PPP Loans taken by Prominent Hobby Figures
 

Anybody here seen this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z96fE-JiqnE

It's pretty infuriating when you consider the "pandemic" represented the biggest boom for sports cards in recent history. Sorta goes against the whole spirit of the PPP Loans, IMHO.

Too bad that hard working taxpayers had to foot the bill for these shysters. Please forgive me if this topic/video has already been shared here.


* Edited to say there's an awesome PWCC rant starting around the 4:14 mark

thx

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1540794

PWCC 413K according to this.

PPP Loans taken by Prominent Hobby Figures
 

Is there a synopsis of this somewhere I can read? Couldn’t get past a minute of listening to this guy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They're obnoxious, clickbaity, and drama focused, but they often give good documentary evidence for what they are alleging and much of it will be posted on their website. A lot of this stuff floats around the Discords weeks before it makes it to YouTube. They've been right about a lot of things everyone claimed was wrong, but had to fold in the face of the evidence. The Goldin material is a lot better than this. I'm not sure ANY business didn't abuse the hell out of these loans, and with the way it was setup, frankly it would have been foolish not to take the cash.

Wow

That guy was a little opinionated

Interesting topic, do not like the way it was presented by the host.

Some facts but a lot could be taken out of context.

Would also like to see a written version to be able to research some of the items mentioned

From where I see it...lots of businesses took PPP money...some of which didn't need it. Some enriched their bank accounts with this $$$$...some spent the money on sports cars and luxury items. I have numerous friends who benefited greatly because of the free $$$$$.

It's part of the reason the economy got so f'ed!

It shouldn't have been given out so freely...imho.

At first, I thought it was a good idea when the concept was put out there. If the state is going to shut down commerce, they can at least not shove everyone into poverty when they do it. Then I saw the text of how it was actually going to work. The biggest gift in world history?

That's not opinion, that is fact, plain and simple. Every unbiased economist in the world says the same thing, too much money (free handouts with billions and billions in fraud) chasing too few goods.
.

That's not opinion, that is fact, plain and simple. Every unbiased economist in the world says the same thing, too much money (free handouts with billions and billions in fraud) chasing too few goods.
.

Sports Card Radio are definitely not for everyone. Their style is one that normally drives me nuts. Yet somehow it works for me. Having said that, their actual news and "drama" is usually right on point. They are willing to call out bad behavior that others ignore. And that's needed.

And you wonder why some people think the system is rigged.

I wonder....
 

How many of the owners of the same businesses were complaining that WAY too much was given to their unemployed employees??!!

Holy crap, that guy on SCRadio doesn't hold back. I have to believe it's true because I couldn't imagine it was false because that would seem to open the guy up for a HUGE law suit.

What was done is just absolutely disgusting. How the hell do people get away with that? Will there be any accountability for any of it?

I'm now done with anything to do with PWCC and Goldin. Not that I did much bidding with them anyway. I guess I was lucky because all the purchases I've made from those businesses were for 19th century cards which most people that visited Goldin probably ignored (which gave me a few nice cards, at very reasonable prices).

This guy in the video is a moron trying to get angry old men angrier.

Times were very uncertain when covid hit. Do you remember all the confusing info?

There is a reason why card prices dipped in the 6 months following covid. And why most you the angry people here weren't the buyers of those cards- it is because they were scared of the impact of covid. PWCC was an employer of, probably, 100+ people. love them or hate them, they created jobs and provided a service to people who were buyers of cards during that scary time.

That's more than most here have done. It is easy to criticize others. It's harder to actually do something.

I will confess to taking $1600 in government cheese. Almost covered payroll for two weeks for an employee who missed time that I didn't want to not pay.

Fyi
 

The SC Radio guys just did an interview for Mike Sommer's Wax Pack Hero Podcast.

If you are going to talk about them, this is actually a must listen

https://waxpackhero.com/podcast

Rich

Is anyone really surprised??

The government was giving out free money to businesses who met a very short list of easily achievable conditions, and business owners applied for and received the free money?

I am shocked! Grieved! Appalled! Dismayed! Gobsmacked!

You have more faith than I in the Government's intelligence when it comes to allocating taxpayers money lol

There was a member here (no names will be given) on an earlier post who gleefully boasted how he used his PPP money to buy a 1952 Mantle card.

When I questioned it he got real defensive real quickly.

