't that sold last week at LOTG for $650?"

There's deceptive and there's exaggeration and there's the buyer who misrepresents unwittingly and there's just greed . . . so many diffferent flavors.

A rule that you can call someone out on inaccuracies about what they are selling ("hey that's not a 1914 CJ but a 1915. . .") seems prefectly fine to me.

Due Diligence issue?
 

I generally agree that changing the rules would be akin to opening up a can of worms.

An issue like pricing/value (or grading) practically includes subjectivity. As the specific question you asked was about publicly available and easily accessed information, I think the responsibility for due diligence is on both the buyer and seller. We frequently discuss "caveat emptor" and "eye appeal premium" - perhaps the seller is noting cards that he believes are the closest representation to his regarding that? I know anytime I am looking at purchasing a card, I could care less what "comps" a seller is providing - I do my own homework.


That said, I think you could handle on a case-by-case basis a seller who is in your opinion repeatedly & purposefully trying to dupe.

A grayer area to me would be calling attention to cards or items with known controversy that may not be as easily accessible. I recall a thread recently where the authenticity of certain sealed packs had been discussed in an article which the poster linked to in the thread. Another example would be a card that someone knows/notices has been called into question as to it's alteration by BODA (with a link to the appropriate page). Not sure if/where to draw a line, but something like this would seem like a better argument could be made than for "simple" pricing.

Really?
 

1) I respectfully believe such a rule would be not helpful. As has been previously stated - "comps" for a particular grade do not reflect a number of factors important in valuation, "eye appeal" at the top of the list. What if the last 5-7 sales had inferior or superior eye appeal (which is also a largely subjective measure).

2) When I bought my 1st house, I pursued financing through 2 different lenders (my nature). They each brought in their own "professional" appraiser. 1 appraisal came in at 420K. The other at 520K. Sorry, but based on my experience - PLENTY of pick and choose!

Unless the comps are false, I don't have a problem with them being in the post.

The bottom line is the price of the card. Everything else is fluff.

+1

This is a classic slippery slope and will degenerate fast if allowed.

Ya'll (I will never use "yawl" again unless it's a sailboat) know me and know how I have felt, forever. The member makes a persuasive argument but hasn't moved the needle for needing change, imo. I think it's appropriate to post the actual written rule, under the Forum Rules icon, as most probably haven't read it. And, as stated, fraudulent activity IS the exception, which is ok to expose in BST threads.


Posts offering to buy, sell, or trade items should be made in the appropriate Buy/Sell/Trade index. This includes posts for items appearing in on-line auctions such as eBay, Grand Slam Bids and auction houses etc... Buy/Sell/Trade threads in the wrong categories, or forums, will be moved or deleted. There should be no interference by 3rd parties within the Buy/Sell/Trade areas. Third parties are those not involved in a transaction. This includes, but is not limited to, posting current or historical cost information, commenting negatively on the offer or item, or anything that interferes with the listing in a negative way. Only persons involved in the transaction should post in the thread, however benign or favorable comments are generally permitted by third parties. If you don't know the difference between them, then please don't post. One exception is to expose fraudulent activity. It may always be posted in any thread, anywhere on the board, but you better have your ducks in a row and your name by your post when you report these misdeeds. “Caveat Emptor- Buyer Beware” to all members. Each member uses the board at their own risk. Net54baseball does not monitor, and is not responsible for, transactions. Our sole recourse, in a punitive manner is suspension or banishment from the board. The Uniform Commercial Code of Law of the United States applies. We will work with authority’s when/if the need arises. Please request references from your trading partners when they are not well known or you don’t know them. Whenever someone resists giving a reference, upon request, please contact the moderator as that is, many times, a red flag.

Once any transaction is completed in the Buy/Sell/Trade areas, or over with, that transaction shouldn’t be deleted. Specific pricing, or confidential information may be removed but the other information should stay. Items should be consolidated in the BST area, into one thread, when appropriate. In other words don’t list more than a few similar items in single threads, in the same BST area, at once. IF you do this, they will most likely be deleted and asked to be posted again in a consolidated fashion. You should not bump a BST thread to the top very often (every 3-4 days at most) as it is discourteous to other posters.

Slippery slope-- I'd leave it as is except for mis-identified and unauthentic cards.

A reference to comps is just a guide, not an assurance that all sales were thoroughly investigated and are given. So long as the information is reasonably accurate and not a flat-out misrepresentation, let it be, as Paul McCartney might say.