This is the problem. I don’t think anybody, including these obnoxious streamers,
is attacking people who took PPP for legitimate use under the program (it would be foolish not to take the free money); they’re attacking people who appear to have lied or misused funds, or were committing fraud while taking the free money.

correct

This is EXACTLY what happened. Plain and simple. Many who took the money did not need it, but they DID qualify - just like many who got the $1600 stimulus checks took that money even though they did not need it (I get one was stimulus and the other PPP, but both "need" based). I think this is a case of "dont hate the player, hate the game". The government screwed the pooch on this one. However, I realize that is easy to say in hindsight. Remember, at the time, we had no idea what was going on -- there was a medical cruise ship in the Hudson, the Javitz center was converted to a hospital, people were washing their groceries while wearing gloves and masks, and the world shut down. It was a crazy time and many mistakes were made. Learn and move on.

As an aside, my company had over 200 employees at the time (we have grown since), and we did not take a dollar of PPP money, despite efforts by banks and lawyers wanting to help us apply. It just did not seem right (or patriotic) because we did not need it. However, it was well within our "right" per the PPP rules. Just sayin....

I don't think SCR's demographic is "angry old men", quite the contrary. Their content is more for the clickbait/social media-loving crowd.

Also, card prices DID NOT dip after COVID shutdown in the US. The was a very small window in late March where there was small tick-down but from April 2020 thru 2021 market prices on just about all cards were BOOMING the likes of which we have never seen before.

Interesting side-note: The PPP loans were supposed to repaid (hence being loans) yet it appears all of them were just forgiven? Doesn't seem right to me, clearly many who did not need it took advantage of this free cash

They were always planned, and even advertised to be forgiven, at least for borrowers that met the criteria for forgiveness. When Congress passed the law authorizing them, the law specifically provided for forgiveness if the conditions were met.

They were merely documented as loans to give the government the ability to get the cash back if the borrower did not meet the criteria.

It’s a government program, businesses could use. I don’t see the big deal.

I'd love to hear the justification for spending a PPP loan on a 52 Mantle. I am not remembering a prior discussion.

'Money for nuthin and the chicks for free'.

Well, we were in dire straits.

Technically, no one receiving and having a PPP loan forgiven spent the loan money on anything other than their payroll and certain other qualified expenses, incurred during a very specific time period. Paying out such payroll/qualified expense amounts in excess of the PPP loans received was what qualified them to be forgiven. The plan/idea behind the PPP loans was as sort of a pre-emptive way to make sure businesses (and the overall economy) potentially being affected by Covid would be able to continue on, and keep employing and paying their workers who were coming down with Covid and/or facing the restrictions, shutdowns, closings, and other problems everyone was facing during the initial onslaught of the pandemic. At the time, no one really knew how devastating and prolonged the pandemic crisis would be, and the loan program and forgiveness aspect was sort of an insurance policy to help keep businesses from failing, and workers from potentially losing jobs and paychecks. Had the program not been in effect, it is likely that many businesses would have ceased operations and/or terminated employees, placing a much greater cost and burden on the nation's and states' unemployment programs and systems. Also, potential employment terminations would have likely led to losses of hospitalization and health insurance for many workers, greatly increasing issues and risks to them and their families' health and welfare. It likely would also have vastly increased the number of people then seeking coverage and assistance under the government subsidized health programs available, and greatly increased the workload and expense borne by that system as well.

At least our government did something to try and help keep businesses open, workers employed and still getting paid, and the U.S. economy from possibly being upended. There clearly are many people and businesses who lucked out when they weren't affected as badly by Covid as many in our government initially feared. There are also clearly people and businesses who did NOT follow the rules or meet the specific conditions necessary to obtain these PPP loans, and forgiveness of them. And those in this latter group should be investigated and prosecuted where deserving.

But to question, put down, chastise, and/or denigrate those people whose businesses ended up not being as badly affected by the pandemic as may have initially been thought, and/or who maybe earned that extra profit by working harder and being more flexible and resilient in how they were able to keep their businesses going and their workers employed during the pandemic, is simply ludicrous and ignorant. Just like questioning what someone decides to spend money they honestly and legally earned on. That is their business, not really anyone else's. Would people make the same comments/questions about say someone talking/bragging about how they went and bought a T206 red Cobb with the money they got from their EV (electric vehicle) credit on their tax return, or would they normally just simply congratulate them on their good fortune and their pickup? Because in the end, it is basically just the same thing as the PPP loans, a government program/policy set up to benefit people/businesses so as to influence them to act in a certain way.

I remember that one.

I can't stand Sports Card Radio. Every video they put out is either an outright lie or intentional misrepresentation of the facts. I can't imagine this one is any different. And everything they create is negative content. All they do is sh*t on others and sh*t on the hobby. Don't feed the trolls.

I got all the crackers we need to have a net54 wine and cheese party now

As someone who personally secured hundreds of PPP loans for their clients, there is something to remember… when the program first came out, NO ONE truly understood it fully or knew what to expect. The second round is a different story, but the first time it was absolute madness. I was getting 1000+ emails a day from scared business owners who thought this would be the only chance to save their businesses. Did many get it who didn’t truly need it? Certainly. But I saw it save so many small businesses that I have no hate for it, even though many chose to abuse it.

I work with a ton of banks and I knew several banks that were working 24/7 with random employees processing loans. No review process, just processing paperwork. It was a crazy time and certainly no surprise in any of the impact.

I'm not a lawyer but I have to wonder if the content of those videos wouldn't open up SCR to law suits that would result in shutting down SCR and then some.

Is there another spin on this that people should know? If someone knows of a rebuttal video, post the link. I don't usually watch this garbage, because I don't have time, but I'd take a few minutes to see a rebuttal.

Here’s Geoff Wilson’s rebuttal:

https://youtu.be/w9imjd-Syec

And here’s a counter rebuttal ( by a lawyer and marketing person) to Wilson’s rebuttal:

https://youtu.be/Jw6qE0ezikI

$1000 ppp loan? Why bother? I don't really trust either of these guys?

The fact people like Geoff Wilson are considered “Prominent hobby figures” annoys me almost as much as PPP loans being misused.

the last few years "created" a new hobby within the hobby...the hobby of investing in the hobby...using real time data, creating "indexes" of cards just like financial investment vehicles. This is what the newer "investor" has clamored for...and Wilson has given it to them.

I have no idea who most of these people dominating the modern hobby news are. I feel like Mr. Jones in the Dylan song.

They wouldn't be shut down, but they could be sued for damages.

The index is nothing new. Joe Orlando had an index based on the top 100 cards many years ago, the SMR 100 or something like that. I think Brent has had them for some time too.

I feel like most collectors are numb to this sort of "news".

hi fred hope so man guys a bully

peter lol great line man

Mr. Jones will never know what's going on, and at the moment neither do I.

Like calling out PWCC’s fraud, right?

SCR reads out the letters from lawyers threatening them on their show and posts them on their website. Goldin is threatening them now for reporting on an affidavit filed that makes him look really bad, but these threats never go anywhere because it’s only slander or libel if it’s false. Their response is usually a profane letter back to the attorney telling them to go and do it. These two guys are obnoxious and clickbaity but the information checks out, they have the documentation and carefully state what is known fact and what is not yet certain but has evidence pointing to it. A lot of their stuff just comes from affidavits and other public records and the blowout detectives. People throw a fit, but they keep turning out correct, from PWCC to the Panini Kaboom scandal.

Example: https://www.sportscardradio.com/ken-...ts-card-radio/

i could care less about these bullies

Goldin, or SCR?

Yeah, their style is painful but they bring the goods.

The most wanted list and the nicknames are priceless.

Could or could not?

And which bullies? Those that shill bid and sell altered cards as authentic? Or those who obnoxiously call them out?

I struggle to make it through an 8 minute video, it’s really geared to the clickbait drama focused young crowd and that’s just not for me. I ain’t their demographic they target. But anyone who’s correctly and factually calling out scammers, from small breakers to big boys like PWCC is doing good. Most of their competition is focused on denying the scandals and frauds instead.

Agreed 100 pct

Fixed it for you.

The thing that bothers me the most about this whole PPP business (and to echo what was said by a previous poster), is the fact that many were using the money for nefarious means. I have zero issues with the businesses that used the money as intended, to keep their small businesses afloat, but using it to buy cards or luxury items should have come with repercussions.

The free money given out by the government was an issue as well. Too many people qualified for the stimulus checks. For frame of reference both of my parents received checks. They're both retired and did more than well enough in their careers to not need this money. Hell I received a stimulus check and I have a decently paying career.

Worst of all is many of the vintage cards whose value was bumped up by the pandemic, and will never come down. To preface what I'm about to say, I'm very happy for everyone, that their collection grew in monetary value, I hold nothing against you. When collecting on a budget, you save a little bit of money to the side for your purchases. A 1952 Mantle in an Authentic or 1 went from a "somewhat realistic possibility in a few years with saving" to "Not a shot in hell until I retire" because the card almost tripled in value. Thankfully, collecting is a journey, but damn can it be disheartening at times.

Ha, very accurate.

So glad I'm just a life long collector and don't give 2 shits about value in my cards.. That dude in the vid looks like he might have an aneurysm..

First of all, the basic dictionary definition of "nefarious" is typically some action or activity that is wicked or criminal. So, are you saying that someone whose business ended up profiting more than expected due to their eligibility for receiving a PPP loan, and then using that additional profit to go out and buy say a '52 Topps Mantle card, was doing something "wicked" or "criminal" as a result?