On a barely related subject, my rant would be toward those who fail/refuse to put WTB on their subject lines. Many times I have clicked on a thread thinking it might be something I would consider owning, only to see there's nothing for sale and just a solicitation for someone to please sell to the poster. I must confess there have been times I thought about "interfering" with those threads by posting a thank you for wasting my time (well, maybe not thank you, but something to drive the point home).

Totally agree with the slippery slope argument. What if the seller leaves out one comp, or two? Is that enough to call them out? And as another poster pointed out, all PSA 5s are not created equal. Would we call out a seller for asking too little for a card? Maybe they didn't notice the band-aid on Al Kaline's forehead. Just seems like something that is hard to police and would take much time/effort on Leon's part and/or bring unnecessary drama into BST threads.

I agree that we should call out forgeries, altered cards, reprints, etc, but those are usually best handled through PMs.

I have clicked on several listing also to only find out they are looking for the same card(s) as I am. Also adding the end date to auctions in the title should be a rule.

Yes to the bold part for sure! Also, I'd love to see a rule/guideline that posting a new comment on your own BST thread only to say that an item is sold or NLA is not allowed, as this only pushes active listings down the page.

I'd say it comes down to the factual accuracy in the OP. If they're posting prices of some comps, well that's sort of what I assume many people with something to sell will do. If they're just saying, "Look, here are some similar cards and what they sold for," they've done nothing wrong. Maybe those are the five most recent sales, or maybe they're the five most recent sales on eBay, or maybe they're the five highest prices of the ten most recent sales. In any case, they aren't anything other than what the seller presented them as. If they claim these are the most recent sales but have omitted one (or more), whether by accident or to deceive, then I think it's good for someone else to post the missing data. Otherwise, that's not called for.

Which is to say I'm fine with sellers as long as they're posting the truth and nothing but the truth. It need not be the whole truth, however one might define that. And I don't think it's good for the spirit of the forum if people are posting additional information detrimental to a seller who didn't post anything incorrect to begin with.

That’s a rather manly asking price.

Remember... there is also a prominent BST section for memorabilia. The "interjection" argument applies more to memorabilia than cards. Most cards are cataloged and categorized with universally known manufacturers, issue dates, values, etc.

With memorabilia, problematic issues involve more than just stating comps. Issues can involve the erroneous dating of a pennant, the mis-identification of a vintage photo, the authenticity of an ad sign, a forged autograph, or the incorrect tagging of a game-used uniform.

There are dozens of other potential issues... ranging from a simple mistake, to a novice seller, to outright fraud. I see nothing wrong with correcting such listings, as long as the interjection is valid. It is beyond frustrating to watch such listings run without any ability to correct or comment, until someone gets burned.

Shares a first name with Mr. Youkilis

Shares a last name with "The Big Cat".

Getting back to the original post -

Why not just have the BST seller provide a brief description of the item and the price. No "historical" sales data allowed. If someone really wants to dig it up, then they'll do that.

No commenting by third parties on the BST threads except to ask questions about the item (condition? has it been to a TPG in the past? size?), say "I'll take it" or the occasional - "wow, that's a nice card" comment" that we see from time to time.

Very clear, no ambiguity and no drama.

Kevin Galarraga :p

Not to stray too far from the topic but what about a few common sense rules for the BST forum? One would be everything listed must have a price. The “I’m taking offers” is complete nonsense.

I look up comps before buying if it is not a card I have been following. I once used a comp not realizing it was what the seller recently paid! Ended up likIng the card for the grade enough that I still bought it giving the seller enough meat on the bone.

I have no problem with pricing info being disclosed but think in general this group is knowledgeable enough not to need it. I hate seeing people being duped so am 100% for calling out fakes or misrepresentations (I.e. a reprint listed as a real card or a card that is recolored or trimmed and evidence is shared to how you drew that conclusion). I hate seeing people get duped - but asking more than something is worth clogs up the BST threads more than hurts anyone in my opinion.

I do not sell on here (or really anywhere) but have bought from many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALBB View Post
…sold for XX, Im only asking XY

* cymbal crash * ;)

It will be a mess.

I'm honestly more bothered by some people saying LTB and others saying WTB than I am by people showing only higher comps. My OCD kicking in, I suppose.

Buyer beware.

Caveat emptor.

Etc.

Doug

My vote is LTB