Secondly, in regards to "free money" given out to many who ended up not necessarily needing it, you also referred to it using the term "stimulus money". In addition to providing support and relief to individuals and businesses in need, I always thought the additional or secondary purpose of these loans and other payments was in fact to get excess money in people's hands so they would end up spending it on things they may not have otherwise, so as to actually be a stimulant to our overall economy and help keep it from tanking in the midst of the pandemic. You actually refer to it as "stimulus money", but then seem to denigrate some of those people and businesses that used and spent it as the government fully intended, to help stimulate and maintain our economy.

The people/businesses that should be chastised, investigated, and prosecuted where applicable, are those that lied about their eligibility for and/or otherwise falsified their applications for PPP loans, or their subsequent requests and filings for PPP loan forgiveness.

"Knock, knock, knockin' on libel's door..."

- Bob(ish) Dylan

It's not libel when they are quoting affidavits. It's not libel when there is a mountain of evidence of trimming. It's not libel when it's true. Which is why nobody actually files these suits much less win.

File suit.

I get slandered, libeled
I hear words I never heard in the Bible

Lol now thats funny

Am I the only one who misses Hauls of Shame? I know he was a scumbag, and his vendetta against Leon was odd and pathetic, but he did point some sh*t out.

In my book, with so much dirt, fraud and theft running rampant, anyone who is factually correct and following a proper evidentiary basis to call out the guilty is doing a good in that action (though they may be wrong for other things, like Nash having committed fraud himself). Hauls of Shame appeared to be factually correct about a ton of frauds of thefts people didn’t want to talk about or acknowledge. I don’t know what Nash is up to now.

confession
 

I have a confession to make...I took a PPP loan to pay for my very expensive furry p*rn collection...featuring Jerry Nadler...Jerry

I have to wonder how many independent contractors, say real estate agents, who applied and received PPP loans used them wisely. If was to buy peanut butter, bread and milk just to survive, then good on them.

You're not. Whatever his baggage, Nash pointed out A LOT of stuff that needed exposing.

Believe me, I get it. From anybody else, I couldn't either. No clue how I'm able to tolerate their videos. Maybe it's that they target Ken Goldin.

He's one of the biggest criminals that has never been held as accountable as he should be. Hopefully, his day will still come, if it hasn't already. Dude has to have some really, really bad karma. IF I recall, he plead the 5th in court over 100 times, as to where a lot of his phony memorabilia came from. His phony memorabilia and his site, were a lot of made up tabloid trash mixed with a tiny bit of truth...kind of like 1+1 = 4 Siding with someone like that, really says something.

As for PPP, one of my best friends took 100k because he said they were just giving it out, all you had to do is apply. He is wealthy and his business did just as well through covid. That was a great program....

.

While it is a bit tough to sit through the SCR video, I don't think we'll see an actual lawsuit coming from what they're saying about others on it as long as there is at last some factual information or circumstances to back up what they are saying. Threatening a lawsuit is just that, simply a baseless threat, until someone actually files a suit. And even then, that can just be an attempt to make the threat more real. The plaintiff can always drop the suit whenever they like. However, actually going through and filing and going forward with a case and taking it to trial can lead to a plaintiff possibly having to get on a witness stand and be willing to then answer some questions under oath. Somehow, I don't think the owners of any parties that SCR may be calling out would want themselves, or any of their employees, sitting on a witness stand and subject to perjury charges in regard to questions they might then get asked.

To be aware a lot of fraud and supporting evidence was revealed by someone does not mean one is “siding” with that person or that one even approves of that person. He was a fraudster himself.

Reminds me of the saying...

"It takes one to know one!"

Full disclosure: Not referring to G1911 being one.

It seems most criminals in the hobby have not been and will not be held accountable. Not sure Nash is anything special in that regard.

https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/pp...ppening-today/


https://chicago.suntimes.com/2022/12...s-zuber-lawler


https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...9/69712456007/

I was totally oblivious to all the crud going on and all the "drama" in the social media platforms. I took about an hour to watch a few videos and see just how animated some of the video commentators can be.

It's almost impossible to figure out where the lies end and the truth begins. One thing is for certain, there's a lot of finger pointing and insults tossed across the platforms.

One thing about the PPP loans is that there could be some truth (more or less, who knows) to the accusations tossed out by SCRadio but for certain, the optics look bad for the SCInvestment guy.

There are so many better things that I can/will do with my time rather than watch the salvos going back and forth.

My main thought is that I can't believe how stupid this is getting and hope all the garbage going on in the hobby doesn't destroy it.

What is going to be really sad/bad is when the knuckleheads start getting physically violent over this and things escalate to the point where someone gets injured or worse.